World of Warcraft XVI: Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Orcy Worcey...Stuff

[Traab]

Yeah, I've been doing each zone to completion once I start it, since the story is the chief thing I'm after. I'm glad most of the quests don't end up pointing me to a dungeon or raid (once in awhile a few do, but they all seem to be sidequests and the zone itself has a good resolution without worrying with it.)

Currently doing Uldum since I started it pre-85.

Uldum is fun. I love the Indiana Jones homage quest series. And the actual storyline of the zone is pretty damn sweet.

[The Glyphstone]

I Can't Believe It's Not Raiders Of The Lost Ark is fun....once.

[mistformsquirrl]

I decided to save the Harrison Jones line until later or a different character - but I really enjoyed the main arc of Uldum. Now I'm in Pandaria and I keep wanting to smack General Nazgrimm in the face for being a complete idiot.

I'll grant that Garrosh wouldn't really allow him to back down like he should even if he wanted to, but at this point Nazgrimm just seems hell-bent on making a mess of everything. I can already tell this is only going to end in tears. < . .>

Cool introductory scene though <o.o>/

[ryuplaneswalker]

Yeah, Nazgrim needed a few smacks a great deal earlier, it is really a shame he was not there in the 5.1/5.2 stuff to see what goes down.

The orcs needed a representative in 5.4 outside of Go'el and Saurfang.

[Krazzman]

The Harrison Jones Questchain? I hated it the first time playing through it and the later run-ins with him aren't that much better. But I never liked the Indiana Jones movies anyway.

@Nazgrimm:
I can see why he messes up that much. Garrosh is pretty aggressive and sends you to fight there. He actually loses ANOTHER warzeppelin and let the alliance general flee. Hellbent on not getting the wrath of garrosh... I can see even a General loosing some nerves and behaving wrong... Also it is to see the new face of the Horde. This ramps up throughout Pandaria and throughout the patches.
Dagger in the Dark scenario, the invasion of pandaria, Dark heart of Pandaria, the invasion questchain and so on. You went around OG once these past days? Everywhere are scripted events taking place. Goblins and Trolls being watched closely in their quarters. The Bankers being forced to open the vaults the Warlocktrainers being cussed out and so on.
The message is clear: Everything not part of the "True Horde" is inferior and thus shall be an enemy. Everyone not directly supporting it are just dead weight for the "Iron Horde/True Horde". Blackfuse being one of the few other races that help Garrosh and he is just this accepted due to his crazy inventions. The Iron Juggernaut and those Wheels of Doom in the Garroshencounter proved him worthy.
The Paragons followed the Heart and as such were taken in as a last stand before getting to garrosh as they always served the power which garrosh unearthed.

@Leveling:
We had no time yesterday and thus are still at level 72.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Hilariously Blackfuse is not part of the bilgewater cartel, and is apparently a Trade Prince, the problem I really have with Nazgrim is that he should have been the "orcs in the rebellion character" because that group is WAY underrepresented in a bad way. The trash skipping events really should have happened for both sides and they could have done something to have both Horde/Alliance faction leaders in the galakras fight.

[The Glyphstone]

Hilariously Blackfuse is not part of the bilgewater cartel, and is apparently a Trade Prince, the problem I really have with Nazgrim is that he should have been the "orcs in the rebellion character" because that group is WAY underrepresented in a bad way. The trash skipping events really should have happened for both sides and they could have done something to have both Horde/Alliance faction leaders in the galakras fight.

Wouldn't that be kinda hard, since the Horde faction leader is also the raid's end boss? Vol'jin A) wasn't the Warchief yet, and B) was busy leading his rebels alongside Baine. The whole point of the Galakras fight is supposed to be breaking the Dragonmaw and linking up with Vol'jin, if he's already there the story justification for the fight gets outright silly.

[ryuplaneswalker]

well I mean like..the EK ones, like instead of being Sylvanas/Lorthemar/Whatshisface for horde and Alleria/Varian/Jaina for alliance it should be like

Lor'themar/Varian/Jaina/Nazgrim for both sides, with a mix of the troops for the troops..and Lor'Themar using whatever he gathered up the anima for.

Then like later...Jaina shows up and uses her Thunder King staff powers to like nuke the doors into the underhold, the gnomes and saurfang both get their moments like they do.

