My Little Pony LXXIV: Hats Are Technology!

[Rater202]

Not sure he's confirmed or specified, but he certainly expressed intention to move on to higher things and more ambitious writing and I don't think he was just talking about starting his fallout equestria campaign.

But here's a subject, the 'Water Fountain".
There was, to my memory, a guy called Duchampe? He was a cubist before the war, quite a nice one I thought. But when he came back from the war, he just didn't value painting the same way.

Exact chain of events I'm hazy on. But he was invited by a museum to judge an art contest. He submitted a urinal, put the wrong way up and signed largely in permenant marker or something under a false name. When it came before the judging board, the others were furious at it and apologised profusely to Duchampe about how insulting it was of this guy to submit such none art.

Duchampe stood up, shouted at them for being philistines and walked out.

Or something like that. It was part of a series he called "ready mades", where the artistic element came from the selection and signing or pre existing objects.

I seem to recall he tried to sign the empire state building on that same trip, but they had security prevent him from basically claiming it.

I preferred his cubist paintings, really.

edit - Oh, and its worth remembering, Fan Fiction isn't a medium. Its not even a genre. Its, what, a catagory?

I think it's a sub-catagory of literature.

[TheAmishPirate]

edit - Oh, and its worth remembering, Fan Fiction isn't a medium. Its not even a genre. Its, what, a catagory?

Maybe? It certainly seems to fit better than medium, but beyond that your guess is as good as mine.


Perhaps we should come up with our own name for such works, and then stubbornly refuse to change in hopes our term will be widely adopted as the norm? That seems like the most profitable wisest choice.

[Juntao112]

They should however be judged upon their overall results so that kinda boils out.

In which case, cartoons should be utterly condemned.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Writing well requires technical skill the same way drawing well requires technical skill. Not sure why drawing gets a free pass here, and writing does not.

It doesn't nor have I claimed that this in NOT about fanart versus fanfic. Or any sort of opposition.

That fanfics are exceptionally and overwhelmingly dreadful is ultimately only a factoid if important. I would not bother if that was my only concern. I only single them out for as a symtom/cause of the mental disease of fan rot, they are ideas so thus directly carry the fandoms delusion of being better at the game then the source material.

This doesn't happen (to any similiar degree at least) with other content. Mostly I think because other media are simply different by nature, it doesn't inspire that story vs story mindset of criticism. And also because I think people inherently better understand the amazing stuff won't be translated easily to mass production. Whatever the case you simply don't find it in anything like the mass I've come to expect.

If it did I'd be ****ting all over fanart as a dangerous drug too. Outside of pony non fanfic and fanart content is a pretty rare breed, even for AMVs.

A judgement which is, in the end, entirely subjective. Even more so when anything good is counted as an exception.

I have a healthy respect for the subjective and have spent years now searching for if not actually the best but the highest common denominators I can.

Nobody seems to even pretend that the vast mass of fanfic is any good, only championing the supposed exceptions I will politely take their word on. Problem is other media... is actually pretty damn good.

He downs both glasses, punches Wesley in the face, and proceeds to go drunk sail-boating?

Only one glass was poisoned and he figured it out.

I know you know, so I know that I should know and you should anticpate my knowing you knowing my know....

[DigoDragon]

He downs both glasses, punches Wesley in the face, and proceeds to go drunk sail-boating?

Um... well I suppose if a remake was ever done, it basically be that, yeah. Vin Diesel as Wesley, Kelsey Grammer as Miracle Max, and for no reason at all the scene with the shreeking eels is completely green-screened. You know, for the 3D ticket sales.

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[Forum Explorer]

My exams are finally over! Do you know what this means? Time to get a job watch pony!


So thoughts as I go on Daring Don't

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Start off with Fluttershy being adorable as she teaches baby birds to fly and then lot's of shipping fuel for FlutterDash.

the baby chicks flying around Rainbow Dash's head is a great visual gag.


Pinkie's head looked really creepy there.

Fluttershy is wearing a top hat. Why do ponies have the best hats?

Read the same book 12 times? I've done that.

Oh and sending the Earth Pony who can't fly to talk to the Pegasus who lives in a cloud seems like a silly thing to do.

Nice Indiana Jones reference.

Pinkie's painting the trail!

Is it just me or has Twilight's horn grown?

Looks like Pinkie was correct.

Wait, A.K. Yearling? That doesn't sound very pony.

Overly elaborate book security is the best security. Discord has known this all along.

Nevermind, not a real name at all.

Let's all just watch the fight instead of actually helping Daring Do.

and Fluttershy brings them all to their senses.

