Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries

[Gnome Alone]

But if DR doesnt have any free will.. then there will not be anything for the fallen to manipulate.

The Fallens corruption is all about manipulating the choices the wearer of the coin takes, and if the wearer cant chose to give up his will in service to the fallen, then the fallen can whisper all it want, it is not going to change anything.

That's the angle I was thinking of. I think there's a line from Harry somewhere about how for a Fallen to impart its shadow and begin the attempt to corrupt the host, the potential host has to touch a Denarius of their own free will. Like, existing Denarians couldn't just smear their coins all over people. You actually have to choose to pick them up.

So whether the avatar of Demonreach was corruptible or not would have to do not with what it chose to do but what it is - and that's a genius loci of a place designed to contain the kind of sick sad bastards the Fallen are, so not it's not bloody likely. Though all bets are off if the thing does somehow have free will.

The biggest problem with this is honestly that Merlin should not sound British..
I honestly cant say how fast the English tongue changes, but from the way that guy speaks, then he honestly should not have been in there for more than.. i dont know.. 50-100 years?
Because else he should have sounded seriously out of place.. or well more so than a British guy in a cave full of eldrich abominations should.

A friend of mine, a wonderful and hyperliterate English major (who now, come to think of it, lives in Chicago), once took a "History of the English Language" class and told me that actual Old English sounded much more like French than it did modern English. It had that Romance language flow to it, before use as a trade language and the adoption/stealin' of like every word it came in contact with clunked it up so much. (I am paraphrasing cuz this was like 12 years ago.) She said they'd learned the Lord's Prayer in Old English and she recited it for me - and yeah, it was flipping incomprehensible. So long story short, I agree.

Of course, it wouldn't exactly be unlike Jim Butcher to go with the iconic image for the sake of style and simplifying matters, so it could totes be Merlin.

Or "Merlyn" - I read The Once and Future King by T.B. White recently, and it's a) so freaking good, and b) existant in this kind of weird mythic time where the characters live a normal human lifespan, but because they are in not historical England but "Merlyn's isle of Gramarye" they also start from the Norman Invasion and end with the War of the Roses. And sort of World War II. Merlyn, who lives through time backwards, complains about this very thing when talking to Arthur about the various recountings of Arthur's story - yeah, the character complains that the novel he's in is ridiculous. Like I said, it's good.

Kinda got on a tangent there, but my point is that Merlin could totally change with the times, whether through the weird mythic-time explanation or because the grEAtest wYzaRd EVar would probably be pretty "with it." I will be quite surprised if that guy isn't Merlin.

I'm pretty much on board with the theory that the British guy is Merlin, and in Harry's basically-I'm-Merlin storyline he's going to end up with too much power and one of his buds will stick him in Demonreach.

And then he'll break out and the apocalypse will happen.

This theory is awesome. But if Harry gets even more powerful, who could actually stand up to him that would also think he needed to be imprisoned? Probably a pretty short list.

I mean, I'm sure Mab could clean his clock but I can't see Mab being all, "whoa, power be dangerous yo, let's have some restraint peoples." Mab is all about that [excrement].

The Merlin? As in not Merlin but "the Merlin," leader of the White Council? That I could see.

Or maybe the Knights of the Cross, what with their divine intervention and/or bizarre lucky coincidence powers, assuming that Murphy gets off her ass and that their destruction isn't what kicks off the apocalypse in the first place.

[Sanguine]

Actually since King Arthur was originally a Brythonic legend rather than an Anglo-Saxon one Merlin shouldn't even be speaking Old English, he should be speaking a Celtic language closer to Welsh or Breton than any variation of English.

[MammonAzrael]

Hasn't it been established that DF Merlin could time travel, as that is how he set up Demonreach in the first place? I could see him acquiring a swath of accents from various time periods, and simply using the one that will most likely be understandable by Dresden.

[Gnome Alone]

accents from various time periods, and simply using the one that will most likely be understandable by Dresden.

"Dresden, don't be trippin', fool."

[Eldan]

A friend of mine, a wonderful and hyperliterate English major (who now, come to think of it, lives in Chicago), once took a "History of the English Language" class and told me that actual Old English sounded much more like French than it did modern English. It had that Romance language flow to it, before use as a trade language and the adoption/stealin' of like every word it came in contact with clunked it up so much. (I am paraphrasing cuz this was like 12 years ago.) She said they'd learned the Lord's Prayer in Old English and she recited it for me - and yeah, it was flipping incomprehensible. So long story short, I agree.

Wouldn't that be middle English? From the bits and pieces I've seen, Old English looked like a very Germanic language to me.

[oudeis]

I don't remember any 'British Guy' on Demonreach.

[GenericMook]

I don't remember any 'British Guy' on Demonreach.

Spoiler

Show

He's only mentioned in of Butcher's readings of Skin Game during some convention. Kinda spoiler-ish, actually.