Alleria and Sylvanas show up somewhere fighting back to back...making snide comments at each other.

instead of..."X folks from our faction show up, and make it seem that the other faction did jack crap"

[The_Jackal]

Honestly, I find the whole faction rivalry junk shoehorned into the overarching Warcraft story to be tedious and irritating. The idea of fighting a civil war in the midst of an alien invasion might be plausible once, but this is round five (Reign of Chaos, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria).

[ryuplaneswalker]

Yes it is stupid and should never have been in the game, but that mistake was made a decade ago and we gotta live with it.

[Sylthia]

Yes it is stupid and should never have been in the game, but that mistake was made a decade ago and we gotta live with it.

Maybe they could try shaking things up next X-pac and letting you do dungeons with the opposing faction. It would make sense to come together for the greater good.

[ryuplaneswalker]

eh people would have a cow if they did that, I just think that the 5.3/5.4 plot was one of the worst handled thing in the details I have seen in a long time from an MMO.

Few orcs are shown in the Rebellion, few goblins are shown, few forsaken are shown, alliance side none of them are shown, the items that you acquired for your faction are never brought up.

No really...Jaina has a staff..empowered by the throne of thunder and she can't use that to Nuke Galakras out of the sky? There is a balance to be achieved in NPC interaction in MMO fights, Thrall was too much in one way, SoO is far to much in the other.

[mistformsquirrl]

So, last night I ran the entire Frozen Halls series of dungeons solo - initially it was solely because I wanted my Battered Hilt - but honestly? Awesome set of dungeons. Totally worth the time taken just to see them. I'm going to have to solo some other dungeons just for story purposes I think.

In the meantime, I've been grinding the Pit of Saron for my Battered Hilt; no luck yet, but it's only a matter of time.

[Karoht]

So, last night I ran the entire Frozen Halls series of dungeons solo - initially it was solely because I wanted my Battered Hilt - but honestly? Awesome set of dungeons. Totally worth the time taken just to see them. I'm going to have to solo some other dungeons just for story purposes I think.

In the meantime, I've been grinding the Pit of Saron for my Battered Hilt; no luck yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Get a friend or two and run Ulduar. You can solo most of it as a DK, but it's still a bit tricky in a few spots, made much smoother by just bringing 2-3 people with you. For example, the first boss Flame Leviathan can be solo'd but it's not worth the effort. Bring 2-3 people and the guy is a joke. There are a few fights like that, Yogg Saron being one of them.

But before you do Ulduar, do Halls of Stone followed by Halls of Lightning (and the majority of the quest lines of the Storm Peaks, especially anything to do with the Frost Giants, Thorim and Loken, if you haven't already).

Happy hunting.

[Seerow]

Get a friend or two and run Ulduar. You can solo most of it as a DK, but it's still a bit tricky in a few spots, made much smoother by just bringing 2-3 people with you. For example, the first boss Flame Leviathan can be solo'd but it's not worth the effort. Bring 2-3 people and the guy is a joke. There are a few fights like that, Yogg Saron being one of them.

But before you do Ulduar, do Halls of Stone followed by Halls of Lightning (and the majority of the quest lines of the Storm Peaks, especially anything to do with the Frost Giants, Thorim and Loken, if you haven't already).

Happy hunting.

Note: Yogg-Saron can be hard even with 3-4 people if you don't know the mechanics. Seriously I've gone into that fight with a group of 6 geared 90s and wiped for hours, and gone in with me and one or two others and one shotted it. It's one of the few Wrath fights you can't just power through.

[Traab]

It honestly wouldnt be world of warcraft anymore if both sides just made peace. Its one thing to unite even somewhat in the face of a greater threat like archimonde and mt hyjal, but that was tried in lich king and the burning legion agents screwed that up nicely at the wrathgate.

[Karoht]

@Faction War
I've often said they need to create a neutral faction. A group of people who are fed up with the faction war exchange who wish to be part of neither the Alliance nor the Horde. But, the logistics of that would be troublesome.