Look at Rainbow Dash and Twilight represent every fandom ever!

You have literally saved Equestria multiple times Twilight. This isn't over your head, this is your day to day life.

Slapping yourself out of sillyness is awesome. Which is why Rainbow Dash keeps doing it. Also her real motive comes to light.

Sneak attack!

Quick wit, courage, and an irrepressible fanfilly. Seriously I think we need Fluttershy here to keep Rainbow Dash in check.

My work always involves secrets. That's why I publish all of my adventures to a worldwide audience.

So odds the rest of the Mane 6 showing up? I'm going with pretty high when they get caught in the inevitable deathtrap.

Focus Rainbow Dash!

Daring Do has a maxed out skill in Snark

I'm calling these guys the Hammer Cat squad.

Rainbow Dash has transformed into the annoying sidekick of the hero. You've fallen a long way pony.

And now she's been captured without doing anything.

What you've done is carried the Idiot Ball Rainbow Dash. And you should be ashamed of yourself. Sadly I can't say this is OOC for her, Rainbow Dash really seems to struggle with reality at times and the proper behavior.

And the sensible ponies have caught up.

Yes it is your fault.

Alright Twilight now apply that speech to how you view Celestia.

I see 5 ponies trotting but I'll give Rainbow Dash the benefit of the doubt.

And that was rewarded.

Combat teleport!

Let's not drop the ring but fly away with it instead. Aw well it worked.

And shipping fuel for DaringDash.

Hmm was that the Wonderbolt Academy? That or Rainbow Dash's house got a serious upgrade.

Overall thoughts

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This really showcased one of Rainbow Dash's biggest flaws, and it's a flaw I hate dealing with. She is an incredible fan, and loses sight of reality/what's important when dealing with something that she's a fan of.

So I'm actually really glad they made this episode, even if I had to put up with an annoying fanfilly. Because now hopefully that annoying fanfilly will be more or less gone for good.

The rest of the episode? Amazing. Lots of fun, good action, good accents, lot's of material to play with in future fanfics. Also a very important lesson.

Finally, direct contradiction of the comics. Which is a plus in my books.

[HamHam]

It is a reviewers job to dissect a show, a film, an album or whatever. They are there to dismantle it in such a way that someone on the fence can decide whether to look for themselves or not.

But its not a healthy approach when it comes to enjoying a show and it isn't constructive. You are actively training yourself to focus on the negative and the minutae, a process that actively makes it harder for you to enjoy things.

Alternatively, it means you have actual taste.

Commercial Critique as the attempt to but a value (in time or money) to a work for the purpose of recommendation, Classical Critique as a search for meaning within a work, and Technical Critique on the basis of a work on its technical aspects (brush strokes for a painting, animation for a cartoon, etc) are all related but distinct.

If you want your media to be anything other than meaningless fluff one must engage in classical critique. Passive osmosis is just not on the same level as actively contextualizing and internalizing the meaning of a work. And with this comes the inevitable fact that if a work has no meaning or has some really dumb meaning you will become aware of that fact.

Presuming that we can separate technical critique from classical critique, a similar situation still applies. In order to be able to truly appreciate technical brilliance, one must have a knowledge of the technical aspects and thus also the ability to notice technical deficiencies.

To the extent that storytelling has technical aspects, being able to notice when those aspects are masterfully handled comes with it noticing when those aspects are bungled.

Come to that, in some cases (pony generally not among them) talented amatuers can manage to tell a better story than the actual thing they're sourcing from.

On the contrary, with Daring Don't in particular one of my biggest problems is that The Sisters Doo already did this better. In a more general sense, the MLP EU has created a universe far bigger and more interesting than the show can ever match, partially because of time limitations, partially because of the limits of its rating, and partially because the writers don't seem to understand how to do worldbuilding and continuity correctly.

The shows attempts at anything besides episodic slice of life comedy are amateurish. And in that one area were it's pretty good... so far this season it's been just okay. When I consider that Outbreak Company has left me laughing so hard I had to pause the video several times...

MLP is just not on top of the list of shows I'm anticipating each week. I'm more excited about checking my Favs on Fimfic.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh get off the high horse.

This is the exact sort of removal from reality that has driven my views.

You wanna read fanfic, well hey not like I'm going to fly over to England while smuggling a gun so I can hold it to your head. But you sure are going to hear me when I speak in public about how terrible they all are. No exceptions don't matter, that's why they are exceptions.

But you have aptly demonstrated the exact corrosive effects I'm really talking about. That intellectually incestuous behavior pattern (preacher and choir) creating a closed circle of self importance that shows the etymology of "fan" is indeed spot on.

