Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Serpentine]

There's the really overblown language that tries to spin rejecting people as some sort of heinous act.

And that's the bit that bothers me about it, this attitude of blame. If someone not being interested in you* the way you're interested in them means that, upon reflection, you need to step back from them for your own emotional wellbeing, that's okay. But acknowledge that that's your issue, not theirs. Don't act like not being interested in you is something they did to you, rather than something that just is. Don't end the friendship to punish them or out of spite, end or step back from it because you need it. Don't resent them for not being able to alter their feelings to your desire, acknowledge, if need be, that you have to see to yourself to avoid resenting them. Don't blame them because you can't handle their different feelings for you. And when I talk about not being able to handle something, I am absolutely not being disparaging - I think it's important and a sign of maturity for someone to be able to acknowledge and therefore address the things they can't handle.
For example, there was a possibility that a guy I fancy might have to move in with me, because I needed a housemate and he needed a house. I don't believe I could have handled having his girlfriend stay over and the like, because I'm still a bit hung up on him combined with my own tendency to loneliness. Since his girlfriend was going overseas for a year, though, I think I could probably have dealt with having him living here as long as she was at a distance. It's better for me to acknowledge what I could and could not handle, than to assume I must be able to deal with everything because it's all silly, and end up getting weird and creepy and upset later.

To go back to the origin of this discussion for a moment, with the offer to proceed with the [offered date activity] but not as a date... Good lord some people here are so quick to always assume dishonesty or misdirection. I wouldn't have the least bit of hesitation, if a friend of mine asked if I wanted to do something as a date but I wasn't romantically interested in them, in declining the date aspect but being open to the possibility of the activity anyway - not out of fear of violence, not in an attempt to manipulate them, not out of insincere good manners, but because I still like them and would like to spend time with them, just not with that flavour. Aka, exactly as it says on the tin. If there's any "hidden message", it's that I don't want them to think their confession of wanting to date me makes me think any less of them or that I think it's going to get awkward.
This goes the other way, as well. If I ask someone else on a date, it's entirely possible that I'll voice the option, if the date component isn't wanted, of doing it on a friends-only basis. It came up recently, sort of, when a guy I've been hanging out with a bit, in whom I do definitely have a significant romantic interest, got extremely drunk and said very loudly in the middle of a bunch of people we'd just met that I mustn't think that that or anything else we'd been doing constituted a date. I was a bit annoyed and embarrassed that he'd chosen that particular moment to have that particular conversation, but as I explained to him later (which I don't think he remembers...), sure I'm interested in him, but if he's not, that's fine. I was already pretty sure he wasn't, but I still really enjoy his company, and he seems to know a lot of interesting people who I wouldn't mind meeting too. I probably wouldn't want to hang out with him and his new (hypothetical) girlfriend because that'd cut a bit, but that's my issue to deal with, not his.


Summary: stop blaming people for not being interested in you; acknowledge that if you end a friendship over a declined romantic overture that's on you, not the other person, and that if you don't explain that they're likely to be very hurt; and stop looking for subtext and deception where the explicit statement is sufficient.

*the general "you"

[Crow]

Whoa, I missed something here. Who's ending friendships?

[Serpentine]

That's uh... a significant part of the last couple of pages? About guys deciding that if the object of their affections doesn't fancy them back, then they don't want to be friends with them. Touching on "friendzone", "girlfriendzone", befriending someone just to try and girlfriend them, recovering from "rejection", the unsatisfactory consolation prize of friendship, not wanting to go out to dinner just as a friend if the original invitation was for a date, etc.


As an aside, my sister is very up-front and explicit about feeling that she has plenty of friends, and that what she's looking for is lovers and/or romance. I personally don't, as Coidz would say, grokk it, since for me more friends = more potential lovers (either directly or through friends-of-friends), and also lovers usually = friends. But I get that it happens, and at least she's honest about it - and she really does have a lot of friends.

[Crow]

That's uh... a significant part of the last couple of pages? About guys deciding that if the object of their affections doesn't fancy them back, then they don't want to be friends with them. Touching on "friendzone", "girlfriendzone", befriending someone just to try and girlfriend them, recovering from "rejection", the unsatisfactory consolation prize of friendship, not wanting to go out to dinner just as a friend if the original invitation was for a date, etc.

