Personal Woes and Advice 3

[WarKitty]

Suppose you're a guy who has been married 10 years and has two kids. How often should you expect to get lucky?

I'm really not sure this is answerable without going over the board's PG-13 rating.

[Driderman]

Yes I do suffer from clinical depression, now that you mention it. Professional help didn't do squat.

If professional help doesn't alleviate your depression, you're doing it wrong and should try again. You may have been consulting the wrong mental health professional, that happens, but it doesn't mean that mental health care doesn't work.
Although I know it's a lot easier to wallow in ones depression if you've decided nothing works, everything sucks and it's only going to get worse anyway, beforehand. Don't be your own worst enemy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc

[Serpentine]

The last time Skeppio went to see a professional, she said that it helped a lot. I'm not sure why she's changed her tune now, and refuses to try it again. I believe I've picked up a "but it didn't cure me PERMANENTLY!" cry at some point about it, in which case I do not think she gets the point of either therapy nor chronic depression.

Suppose you're a guy who has been married 10 years and has two kids. How often should you expect to get lucky?

As often as both parties are able to find a time where they have the time, peace and right mood, as I understand it. It is also my understanding that dissatisfaction in that regard is best addressed through calm, rational, honest and blameless discussion with the other party.

[rogueboy]

If professional help doesn't alleviate your depression, you're doing it wrong and should try again. You may have been consulting the wrong mental health professional, that happens, but it doesn't mean that mental health care doesn't work.
Although I know it's a lot easier to wallow in ones depression if you've decided nothing works, everything sucks and it's only going to get worse anyway, beforehand. Don't be your own worst enemy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc

Minor quibble with your phrasing (which I suspect you just overlooked, Drider): it's not that Skeppio has done anything wrong, it's that whatever was done last time just didn't match up with what she needs.

Also, I'm remembering the same comments as Serp: that a professional helped a lot while you were seeing them, Skeppio, but (as I recall) you and/or the therapist decided to end it when you were "better". The problem is that old habits die hard, and it's easy to fall back into old routines that lead you back where you came from.

[WarKitty]

One more thing: When I *do* express that I feel like I'm going into a bad situation, I feel again like I get dismissed. I'm just being silly, paranoid, whatever.

It feels like a trap. I seem to get into bad situations repeatedly, somehow. But I can't find anyone who will address *that* problem with me. Mostly I get a repeated mantra of the world isn't that bad, you don't have to go looking over your shoulder all the time, and so on. Tell you what - my world is that bad and I've got the stories to prove it. You want to tell me that's not most people's world around here? Fine. But I want some coherent explanation for why my world is different and what I'm supposed to do about it. Not a constant push to suppress all my instincts because they don't match the world other people live in.

Edit: And double all of this when you're dealing with young men. Because, sorry, at that point we don't live in the same world on some of the issues that are relevant here.

[dehro]

Suppose you're a guy who has been married 10 years and has two kids. How often should you expect to get lucky?

According to Al Bundy, as little as possible. But I think that's a shoe-salesman thing.

Then again, your username is onionbreath..

On a more serious note, if this is an issue, you really should sit down and have a calm and constructive conversation about it with the wife, to see why things are as they are, what the cause is, whether it's something you can work on together or alone, whether there are ways around it that you can both agree to experiment with etc etc.
It's kinda hard to keep this constructive yet pg-rated, but conversation and open sharing of needs, feelings, issues and possibly insecurities is a big part of any solution.
Subtlety and one-sided approaches hardly ever work

[Chen]

It feels like a trap. I seem to get into bad situations repeatedly, somehow. But I can't find anyone who will address *that* problem with me. Mostly I get a repeated mantra of the world isn't that bad, you don't have to go looking over your shoulder all the time, and so on. Tell you what - my world is that bad and I've got the stories to prove it. You want to tell me that's not most people's world around here? Fine. But I want some coherent explanation for why my world is different and what I'm supposed to do about it. Not a constant push to suppress all my instincts because they don't match the world other people live in.