I'd despise it if fanfics actually were better then their source material.

Alright, let's just start off with that I find this attitude both unrealistic and distasteful. Because it is literally the same attitude that plagued/plagues so many other mediums. The idea that a certain medium, or style, or category is inherently worth less simply because it's in that category is stupid.

and yes, the exceptions matter. They are the only thing that matters. Because the vast majority of literally everything is crap or to put it another way, everything good is an exception. For that matter taste is subjective anyways, I find 99% of TV shows to be despicable, but I don't blame TV for that. I put the blame where it belongs, on my own tastes in entertainment. And I know I like things that aren't popular.

Nice word choice you used to insult AortS while managing to not actually address his point at all! This has nothing to do with him being a fan, or a fandom acting in a self-congratulatory manner. He simply stood up to you for calling an entire category of entertainment bad for simply existing.

[Coidzor]

Writing well requires technical skill the same way drawing well requires technical skill. Not sure why drawing gets a free pass here, and writing does not.

Copying and playing with others' IP is a longstanding tradition as part of learning and training the visual artist's craft.

Writing, not so much. Partially there's the general rule that using someone else's world and characters means that the world-building and character-building components are not getting the same amount of practice one would if one were working with one's own body of creations or drawing upon nature/meatspace.

So that's one component, maybe two.

[Theoboldi]

As a side comment on this whole debate, and as a general observation, I find it utterly fascinating how people (Soras, in this case. I am going to mention him here directly as to not appear passive-agressive.) can broadly declare certain concepts of entertainment and art as worthless and universally terrible, and then react with such anger, sometimes even shock, to people who enjoy that concept rushing to defend it. Not going to make any judgements on this, I just find it very interesting.

On an entirely different note, have some Lyra. Because Lyra.

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[HamHam]

Copying and playing with others' IP is a longstanding tradition as part of learning and training the visual artist's craft.

Writing, not so much. Partially there's the general rule that using someone else's world and characters means that the world-building and character-building components are not getting the same amount of practice one would if one were working with one's own body of creations or drawing upon nature/meatspace.

So that's one component, maybe two.

I would like to point you to like the entirety of Shakespeare's plays.

[erikun]

Pony Battle: March of the Black Alicorn

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Golems are the bane of my existance right now. I had my SiuiS and Madcrafter units stuck at this one town the entire mission because of a single golem and his dollmage. The dollmage was easily dispatched, but neither could do significant harm to the golem. Thus after every skirmish, the golem retreated to heal the dollmage and then came right back at my two units.

On the other hoof, these two units now lead the pack in experience points so... I suppose there's that. >_>

Moment of hilarity: Diego's unit met an enemy consisting of two archers in the back row and a mage in the front row. Both sides procceded to Miss on every attack. And then their mage punched one of Diego's fighters for 6 damage. Winner: enemy. *facehoof*

Spoilered for non-pony discussion.

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Which version of the game are you playing?

In SNES Ogre Battle, golems have exceptionally terrible HP and magic defense. As in, even the weakest magic attacks will tear through them. I never even bothered with golems in that game, instead pairing my Dollmages with Giants (despite not giving a bonus) because they were much more durable. A single Wizard, Dollmage, Valkyrie, or anything else set to attack the weakest opponent will likely wipe them out. At higher levels, the Mages/Dollmasters will pretty much eliminate them through just attacking everything. (Gryphons in the back row work well early-game.)

In PS1 Ogre Battle, I understand that golems had better magic defense, but still not great. Wizards and Mages automatically target the elemental weakness, and so are still great at eliminating them. Anything with a group darkness attack, such as Devils or Tiamats, will also deal great damage to golems (including the later Mithril Golem).

That fanfics are exceptionally and overwhelmingly dreadful is ultimately only a factoid if important. I would not bother if that was my only concern. I only single them out for as a symtom/cause of the mental disease of fan rot, they are ideas so thus directly carry the fandoms delusion of being better at the game then the source material.

This doesn't happen (to any similiar degree at least) with other content.

I wish to ironically point out that cartoons aimed at selling toys to little girls are exceptionally and overwhelmingly dreadful as well.

What's really disconcerning is that all of your points against fan-fiction and enjoying fan-fiction frequently gets used against My Little Pony and people who enjoy My Little Pony, up to and including being a symptom/cause of a problem in society. I think it's fine that you have an opinion, but I don't think that referring to me as a cause of mental disease because I enjoy stories and wish to give other people some enjoyment is okay.

And it happens a ton in videos and drawn art. Try looking through Youtube or an art website without their automatic "community most popular" filter on and see what you can dig up.

