Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well gotta be something there since its been touched on repeatedly throughout the series and Ms Demeter is still around, but she's also a pretty strong canidate for Ne... the adversary which is enough on its own.

Whether that Amanda Beckitt will be particularly relevant beyond mentioning difficult to say and depends on what is meant. Marcone dies when mother follows him to daughter, yeah totally. Only way to take him down just about you ask me. Very classical tragedy too I dare say.

I think that Amanda herself though is long looong gone at this point even if there's still some bits of her around they aren't important to her anymore.

[Hogwarts9876]

Do you think it's OK to get my fairly mature 15 year old cousin Storm Front for her birthday without clearing it with her parents?

[lord_khaine]

Do you think it's OK to get my fairly mature 15 year old cousin Storm Front for her birthday without clearing it with her parents?

I would say yes unless the parents are insanely overprotective or fanatically religious.

Its not a horror story or anything, and while there does happen some more adult stuff then it happens "offscreen" so to speak.
If Stormfront had been a movie (and oh i wish it was so ), then i would not have a problem letting someone at the age of 15 watch it.. as book i dont see any problem at all.

[Hogwarts9876]

I would say yes unless the parents are insanely overprotective or fanatically religious.

Its not a horror story or anything, and while there does happen some more adult stuff then it happens "offscreen" so to speak.
If Stormfront had been a movie (and oh i wish it was so ), then i would not have a problem letting someone at the age of 15 watch it.. as book i dont see any problem at all.

It's a while since I read it, but isn't there some pretty adult stuff onscreen at the end?

[lord_khaine]

It's a while since I read it, but isn't there some pretty adult stuff onscreen at the end?

No.. or well.. there are of course some poor bugger getting murderised by his own demon.. or scorpions the size of large dogs running around.. and someone does also as i recall shoot Harry..

But really.. as i recall there are more adult content in LotR, where a member of the fellowship gets murdered by orcs.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't know about offscreen all that much. In Storm Front there is that ritual sex happening right there in the *ahem* climax even if its not dwelt on in graphic detail and isn't tremendously important. Down to about middle aged couple "and they were having sex" is about the level of detail. Overall the violence is somewhere in the PG-13 to R range but nothing tremendous, especially for in text form. I suspect a typical 15 year old has very probably already encountered edgier material. That's inferring this is a 15-to-16 birthday anyways.

Really probably sounds worse in the abstract then it is.

Unless you think your cousin is going to have a major freak out and go running to her parents afterward (or they're likely to yoink, read, and trash the book themselves) I see no reason at all to mention it to them. Those sorta cases are probably better grounds for finding a less problematic present and if she really wants to check it out slip her a paperback at a less public venue later.

[The Glyphstone]

New crackpot theory, borne of my continued re-reading binge:

So while a regular person who lacked the sense could, technically, learn how to use magic without it, it would be a process as difficult as someone who was born blind teaching himself to paint.

So, who do we know who is A) a regular non-magic person, B) incredibly smart, and C) in possession of the most powerful and knowledgeable tutor regarding magical theory on Earth?

[Landis963]

New crackpot theory, borne of my continued re-reading binge:


So, who do we know who is A) a regular non-magic person, B) incredibly smart, and C) in possession of the most powerful and knowledgeable tutor regarding magical theory on Earth?

You don't think Butters would gain magic?

[Socratov]

New crackpot theory, borne of my continued re-reading binge:


So, who do we know who is A) a regular non-magic person, B) incredibly smart, and C) in possession of the most powerful and knowledgeable tutor regarding magical theory on Earth?

The question is, is Magic something to be learned to an innate talent you can study?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Butters knows magic already, Harry taught him in Dead Beat even before Bob.

Its all about what league are we talking about here.

I dare say that aside from being blind there's also the issue of basic inherent magical muscle not addressed by that quote really. Harry had a basic capacity for throwing around power that while say Molly/Ramirez/Luccio/Elaine all have variations they have some of the same capacity and all should be well above what Butters could ever do. Like how Paranetters can create wards but they're stuck on phasers-to-stun not the set-for-disintegrate power Harry can manage.