I think you're greatly misinterpreting/overblowing what people have been saying (for the most part).

But that's cool. No worries.

[Serpentine]

It's exactly what people have been discussing... Not exclusively, but that's where a lot of the conversation has gone. I wasn't overblowing anything, and rather I was deliberately making an effort to just list a few of the things involved in the discussion of friendship vs relationship that were touched on without expressing an opinion on it in that post. I probably failed, at least in tone, but I was being deliberately understated in my summary.

edit: A few quick examples of what I'm responding to from the previous page. Note that I'm not directly replying to any specific point they've made, just the overall subject and general observed attitudes.

[Coidzor]

Whoa, I missed something here. Who's ending friendships?

Everyone. All the time. Every day.

And that's the bit that bothers me about it, this attitude of blame.

The only element of blame I'm aware of here is my own personal example where I'm a bit miffed that I had the rug pulled out from under my feet after she approached me about forming a relationship and then wouldn't talk to me about how she wanted to go forward in interacting but then got mad at me over a minor slipup that I then explained.

Certainly there are those who do such things, but I don't see what they have to do with this or us, here and now.

If someone not being interested in you* the way you're interested in them means that, upon reflection, you need to step back from them for your own emotional wellbeing, that's okay. But acknowledge that that's your issue, not theirs. Don't act like not being interested in you is something they did to you, rather than something that just is. Don't end the friendship to punish them or out of spite, end or step back from it because you need it. Don't resent them for not being able to alter their feelings to your desire, acknowledge, if need be, that you have to see to yourself to avoid resenting them. Don't blame them because you can't handle their different feelings for you. And when I talk about not being able to handle something, I am absolutely not being disparaging - I think it's important and a sign of maturity for someone to be able to acknowledge and therefore address the things they can't handle.

Sure, that's generally what one should do when rejected.

For example, there was a possibility that a guy I fancy might have to move in with me, because I needed a housemate and he needed a house. I don't believe I could have handled having his girlfriend stay over and the like, because I'm still a bit hung up on him combined with my own tendency to loneliness. Since his girlfriend was going overseas for a year, though, I think I could probably have dealt with having him living here as long as she was at a distance. It's better for me to acknowledge what I could and could not handle, than to assume I must be able to deal with everything because it's all silly, and end up getting weird and creepy and upset later.

Indeed. Which is why it's better to not create a sense of social obligation to pretend to be OK with things that we're not OK with and that make us uncomfortable or that, quite simply, we don't want to do for whatever reason.

To go back to the origin of this discussion for a moment, with the offer to proceed with the [offered date activity] but not as a date... Good lord some people here are so quick to always assume dishonesty or misdirection.

Experience does tend to color one's perceptions. I'm more used to women being self-conscious and uncomfortable that someone they thought of as a friend is attracted to them to the extent that they do their fair share, or more than, in sabotaging the interpersonal relationship as both parties attempt to go forward after such a revelation. Which, y'know, hey, whatever, if they need that distance, they need that distance, but just as how the rejected party should be honest about it, so should the rejecting party.

I do not, however, only believe that it could have been dishonesty or misdirection, and I don't recall anyone else thinking that, either. I'm pretty sure my stance was the most extreme on that front, too, so if that's not a reference to my stance I'm not sure whose it could be.

I wouldn't have the least bit of hesitation, if a friend of mine asked if I wanted to do something as a date but I wasn't romantically interested in them, in declining the date aspect but being open to the possibility of the activity anyway - not out of fear of violence, not in an attempt to manipulate them, not out of insincere good manners, but because I still like them and would like to spend time with them, just not with that flavour.

People do tend to react very strongly to that observation, even when it's not being emphasized. I suppose I'll just let others point out such things if they want to in the future then.

It came up recently, sort of, when a guy I've been hanging out with a bit, in whom I do definitely have a significant romantic interest, got extremely drunk and said very loudly in the middle of a bunch of people we'd just met that I mustn't think that that or anything else we'd been doing constituted a date. I was a bit annoyed and embarrassed that he'd chosen that particular moment to have that particular conversation, but as I explained to him later (which I don't think he remembers...), sure I'm interested in him, but if he's not, that's fine.

