[DSP/PF] Magic of Incarna Playtest Open

[Prime32]

When I tried rewriting incarnum myself a while back, one thing I did was remove the Chakra Bind mechanics from the introduction and instead make them a class feature of the incarnate. Other classes got stuff like "Chakra Binds (Su): At 4th level a totemist gains the Chakra Binds class feature as an incarnate. His effective incarnate level is equal to his totemist level -3. If he has levels in multiple classes which provide this class feature, his effective incarnate levels stack.". I hoped this would make things easier to parse, since I've seen a lot of people get confused about when exactly chakras come into things.

Alternately, on the issue of having to keep track of both chakra slots and maximum binds at once... what about making chakra slots a function of character level? It would help out multiclass characters a lot. Heck, you could even merge it with the essence capacity progression into four named tiers - e.g. a level 1-5 character is a Novice meldshaper; Novice meldshapers have an essence capacity of 1 and access to the Head/Feet/Hands chakras. Again, this would make the essence capacity rules more visible, especially since you can reference the tiers elsewhere in the document to draw attention to them.

If we reach the level of interest where I get the opportunity to add the PrC's I want to this book, and Chris is okay with me playing in his yard, I really want at least one PrC for veilweaver/initiator characters. Something involving binding Veils to your weapon and investing Essence in maneuvers. I've got plans, yo.

I figure you're in the right thematic space for astras, though maybe that would work better as a soulknife or even cleric hybrid.

Lastly, there's some fluff in the vizier Paths which refers to "the flow of chakra(s)" where it should be referring to the flow of Essence. This isn't Naruto.

EDIT: Mechanics I'd like to see

Spoiler

Show

Expanding on how 3.5's essentia damage converted to Wis damage if you had no essentia, let characters sacrifice essence to absorb ability damage (i.e. convert any kind of ability damage to essence damage). While not a huge benefit it gives essence more fluff weight, and helps any characters who end up with more essence than they can use.

A Defensive Roll type class feature which lets you survive lethal attacks by blocking them with one of your veils, causing it to unshape. Because fighting on even as your weapons and armor shatter to pieces is badass.

[danzibr]

With all this talk of completely removing chakra bind slots, I wonder... could this work well?

Assuming you still want to get cool new abilities as you level up and all that, the only way to do this would be either keying it off of essence or veil weaver level. And in fact, there's already some of this going on.

[Seerow]

With all this talk of completely removing chakra bind slots, I wonder... could this work well?

Assuming you still want to get cool new abilities as you level up and all that, the only way to do this would be either keying it off of essence or veil weaver level. And in fact, there's already some of this going on.

I'm curious how they're going to change it to remove the bind slots as well. Will it also involve removing the soulshaping slots? Are there still going to be different levels in chakra binds? (The feats indicate there's at least 4 distinct intended power levels of chakra binds, even if the bind effects themselves weren't consistent).

Also, is "Get a Trumpet Archon at level 16" still a thing? Because I want to reitterate just how silly getting a 14th level Cleric through a low level chakra bind is. The hound archon isn't so bad, and I could see it remaining viable if it got some sort of scaling bonus from meldshaper level in addition to essence investment, but right now the way it goes is you can shape the meld at level 1, and it's okay for a couple levels. It then becomes useless for a while. Then you gain the ability to bind it, and it becomes awesome for a couple levels. Then your essence bonuses stop keeping up and it falls behind again for a half dozen levels. Then suddenly it's awesome again all the way to 20 (because even at 20 a trumpet archon with some essence buffs is useful, and 14th level cleric casting is always handy to have).

[danzibr]

I'm curious how they're going to change it to remove the bind slots as well. Will it also involve removing the soulshaping slots? Are there still going to be different levels in chakra binds? (The feats indicate there's at least 4 distinct intended power levels of chakra binds, even if the bind effects themselves weren't consistent).

Also, is "Get a Trumpet Archon at level 16" still a thing? Because I want to reitterate just how silly getting a 14th level Cleric through a low level chakra bind is. The hound archon isn't so bad, and I could see it remaining viable if it got some sort of scaling bonus from meldshaper level in addition to essence investment, but right now the way it goes is you can shape the meld at level 1, and it's okay for a couple levels. It then becomes useless for a while. Then you gain the ability to bind it, and it becomes awesome for a couple levels. Then your essence bonuses stop keeping up and it falls behind again for a half dozen levels. Then suddenly it's awesome again all the way to 20 (because even at 20 a trumpet archon with some essence buffs is useful, and 14th level cleric casting is always handy to have).

Oh, I don't think it's actually going to happen. A few people suggested it, and I was wondering how it could be carried out.