Fundamentally without Talent it would always be a crippled work around. You'd need to operate almost entirely through tools, and not simply foci but actual enchantments, which you'd have a damned hard time keeping powered up. Like you need a ritual implementation and a hefty external source of power just to run Harry's little tracking spell. And that's making a big assumption you don't need a certain amount of talent to prime the pump as it were even when using say a leyline or a thunderstorm, which seems fairly likely to me.

The barriers would all be ones of engineering not physics, but that can be all the more intractable in practical terms.

[The Glyphstone]

He'd never be a Council-level heavyweight, and it is possible I'm just jumping at Chekov's Gun-shaped shadows. But if anyone is eligible to turn that quote into reality, it's Butters, and I kinda want to see the little guy get another power upgrade. It'd be real neat to see him as some sort of arcanik - building/enchanting magical trinkets or potions of his own, stuff like the ghost-radio that he designed but needed Molly to enchant.

[Gnome Alone]

That is a cool idea. Butters the UMD/Ritual Caster mage. Plus, it's pretty believable; I recall Thomas saying in "Backup" that pretty much anyone can do at least a little magic if they know what they're doing, and that's kinda Butters main thing in the first place.

[Gryffon]

You know, speaking of Amanda Beckitt. Maybe Nicodemus is just stealing the Grail as part of a deal with another member of the Accords...

[lord_khaine]

You know, speaking of Amanda Beckitt. Maybe Nicodemus is just stealing the SPOILER as part of a deal with another member of the Accords...

Im sorry.. but that sounds about as unlikely a theory as they get.

Considering how bad the relationship is between those 2 members are, and how much Nicodemus has shown interest in simular items previously.

Also.. that message should really be spoilered to avoid giving away part of the plot on a book thats not even out yet

[Gryffon]

It's on the jacket cover?

Harry Dresden, Chicago's only professional wizard, is about to have a very bad day…

Because as Winter Knight to the Queen of Air and Darkness, Harry never knows what the scheming Mab might want him to do. Usually, it’s something awful.
.
He doesn’t know the half of it…

Mab has just traded Harry’s skills to pay off one of her debts. And now he must help a group of supernatural villains—led by one of Harry’s most dreaded and despised enemies, Nicodemus Archleone—to break into the highest-security vault in town, so that they can then access the highest-security vault in the Nevernever.

It's a smash and grab job to recover the literal Holy Grail from the vaults of the greatest treasure hoard in the supernatural world—which belongs to the one and only Hades, Lord of the freaking Underworld and generally unpleasant character. Worse, Dresden suspects that there is another game afoot that no one is talking about. And he's dead certain that Nicodemus has no intention of allowing any of his crew to survive the experience. Especially Harry.

Dresden's always been tricky, but he's going to have to up his backstabbing game to survive this mess—assuming his own allies don’t end up killing him before his enemies get the chance…

I don't doubt Marcone would work with Nicodemus if he felt it would benefit him, and he had sufficient protections in place. He is a member of the Accords now, his position is a little bit better than last time he fought with Nicodemus over an artifact.

But yes, it's a completely crackpot theory. But one that I feel would be interesting in the least. If Marcone has any inkling about it, I don't doubt that he would try to also get his hands on it for the same purposes as the Shroud.

[The Glyphstone]

It's on the jacket cover?



I don't doubt Marcone would work with Nicodemus if he felt it would benefit him, and he had sufficient protections in place. He is a member of the Accords now, his position is a little bit better than last time he fought with Nicodemus over an artifact.

But yes, it's a completely crackpot theory. But one that I feel would be interesting in the least. If Marcone has any inkling about it, I don't doubt that he would try to also get his hands on it for the same purposes as the Shroud.

Marcone was also a member of the Accords when Niccy and the Nickleheads kidnapped him, tortured him, and attempted to forcibly recruit him into the Order as their B-plot for recruiting the Archive. While Marcone would love to get the Grail, I really doubt he's the "fool me twice" sort.