That's a **** move on his part, then, drinking or no drinking.

I was already pretty sure he wasn't, but I still really enjoy his company, and he seems to know a lot of interesting people who I wouldn't mind meeting too. I probably wouldn't want to hang out with him and his new (hypothetical) girlfriend because that'd cut a bit, but that's my issue to deal with, not his.

Well, of course, I'm honestly not sure why you'd think someone would think otherwise without being stark raving mad.

Summary: stop blaming people for not being interested in you; acknowledge that if you end a friendship over a declined romantic overture that's on you, not the other person, and that if you don't explain that they're likely to be very hurt; and stop looking for subtext and deception where the explicit statement is sufficient.

I'd have probably just left it at "She's a bit weird, but it doesn't mean anything romantically" if I hadn't been challenged on thinking it unusual or undesirable for someone to flip a date around on someone and then provoked into thinking about it further and dissecting it to a needless extent.

[Chen]

This is still bizarre to me. If you don't have space for another friend, how are you going to have space for a relationship? I'm pretty sure a relationship would take up more of your time than a normal friendship, considering how you'd be doing way more "one-on-one" things with a new romantic partner, while you'd be more likely to continue doing group activities involving your old friends and your new friend.

You'd have to have a cut off at some point. Odds are you're not going to find the right relationship right away. So in the meanwhile, if you continue being friends with all the people you have rejected (or who have rejected you), you're going to just be accumulating friends. It should be evident there's SOME cutoff point where you won't be able to dedicate the time to deal with all of them.

[Lissou]

Yeah, I understand the principle too. If you want a relationship, sure, that means you would have enough time for a friendship instead. By maybe you don't want a friendship instead, and since you don't have time for both, you'd rather drop the friendship and keep looking for a romantic partner. Because even if your romantic partner needs to be a friend first, well you don't have infinite amount of time to devote to friendships, either, and if your goal definitely is to have one of those become a romantic partner, well, at some point something's got to give. Either you cut off some friends or you demote the friendships so that you can still maintain a larger amount of them in the same amount of time, or something.

[Icewraith]

That's uh... a significant part of the last couple of pages? About guys deciding that if the object of their affections doesn't fancy them back, then they don't want to be friends with them. Touching on "friendzone", "girlfriendzone", befriending someone just to try and girlfriend them, recovering from "rejection", the unsatisfactory consolation prize of friendship, not wanting to go out to dinner just as a friend if the original invitation was for a date, etc.


As an aside, my sister is very up-front and explicit about feeling that she has plenty of friends, and that what she's looking for is lovers and/or romance. I personally don't, as Coidz would say, grokk it, since for me more friends = more potential lovers (either directly or through friends-of-friends), and also lovers usually = friends. But I get that it happens, and at least she's honest about it - and she really does have a lot of friends.

You're confusing the (not unreasonable) lament that one would prefer things had gone differently with the act of casting blame or other negative association upon the person doing the rejecting. If you don't like me back, you are simply attracted to characteristics that I do not possess in sufficient quantity. Or I (or someone) did something stupid or reprehensible enough for you to eliminate me as a suitable candidate for a relationship. Either the cause of you rejecting me lies in the murky intersection of our respective biologies, upbringings, histories, and random chance, or it's someone else's fault (usually mine, but maybe our families have been feuding for a long time because one of our ancestors killed the other etc.) for you perceiving me as some flavor of jerk.

The last couple pages have been about dealing with the fallout of being rejected, and the positives and negatives of staying friends with someone you have feelings for vs. dropping the friendship. I don't recall leaving being recommended as some form of punishment. By discussing reasons for leaving we end up talking about the downsides to staying friends, without the conditions mentioned the reasons to leave vanish. Leaving is often portrayed as "that person was only looking for sex" and remaining friends as "if I am suitable for a relationship I am also suitable for a friendship", when neither is necessarily the case. Those conditions are mostly dependent on the mental state of the rejectee and have little to do with the rejecter.

[Serpentine]

You're confusing the (not unreasonable) lament that one would prefer things had gone differently with the act of casting blame or other negative association upon the person doing the rejecting.

