[PF/DSP] Dreamscarred Press announces ToB-inspired product II: The Rematch

[ErrantX]

Honestly, the current Paizo archetypes are kind of a mess. I am going to try my best to make it so at least SOME of each class' archetypes are compatible with PoW archetypes.

-X

[Beowulf DW]

Honestly, the current Paizo archetypes are kind of a mess. I am going to try my best to make it so at least SOME of each class' archetypes are compatible with PoW archetypes.

-X

I appreciate your efforts, yet I do not envy them in the slightest. They really are a bit of a mess. Unless you use that chart on one of the threads here.

[Greenish]

Eh, I'd rather wakizashi and katana, less penalty for only on average 1 point of damage less.

-X

Well, that'd require taking Emulate Melee Weapon twice, for a soulknife (if you wanted the crit range).

And since Piranha Strike doesn't work with one-handed weapons, using an one-hander and a light weapon adds a bit of MAD. So, yay for everyone using paired wakizashis?

I appreciate your efforts, yet I do not envy them in the slightest. They really are a bit of a mess. Unless you use that chart on one of the threads here.

This one?

[Vanitas]

Well, that'd require taking Emulate Melee Weapon twice, for a soulknife (if you wanted the crit range).

And since Piranha Strike doesn't work with one-handed weapons, using an one-hander and a light weapon adds a bit of MAD. So, yay for everyone using paired wakizashis?

Can you even take Emulate Melee Weapon twice?

[Greenish]

Can you even take Emulate Melee Weapon twice?

Yes: "This blade skill may be taken multiple times; each time, it allows the soulknife to form her mind blade to replicate a different melee weapon."

[Lord_Gareth]

So, Ssalarn brought up something pretty interesting on the Paizo thread with regards to humanoid opponents and weapon-dependency on the part of initiators. I'd like to ask:

1. Is this consistent with your observations?

2. Is weapon dependency consistent with your observations? How hurt are initiators by having to fall back on unarmed strikes? What about a backup weapon such as a dagger?

3. Does it matter if the weapon you're holding is magical/mundane?

[Beowulf DW]

This one?

That's the one.

Edit: and it looks like Titan Mauler can't combine with anything.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very pleased to announce the release of the Quills and their associated discipline Cursed Razor. Razor's my very first full discipline and I'm pretty nervous about letting it out into the wild; lemme know where the problems are so I can get them fixed up.

Follow this link to see the servants of Whisper.

[Greenish]

Hmm, Save vs. Skill check seems slightly out of place, since most maneuvers use the simple (10 + maneuver level + 1/2 stat) formula. Doesn't using skill check make the save DCs a bit too high?

[Lord_Gareth]

Hmm, Save vs. Skill check seems slightly out of place, since most maneuvers use the simple (10 + maneuver level + 1/2 stat) formula. Doesn't using skill check make the save DCs a bit too high?

That...maaaaay be a feature and not a bug >.>

In all seriousness I had to incorporate Spellcraft into a specific number of maneuvers to keep the discipline in line with some of the others and I was wracking my brain trying to figure it out, so I ended up tagging that onto Huntsman's Curse. The save DC will be pretty high but on the other hand it's already a nerfed version of slow, so I thiiiink it works out okay. Hopefully?

[Greenish]

Bad Karma (2nd level) also uses skill. And having two separate ways of determining save DCs for stuff from the same discipline seems like an unnecessary complication.

Also, the default wording is "primary initiator attribute modifier", for whatever reason.

[Lord_Gareth]

Bad Karma (2nd level) also uses skill. And having two separate ways of determining save DCs for stuff from the same discipline seems like an unnecessary complication.

Aye...that'll need to get fixed, then. I may leave it on Huntsman's just b/c Nerfed Slow but I'll look into fixing that on Bad Karma/Warlock's Stride.

Also, the default wording is "primary initiator attribute modifier", for whatever reason.

This one I might try to get changed >.> It's not a 'caster' attribute modifier, it's a 'casting' attribute modifier, after all.

[Greenish]

This one I might try to get changed >.> It's not a 'caster' attribute modifier, it's a 'casting' attribute modifier, after all.

While you're at it, a shorter, snappier term would be welcome. "Primary initiator/initiation attribute modifier" is a mouthful.

[Lord_Gareth]

DCs fixed.

[Greenish]

It's weird that a technique taught by Devils (the Black Seraph) for the purposes of opposing Chaos deals half damage to Demons and Slaads.