[Gnome Alone]

Wouldn't that be middle English? From the bits and pieces I've seen, Old English looked like a very Germanic language to me.

It might've been Middle English. I don't know, it was a long time ago and I believe she took French in high school so maybe it sounded more French to her because she had that fresh in mind as a comparison and knew no German.

What happened was I looked up when Middle English was (12th-15th century apparently), remembered that the Arthurian cycle is earlier than that, and forgot that my anecdote didn't have to correspond directly to the Arthur legends' time period to make my point. Come to think of it, if Middle English was incomprehensible to a modern English speaker that would be an even stronger argument.

[Lamech]

But if DR doesnt have any free will.. then there will not be anything for the fallen to manipulate.

The Fallens corruption is all about manipulating the choices the wearer of the coin takes, and if the wearer cant chose to give up his will in service to the fallen, then the fallen can whisper all it want, it is not going to change anything.

Computer programs don't have free will. Computer programs can be manipulated. It might not be able to connect to demonreach, but I doubt very much something without free will would have any chance against one of the Fallen if they can start their manipulations.

Hell, if Demonreach could contain the Fallen why aren't they in there? Its not like someone capable of fighting Skinwalkers would have trouble with most Denarians.

[lord_khaine]

Computer programs don't have free will. Computer programs can be manipulated. It might not be able to connect to demonreach, but I doubt very much something without free will would have any chance against one of the Fallen if they can start their manipulations.

No.. you can either exploit loopholes in the initial set of parameters, or you can change the rules by hacking the program, but you are not manipulating the program in the general meaning of the word.

It would be like throwing the coin at a tree or a rock.. how much would that accomplish?
Or heck, why do you think none of the more bestial fallen has not taken the easy way out, and just picked a brown bear or a siberian tiger?
Because if you are going to be a beast all the time.. then you might as well pick one thats physically powerfull from the start.

Hell, if Demonreach could contain the Fallen why aren't they in there? Its not like someone capable of fighting Skinwalkers would have trouble with most Denarians.

I think you kinda answered yourself there..
Why do we Skinwalkers walking around in the free? or for that matter other threats like trolls or black court vampires?

If something like those isnt trapped in the place then its clearly either to insignificant, to cunning or not mean enough... take your pick as to what aplies to the Denarians.

[Mauve Shirt]

Hrm. The Skinwalker may have had its own free will. It made its own decisions and all. But, it may have been merely driven by its nature to cause harm and pain and death; It's not like we've seen THAT before *coughmabcough*.

I wonder if you need to lack Free Will in order to end up in Demonreach. Harry threatened Mab with imprisonment. That would explain why the Denarians didn't get locked in the prison, they attached themselves to humans.

Of course if that's correct, it means Merlin (if it is Merlin, which I seriously believe; He's so powerful he probably can manage modern English) took a deal that took his free will. You know, like a Knight of Faerie does.

OR WE'RE CRAZY. Soras would say as much.

[lord_khaine]

No.. the whole deal with Uriels 6 words to Harry were that even after he had assumed the mantle, and accepted Mabs deal, then he still had free will.

But i dont think the presence or absence of free will have anything to do with being locked up in DR, only the degree of power you posses, and the level of danger you pose.

[Rakaydos]

I buy a variation of another theory posted ages ago- At the end of the series, Dresden knows he's become too powerful, the mortal athorities are after him across the world, but he stops the Black council and nemisis completely in it's tracks. So he hands off the Warden title, and has himself interrned in Demonreach in a final goodby end to the series.

And then the post apocalyptic trilogy starts with him being woken up, and everything has gone to hell.

[Socratov]

Has anyone considered Free will to be something akin to gun control? I mean, the more powerful and reality threatening you are, the less free will you have... Though through this kind of thinking that means the WG is most bound of all...

[Mauve Shirt]

No.. the whole deal with Uriels 6 words to Harry were that even after he had assumed the mantle, and accepted Mabs deal, then he still had free will.

But i dont think the presence or absence of free will have anything to do with being locked up in DR, only the degree of power you posses, and the level of danger you pose.

Uriel's quite good at bending the truth, and Slade had free will too, for a while. So did Lily. I think Harry is in real danger of changing for the worse after a time. Molly too; She's always had that dark side to her, and Mab's going to give her the extra push.
I still think Free Will is a decent answer to the "why weren't any Denarians imprisoned" question, but you're probably right. I mean, it's more likely the Denarians weren't a danger to Demonreach, and Harry wasn't pals with DR yet.

Socratov, it's a good thought, but the Outsiders are clearly the most powerful and reality-threatening thing out there, and they almost certainly have Free Will.