No, I'm making a comment on an attitude that is not-rarely-enough associated with having one's romantic overtures turned down that I have observed. The most obvious, but not the only, example is the complaint that "they friendzoned me" - it is one thing, and reasonable, to be disappointed that they don't feel the way you want them to; it is another to behave as though that difference in feeling is something they did to you.

[Icewraith]

No, I'm making a comment on an attitude that is not-rarely-enough associated with having one's romantic overtures turned down that I have observed. The most obvious, but not the only, example is the complaint that "they friendzoned me" - it is one thing, and reasonable, to be disappointed that they don't feel the way you want them to; it is another to behave as though that difference in feeling is something they did to you.

Where in the discussion has that been? I'm honestly not seeing anything this describes:

Summary: stop blaming people for not being interested in you; acknowledge that if you end a friendship over a declined romantic overture that's on you, not the other person, and that if you don't explain that they're likely to be very hurt; and stop looking for subtext and deception where the explicit statement is sufficient.

*the general "you"

Unless you're complaining about the grammar inherent in "I asked X on a date and X told me X didn't feel that way about me."
It seems like whatever we've been saying, you've been reading it and getting "you should not be friends with people who reject you as romantic partners because they're [insulting phrase here] for saying no." I don't know if this is internet lack of context syndrome or what, but it is my understanding that you perceive the attitude you are very much against in the above quote is present in this thread and specifically the posts you linked earlier.

Just in case this is ILCS, my post is intended to be in the tone of a genuinely befuddled person and not angry or upset in any way.

Edit: As far as I can tell I've been saying 1+1 =2 and not 3, only you're telling me to stop answering three because the answer is two, and linking posts that I think are explaining the minutia of 1+1 and saying they're about three.

[Coidzor]

examples

Because I disagree with you about whether romantic rejection should be called romantic rejection? Or because I believe people don't engage in courtly love (anymore, if they ever really did) because they can marry for love? That I feel it's conscientious to make sure one's interest isn't a passing fancy that will fade in a day or week before asking someone out when I was, and to some extent still am, annoyed and dismayed that I had someone ask me out and then reject me within the past week or so?

Spoiler: random vent

Show

Mildly annoyed at myself from this morning's bus ride... cute girl sat next to me (there were other seats, not sure if there were seats that weren't adjacent to someone), and had no issues with our arms resting against each other's the whole ride, and I caught her looking at me at least once. Of course, I can barely function in the morning, let alone socialize with people, so I just sat there in silence and stared at my phone. I hate when I fail at the whole "existing in society" part of life...

Well, you know, no need to read anything into someone not objecting to having your arms touching while on a bus ride or beat yourself up over not trying to chat them up for their number. And generally if someone you don't know sits next to you on a bus and doesn't strike you up in conversation, either there are no free seats, they didn't notice any free seats, or there were some free seats, but none of them close to whoever she was with, and not enough of them in one place for all of them to sit nearish one another otherwise.

Nobody is doing this. What I am saying is that people are trying to spin a fairly routine social interaction people routinely manage without trouble into some life-changing herculean task. Sure, some people have difficulty with what other people find easy - I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is those people assuming that their difficulties are somehow universal, and some of the spin that comes from that. For instance, there's the blatant attempts at looking like the persecuted martyr who stands against the cold, unfeeling society. There's the use of these troubles to justify things like stalking (though nobody has done that here), sabotaging romantic relationships, or other such things. There's the really overblown language that tries to spin rejecting people as some sort of heinous act.

Well, hyperbole naturally enters into the conversation the more people seem to go in circles in a conversation, at least online.

I'm honestly not sure what the issue is then, since while certainly there are people who do that, no one here was doing anything like that.

Where in the discussion has that been? I'm honestly not seeing anything this describes:

Edit: As far as I can tell I've been saying 1+1 =2 and not 3, only you're telling me to stop answering three because the answer is two, and linking posts that I think are explaining the minutia of 1+1 and saying they're about three.

I, too, am confused, as it appears like we're collectively being taken to task over people who have said or posted things places other than this website. I'm not the person behind the website that gave the internet the ladder theory or anything, I can assure you.