[Beacon of Chaos]

And right now, the burning question I have is why in Equestria would Ahuizotl want to cause 800 years of scorching heat? What's the point?

Maybe he just really likes hot weather?

Pony Battle: March of the Black Alicorn

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Moment of hilarity: Diego's unit met an enemy consisting of two archers in the back row and a mage in the front row. Both sides procceded to Miss on every attack. And then their mage punched one of Diego's fighters for 6 damage. Winner: enemy. *facehoof*

Oh dear.

[Ravian]

Copying and playing with others' IP is a longstanding tradition as part of learning and training the visual artist's craft.

Writing, not so much. Partially there's the general rule that using someone else's world and characters means that the world-building and character-building components are not getting the same amount of practice one would if one were working with one's own body of creations or drawing upon nature/meatspace.

So that's one component, maybe two.

I actually once read that deep down all writing is really fan fiction. You've heard of the phrase "There is nothing new under the sun."? Basically you can never say that some idea that is truly original. Everyone who makes it big tends to point out influences to their stories. And really everything is drawn from so many various sources of ideas that originality is only a synonym for well-hidden plagiarism.

This isn't a bad thing, heck the Beatles started out as cover band, taking other people's songs and playing them with their own personal twist. That's what helped them make their own songs from these elements and become such a hit.

Sure there's plenty of fanfiction that's god-awful, and most of those authors probably won't get anywhere near publishing a novel. But there are some that will, because they got started with fan-fiction, honing their skill until they came up with something of their own.

Ultimately a writer should write what they want to write, and from their the skill can be given the chance to improve itself.

Don't think of Fanfiction as a failed medium, think of it as prospecting field. Most of it's dirt and crap, but every once and again you find a diamond in the rough that, once it's had some polishing, will sparkle like a true gem.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Oooh, the cover of comic #17 was revealed:

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Secrets of Star Swirl? Awesome!

Check out that mirror.

[DigoDragon]

This is a huge Trixie plush collection. Want one.

Spoilered for non-pony discussion.

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Which version of the game are you playing?

Ogre Battle

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I'm playing the SNES version. What made the golem so hard to kill was that neither unit had magical support (Fighters hit it for 1 damage). I did find a magic weapon and equipped it to an amazon, thus doing some damage, but not enough to kill it before it ran off.

I eventually killed the golem when I got one of my magic teams over (has 3 mages in it). I might call it Team Commodore as it has the lowest aligned characters in my army.

...Is there a term for accidentally shipping?

Oooh, the cover of comic #17 was revealed:

Neat! I can't wait to see what the insanely mundane secret will be.

[erikun]

Ogre Battle

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I'm playing the SNES version. What made the golem so hard to kill was that neither unit had magical support (Fighters hit it for 1 damage). I did find a magic weapon and equipped it to an amazon, thus doing some damage, but not enough to kill it before it ran off.

I eventually killed the golem when I got one of my magic teams over (has 3 mages in it). I might call it Team Commodore as it has the lowest aligned characters in my army.

Not a magical weapon; magic. Weapons of all sort will do next to no damage to it. A spellcaster, though, will frequently wipe out a golem in a single shot.

Magic weapons are far better with carrying around holy weapons to deal with demons, evil units, and undead. Especially undead.

[Tiki Snakes]

Alternatively, it means you have actual taste.

Commercial Critique as the attempt to but a value (in time or money) to a work for the purpose of recommendation, Classical Critique as a search for meaning within a work, and Technical Critique on the basis of a work on its technical aspects (brush strokes for a painting, animation for a cartoon, etc) are all related but distinct.

If you want your media to be anything other than meaningless fluff one must engage in classical critique. Passive osmosis is just not on the same level as actively contextualizing and internalizing the meaning of a work. And with this comes the inevitable fact that if a work has no meaning or has some really dumb meaning you will become aware of that fact.

Presuming that we can separate technical critique from classical critique, a similar situation still applies. In order to be able to truly appreciate technical brilliance, one must have a knowledge of the technical aspects and thus also the ability to notice technical deficiencies.

To the extent that storytelling has technical aspects, being able to notice when those aspects are masterfully handled comes with it noticing when those aspects are bungled

The problem with this is twofold. Firstly, there is the risk that by scrutinizing things to such a level you miss what is actually there in favour of your own ideas and interpretations (which also risks making you sound a little pretentious, speaking in general). Secondly, as I mentioned before, all too often the end result is that you enjoy things less than you previously and otherwise would have. You gain nothing meaningful but lose out on what the things you are analyzing had to offer, be that simple fun or a sense of wonder or whatever else.