[Eldan]

What is the Denarians' Accord status anyway? Are they in the Accords? Because I think they are the kind of thing that Nicodemus would gleefully ignore when it suited him.

[Gryffon]

They are signatories, I checked before posting my crackpot ideas.

[The Glyphstone]

Definitely accord signatories. That's the lynchpin of Niccy's entire plan in Small Favors, since a dispute between two Accord groups requires a neutral Emissary, and Dresden's habitual nature would cause him to call the Archive as said Emissary.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah that was kinda important.

They're members as a faction (not say a Freeholder like Marcone) as the Order of the Blackened Denarius and described by Luccio as a 'minor power' IIRC which is sorta horrible and hilarious at the same time. Presumably Nicodemus has a sort of official status as their leader.

I figure Nicky will just break any agreement so he can attack the idea of "your word" as an ethic even among the relatively evil. Each time he can get away with it even partially, he proves that it much of a virtue or advantage.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't know about offscreen all that much. In Storm Front there is that ritual sex happening right there in the *ahem* climax even if its not dwelt on in graphic detail and isn't tremendously important. Down to about middle aged couple "and they were having sex" is about the level of detail. Overall the violence is somewhere in the PG-13 to R range but nothing tremendous, especially for in text form. I suspect a typical 15 year old has very probably already encountered edgier material. That's inferring this is a 15-to-16 birthday anyways.

Really probably sounds worse in the abstract then it is.

Unless you think your cousin is going to have a major freak out and go running to her parents afterward (or they're likely to yoink, read, and trash the book themselves) I see no reason at all to mention it to them. Those sorta cases are probably better grounds for finding a less problematic present and if she really wants to check it out slip her a paperback at a less public venue later.

Also, there was the mid-coitus heart rip in the start of the book. Harry does take a bit of time to note the pose of the bodies in clinical detail.

[Lamech]

New crackpot theory, borne of my continued re-reading binge:

So while a regular person who lacked the sense could, technically, learn how to use magic without it, it would be a process as difficult as someone who was born blind teaching himself to paint.

So, who do we know who is A) a regular non-magic person, B) incredibly smart, and C) in possession of the most powerful and knowledgeable tutor regarding magical theory on Earth?

Interesting Crackpot Theory. I will raise you this crackpot theory.
If you need a magical sense to learn magic and a better sense=better magic wouldn't going around with the Sight always open make you a better mage. Now you might go insane, but if you found a way around that or were able to shape the insanity in a direction you wanted... well a normal person with one too many shots of Three Eye could become a mighty wizard. Or at least a weak, but highly sensitive wizard. (Molly.) Hell, what if you came up with a toned down version?

On a similar note: spending time around magic can make you more magical and crap. What if you lived in the Nevernever. Plus its easier to do magic and sense magic IIRC, since its... well a realm of pure magic. And you can distort time there.

Wouldn't it just be awful if team evil was raising an army of Three Eye powered super wizards?

[Mauve Shirt]

That would explain where all the three-eye withdrawal victims may have gone...

[lord_khaine]

Also, there was the mid-coitus heart rip in the start of the book. Harry does take a bit of time to note the pose of the bodies in clinical detail.

Well yeah.. having your heart ripped out is a little brutal.. but again.. its not something we directly "see".. only something we get the aftereffects off.

Interesting Crackpot Theory. I will raise you this crackpot theory.
If you need a magical sense to learn magic and a better sense=better magic wouldn't going around with the Sight always open make you a better mage. Now you might go insane, but if you found a way around that or were able to shape the insanity in a direction you wanted... well a normal person with one too many shots of Three Eye could become a mighty wizard. Or at least a weak, but highly sensitive wizard. (Molly.) Hell, what if you came up with a toned down version?

Unfortunately i would say Harry and Molly are direct proof of that better sense not being = better magic.. or at least not stronger magic.

[Gnome Alone]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

[Landis963]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

I'd start with Grave Peril, or just skip over Fool Moon. Fool Moon is th most annoyingly bad of that first section, IMO, and can easily be discarded.