This is probably because no one has an answer for you on WHY bad things are happening. They are trying to make you feel better about how these things are "rare" and how things will get better.

[Kalmageddon]

Suppose you're a guy who has been married 10 years and has two kids. How often should you expect to get lucky?

As a guy who has never been with the same woman for more then a few months, I have no idea. But my gut feeling would be "as much as it makes you feel satisfied".
Talk about it and all that mature stuff, maybe there's something you can do about it.

[WarKitty]

This is probably because no one has an answer for you on WHY bad things are happening. They are trying to make you feel better about how these things are "rare" and how things will get better.

It doesn't help though. It just makes me feel invalidated. And it means I end up in more bad situations because I get so much pressure to not be "paranoid" when I say sonething's not right.

[bluewind95]

WarKitty, I don't mean to be presumptuous here, but... I find it very telling what you said a while ago about you having "a giant 'vulnerable' sign" on you.

Maybe you do, in a way. A lot of people who've had major troubles or been victimized, etc, do learn to act the part. And that gives us a major "HEY. I AM A TARGET" kind of sign. A lot of it has to do with body language and the way we deal with a crisis. Maybe it's worth a shot to look into body language (it's the best place to start, because it's the main thing we communicate with, as 80% of communication is non-verbal), and try to change yours. If you're communicating a different way, that's got to change the way people react to you, which seems to be the major harbinger of trouble for you, with their denying you the things you need, and their stepping on your boundaries, etc.

See if you can look into a book about body language (the one I recommend is "What Every Body is Saying") and start with that. Then maybe look into alternate ways to deal with a crisis. It's worth a shot.

[The Fury]

It doesn't help though. It just makes me feel invalidated. And it means I end up in more bad situations because I get so much pressure to not be "paranoid" when I say sonething's not right.

For what it is worth, I don't think it sounds like you're being paranoid. Not really. Maybe these situations you find yourself in don't generally happen often, though that's immaterial because you do find yourself in them and the fact that they don't happen often can't be much comfort. I guess that's just what a string of bad luck does to a person, enough bad luck and I'd probably be afraid of it happening to me too.

[sktarq]

WarKitty, I don't mean to be presumptuous here, but... I find it very telling what you said a while ago about you having "a giant 'vulnerable' sign" on you. ... It's worth a shot.

THIS. QFT and all that jazz. (Chicago-shatup and go back to sleep). I was catching up on the tread and had figured out what I was going to say but bluewind got to the idea first. People give out all sorts of often conflicting information all the time in their body language, facial expressions, tone, word choice etc. You may be saying that you want to be treated like a responsible adult if your inflection and eye contact patterns are mimicking a child they will treat you like a child without even realizing what they are doing. Body language is probably the easiest place to start so I'd second bluewind's recommendation on that. Also people rationalize decisions as much as make them based on evidence. If you trip any "Treat me like a victim" switches in people's brains they will often go on that-aggressors will pick on you over other people and "white knight" types will treat you like a child. Sadly "paranoia" can be one of these cues. Also since I don't know or your situation I'm not making judgments or telling you that you are acting "wrong" but if you are the common denominator in a statistically improbable number of cases of attempted victimization it is worth looking in to if you accidentally attracting these improbable events.

[WarKitty]

I'm definitely willing to look into such things. Although it doesn't help that I frequently get told I look like I'm in high school. Even in business attire. But it's frustrating that I can't find anyone who will really work with me on that, and my attempts on my own seem to increase the problem.

Also, white knight types are the worst.

[bluewind95]

I'm definitely willing to look into such things. Although it doesn't help that I frequently get told I look like I'm in high school. Even in business attire. But it's frustrating that I can't find anyone who will really work with me on that, and my attempts on my own seem to increase the problem.

Also, white knight types are the worst.

Get that book I told you. And a mirror. That sounds like a good first start to me. Or hey, if you find another book that suits you, that''ll work too. I went to a Barnes & Noble once and they had plenty of books on body language.