On the contrary, with Daring Don't in particular one of my biggest problems is that The Sisters Doo already did this better. In a more general sense, the MLP EU has created a universe far bigger and more interesting than the show can ever match, partially because of time limitations, partially because of the limits of its rating, and partially because the writers don't seem to understand how to do worldbuilding and continuity correctly.

The shows attempts at anything besides episodic slice of life comedy are amateurish. And in that one area were it's pretty good... so far this season it's been just okay. When I consider that Outbreak Company has left me laughing so hard I had to pause the video several times...

MLP is just not on top of the list of shows I'm anticipating each week. I'm more excited about checking my Favs on Fimfic.

This is, in general terms, a concept I've heard before. The idea that the fan community is better, smarter and more creative than the show that spawned it. That the shows are perhaps the least important bit of the whole thing.

I think there's something faintly sad about that, as an idea. It's the kind of concept that could easily come across as delusional and self-important, there's almost a touch of arrogance to it as an idea.
Perhaps I will simply say that I do not agree, that whilst the fandom has created many interesting, funny and beautiful things, none of it imparts the same kind of simple, sincere joy that the show inspires.

Alright, let's just start off with that I find this attitude both unrealistic and distasteful. Because it is literally the same attitude that plagued/plagues so many other mediums. The idea that a certain medium, or style, or category is inherently worth less simply because it's in that category is stupid.

and yes, the exceptions matter. They are the only thing that matters. Because the vast majority of literally everything is crap or to put it another way, everything good is an exception. For that matter taste is subjective anyways, I find 99% of TV shows to be despicable, but I don't blame TV for that. I put the blame where it belongs, on my own tastes in entertainment. And I know I like things that aren't popular.

Nice word choice you used to insult AortS while managing to not actually address his point at all! This has nothing to do with him being a fan, or a fandom acting in a self-congratulatory manner. He simply stood up to you for calling an entire category of entertainment bad for simply existing.

It's getting a little heated in here, but I'm going to ignore that and focus on something else instead.
I repeat, Fan Fiction isn't a medium, a genre, a style or anything else. It's just literature that is, by definition, both derivative and amateur. If you're getting it published as a legitimate work in it's own right, then it's not really fan fiction anymore, it's a parody, an homage, remix, collaboration or who knows what. If it's not actually derived from an already existing work, drawing meaningful elements themes or components of the sort then it doesn't really count on the fan side of that.

With that in mind, I would say that there is a valid argument to make that fan-fiction is in a very real sense less worthy than other forms of literature, even assuming they are otherwise of comparable quality. A story of the same length and written to the same degree of competence and with the same amount of flair, except with original characters in a distinct and original setting is of innately greater value. Like when comparing a singer who only records existing classics to a singer-songwriter, the former may be entirely more approachable, more easily digested, but the latter is a more meaningful contribution to society or some such pretentious sounding way of describing the idea that I would give it extra cookies/respect.

Copying and playing with others' IP is a longstanding tradition as part of learning and training the visual artist's craft.

Writing, not so much. Partially there's the general rule that using someone else's world and characters means that the world-building and character-building components are not getting the same amount of practice one would if one were working with one's own body of creations or drawing upon nature/meatspace.

So that's one component, maybe two.

I'm sure that the concept of imitating the writing style of different authors in order to understand why they write that way, along the way to developing your own voice is a thing, just as much as it is for painters. Though perhaps it's not such a major thing? I don't know.

I would like to point you to like the entirety of Shakespeare's plays.

Well, plenty of people have been re-telling the basic structure of his plays ever since. Not sure how that's directly relevant to the discussion though. I'm also sure that there are works that examine the characters he introduces us to, whether by re-imagining them, attempting to continue or revisit the narrative or things along those lines.

But it's not like Shakespear is re-using anyone elses characters in a meaningful way, so I'll admit that basically I think you've lost me there, on this one?

I wish to ironically point out that cartoons aimed at selling toys to little girls are exceptionally and overwhelmingly dreadful as well.

What's really disconcerning is that all of your points against fan-fiction and enjoying fan-fiction frequently gets used against My Little Pony and people who enjoy My Little Pony, up to and including being a symptom/cause of a problem in society. I think it's fine that you have an opinion, but I don't think that referring to me as a cause of mental disease because I enjoy stories and wish to give other people some enjoyment is okay.

And it happens a ton in videos and drawn art. Try looking through Youtube or an art website without their automatic "community most popular" filter on and see what you can dig up.