[Socratov]

Here's a question I've been mulling around: which novel of the series is actually the best one to start with? I personally read Fool Moon first, then the rest of them in order (except I read Side Jobs between Death Masks and Blood Rites, so hey, spoiler alert galore and all.)

But I liked it from the get-go. I am asking because I want to get my brother to read some of them so we can nerd out.

Honestly, it's a little weird that I'm the one who's into them cuz he's got like way more geek cred than I and it's usually him that introduces me to such. He was surprised that I had heard of Mistborn on my own, that kind of thing.

So unforgiving sequentalist Teutonic logic and all would say "Begin at the beginning, you worthless fool!!" with Storm Front, but both Storm Front and Fool Moon have problems with not being all that good, really.

I personally felt like things picked up quite a bit with Grave Peril and then got really good with Death Masks. So I'm thinking Death Masks. It would have the spoiler about Susan but not about Thomas, Which I figure is kind of a big deal, considering how "Little Orphan Harry" the first few books get. Anyways, thoughts?

maybe. I'd still be one of those teutonic people saying that the beginning is the best place to start since you'll get a more gradual feel for the magic used. Then again, if we were talking favourites, none of the other books have managed to beat Dead Beat and not only because of Sue (although she is a major factor in why the book is so great).

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think there's a difference between not being as good and actually being bad. I got into the series a little before Proven Guilty and I didn't need anyone telling me about Dead Beat to keep reading. No the first three are a big step down, but heck I was stirred enough to throw down for another paperback.

Also at a meta-level a fair bit of appreciating the series is seeing Mr Butcher mature as an author. So there is a greater reason then just properly following the plot threads for going in order. Plus one of the series strengths I think is building on itself, particular in things like character relationships. How are you supposed to appreciate the scene where Harry predicting he's about to be slugged and arrested, and Murphy says she damn well should, without have read the early books that happened in.

And picking a point to say "this is when they became worth reading" to me smacks of a certain needless elitism and overanalysis. Going down that path sorta compells me to point out are we actually going to put forward the Dresden Files as the proverbial "good literature" because while they've come a long way from that rather painful story with Murphy and the troll in Side Jobs... well if I really wanted to I could still tear the entire series to shreds. So to me that's a big false premise.

So yeah read the whole damn thing, if you can't survive the first 2-3 books I'd worry you have bad expectations and/or be coming in expecting some life changing transcendent work because of fan gushing about how awesome it is.

[Gnome Alone]

I don't feel like it's needless elitism just to think that the first two are a little clunky and that the fifth one is where the truly awesome stuff kicks in.

That's what I meant anyway.

Literarily, well... I will actually stand by the Dresden Files as having a lot to say about the value of family and community and doing the right thing in spite of ferocious opposition. Granted, what it has to say is not terribly original, but I don't care; and it's no, say, Earthsea cycle, but what is?

I just want my slightly-more-geeky-than-me hermano to like it without shrugging and going, "Eh." You raise a valid point, though, in that the gap is not all that large and that someone who does not care for Storm Front or Fool Moon at all is unlikely to find Dead Beat or White Night all that much better. Plus, dude got me to read the first two Sword of Truth books, so, a) barf, and b) he kinda owes me one, so "hey, read Storm Front already" it is.

EDIT: Come to think of it, every negative review of the Dresden Files that I've read seems to hang on either: *Look at this author photo! Nerd! What is this, porn for the Trench Coat Mafia?!, or *vile Marcusean identity politics. How dare the main character be both Caucasian and male and not apologize for it, or *derivative; boring; over it. None of which I find to be particularly compelling arguments, except perhaps the last, but to each his own and such.

[Feytalist]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I would not have minded if he had continued writing in the style of Storm Front and Fool Moon. I mean; noir-y detective stories with magic? What's not to love. You don't need a huge interconnected 'verse hovering in the background. (Okay, so the 'verse is awesome. But still...)

So: Begin at the beginning. You worthless fool.