As for the archon business, it is currently op. How do the other like veils compare?

Edit: I can't check for myself atm.

[Psyren]

Note that Ssalarn has said on the DSP boards that he prefers to start powerful and scale down than the reverse. So the angel and some other stuff may get nerfed.

[Seerow]

Oh, I don't think it's actually going to happen. A few people suggested it, and I was wondering how it could be carried out.

Basic current problem is: MoI is needlessly overcomplicated. Magic Item body slots can be used to connect the fluff to the crunch sometimes (ie a claw granting veil being bound to hands, that sort of thing), but other times they simply don't make sense. In addition to this, they don't contribute meaningfully to balance. A few of the high-slot chakra binds are powerful, but the most powerful one by far that I found in the doc is available as a low level bind. What they do is create more fiddly things to manage and keep track of, and make it more annoying for a character to pick out what they want to be capable of doing at the start of the day, as they are balancing body slots, limited number of shaped melds, a different limited number of bound melds, and only being able to bind melds to certain chakras. Throw in the Chakra binding locations being different from the shape slots (to facilitate the ability to bind a single meld to multiple different chakras), and things just get weird really fast.

DSP has toned that down a bit, by making the Chakras/Veil locations the same, and also correspond with the relevant magic item slot, but it is still a convoluted mess. It is a functioning system, and balanced, but it's roughly as intuitive as a game of chess where player moves are determined by a roullette wheel.


As for how you could make it work without having a bunch of different bind slots? In order of keeping closest to original MoI to furthest away:

-Soulmelds retain a slot where they are shaped. Binding is now divided into 4 categories, which unlock at appropriate levels, in addition to gaining more bind slots. You gain 1-3 lowest, then 1-3 of the next, then 1-3 of the one after that, then 1-3 of the highest (probably ending at 2 across the board, but possibly 3s for the lower ones). A single soulmeld can have multiple binds at multiple levels, but most still only have one bind option.

-As above, but soulmelds can be shaped to any slot desired.

-As above, but rather than tracking each chakra category separately for how many you can bind, you just get a flat number of bound chakras, and as you unlock new categories you can bind as many of that category as you once.

-As above, but binding higher level chakras costs multiple chakra binds. This is combined with gaining more binds overall, so a character could have a handful of high level binds, or a bunch of low level binds.

-As above, but instead of having different levels of chakra bindings, a bound chakra scales more as you invest more essence. So a high level character who can invest more essence gets much more effect from a bound chakra than a lower level character (possibly even unlocking new abilities for a chakra bind at certain essence points)



Probably several of these suggestions wouldn't work. I'm certain objections could be found to all of them by someone who wanted to poke at it. But in general the trend from top to bottom is to make the system easier to grasp and use for a new player, instead of fiddling about so much with item slots (especially since the veils no longer block you from using a magic item, and the only class we've seen so far actually explicitly mixes them for greater effect).

As for the archon business, it is currently op. How do the other like veils compare?

Edit: I can't check for myself atm.

The other veils are basically along the same lines of what you'd expect from an Incarnate. Nothing anywhere near as impressive. Even if you stripped the Trumpet Archon's casting, it's still probably more powerful than most binds. I mean seriously, among the competition for that exact same slot is the ability to improve a gain/gore attack. A different option is gain some skill bonuses (Sense Motive and Perception. I'd have to check but I think the Archons have those trained). The last option is to turn a shaken debuff into staggered, which is actually pretty nice, but still nowhere near on the same level.

edit:

Note that Ssalarn has said on the DSP boards that he prefers to start powerful and scale down than the reverse. So the angel and some other stuff may get nerfed.

This concerns me, because while the Angel is clearly way overboard, a large portion of these abilities are fairly weak by the standards of Magic or Psionics. Or even what I've seen of their new Path of War material.

I mean look at Vestments of the Maharaja. This is an ability that doesn't come online until level 16. It lets you mind control 100hit dice of creatures. Which is really cool and awesome. But if you give them a command that violates their nature it instantly breaks and they're immune to the effect. Then it only lasts for 16 hours.

Seriously at this level Dominate Person has been online for 7 levels, lasts literally 24 times longer, has no hit dice limits, and at best gives the target an extra save if you go against their wishes. Similar comparisons can be made for Create Undead, and other forms of minionmancy.

Similarly, almost all of the damage dealing powers in here are on a scale that makes the Warlock look like a great damage hero. Average typically capping out around 9d6 as a standard action at level 20. And the last update I saw referenced nerfing damage on an ability.