Neutral races such as the Pandaren are probably what we are going to see more of in future (So said the mighty Ghostcrawler before he left, as did Metzen and Pardo), but if there were an option to stay neutral as a supported means of playing the game, that would be pretty cool. Or if perhaps at some point after seeing X levels worth of content one could chose to be Neutral.
IE-Stabby the Tauren Warrior starts out at level 1. After a few brief moments of wishing to be one of the awesome Tauren Rogues, Stabby sets out, does quests, does dungeons, and levels up to 80. After the Wrathgate event, Stabby busts out his table, tableflips, and says "I'm out. Peace yo!" and undergoes some other event or chain of events (combo of solo scenarios and open world quests) and discovers the Neutral town of Neutralopolis. Filled with others who conscienciously object/abstain from the Horde/Alliance struggle, and only work towards the betterment and protection of Azeroth as a whole.

The Problems:
-Would it be a paid service option? Why? Why not?
-3rd Faction could potentially destabilize the raiding community and the PvP community. Would they even be allowed to PvP in Battlegrounds or Arenas?
-How would it affect servers who already have a major faction imbalance?
-How would grouping work? Could you group with Alliance/Horde or just other neutrals? How would it affect the queue times?
-Would racials need to be rebalanced? Again?
-Would certain races ONLY be Neutral? Would some existing races be excluded from going Neutral? (IE-After Garrosh, maybe Orcs aren't trusted enough to be Neutral for a while)
-Would neutral open up new class options to certain races? (IE-Tauren Rogues are too silly for the Horde, but the Neutrals don't judge)
-Holiday events?
-Story reason for this faction to form are numerous, but audiences tend to need a single unification motive/event. If they've been around for a while but in secret, they need to be slotted in somewhere without stepping on the Lore. If they are new, they need to write an event to announce it story wise, and they would need to involve them in other story events as time goes on. Something like the Dominance Offensive would instead need 3 camps instead of 2, NPC's have to have their aggro AI adapted to include the 3rd faction. Lots of things that sound easy on paper, but make for a mountain of work when added up, especially if it requires engine-based changes.

I think it would be a fun idea, but a nightmare for the developers. Probably too big a change to impliment now, and after Cataclysm they are highly cautious of large scale changes. And as fun as it sounds, it might not actually work out to be all that fun or interesting as we think.

[ryuplaneswalker]

a Neutral faction would not really solve the problems with their being 2 "antagonistic good guy factions" one of the major problem I have with it is that they need to constantly pass around the Idiot ball to someone to keep it going. Especially at this point, there is zero reason for the horde and alliance to fight.

[Traab]

1) I would hope it wouldnt be a paid service. At least, not paid beyond buying whatever expansion pack it comes with.

2) Im not sure how a third faction would have any effect on raiding since chances are good the % of classes that go neutral would likely be similar to the other factions. Meaning, I dont think people who play warriors, for example, would somehow be unwilling to be neutral. As for pvp, they are a neutral faction, so battlegrounds, which are small scale faction wars, would be right out. Unless they added in a new one that has the other factions against them for daring to try and secede from their sides. (It WOULD work out to a civil war against both sides in all honesty) Arena would make storyline sense though. Just because they dont want to be at war with the horde or alliance doesnt mean they are pacifists.

3) Honestly? I have no idea. It would likely make the under represented faction even emptier, but with the server zone instance thing, thats not exactly something that matters much anymore. Maybe be an issue with the auction house though. Harder to find materials and whatnot, that sort of thing.

4) At first I was thinking neutrals only but then you mentioned queue timers, which would be increased for everyone. So imo, neutrals group with anyone. This should drop the overall timers because the neutral players would be ffrom both factions which means extra people for both sides to group with.

5) Honestly? I dont know enough about raiding to be able to come up with a combo of horde and alliance racials that would be unbalanced. And if the neutrals can group with either side, it would be fair since both sides can get them.

6) A Neutral only race could be interesting, use it as the seed to start up the faction. They draw in all the disaffected people from both sides and give them a safe haven in exchange for putting aside their prejudice etc etc etc. Restricting access to certain races is probably the fastest way to create board screaming.

7) Now thats an odd one. It has potential, but there are probably technical reasons why doing that would be a royal pain in the ass for devs.

8) Nah, they would likely have the same holidays, at best with a refluff to add their inclusiveness shading to the events.

9) I said it earlier, but I like the idea of a new race showing up, declaring itself neutral, and inviting those tired of constant warfare to join them. Kind of like shattrah. No fighting allowed dangit. Only, you know, without the whole aldor scryer faction choice, its just the one. As for a quest chain, there are up sides and down sides to it. For example, what level would you have to be to start this?