While Soras has a certain serrated edge to his points and a deeply held opinion at their core, I do think he has a point to some degree. I also suspect that there is a degree of mistaking his intended point (likely on account of the manner he was delivering it) going on here.

Which is to say that I doubt anyone here is seriously claiming that fanfiction or fanfiction authors cause mental illness. However, the idea of Fan-Fiction, (given it's derivative nature) being inherantly inferior or in some nebulous way of less value than more primary, more original work is not without merit and I can certainly understand and even empathise with someone being frustrated by seeing people criticise the originating work because of the existence of derivative works that happen to better fit their personal taste or views on how things should be.

I actually once read that deep down all writing is really fan fiction. You've heard of the phrase "There is nothing new under the sun."? Basically you can never say that some idea that is truly original. Everyone who makes it big tends to point out influences to their stories. And really everything is drawn from so many various sources of ideas that originality is only a synonym for well-hidden plagiarism.

This isn't a bad thing, heck the Beatles started out as cover band, taking other people's songs and playing them with their own personal twist. That's what helped them make their own songs from these elements and become such a hit.

Sure there's plenty of fanfiction that's god-awful, and most of those authors probably won't get anywhere near publishing a novel. But there are some that will, because they got started with fan-fiction, honing their skill until they came up with something of their own.

Ultimately a writer should write what they want to write, and from their the skill can be given the chance to improve itself.

Don't think of Fanfiction as a failed medium, think of it as prospecting field. Most of it's dirt and crap, but every once and again you find a diamond in the rough that, once it's had some polishing, will sparkle like a true gem.

I'm repeating myself, but I really don't believe you can call fan fiction a medium. I agree however that it's a worthy field for an aspiring writer to cut their teeth in, and there are certainly worthy pieces of writing that have emerged purely because of the amount of fan-fiction currently being posted online.

And further than that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying it. Any more than there is anything wrong with enjoying a toy-cartoon, or fiction aimed in some way at girls.

EDIT - Oh, and the whole "There are only X stories in the world!" thing always struck me as kind of meaningless both as a theory and a statement.

[Crimson Doom]

I speculate the root cause is probably because actual inspiration will trend towards not wanting to use someone else's material.

...ha. Haha. Hahahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Nothing is original. No matter what you write, you're drawing from someone else's material. Fanfiction just doesn't bother to hide that fact. And really, what makes the difference?

Fanfiction: looks at source material, finds ideas, writes story.

Real book: looks at mythology/real life/history/someone else's writing style/someone else's ideas, finds ideas, writes story.

The main difference comes from copyright laws and what material you're choosing to draw from.

I'm ignoring the rest of the argument because I don't care, but this is just something I cannot ignore.

I actually once read that deep down all writing is really fan fiction. You've heard of the phrase "There is nothing new under the sun."? Basically you can never say that some idea that is truly original. Everyone who makes it big tends to point out influences to their stories. And really everything is drawn from so many various sources of ideas that originality is only a synonym for well-hidden plagiarism.

This isn't a bad thing, heck the Beatles started out as cover band, taking other people's songs and playing them with their own personal twist. That's what helped them make their own songs from these elements and become such a hit.

Oh whoops, someone beat me to the punch.

Given how far north the valley was, perhaps his plan is to melt the snow around the northern lands, flood the Crystal Empire, and then invade for their treasures?

...might be too smart for him though.

Didn't the episode state that it was only the valley that would be inundated with heat?

Also, his minions are cats and Aztec expies. I can't picture either in scuba gear.

Maybe he just really likes hot weather?

Makes more sense than most of the theories I've been hearing thus far.

[t209]

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2013/1...d-secrets.html
I hope Discord is actually Starswirl.
Finals done and I made an account for Wildstar (plan to play as Cassian draftee or Flashman).

[erikun]

While Soras has a certain serrated edge to his points and a deeply held opinion at their core, I do think he has a point to some degree. I also suspect that there is a degree of mistaking his intended point (likely on account of the manner he was delivering it) going on here.

Which is to say that I doubt anyone here is seriously claiming that fanfiction or fanfiction authors cause mental illness. However, the idea of Fan-Fiction, (given it's derivative nature) being inherantly inferior or in some nebulous way of less value than more primary, more original work is not without merit and I can certainly understand and even empathise with someone being frustrated by seeing people criticise the originating work because of the existence of derivative works that happen to better fit their personal taste or views on how things should be.

I'm not going to disagree there. Heck, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. Even with just working on writing a story, I'm realizing that it's more than simply borrowing the characters and setting. When I write about Gilda, I don't need to spend time introducing her to the audience. I don't need to explain where she got a friend named Rainbow Dash, or why they don't currently get along, or why these other five ponies are important to the latter. It is a lesser work of literature, lacking because of that, but in exchange having a much larger potential audience to read and critique and review it than that which would otherwise even glance at it. (And this says nothing about personal motivation.)