Actually, the whole idea that "Evil deals half damage vs. Evil or Neutral" is odd, and the reverse is also a bit tricky.

[ErrantX]

It's weird that a technique taught by Devils (the Black Seraph) for the purposes of opposing Chaos deals half damage to Demons and Slaads.

Actually, the whole idea that "Evil deals half damage vs. Evil or Neutral" is odd, and the reverse is also a bit tricky.

I was looking at effects like holy smite and weapon qualities like unholy or anarchic with how they do differing damage amounts to alignments and such. Suggestions?

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

I was looking at effects like holy smite and weapon qualities like unholy or anarchic with how they do differing damage amounts to alignments and such. Suggestions?

-X

Personally I'd let Alignment Disciplines do increased (+50%?) damage to the appropriate alignment, with no such bonus vs. other alignments. That sells the idea and gives a reason to take the disc still (since against, say, Good beings Black Seraph is now better than, oh, Scarlet Throne) without making it suddenly worse either. Seraph and its brethren follow the normal bonus damage progression for strikes and the like as far as I can see so it's not like you have to compensate for them dealing unusually high amounts of damage.

The thing about effects like holy smite or axiomatic is that they're super-duper optional. You can prep another spell instead of Smite, you buy a weapon to kill chaotic beings if you expect to fight a lot of chaotic beings. Disciplines are a for-life character commitment that can't be changed in the morning so they're a bit of a Bigger Deal, yeah?

[Greenish]

I was looking at effects like holy smite and weapon qualities like unholy or anarchic with how they do differing damage amounts to alignments and such. Suggestions?

-X

I'd let Seraph do full damage vs. everyone, with Crane maybe doing no damage vs. Good. Maybe tag extra damage vs. alignment on some of the maneuvers where appropriate (Crane already has something to that effect).


How'd the disciplines work against a character that's Good-aligned but with [Evil] subtype (like the famous succubus paladin)?

[Beowulf DW]

So, Ssalarn brought up something pretty interesting on the Paizo thread with regards to humanoid opponents and weapon-dependency on the part of initiators. I'd like to ask:

1. Is this consistent with your observations?

2. Is weapon dependency consistent with your observations? How hurt are initiators by having to fall back on unarmed strikes? What about a backup weapon such as a dagger?

3. Does it matter if the weapon you're holding is magical/mundane?

Didn't see this earlier, so if I may?

I think the person that made that post is exaggerating a bit. While it's true that battle verses humanoids with base class levels tends to be a bit more difficult than usual, I genuinely think that's how it should be. As for combat maneuvers, I will admit that fighting a tripping opponent can be difficult an infuriating for a melee character. The post you linked to mentions Disarm attempts specifically, however there are ways to counter disarming opponents (weapon cords, locked gauntlets, etc.) and keeping a back up weapon is standard practice in my group ever since one of our barbarians got swallowed twice in the same fight (and managed to cut his way out both times...). As long as an initiator is still able to use maneuvers with a back up weapon, he/she isn't out of the fight. They might suffer a slight downturn in effectiveness, but they're not an opponent to be ignored. I've seen the same thing happen with a Magus of mine. I was still able to use spell strike with my dagger, so I was still in the fight.

Barbarians can grab a tree and rage, Paladins can channel the might of the gods into a chair leg, Monks can headbutt you, Inquisitors can Judge you and make that soup bowl a soup bowl of [whateveristickingmeoff]Bane, Magi can use spell strike, and the POW classes can use maneuvers. Yes, they all suffer a slight decrease in effectiveness, but they're still in the fight. Fighters and Rangers on the other hand...

[Novawurmson]

So, Ssalarn brought up something pretty interesting on the Paizo thread with regards to humanoid opponents and weapon-dependency on the part of initiators. I'd like to ask:

1. Is this consistent with your observations?

2. Is weapon dependency consistent with your observations? How hurt are initiators by having to fall back on unarmed strikes? What about a backup weapon such as a dagger?

3. Does it matter if the weapon you're holding is magical/mundane?

1-2. Not really. I'd generally say a Fighter is more screwed if it gets disarmed than an initiator, because the Fighter doesn't have class features, except, say Weapon Training...which mostly requires him to be using his favored weapon. A Warlord or Warder at least is providing buffs to his allies, while the Stalker's abilities can often be used unarmed. However, I would say that humanoids are often more interesting encounters than monsters for OP's reasons.