Maybe make a level appropriate solo scenario chain? So there I am in the gnome starting area when I decide I dont want to be another cog in the war wheel, I want to be neutral. Well I start up the quest chain and get to run through all these solo scenarios that work for me at level 1-5. Or I am a world weary warrior. I helped kill onyxia, slaughtered her brother nefarion, fought at the wrath gate, etc etc etc. I am 90 and tired of war. So I go through a nice level 90 appropriate solo scale scenario.

[Icewraith]

What is needed is a way to run pve content with the friends you met who it turns out play the opposite faction without having to make a new character (presumably the character you have is the one you want to run on) or faction change (because you already have a raiding schedule set up with people on THIS faction).

Ran firelands for Xmog/funsies on the Priest last night. Shadow is HILARIOUS on Alys. I had the full flying buff +heroism at one point, I was sitting on mind flay almost like I sat on heroic strike while warrior tanking (things that actually hit hard) in BC. (This was the point I actually mousewheel bound heroic strike and cleave to prevent an oncoming case of carpal tunnel and dead keyboard).

If I had been a bit less rusty on the shadow rotation and flying on a caster (I used to fly in fury on my warrior and the rage gain was amazing) I can't even imagine what my dps would have been, as it was I did double the damage of the other guy who went up with me at the start.

Probably still my favorite fight ever to date, although spoils is growing on me for the tank role.

[Karoht]

a Neutral faction would not really solve the problems with their being 2 "antagonistic good guy factions" one of the major problem I have with it is that they need to constantly pass around the Idiot ball to someone to keep it going. Especially at this point, there is zero reason for the horde and alliance to fight.

Land and resource tensions are unresolved, there are agent provocateurs on both sides (most of which are gone with the fall of the Twilight Hammer, but there are outliers left), both sides have had misinfo cause conflicts before, bloodlust and agression rather than clear judgement have also caused conflicts (Camp Taurajo gets forgotten about all too often), and finally we have good old fashioned hatred and revenge.

After Garrosh did the damage he did, along with the Iron Horde pushing in, it isn't Idiot Ball behavior to be mad at Orcs who keep being right at the center of various conflicts. It was idiot ball behvior when King Wrynn was an outright racist and wanted all of the Horde dead, even more peaceful races like the Tauren he called abominations. It was non-idiot ball when conflict escalated all through Mists.
It might have been idiot ball writing when Camp Tarajo (filled with women, children, and craftsmen) which was hardly a military outpost was attacked. Supposedly in retaliation to Theramoore and Southshore. Depends on what you call 'justified but misdirected anger' really.

I don't think they need to 'pass the idiot ball' to keep the conflict going. In real life we have worse justifications for violent conflict all the time. Heck, WoW has even parodied a few of them. The incursion into Pandaria and the land grab and the skirmishes leading up to the eventual Siege of Orgrimmar was a fine example of them using something other than the idiot ball to motivate the tension and conflict.

Of course, then we have Jaina and the rabid fervor which feels (to me) to really be out of character for her. The Heel-Face-Turn she got in Tides of War certainly gives her justification to be angry, maybe even bloodthirsty, but not stupid. Gone is the cunning that made Jaina an interesting character. To me, THAT is the idiot ball in someone's hands just to stir things up.

Yes, war is stupid and pointless. Which is why the question "Why do we fight?" has such weight to it. It's why answering the question over the course of an expansion made for such an excellent story. We all know it's pointless and stupid. So do most of the denizens of Azeroth. And at the end of the expansion, here we are, we've put down a warlord and replaced him with a leader we hope will have honor and sense, one who had already answered "Why do we fight?" and even it's follow up question "What is worth fighting for?"

[ryuplaneswalker]

I don't think they need to 'pass the idiot ball' to keep the conflict going. In real life we have worse justifications for violent conflict all the time. Heck, WoW has even parodied a few of them. The incursion into Pandaria and the land grab and the skirmishes leading up to the eventual Siege of Orgrimmar was a fine example of them using something other than the idiot ball to motivate the tension and conflict.

Yes because Garrosh going from "Warrior with Honor, if a bit headstrong" to "Complete Racist" is not at all bad writing, and the current conflict (Wrathgate to Now) was started by the Wrathgate, which was stupid incarnate.