Being told you look younger is indeed frustrating (and somehow people seem to think it's flattering towards women). Body language can worsen that perception, as does style. Anything from the hair to the make-up you use to the expression you use will do it. Perhaps you can find a good stylist and tell them you want to look older and they'll give you a haircut that'll complement your style while making you look older. But even if you're also cursed with looking younger than you are (I'm told I could pass for a 17-year-old when I'm really almost 30), you can have people take you seriously with the proper body language and tone (the body language will help you with the first parts of your tone. Afterwards, you can use a recorder and a mirror to experiment yourself).

[WarKitty]

Get that book I told you. And a mirror. That sounds like a good first start to me. Or hey, if you find another book that suits you, that''ll work too. I went to a Barnes & Noble once and they had plenty of books on body language.

Being told you look younger is indeed frustrating (and somehow people seem to think it's flattering towards women). Body language can worsen that perception, as does style. Anything from the hair to the make-up you use to the expression you use will do it. Perhaps you can find a good stylist and tell them you want to look older and they'll give you a haircut that'll complement your style while making you look older. But even if you're also cursed with looking younger than you are (I'm told I could pass for a 17-year-old when I'm really almost 30), you can have people take you seriously with the proper body language and tone (the body language will help you with the first parts of your tone. Afterwards, you can use a recorder and a mirror to experiment yourself).

Could work. This is an escalation of the same situation I was complaining about on page 5-6 of this same thread. I had forgotten I had posted that, but I was complaining about dealing with someone treating me like a child, and having trouble with my own thoughts/feelings. Which also reminds me of my own sense of the ridiculousness of the situation - who tells a grown woman "look at me when I'm talking to you"?

Ugh. This is bringing back a lot of complicated stuff. Partly because it seems like it's so hard to figure out being a victim in a society that often doesn't want to accept that, being in a place where the people that *do* know an accept it often treat you like you're broken permanently, but if they don't know any symptoms are treated like you're just stupid...realizing that somewhere along the line you've never really learned how to function as an adult, that you've had a nice handful of therapists mess things up further and not one that would actually listen and help instead of repeating trite advice...just, ugh.

[zlefin]

Sounds tough. I wonder if something drill-sergeanty would help?
It's hard to assess body language over the internet, which makes it a lot harder to try to help with that; but i'm pretty sure some sort of coaches for that must exist.
Society does tend to have difficulties in how it deals with people sometimes; I've heard of cancer patients having a related issue, people always tiptoe-ing around them or treating them unusual; instead of just being treated normal.

[The Fury]

OK, I've been really hesitant to ask for help just because it's always been hard for me to tell how much information is too much. Because of this I always feel like apologizing whenever I talk about myself-- I've started calling this my "nobody cares!" filter.

For a long time I've noticed a pattern in my relationships-- I keep feeling like I'm little more than a stand in for someone better. Whether it's a job or a romantic partnership, I keep feeling like the person I'm with would prefer it I were someone else. I'm not saying that it's necessarily true but I keep thinking, fearing that it is.

A more recent problem is that I'm so used to things being my fault that I don't know what to do when something isn't. And I know that sounds selfish, because it is.

I feel like my "nobody cares!" filter is my real problem though. I keep feeling sad and feeling like it's not OK to feel sad. Because... well... have you ever had it happen where the conversations that were critical of your personality were the ones that you remember the most?

I remember when I was young my mother telling me that I should try to be happy until I was. I remember a friend in high school that I needed to be happy or no one would like me. I remember when I told my friend that I suffered from depression she explained to me that it was very hurtful to talk about it so casually.

So now I feel sad, I feel that it's not OK for me to feel sad, I feel like I can't talk about it to anyone. I don't know what to do.

[eidreff]

Where to start...?!?!?! Happiness begins inside you. you cannot be happy with other unless you know and are happy with yourself. You are not to blame for everything. S*** happens and often it is beyond your control. Don't beat yourself up over the uncontrollable, that is life. However take control of what you can, your future is yours and yours alone to map. The trap of be happy for others sounds like a bad Victorian novel. Avoid! find what you like (this may take some searching, I am into my third decade and still haven't found what I want to do). Do stuff, even if all around you think you are insane for doing so.