Or how about the Spell Resistance, that comes online as a 13th level bind granting at best SR22. That ability ends at level 20 with at best SR25. Meanwhile the Shoulder binding (coming online 4 levels earlier) gives you a miss chance against Ranged attacks that scales up as high as 65%, which is pretty great.


Yes, I called out the Archon companion thing because it's very obviously too strong. But there's a whole lot in here that's on the very weak end. If this is "Starting strong then whittle down" I'm not sure I see the point.

[malonkey1]

Well I'm gonna weigh and say I think the Chakra binding should be kept, but it shouldn't lock out magic items.

[stack]

Well, a master summoner at level 17 can summon plenty of trumpet archons for a pretty long time, so having one all day (and thus not getting a new set of spells) doesn't seem ridiculous at 16. Powerful, certainly, but not crazy.

[Psyren]

I mean look at Vestments of the Maharaja. This is an ability that doesn't come online until level 16. It lets you mind control 100hit dice of creatures. Which is really cool and awesome. But if you give them a command that violates their nature it instantly breaks and they're immune to the effect. Then it only lasts for 16 hours.

This thing is effectively Mass Dominate Monster, so yeah, I actually would call that powerful for level 16.

Also, for a lot of monsters, fighting each other is very much in their nature; animals, magical beasts, evil humanoids, giants, dragons, monstrous humanoids, aberrations etc.

I think the immunity should be 1/24hrs rather than forever and I'd also like a HD limit on a single target so you can't walk up and dominate the BBEG or a deity's avatar or something.

[Eldest]

Once both Path of War and Magic of Incarna gets fully published and their "feet wet" so to say, we will naturally introduce ways to "cross over" between them. There will be a psionic discipline, ways to have an Aegis or Soulknife with veils, mystic warriors who draw upon ancient maneuvers and weave veils.

But before that happens, we need to actually finish what we are already doing, which is playtesting things (here) and publish them (here and PoW).

While at the same time creating more awesome psionic material for those that enjoy that. :)

Ok, the potential cross-over things made me mentally start geeking out a lot. (I'm in physics, so if I started to physically geek out I would disrupt the lecture. >.>)

And adding to the chorus of people asking for you to please change at least Incarna to something else. Preferably something that doesn't start with an I.

[Seerow]

This thing is effectively Mass Dominate Monster, so yeah, I actually would call that powerful for level 16

If it were actually Mass Dominate Monster, sure.

The problem is the shorter duration and all of the other restrictions that dominate monster doesn't worry about. Also the HD limit. A Wizard who prepares lots of dominates can have a ton of dominated minions effectively indefinitely. A character who uses this gets their targets for less than a day, at which point they all break out and aren't going to be happy about being mind controlled.

The duration alone makes the ability's utility very limited. Add in the "Can't make them do anything against their nature" and it's downright sad.

I think the immunity should be 1/24hrs rather than forever and I'd also like a HD limit on a single target so you can't walk up and dominate the BBEG or a deity's avatar or something.

For that just specify it is a mind-affecting effect. That's the sort of thing that will likely get houseruled in on the fly anyway ("I don't care if it's not tagged as mind-affecting, you're literally getting mind control!"), and stops those issues dead in their tracks.

[Psyren]

If it were actually Mass Dominate Monster, sure.

The problem is the shorter duration and all of the other restrictions that dominate monster doesn't worry about.

Does it really matter that you don't have them in your pocket for days on end? It's still an autowin if you land it, and a two-point swing per failed save in any fight. (Their side loses a combatant, yours gains one.) Yeah you don't have a pet demon/hydra for weeks or whatever, but for a T3 class this is still pretty impressive. And if you're using it on 1-3 targets the HD limit might as well not be there.

Also the HD limit. A Wizard who prepares lots of dominates can have a ton of dominated minions effectively indefinitely. A character who uses this gets their targets for less than a day, at which point they all break out and aren't going to be happy about being mind controlled.

Eh, just command them to fall asleep - sleeping is in almost anything's nature, if they have a mind to begin with - and have the beatstick CdG them.

And I agree it should be mind-affecting.

[Ssalarn]

This thing is effectively Mass Dominate Monster, so yeah, I actually would call that powerful for level 16.

Also, for a lot of monsters, fighting each other is very much in their nature; animals, magical beasts, evil humanoids, giants, dragons, monstrous humanoids, aberrations etc.

I think the immunity should be 1/24hrs rather than forever and I'd also like a HD limit on a single target so you can't walk up and dominate the BBEG or a deity's avatar or something.

These things you speak of.... They are in the works.