However, I do find it odd to single out fan-fiction from all other fan-works. Are remixes of official songs really any different? Does cutting and putting together the animations from episodes generate anything better? Is there some value to be found in vectors that I'm missing? From what I see, it's all a case of fan-works in general, with all having the same issues (lack of originality) in exchange for the same benefits (probable greater audience).

As for people critiquing, say, Daring Don't for not being as good as The Sisters Doo... well, that's just silly. And, to be frank, kind of missing the point - it's a bit like people who insist the entire series "failed" and try to remake it all suiting their headcanon. Or assuming that Iron Hoof Celestia is an actual supported canon thing.

[TheAmishPirate]

It's getting a little heated in here, but I'm going to ignore that and focus on something else instead.
I repeat, Fan Fiction isn't a medium, a genre, a style or anything else. It's just literature that is, by definition, both derivative and amateur. If you're getting it published as a legitimate work in it's own right, then it's not really fan fiction anymore, it's a parody, an homage, remix, collaboration or who knows what. If it's not actually derived from an already existing work, drawing meaningful elements themes or components of the sort then it doesn't really count on the fan side of that.

With that in mind, I would say that there is a valid argument to make that fan-fiction is in a very real sense less worthy than other forms of literature, even assuming they are otherwise of comparable quality. A story of the same length and written to the same degree of competence and with the same amount of flair, except with original characters in a distinct and original setting is of innately greater value. Like when comparing a singer who only records existing classics to a singer-songwriter, the former may be entirely more approachable, more easily digested, but the latter is a more meaningful contribution to society or some such pretentious sounding way of describing the idea that I would give it extra cookies/respect.

I'm glad for the clarification of personal props there at the end; makes my thoughts fall into place much more neatly.


Yeah, I can see where you're coming from on this. At the same time, I'm not really seeing where the distinction between something like, say, historical fiction and fan fiction comes into play. Both might use entirely original characters. Both might use existing settings and existing events as backdrops and launching points for their own stories, taking advantage of the preconceived thoughts and emotions of their readers. Both might play with the themes present in their setting, either to subvert, extend, or what have you. The primary distinction that I see is that one draws primarily from nonfiction, and the other from fiction. And I feel as though there's something there I'm missing completely, but figure I'd toss it out to the collective ponythread.


Thoughts?

[Rater202]

I wish to ironically point out that cartoons aimed at selling toys to little girls are exceptionally and overwhelmingly dreadful as well.

What's really disconcerning is that all of your points against fan-fiction and enjoying fan-fiction frequently gets used against My Little Pony and people who enjoy My Little Pony, up to and including being a symptom/cause of a problem in society. I think it's fine that you have an opinion, but I don't think that referring to me as a cause of mental disease because I enjoy stories and wish to give other people some enjoyment is okay.

I'd like to second that argument.

I like Fanfiction.

I also hate it when people piss allover things I like.

I also hate it when people are being rude, which Soras most definitely has been.

And I especially hate it when people compare people who like things they don't like to the mentally ill.

Mental Illness is not a joke.

It is something very serious.

So, Soras' Argument is not only using fallacious logic to support a biased opinion, but it also personally offends me.

__________________________________________________ _______________

So, While I thank the efforts of others who posted Rainbow Pie Pics in order to raise my mood last night, but they didn't help as much as one would hope.

Could Somepony direct me to a couple of Light and fluffy feel good fics?

Rainbow Pie shipping.

Scootadopt stories.

I'm also willing to read Twidash and Flutterdash if RainbowPie is too hard to find.

maybe something funny would help.

please no dark or drama.

[Forum Explorer]

It's getting a little heated in here, but I'm going to ignore that and focus on something else instead.
I repeat, Fan Fiction isn't a medium, a genre, a style or anything else. It's just literature that is, by definition, both derivative and amateur. If you're getting it published as a legitimate work in it's own right, then it's not really fan fiction anymore, it's a parody, an homage, remix, collaboration or who knows what. If it's not actually derived from an already existing work, drawing meaningful elements themes or components of the sort then it doesn't really count on the fan side of that.

With that in mind, I would say that there is a valid argument to make that fan-fiction is in a very real sense less worthy than other forms of literature, even assuming they are otherwise of comparable quality. A story of the same length and written to the same degree of competence and with the same amount of flair, except with original characters in a distinct and original setting is of innately greater value. Like when comparing a singer who only records existing classics to a singer-songwriter, the former may be entirely more approachable, more easily digested, but the latter is a more meaningful contribution to society or some such pretentious sounding way of describing the idea that I would give it extra cookies/respect.