It's not your fault. You are taking blame for others, or their faults. You are bigger than this, everyone is. It is hard, but take a deep breath and reject the blame, it ain't you!


apologies for the rant.

Nil carborundum Illegitmi.... (waiting to be corrected on my pig latin)

EDIT: that was not meant as criticism, I do not know your history, but through mine have learnt that an attitude of "dammit I did my best, you don't like it stuff you" has saved my sanity. Growl more, be more bear!

[Moriwen]

So now I feel sad, I feel that it's not OK for me to feel sad, I feel like I can't talk about it to anyone. I don't know what to do.

I think this is a very common feeling that goes along with depression.

Personal anecdote: On my very first meeting with my therapist, she asked me what I would change about my life if I could wave a magic wand and change anything. I literally couldn't think of anything. I felt guilty about that for years -- how could I be sad when there wasn't anything wrong with my life? So many people I knew were going through horrible stuff, I had it great, but I was still sad.

The point is (forgive my bluntness): this is wrong. It's the depression talking. Your mom and friend who told you that you had to be happy were either clueless or deeply unkind. It's like telling someone with a broken leg "stop hurting" -- it's not going to do any good, obviously.

So none of that is actual suggestions or anything, but maybe it helps to hear it from an objective third party. You are not "wrong" to feel sad, any more than someone with a chronic pain disorder is wrong to hurt despite the fact that they're not injured. You're hurting, and that's OK.

As for actual advice, this is obvious, but are you seeing a therapist or counselor of any kind? If you want to talk to someone (which is a very healthy thing to want!), it's probably the best choice, since your family doesn't sound very supportive. They can also help provide you with a reality check on worries like the ones you mention.

[The Fury]

Let me just start off by saying that I'm not trying to rebuff you or anything. I'd just like to see if I can talk... er... type my personal issues out. You seem like the sort that would understand, but I'm neurotic enough that I feel I need a disclaimer.

Where to start...?!?!?! Happiness begins inside you. you cannot be happy with other unless you know and are happy with yourself.

I know this all too well. I've actually been celibate for years now, and I still haven't figured out how to be happy with myself. I keep feeling like if I can make other people happy, I can be happy too. I've tried telling jokes or funny stories, doing weird drawings for people and I've at least been able to get people to laugh. Except when I'm in a slump and I can't think of anything funny or draw I just feel like I've lost my entire sense of purpose.

You are not to blame for everything. S*** happens and often it is beyond your control. Don't beat yourself up over the uncontrollable, that is life. However take control of what you can, your future is yours and yours alone to map. The trap of be happy for others sounds like a bad Victorian novel. Avoid! find what you like (this may take some searching, I am into my third decade and still haven't found what I want to do). Do stuff, even if all around you think you are insane for doing so.

It's not your fault. You are taking blame for others, or their faults. You are bigger than this, everyone is. It is hard, but take a deep breath and reject the blame, it ain't you!

The really obnoxious part? I know. I know that everything can't be my fault. In spite of what I've written a lot of my friends are great people and they've told me that I shouldn't blame myself for everything. I do it anyway and I don't know how to stop. Maybe it's one of those emotional problems that's difficult to intellectualize away? Just to clarify, it's not just about being happy for other people, though that's a part of it too. In the last case of my friend telling me about how I shouldn't call myself a depression sufferer, it was actually because she herself suffered from it too. She thought by saying that I suffered from depression she thought I meant, "I'm feeling a little sad." See, depression is serious and painful enough that using the term so casually is hurtful. Part of the reason why I don't feel like I can talk to anyone is because I'm so ashamed of how I feel.

apologies for the rant.

Nil carborundum Illegitmi.... (waiting to be corrected on my pig latin)

EDIT: that was not meant as criticism, I do not know your history, but through mine have learnt that an attitude of "dammit I did my best, you don't like it stuff you" has saved my sanity. Growl more, be more bear!

Please, don't feel like you need to apologize to me. I realize that you're not criticizing me and I do appreciate that you're being helpful and blameless about all this.