As to Vestments of the Maharaja- the ability is based on the effects of a Rod of Rulership, which has a CL 20 requirement and crumbles to dust after 8 hours of use, soooo...... If I made it any more powerful, it would definitely be stepping into an area where people would be telling me it's OP, and they would be right. I am going to fix the reset rate on it though, and cap the max hit die of any single creature it can affect.
I also do not agree that Avatar of Light is OP (except maybe at 1st and 2nd level, there is an argument to be made there). If anything, I'm concerned it doesn't keep up well enough compared to what a Summoner, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard/Sorcerer can put on the field at the same levels.
Damage-dealing Veils are getting a re-tweak. The system for progression was based on the original materials, but I absolutely agree it starts strong and then piddles out way too early. The most likely fix for this though, is going to be that most damage-dealing Veils do nothing until Essence is invested, and Essence investment scales at a somewhat exponential rate ( 1 Essence = 1 damage die, 2 Essence = 3 damage die, 3 Essence = 5 damage die, 4 Essence = 7 damage die, 5 Essence = 9 damage die, 6 Essence = 11, 7 Essence = 13, 8 Essence = 15). That matches up with the systems fluid nature, and 15 damage die for abilities that are all pretty much at-will at that point is solid. Not earth-shatterlingly amazing, but it won't run out on you, and serves as a solid addition to the other available abilities.

[Seerow]

As to Vestments of the Maharaja- the ability is based on the effects of a Rod of Rulership, which has a CL 20 requirement and crumbles to dust after 8 hours of use, soooo...... If I made it any more powerful, it would definitely be stepping into an area where people would be telling me it's OP, and they would be right. I am going to fix the reset rate on it though, and cap the max hit die of any single creature it can affect.

The CL requirement isn't particularly relevant. It's a 60,000gp item. And it's made using a 3rd-4th level spell (Charm Monster). More importantly, that's an item I've never heard of anyone going out of their way to make.

Once again, I'm comparing it to what a mid-high level caster is capable of. And in those terms, it's horribly weak. I'd rather see the hit dice limit come down more and some of those other restrictions get lifted/reduced, to make it more generally useful. At 16th level getting say 40hd of dominated creatures is comprable to a Wizard memorizing Dominate a couple times a month, or using Create Undead.

I also do not agree that Avatar of Light is OP (except maybe at 1st and 2nd level, there is an argument to be made there). If anything, I'm concerned it doesn't keep up well enough compared to what a Summoner, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard/Sorcerer can put on the field at the same levels.

The main issue with the Avatar of Light is that you get a full blown Trumpet Archon. If your plan is to use the Archon as a beatstick, then yes, it's going to be weak.

But you cannot overlook the fact that at level 16 you are getting a full blown 14th level cleric's casting, with a better base chasis and higher stats, as a minion. That's a really big deal. Taking away the spellcasting from the Lantern Archon might be okay. Alternatively, keeping it as a Hound Archon after binding it, but have it scale better with essence.

On the other hand though, you are right. I am being hypocritical here. If I was going to compare to a caster (like I did with Maharaja), at level 16 Planar Ally gets you a Lantern Archon plus some other 4hd creature thrown in the bargain. But that has the cost of 9,000gp for to get them for a day, compared to having one all the time for free.

Damage-dealing Veils are getting a re-tweak. The system for progression was based on the original materials, but I absolutely agree it starts strong and then piddles out way too early. The most likely fix for this though, is going to be that most damage-dealing Veils do nothing until Essence is invested, and Essence investment scales at a somewhat exponential rate ( 1 Essence = 1 damage die, 2 Essence = 3 damage die, 3 Essence = 5 damage die, 4 Essence = 7 damage die, 5 Essence = 9 damage die, 6 Essence = 11, 7 Essence = 13, 8 Essence = 15). That matches up with the systems fluid nature, and 15 damage die for abilities that are all pretty much at-will at that point is solid. Not earth-shatterlingly amazing, but it won't run out on you, and serves as a solid addition to the other available abilities.

This would be better (though I will note that progression isn't actually exponential, an actual exponential increase would probably be too much). Though I would like to see some more that are more like the Ditch-Digger gauntlets, with a moderate cooldown period but more effective in general.

Also I'd definitely start with at least 1-2 dice. Remember you're only getting 8 essence invested if you blow a feat on it, so for the most part you're capping out at 13d6. Starting with 2d6 with 1 essence at level 1 and scaling up to 14d6 isn't going to break the game. Even 3d6/15d6 would be reasonable. And someone who wants to blow a feat to get up to 17d6 is welcome to it, they're still going to be below even a casual caster's blasting spells, but will feel like they're getting something out of that investment.