[Lamech]

Uriel's quite good at bending the truth, and Slade had free will too, for a while. So did Lily. I think Harry is in real danger of changing for the worse after a time. Molly too; She's always had that dark side to her, and Mab's going to give her the extra push.
I still think Free Will is a decent answer to the "why weren't any Denarians imprisoned" question, but you're probably right. I mean, it's more likely the Denarians weren't a danger to Demonreach, and Harry wasn't pals with DR yet.

Socratov, it's a good thought, but the Outsiders are clearly the most powerful and reality-threatening thing out there, and they almost certainly have Free Will.

But the series is all about Free Will versus Imprisoned Will. If Nemesis really DID grant Maeve free will...

[lord_khaine]

Uriel's quite good at bending the truth, and Slade had free will too, for a while. So did Lily. I think Harry is in real danger of changing for the worse after a time. Molly too; She's always had that dark side to her, and Mab's going to give her the extra push.

What makes you think Slade ever lost his free will?

Socratov, it's a good thought, but the Outsiders are clearly the most powerful and reality-threatening thing out there, and they almost certainly have Free Will.

And even more, what makes you believe Outsiders have free will? because i can not recall seeing any evidence for this so far.

[Socratov]

Socratov, it's a good thought, but the Outsiders are clearly the most powerful and reality-threatening thing out there, and they almost certainly have Free Will.

And even more, what makes you believe Outsiders have free will? because i can not recall seeing any evidence for this so far.

this. All we know is that they are immensely powerful and are able to screw with the natural order (allowing Maeve to lie), or dominate/control subjects (Grimalkin). For all we know that is their nature and they can't really help it (which would be extremely frustrating meeting Harry)

[Mauve Shirt]

Sometimes I find it quite annoying that we can't prove that anyone who's not human/part human has Free Will. Harry doesn't know enough.

[Gnome Alone]

At the risk of sounding all "freshman philosophy class," I think that's the annoying thing about the concept of free will period. Can't be proved one way or t'other. A being with free will and a deterministic being that believes it has free will would be functionally identical, or at least I'd imagine very hard to distinguish between.

[lord_khaine]

Actually i just find the whole free/nonfree will issue to be stupid.

Firstly i think its a dumb way to make humanity a special snowflake thats collectively more important than everyone else.

Secondly, if the angels and fallen does not have it, then the implications are staggering for the mental health of their creator.

[Gryffon]

Mauve, fix our prefix, we are Books not TV! I think it's in the first post somewhere.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not sure that's an option... explored it with one of mine.

[Gryffon]

Looks like there are some limitations. Thread has to be less than 56 days old, and not sure if you can change it if it already has one? I don't think it matters too much, but would be nice. Worse comes to worse. We have an active mod that uses the thread. He'll probably change it.

[Eldan]

So. Been relistening to the series to prepare for the next book.

Man. So much foreshadowing in hindsight after one has read Cold Days. Like, any conversation with faeries involved. Proven Guilty especially.

Random theory: I propose a next wielder for one of the swords. Butters and Amoracchius. He's not a warrior, but I don't think I've seen any other characters that represent love so well. Mercy, especially. The point where this idea came to me is where they are talking about the Snakeman in Dead Beat. And his entire reason for why he has taken up forensics instead of medicine.

[Valwyn]

Butter seems unlikely... which means there's a good chance.

Personally, I like the idea of Charity taking the sword. Not sure if she has royal blood (which you seem to need for some reason), but Proven Guilty has her in full momma bear mode. I doubt she will, but she's a good candidate, too. Either way, I think Jim said the swords won't really come into play until the apocalypse, so we may have to wait a while.


On a random note, I wonder if Fitz (the orphan medium from Ghost Story) ever got training from Mort and became an ectomancer. That would be cool.

[Gnome Alone]

On a random note, I wonder if Fitz (the orphan medium from Ghost Story) ever got training from Mort and became an ectomancer. That would be cool.

Well, there's the Saturday morning artoon spin-off right there, all ready to go.

[Eldan]

Feels like every other strong mortal character has a superpowered kid. Molly doesn't count anymore, but there's Margret, Daniel, little McFinn... give them Mouse and we have a teenage supernatural mystery solving team.

[Mauve Shirt]

Margret? As in Dresden's daughter? She's hardly "superpowered."

[Valwyn]

Feels like every other strong mortal character has a superpowered kid. Molly doesn't count anymore, but there's Margret, Daniel, little McFinn... give them Mouse and we have a teenage supernatural mystery solving team.

Sadly, the age difference is probably too great for them to be a teenage team.

McFinn? The loup-garoup guy? When did he have a kid?

Margret? As in Dresden's daughter? She's hardly "superpowered."

And speaking of Maggie, can she be a practitioner? I thought the magic genes were only passed down by the mother (at least I think that was the point of killing the witches in White Night), but Harry thinks Maggie might turn out to be a witch, even if Susan wasn't one. Did I get that wrong?
Wonder if being conceived by a half-vampire will have any effects...