3. Generally not. The Soulknife explicitly doesn't make specific weapons without the blade skill (which I think has already been discussed), but if you were to make a weapon with, say, Call Weaponry or anything else that allows something to be treated as a specific weapon, I'd say it's good to go.

[Lord_Gareth]

How'd the disciplines work against a character that's Good-aligned but with [Evil] subtype (like the famous succubus paladin)?

Handled by subtype rules - succubus paladin counts as all four alignments and gets tagged by anything that deals bonus damage to any of them.

[Greenish]

Handled by subtype rules - succubus paladin counts as all four alignments and gets tagged by anything that deals bonus damage to any of them.

But not tagged by something that doesn't deal damage to one of them?

[Lord_Gareth]

But not tagged by something that doesn't deal damage to one of them?

Well, that makes it kinda odd. Imagine this for a moment:

"Silver Crane maneuvers deal nonlethal damage to Good-aligned beings."

Plus:

"[MANEUVER NAME] deals 50% additional damage to Evil-aligned beings."

She takes 150% non-lethal damage. The ability itself will say if it calls out an alignment (search for X) or if it excludes an alignment (if X, then Y). Which means that, for example, some of the alignment-blasting spells would exclude her by virtue of her counting as an alignment but others wouldn't.

Yeah it's a mess.

[Greenish]

"Silver Crane maneuvers deal nonlethal damage to Good-aligned beings."

Now that's the way to do it.

[Novawurmson]

I'd also like to add that the Martial Training line of feats is a great way to add some flavor to a boring monster. A few orcs/hobgoblins become deadly with some Golden Lion maneuvers to turn them into a real cohesive fighting force (try giving half them Tactical Strike and half Hunting Party).

[Lord_Gareth]

Announcement: PIAM (Primary Initiation Ability Modifier) has been shortened to IM (Initiation Modifier). Expect changes in documents when we can get around to it ^_^

[Beowulf DW]

Announcement: PIAM (Primary Initiation Ability Modifier) has been shortened to IM (Initiation Modifier). Expect changes in documents when we can get around to it ^_^

Yay efficiency!

[Lord_Gareth]

Didn't see this earlier, so if I may?

I think the person that made that post is exaggerating a bit. While it's true that battle verses humanoids with base class levels tends to be a bit more difficult than usual, I genuinely think that's how it should be. As for combat maneuvers, I will admit that fighting a tripping opponent can be difficult an infuriating for a melee character. The post you linked to mentions Disarm attempts specifically, however there are ways to counter disarming opponents (weapon cords, locked gauntlets, etc.) and keeping a back up weapon is standard practice in my group ever since one of our barbarians got swallowed twice in the same fight (and managed to cut his way out both times...). As long as an initiator is still able to use maneuvers with a back up weapon, he/she isn't out of the fight. They might suffer a slight downturn in effectiveness, but they're not an opponent to be ignored. I've seen the same thing happen with a Magus of mine. I was still able to use spell strike with my dagger, so I was still in the fight.

Barbarians can grab a tree and rage, Paladins can channel the might of the gods into a chair leg, Monks can headbutt you, Inquisitors can Judge you and make that soup bowl a soup bowl of [whateveristickingmeoff]Bane, Magi can use spell strike, and the POW classes can use maneuvers. Yes, they all suffer a slight decrease in effectiveness, but they're still in the fight. Fighters and Rangers on the other hand...

1-2. Not really. I'd generally say a Fighter is more screwed if it gets disarmed than an initiator, because the Fighter doesn't have class features, except, say Weapon Training...which mostly requires him to be using his favored weapon. A Warlord or Warder at least is providing buffs to his allies, while the Stalker's abilities can often be used unarmed. However, I would say that humanoids are often more interesting encounters than monsters for OP's reasons.

3. Generally not. The Soulknife explicitly doesn't make specific weapons without the blade skill (which I think has already been discussed), but if you were to make a weapon with, say, Call Weaponry or anything else that allows something to be treated as a specific weapon, I'd say it's good to go.

Also thanks for this guys, we'll keep it in mind, talk to folks on the Paizo end to see where the perception is coming from.

[Novawurmson]

Just to make sure before: initiation modifier or initiator modifier?

[Lord_Gareth]

Just to make sure before: initiation modifier or initiator modifier?

Initiation modifier.