By the way, "Iay hinktay hattay asway oday atinlay."

[zlefin]

I concur, see a therapist, and discuss options: therapy, drugs, other.
you can always talk to a therapist; that's what they're paid for.
Clergy often serve a similar purpose as well.

Feeling sad when there's no reason to be sad is an anomaly; and many anomalies are treatable.
I don't know whether it's psychological or neurological; but there's a lot of medications out there, some of which work very well for some people.
Changing viewpoints can be beneficial. I tend to view mental anomalies as software glitches; it reduces the feel of something "wrong" that sometimes attaches to mental stuff. Just pesky glitches that happen, like computers often have.

There might be some good mantras you could use to help.

As to what to do when you're not at fault: that's complex as it depends on situation; but generally, informing the party at fault, and informing their superior or an appropriate authority are decent options. There's techniques for how to have those discussions effectively, but I don't know them well myself.

[The Fury]

I think this is a very common feeling that goes along with depression.

Personal anecdote: On my very first meeting with my therapist, she asked me what I would change about my life if I could wave a magic wand and change anything. I literally couldn't think of anything. I felt guilty about that for years -- how could I be sad when there wasn't anything wrong with my life? So many people I knew were going through horrible stuff, I had it great, but I was still sad.

I've felt like this too. If I could change anything at all about my life what would it be? What would make me happy? I've had therapists ask me stuff like this, every time I sit there trying to think of something. Then I usually start crying.

The point is (forgive my bluntness): this is wrong. It's the depression talking. Your mom and friend who told you that you had to be happy were either clueless or deeply unkind. It's like telling someone with a broken leg "stop hurting" -- it's not going to do any good, obviously.

To my mother's credit, when she told me that I was maybe eight years old. There's just assumptions that are generally made about people have depression, one of them is that depression is something adults have. I guess eight is way too young or something. As for my friend, she knew that not many people liked me and I think she was trying to help me make friends. I guess that doesn't really change how insensitive I found it though.

So none of that is actual suggestions or anything, but maybe it helps to hear it from an objective third party. You are not "wrong" to feel sad, any more than someone with a chronic pain disorder is wrong to hurt despite the fact that they're not injured. You're hurting, and that's OK.

As for actual advice, this is obvious, but are you seeing a therapist or counselor of any kind? If you want to talk to someone (which is a very healthy thing to want!), it's probably the best choice, since your family doesn't sound very supportive. They can also help provide you with a reality check on worries like the ones you mention.

Actually, it is helpful to hear that feeling like this isn't because of some failure as a person on my part. I have sought counseling before, but it's been hard for me to stay with it because I have trouble keeping a job and I always feel nervous about starting it again. The really sick thing is that I think I could talk to my family about it if I really wanted to, though my mother tends to blame herself for doing something wrong as a parent and I don't want to hang that on her. As for my sister... well, I guess we have a hard time talking to each other about stuff like this.

[Proud Tortoise]

Spoiler

Show

I'm jealous of almost everyone. Especially people I like.

Not of anything in particular. I just want to be them. Or really, to have any life other than mine.

Not that it's a particularly bad life. Pretty good as lives go. Well, nothing quantifiable anyway.

I'm not sure why I feel this way. I want to be everything. Brown-haired, black-haired. Interested in sports. Good at social interactions. Asian. Good at drawing. Bad at math. Homosexual. Female. Knowledgeable about anime. Missing an arm, even. Even if I don't like it I still want to be it. I think this is a bit strange.

[zlefin]

I've felt like this too. If I could change anything at all about my life what would it be? What would make me happy? I've had therapists ask me stuff like this, every time I sit there trying to think of something. Then I usually start crying.

What you would change is to simply be happy. You aren't unhappy because there's anything wrong with your life, you're simply unhappy.


related to the set point theory (which is a hypothesis at this point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positiv...ness_Set_Point

it could be like you simply have a setpoint at a terribly low point.

exercise can help sometimes.