For lack of a better word I call it a category of literature. And you are correct on what it is.

Now that I would disagree with. The line between fanfiction and professional work can often be nothing more then official approval. The Star Wars EU is a good example of this, or getting something published by the Black Library for a Warhammer novel. Fanfictions can bring a lot of interesting new ideas to the table, or flesh out details and characters the original source can't or wouldn't cover. It's not official yes, and that means it might end up being contradicted, but that doesn't decrease it's inherent quality whatever that may be.

Also how do you determine the value of a work of literature? Is it by entertainment? Or how 'deep' a work is? Do you go by the technical quality of a work? How original a work is? Because a lot of the better fanfics would actually be pretty crappy stories if they were directly translated because a lot of their appeal comes from how they are exploring these characters in a new and interesting way. Like Thanqol's Long Distance, or even Fallout Equestria.

Also that's a bad example, afterall the Beatles started out as a cover band and made some amazing music. I wouldn't say those songs are of lower quality or worth. Honestly I'd be hard pressed to even identify them without some serious research.

[Deadly]

My, what a lovely discussion we have here.

With that in mind, I would say that there is a valid argument to make that fan-fiction is in a very real sense less worthy than other forms of literature, even assuming they are otherwise of comparable quality. A story of the same length and written to the same degree of competence and with the same amount of flair, except with original characters in a distinct and original setting is of innately greater value. Like when comparing a singer who only records existing classics to a singer-songwriter, the former may be entirely more approachable, more easily digested, but the latter is a more meaningful contribution to society or some such pretentious sounding way of describing the idea that I would give it extra cookies/respect.

So ... The latter Discworld novels are inherently of less value than the first Discworld novels?

[erikun]

Could Somepony direct me to a couple of Light and fluffy feel good fics?

Silly stories:
Cloud Stories
Derplicity
Certain Advantages
Martial Bliss
More Than Angel
Yes, Apple Bloom, there *is* a Santa Hooves in time for the holidays!
Mort Takes a Holiday (longer, and not complete)

Whacky, crazy little adventure:
The Big Butterfly Brouhaha

Kinda silly, but with a bit of sadness:
Tales Of The Canterlot Deportation Agency: A Typical Day

Sad, but a good ending:
Fiddlesticks's Farewell

A bit longer, a nice mellow whacky slice-of-life, from the Lunaverse:
Tales of Ponyville

All of them, except Mort and the Lunaverse one, are only a chapter or two long. It shouldn't take long to get through each one.

[Rater202]

My, what a lovely discussion we have here.



So ... The latter Discworld novels are inherently of less value than the first Discworld novels?

Spoiler

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And on that note

Spoiler: Discworld Ponies!

Show

Spoiler: Mrs. Cake as Mrs. Cake

Show

Spoiler: Rincewind The Younicorn.(Warning, Big)

Show

[Gamerlord]

So ... The latter Discworld novels are inherently of less value than the first Discworld novels?

I will fully admit to being a complete ignoramus on the topic of Discworld (It's one of those series I've always been meaning to read but can never seem to get around to actually doing so), but that doesn't seem like a particularly good comparison. Do the more recent novels have the same cast/locations that the earlier ones did? Has there been no improvement in Pratchett's prose? Does he still use the same sort of plots or themes?

Oooh, the cover of comic #17 was revealed:

Spoiler

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Secrets of Star Swirl? Awesome!

Check out that mirror.

Spoiler: Comics

Show

Am I imagining things, or is Luna back to S1 mane?

[Deadly]

I will fully admit to being a complete ignoramus on the topic of Discworld (It's one of those series I've always been meaning to read but can never seem to get around to actually doing so), but that doesn't seem like a particularly good comparison. Do the more recent novels have the exact same cast/locations that the earlier ones did? Has there been no improvement in Pratchett's prose? Does he still use the same sort of plots or themes?

Does fanfiction? Of course not.

Pratchett is writing stories set in the same world, often using the same characters, but in different situations of course. The only difference is that he invented the world and those characters originally, but he is essentially writing his own fanfiction.

Or you could ask if the official MLP comics are inherently of lower value than the show, if you like that one better.

[erikun]

Spoiler: Comics

Show

Am I imagining things, or is Luna back to S1 mane?

Luna in the comics frequently doesn't have the stardust mane, and so she looks more like her S1 version than the more recent one we've seen.