And you Mention the Orcs as the center of the conflict, MORE bad writing on blizzards part since the majority of Garrosh's forces in the Siege are Dragomaw, and Kork'ron, which is supposedly mostly Blackrock Orcs now, but god forbid they remember Blackrock Orcs are grey skinned and not green. The orcs that are the badguys now, are the same orcs that have been badguys since Vanilla/BC respectively, there is nothing at this point that can not be handled by getting the faction leaders together and having them actually discuss things.

Yes they could have the alliance and horde whine at each other about Lordaeron and Gilneas, but at this point after both the Horde and the Alliance allied against the True Horde, I would demand a Neutral faction to join simply because it means both sides are lead by freaking children.

[Kish]

Yes because Garrosh going from "Warrior with Honor, if a bit headstrong" to "Complete Racist" is not at all bad writing, and the current conflict (Wrathgate to Now) was started by the Wrathgate, which was stupid incarnate.

You know, I wonder, ryuplaneswalker. What would you think if the war situation in Pandaria was flipped around? That is, if Garrosh's fluctuating personality stabilized at the honorable warrior he was in the Stonetalon Mountains, the final raid of Mists of Pandaria was Siege of Stormwind, and the final boss a Varian who never really moved out of the "genocidal racist" mode he was in when he was calling tauren abominations, with Garrosh insisting Varian had to go to Pandaria to stand trial rather than being killed out of hand?

[orrion]

What is needed is a way to run pve content with the friends you met who it turns out play the opposite faction without having to make a new character (presumably the character you have is the one you want to run on) or faction change (because you already have a raiding schedule set up with people on THIS faction).

I've always hated the faction separation.

I see the point from the meta perspective of the Alliance vs. Horde, but I've really never seen the reason why it applied to groups or raids or chatting.

In Everquest my high elf hated dark elves and such, but that didn't stop me from grouping with my dark elf Shadowknight tanking buddy.

[Sylthia]

I've always hated the faction separation.

I see the point from the meta perspective of the Alliance vs. Horde, but I've really never seen the reason why it applied to groups or raids or chatting.

In Everquest my high elf hated dark elves and such, but that didn't stop me from grouping with my dark elf Shadowknight tanking buddy.

I wouldn't even mind grouping up with friends of the opposite faction by using the illusion sort of thing in some of the Caverns of Time dungeons.

[ryuplaneswalker]

You know, I wonder, ryuplaneswalker. What would you think if the war situation in Pandaria was flipped around? That is, if Garrosh's fluctuating personality stabilized at the honorable warrior he was in the Stonetalon Mountains, the final raid of Mists of Pandaria was Siege of Stormwind, and the final boss a Varian who never really moved out of the "genocidal racist" mode he was in when he was calling tauren abominations, with Garrosh insisting Varian had to go to Pandaria to stand trial rather than being killed out of hand?

Well, if Varian went super nutso and tried to use the sha? yeah we would have to stab him in the face too, as for the Trial, yes we probably should put someone on trial for the crimes they committed, and since there is no Geneva convention in Azeroth...the only real "crime" Garrosh did was defiling the holy site of Panderia.

[Kish]

Well, if Varian went super nutso and tried to use the sha? yeah we would have to stab him in the face too, as for the Trial, yes we probably should put someone on trial for the crimes they committed, and since there is no Geneva convention in Azeroth...the only real "crime" Garrosh did was defiling the holy site of Panderia.

I mean, would you consider that better writing?

[orrion]

Well, if Varian went super nutso and tried to use the sha? yeah we would have to stab him in the face too, as for the Trial, yes we probably should put someone on trial for the crimes they committed, and since there is no Geneva convention in Azeroth...the only real "crime" Garrosh did was defiling the holy site of Panderia.

I'd say releasing Sha and harnessing an Old God's power are crimes and go a little beyond defiling a holy site.

[Hyena]

Are you guys still arguing about? Kore is The Man. The Evil Anvilicious Human (even if he's a dwarf). Remember the hunter from Bambi? Yeah.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you guys still arguing about? Kore is The Man. The Evil Anvilicious Human (even if he's a dwarf). Remember the hunter from Bambi? Yeah.

Methinks you got your threads crossed there.