[danzibr]

Damage-dealing Veils are getting a re-tweak. The system for progression was based on the original materials, but I absolutely agree it starts strong and then piddles out way too early. The most likely fix for this though, is going to be that most damage-dealing Veils do nothing until Essence is invested, and Essence investment scales at a somewhat exponential rate ( 1 Essence = 1 damage die, 2 Essence = 3 damage die, 3 Essence = 5 damage die, 4 Essence = 7 damage die, 5 Essence = 9 damage die, 6 Essence = 11, 7 Essence = 13, 8 Essence = 15). That matches up with the systems fluid nature, and 15 damage die for abilities that are all pretty much at-will at that point is solid. Not earth-shatterlingly amazing, but it won't run out on you, and serves as a solid addition to the other available abilities.

This would be better (though I will note that progression isn't actually exponential, an actual exponential increase would probably be too much). Though I would like to see some more that are more like the Ditch-Digger gauntlets, with a moderate cooldown period but more effective in general.

Also I'd definitely start with at least 1-2 dice. Remember you're only getting 8 essence invested if you blow a feat on it, so for the most part you're capping out at 13d6. Starting with 2d6 with 1 essence at level 1 and scaling up to 14d6 isn't going to break the game. Even 3d6/15d6 would be reasonable. And someone who wants to blow a feat to get up to 17d6 is welcome to it, they're still going to be below even a casual caster's blasting spells, but will feel like they're getting something out of that investment.

Right. That's linear progression.

But this is *essence* we're talking about. Presumably for 1 essence this is an extra die on top of the base damage.

[Seerow]

But this is *essence* we're talking about. Presumably for 1 essence this is an extra die on top of the base damage.

Read his post again. Specifically this line:

The most likely fix for this though, is going to be that most damage-dealing Veils do nothing until Essence is invested

[danzibr]

Read his post again. Specifically this line:

My bad. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you then.

[Ssalarn]

I realized as I was typing that exponential progression was going to be waaaaayyyyyy too much and changed it to a linear scale on odd-numbered bumps without going back back and changing what I'd already typed :P

Currently I've gotten a lot of feedback indicating that the Vizier's damage veils are too strong at 1st level and too weak at levels past 12, so I'm trying to spread that potential out a bit.

[Ssalarn]

Changelog:

Gorget of the Wyrm damage progression and neck bind changed to scale better with level.

Heart of the Wight Chakra Bind changed to grant Channel Resistance equal to Essence invested.

Horns of the Minotaur Esseince investment now increases damage by +2 instead of +1.

Stare of the Ghaele changed to only affect any give creature once every 24 hours. Duration increased to 1d6+1 rounds.

Storm Gauntlets damage-scaling adjusted to be more relevant over all levels of play.

Vestments of the Maharaja adjusted to prevent affecting creatures with hit die greater than the wearer's, and ability can now affect a previously affected creature after 24 hours.

Nomenclature added to indicate what levels binds are gained for all Veils ( for example, [V6] in a veils bind entry indicates that that bind is gained at Vizier level 6).

[Person_Man]

Having read through it, I just have to say that I wholeheartedly endorse your work, and look forward to ordering it as soon as it's available.

[Ssalarn]

Having read through it, I just have to say that I wholeheartedly endorse your work, and look forward to ordering it as soon as it's available.

I take that as absolutely the highest compliment. Thank you!

And, on that note, let me introduce you to round 1 of the second veilweaving class, the Daevic. Let me know what you think!


***EDIT*** You may notice that he's got all of one Body Veil right now. That's because I've gone back and forth on him getting Body Veils at all, and how powerful his capstone should be. After chatting with a few peeps I decided to bring them back in, so expect to see some more Veils, particularly 3 additional Body Veils, as soon as I finish re-tweaking them.

[danzibr]

Exciting!

At a glance... Cha? Sort of fits them thematically, I guess.

And if this is supposed to replace Totemist, I don't see it. A mere 2 veils which grant natural weapons?

I'll have to take a closer look when I can.

EDIT: Alright, I got to read some more. I'll go from the top down. Disorganized and all that.

• Flavor: Neat. Binder + Incarnum.
• Essence Capacity unchanged. I still disapprove, but no matter.
• They get the feet bind first? I find that strange. A primarily melee class getting what you imagine would increase mobility (then again, I haven't read the veils yet, of course). Interesting. Bad, good, I dunno.
• Not as much Improved Essence Capacity as Vizier. That's okay, they each have their shtick.
• More fluff stuff. Okay, I'm confused about Daeva (not uniformly capitalized, btw). Seem sorta like... angels, except not necessarily good. So there are only three types? Or three types, each with two subtypes (like good wrath, bad wrath, etc.), and all, "Daeva have natures that seem almost dualistic but are really just manifestations of the same emotion taken to different extremes"? Like a wrath Daeva could be angry or not. I suppose it's not important mechanically, j/w.
• Again, Charisma for the saves. And they're a melee class. M'kay...