[The Fury]

What you would change is to simply be happy. You aren't unhappy because there's anything wrong with your life, you're simply unhappy.


related to the set point theory (which is a hypothesis at this point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positiv...ness_Set_Point

it could be like you simply have a setpoint at a terribly low point.

exercise can help sometimes.

Now that you mention it, I think I'd rather that happiness was easier to hold onto. I have been happy, I have found things that make me happy it's just... eventually I find that happiness slipping away or the thing I found happiness in just isn't there anymore.

I hadn't heard of set point theory, thanks for showing it to me. For a while now I've had concern that I might be bipolar.

[WarKitty]

Sounds tough. I wonder if something drill-sergeanty would help?
It's hard to assess body language over the internet, which makes it a lot harder to try to help with that; but i'm pretty sure some sort of coaches for that must exist.
Society does tend to have difficulties in how it deals with people sometimes; I've heard of cancer patients having a related issue, people always tiptoe-ing around them or treating them unusual; instead of just being treated normal.

What I've heard has been acting lessons. Maybe I'll look into that at some point. Right now money is just too tight. Might be a better shot than therapy has been.

That's one thing I really hate. I hear so much how you're supposed to be in therapy. But it's just caused so many problems for me. And I keep hearing that you're supposed to keep trying until you find the right fit, but...how can you when it messes things up so much?

[Driderman]

What I've heard has been acting lessons. Maybe I'll look into that at some point. Right now money is just too tight. Might be a better shot than therapy has been.

That's one thing I really hate. I hear so much how you're supposed to be in therapy. But it's just caused so many problems for me. And I keep hearing that you're supposed to keep trying until you find the right fit, but...how can you when it messes things up so much?

I'm curious how therapy messes things up so much. Therapy isn't necessary a warm and coddling experience where you're told everything is going to be alright or other such platitudes, therapy is often difficult and full of uncomfortable realizations, doubt and other nasty stuff as you begin to work through your issues.
A good therapist isn't there to tell you that you're a great person and everything is going to be alright, a good therapist is there to make you realize that you're currently not necessarily a good person and that everything won't necessarily be alright, but at the same time a good therapist provides you the tools needed to work with those realizations so you yourself can make things better.

[FinnLassie]

I'm curious how therapy messes things up so much. Therapy isn't necessary a warm and coddling experience where you're told everything is going to be alright or other such platitudes, therapy is often difficult and full of uncomfortable realizations, doubt and other nasty stuff as you begin to work through your issues.
A good therapist isn't there to tell you that you're a great person and everything is going to be alright, a good therapist is there to make you realize that you're currently not necessarily a good person and that everything won't necessarily be alright, but at the same time a good therapist provides you the tools needed to work with those realizations so you yourself can make things better.

I completely agree with this. When I was in therapy I hit the biggest lows I've ever had in my life, but therapy was also something that managed to help me up from that gutter. Now, this is my personal experience, and what I always will remind people is that me and my therapist had a very warm relationship between us, they were my first therapist and it was easy to work with them. I rarely hear stories like I had with my therapist. So many people I know have gone through several therapists before they've found 1) the right type of therapy and 2) the right type of therapist.

[Serpentine]

Uh... Guys, WarKitty has repeatedly had therapists ignore her, behave completely immorally, break patient confidentiality and accuse her of attacking them for calmly informing them that no, they did not have her consent, and that's just what I remember. I agree that she should try again, ideally with advice from others on who's good and who's not, but she has some very, very good reasons to be wary of them that have nothing to do with wanting to be "coddled" and everything to do with the fact that all of the multiple one's she's had in the past have ranged from useless to actively damaging her life and her mental wellbeing.
IIRC

[zlefin]

Well, forum rules and being over the internet limit our ability to do the therapy work ourselves.

It's also very unusual for therapists to behave THAT badly. I've seen some that I feel are useless, but that's a far cry from damaging. It's also quite odd for several to all be bad, unless they're all part of the same institution.

Also: were those therapists reported for their actions? There's professional review boards and various other authorities that complaints can be reported to, as well as media outlets.


re: TheFury what would make you think you're bipolar?