• You can only shape a certain number of Veils per day (see table below). The Veils granted at 1st, 4th, 12th, and 17th level must be selected from the list of Veils associated with your Passion. The Veils gained at 2nd, 6th, 9th, and 15th level can be selected from any marked as available to the Daevic class, but you cannot shape a Veil whose alignment opposes your own.

  Whoa. This means they don't know all their veils, unlike Vizier? That blows. Or my reading comprehension really sucks. It's the "gained" and "granted" that are throwing me off. Plus, in Vizier the text makes it crystal clear they know all of their veils.
  I think it's a neat idea, but at the same time, it sort of feels like unnecessary restrictions. Or perhaps they're so powerful they need some restrictions?
• For alignment stuff, you say they're "usually" so-and-so alignment, but earlier you say their alignment is determined by their passion (sorry, I can't bring myself to capitalize that for religious reasons).
• Typo: 8th level for Wrath. Incarna invested?
• Not really a typo and I hate nitpicking about commas, but I'd insert one between "justice" and "none" in the 20th level ability for Wrath.
• Overall impression of Wrath: Sweet abilities. Totemist was definitely missing something like this. A class feature worth maxing out, Essence-wise, and I imagine most every Wrath Daevic will.
• Jumping down to Veils, Essence and Chakra Binds... what's with that Essence progression? Seems really weird. Looking at the table overall, it looks like they'll peter out in higher levels. Should be getting more power at those levels.
• Jumping back to Desire, neat stuff here. Seems a little... well, the theme isn't as strong as it was with Wrath. Plus, competence bonus?
• Dominion: Hmm, tanky Daevic. But bleh, competence again. The other abilities seem cool, but underwhelming for their levels. 17th and 20th in particular. Perma Blessing of Fervor is nice, but then again, that's a fourth level spell, and you get it at level 20.

• He gains the ability to bind to slots in the following
  order: Hands, Wrists, Shoulders, Belt, Neck, Chest.

  Text v. table.
• Looking back, they can bind to feet at level 1, but have no binds until level 4. ...?
• Blood Bind: I like it, mostly. See my comment on Apotheosis, though.
• Apotheosis: Love this word. Become an Outsider, yawn. Hour meditation to redo all veils, neat. Access to body slot... got that 8 levels ago with Blood Bind, albeit with damage.
• Again... that progression.
• Armory of the Conqueror: I've always had a thing for summoning weapons. It's nice to see size increases for Essence rather than the boring +1 attack and damage. The Hands bind seems kind of weak.
• Bloody Shroud: I just realized this ability makes you *worse* at fighting stuff immune to bleed damage.
• I see some Con going on in these Veils. MADness!
• Daevic Aspect: The Wrath one seems out of place.
• Embrace of the Old Ones: Ah-ha! More natural attacks (presumably; they're not stated as such).
• Missed the Succubus one under Blood in the table on p. 10.
• Spiked Pauldron's: Ha, I like these a lot. The text is confusing, "to grappling creatures to all creatures ..." Not sure I'd ever use that ability, but it's a nice mental image.
• Extra Essence: Prereq of lvl 6 seems totally random (other than is surviving from MoI).

Just my 2cp. I still need to do a more thorough reading.

[Ssalarn]

Danzibr,
Thanks for looking it over. There were a variety of changes taking place in the Daevic, I'll go through and clean up the text to remove discrepancies and clarify anything that's ugly.
Daevic got Charisma as his veilweaving stat because:
a) It was fairly thematically appropriate
and
b) we wanted the system to be open to as many races as possible, so each race got a different mental stat governing their access. The Guru will be Wis based.

I'll also touch up Embrace of the Old Ones, which, yes, should give tentacle attacks. Currently the Daevic should be able to get claws, a gore, and tentacles (as well as a breath weapon). He's got some more veils on the way, including one that'll give him a rake attack, and one for a tail sting. I was working on a special Blood Bind for Gorget of the Wyrm that would give him wings and a fly speed similar to the shoulder bind, but instead of scaling speed and maneuverability he'd get a flat speed and maneuverability but a pair of wing buffets with scaling damage die. So you could potentially find yourself with some interesting tactical choices there.

Vizier and Daevic are both getting about a dozen new Veils this coming weekend as I introduce some Veil "sets". While several of the Veils released so far have been intended to complement other veils to a certain degree (like the Bloody line) these are going to be a little more obvious and a little more focused. The Vizier will be getting some construct-themed veils to expand on hand cannons, giving him kind of a mobile artillery option, as well as some outsider-themed goodies. Daevic is getting a Veil-set I've affectionately been referring to as "Elephant Armor", as well as some Veils designed for underwater combat I've dubbed "Water Dragon". These Veils, while being built as part of thematic sets, will offer stand-alone bonuses and don't need to be tied in with the other set pieces, though the abilities of all pieces will be complimentary.

[Seerow]

I realized as I was typing that exponential progression was going to be waaaaayyyyyy too much and changed it to a linear scale on odd-numbered bumps without going back back and changing what I'd already typed :P

Currently I've gotten a lot of feedback indicating that the Vizier's damage veils are too strong at 1st level and too weak at levels past 12, so I'm trying to spread that potential out a bit.

I guess I can kind of see too strong at level 1 if I squint my eyes a bit. An at will power that's 2d6 base + 1d6 (base essence alotment) + 1d6 (extra essence alotment from Enhanced Veil Capacity), is kind of strong. But 2d6 or even 3d6 I don't really see a problem with. Maybe consider bumping the level requirement on Enhanced Veil Capacity?

I'd go with something like:
Enhanced Veil Capacity comes online at level 8 instead of 1.
1d6 + 1d6 per essence invested. Every point of essence above 3 grants 2d6. Each point above 6 grants 3d6.

So you have:
0 essence: 1d6
3 essence: 4d6 (min level 6)
4 essence: 6d6 (min level 8)
6 essence: 11d6 (min level 12) [Unrelated: I just now noticed that you get your bonus essence from Vizier and normal level at level 12. Why such a big jump at that level? I would have assumed the bonus essence from vizier is spread into the middle of the big gaps in the standard progression]
7 essence: 14d6 (min level 18)
8 essence: 17d6 (min level 20)

Just a thought.


I'll have to redownload the vizier to see all of the changes.



I am just now starting to look at the Daevic, but the biggest thing that stands out is the weirdness of the Chakra binds. I harped on this a lot with the Vizier, but as danzibr already pointed out, it's even weirder with the Daevic, because you straight up don't gain access to a bind until 4th level, despite the chakra for feet opening up at 4th level. Why is this a thing? I assume just a mistake in editing, but the better question is why is it even possible for this to be a thing? I still have yet to see an explanation for why there needs to be a limit on number of chakra binds that is separate from the number of chakras you have access to and the number of veils you can shape.


That being said, I love the Daevic fluff now that I've gotten a chance to read it. It actually reminds me strongly of the Stormlight Archives (seriously spirits of an ideal seek out somebody who embodies that ideal and gives them special powers? If you haven't read The Way of Kings, you really should, because it's clear your tastes fall along the same lines).

Daevic essence seems like it's going to be really tight between the Veils and the Passion. I know you're keeping this close to the totemist baseline, but bumping up to Incarnate/Vizier levels of essence investment would be nice.


Wrath spell resistance is potentially very nice, it really depends on how much charisma a Daevic can get away with. Right now they seem very much like a Paladin, lots of MAD going on and likely to be midling all around in their attributes for it. Other class features may fix that. Honestly though Cha is simply going to vary so much, why not 10+1/2 meldshaper level+2*essence? That lands you pretty much exactly into useful territory without ever becoming untouchable.

The fluff of the Wrath damage resistance seems to imply fast healing rather than DR. May want to reconsider how that's described.

Bright side, that Wrath capstone is really nice. Especially with what you described in your last post for providing extra natural attacks. I will note however the capstone is the only ability there that doesn't scale with essence investment. I assume that's intentional, but it does stick out that way.

I'm kind of curious why Desire gets so awesome at grappling of all things. It gets a sizeable boost there, and while steal makes sense, grapple is kind of weird. Any fluff justification for it?

Wow, Desire gets Dominate Monster at will plus the ability to effectively mindrape them into permanent thralls. That is huge. And you were worried about Vestments of Marajaha being considered overpowered if you buffed it? This is possibly the best minionmancy effect I've seen in any source. Like seriously you could drop this from at will to Cha mod/day, and only allow 1-3 permanent thralls, and this would still be an excellent ability on par with most caster forms of minionmancy.

I love the Dominion passion, and see no real major issues with it. The 14th level ability not having anything to scale with essence is a bit sad, maybe roll that together with the AC bonus and give something new at level 17? It'd also be cool if Dominion somehow got Leadership for free/triple number of followers if you already have it, because that'd be incredibly fitting. Maybe just tack that on to the Dominion Capstone? Dominion has the weakest capstone of the three, giving a Dominion Daevic an army is in flavor and helps bring it up to par with the others.

Bloodbind's penalty seems too lenient and too harsh at the same time. If you get a decent source of DR or Fast healing (if DR doesn't work), then the penalty isn't a penalty at all. If you don't have those, then trying to use a veil other than the Blood veils seems like a waste of time and energy. Why not just straight up give them a con penalty, or penalty to max HP, or something like that, rather than hp every round? Straight up saying "Lose 2 hp per character level for the day after binding that veil" is a penalty people will notice, but can much more easily accounted for than a constantly ticking damage.


Edit: Formatting suggestion- Could we get it noted in the veil descriptions if they're related to a Passion, in the same way spells get tagged if they're part of a domain? (ie Vestments of the Maharaja Class: Vizier, Desire)

[danzibr]

Oooh. I look forward to these new veils. One thing MoI botched was Totemist soulmelds: power and utility all over the place level-wise, wasted potential with lack of essentia bonuses, quantity over quality with the natural weapon melds, many insipid static bonuses. These veils are much better, especially when we get more natural weapons. Plus... I like their flavor more.

[HunterOfJello]

A new and improved version of Tome of Battle might possibly push me over the edge into trying out Pathfinder material.

[Lord_Gareth]

A new and improved version of Tome of Battle might possibly push me over the edge into trying out Pathfinder material.

Hi, Path of War freelancer here, how can I help you?

[Ssalarn]

Changelog:

Daevic Desire capstone changed to limit the abilities power, while still being appropriate for the level and tier of the class.

Bloody Shroud adjusted to reflect correct bind acquisition level annotation.

Cincture of the Dragon adjusted to remove Con-based durations and effects.

Courtesan's Cloak changed to an insight bonus to saves to be more in line with the general bonus types granted by Incarna abilities.

Essence of the Succubus changed to a competence bonus to be more in line with the general bonus types granted by Incarna abilities.

Immaculate Touch changed to do 1 point of healing +1d6 per point of Essence invested.

Grammar error corrected in Infernal Blood.

Thurston's Bladewards fixed to grant DR/Bludgeoning.

Level requirement removed from Extra Essence.
Level requirement (7th) added to Extra Essence Capacity.

[Ssalarn]

I'm kind of curious why Desire gets so awesome at grappling of all things. It gets a sizeable boost there, and while steal makes sense, grapple is kind of weird. Any fluff justification for it?

So, funny story there. The Desire Daevic was supposed to be able to encompass physical love or lust in addition to the lust for material things. What I discovered during class design? There are like, 1,000 different ways to combine intimate references with grapple that all come off with a vibe that, well....
Leave it that my fiancee' consistently sent me back to the drawing board for the good of my reputation and Dreamscarred's enough times that I just gave up on trying to tie fluff to that mechanic in anything more than the most vaguely implied way. I wanted Don Juan Demarco, I kept getting John Wayne Gacy. I even had another writer take a look at it and he was like "Wel, maybe if you said the Daevic becomes talented at taking control of intim.... Okay, I kind of see the problem here."

It'd also be cool if Dominion somehow got Leadership for free/triple number of followers if you already have it, because that'd be incredibly fitting.

So, here's the thing. This was actually in the original write-up (or something very close to it) and several of my other 3pp designer friends go "Dude, you realize that you are aiming to make GM's hate you, right? Tha Dominate Monster thing is bad enough, but at least there's a few ways around it. Leadership is like the most widely banned feat in existence."

So I left his ability to acquire minions as something that could be thematic or picked up mechanically in campaigns where the GM felt it was appropriate, so that there'd be a good leader class that didn't introduce the issues that free followers can bring in. At the end of the day, I want as many different gaming groups as possible to be able to use as many options as possible.

[Seerow]

So, funny story there. The Desire Daevic was supposed to be able to encompass physical love or lust in addition to the lust for material things. What I discovered during class design? There are like, 1,000 different ways to combine intimate references with grapple that all come off with a vibe that, well....
Leave it that my fiancee' consistently sent me back to the drawing board for the good of my reputation and Dreamscarred's enough times that I just gave up on trying to tie fluff to that mechanic in anything more than the most vaguely implied way. I wanted Don Juan Demarco, I kept getting John Wayne Gacy. I even had another writer take a look at it and he was like "Wel, maybe if you said the Daevic becomes talented at taking control of intim.... Okay, I kind of see the problem here."

And suddenly I understand why I didn't make the connection. Fair enough.