[rogueboy]

Well, you know, no need to read anything into someone not objecting to having your arms touching while on a bus ride or beat yourself up over not trying to chat them up for their number. And generally if someone you don't know sits next to you on a bus and doesn't strike you up in conversation, either there are no free seats, they didn't notice any free seats, or there were some free seats, but none of them close to whoever she was with, and not enough of them in one place for all of them to sit nearish one another otherwise.

Oh, I'm fully aware of this. And my frustration wasn't about this particular situation in itself, but more with my inability to function in the mornings, regardless of how much I want to. This has applied to both this type of situation and with friends when doing things early (most recent example was carpooling to "Legislative day", where we lobbied state senators/representatives for our profession). I get mildly annoyed with myself for certain things sometimes, and just need to vent - this was one of those times.

[Serpentine]

Because I disagree with you about whether romantic rejection should be called romantic rejection? Or because I believe people don't engage in courtly love (anymore, if they ever really did) because they can marry for love? That I feel it's conscientious to make sure one's interest isn't a passing fancy that will fade in a day or week before asking someone out when I was, and to some extent still am, annoyed and dismayed that I had someone ask me out and then reject me within the past week or so?

Those were all examples of where discussion of friendship vs relationship and the ending of a friendship over a lack of a relationship had been discussed on the previous page, nothing more.

[Coidzor]

Those were all examples of where discussion of friendship vs relationship and the ending of a friendship over a lack of a relationship had been discussed on the previous page, nothing more.

Oh. Okay, then.

Oh, I'm fully aware of this. And my frustration wasn't about this particular situation in itself, but more with my inability to function in the mornings, regardless of how much I want to. This has applied to both this type of situation and with friends when doing things early (most recent example was carpooling to "Legislative day", where we lobbied state senators/representatives for our profession). I get mildly annoyed with myself for certain things sometimes, and just need to vent - this was one of those times.

That is unfortunate.

[Lissou]

For what it's worth, I understand the word "rejection" to mean rejection of one's feelings, not one's self. Yes, we do say "I was rejected" instead of "my feelings were rejected" but we also say "I was cut in traffic" rather than "the car I was driving was cut in traffic" so it's not like it's uncommon for humans to use metonymies or synecdoches (I can never remember which one applies in this case).

[Ifni]

For what it's worth, I understand the word "rejection" to mean rejection of one's feelings, not one's self. Yes, we do say "I was rejected" instead of "my feelings were rejected" but we also say "I was cut in traffic" rather than "the car I was driving was cut in traffic" so it's not like it's uncommon for humans to use metonymies or synecdoches (I can never remember which one applies in this case).

It still seems odd to me. (I mean, I know it's the common phrasing, but it seems odd.) I'm asexual+aromantic - when someone says "I think I'm falling in love with you and I would like a romantic relationship" (paraphrasing, obvs, that's not normally how it's phrased), and I say, "Sorry, it's not about you, but I don't share those feelings and have pretty good reason to believe I never will" (same caveat), what of their feelings am I rejecting? I'm not saying "your feelings aren't valid", I'm not saying "take your feelings and go away", I'm saying "I acknowledge that you feel that way, but I feel a different way, and so anything that requires us to both feel the same way isn't going to work". For someone who's not aromantic, but isn't attracted to the other person and has reason to believe they never will be, the same principle seems to apply.

The term seems to characterize a romantic relationship as a gift that one person (stereotypically a man) offers and the other person (stereotypically a woman) must either accept or reject. It posits relationships as a transaction rather than something people build together based on shared attraction, and thus characterizes "Sorry, I'm not qualified for this" (due to total lack of that shared attraction) as "rejection".

(Suppose I have a computer problem, and I say to a close friend, "Hey, my laptop is being weird, do you know anything about Macs and if so can I get your help in figuring it out?" and they say "Uh sorry, I've never used a Mac in my life", I would not generally describe that as "my friend rejected my laptop problems". Likewise, if I then ended the friendship over this "rejection", I think my friend would legitimately have cause to question whether it was a real friendship or I had just been nice to him because I knew he worked in IT and had been hoping for free computer support.)

I understand there are strong feelings involved which I cannot and probably never will really grok, but I think I agree with Serpentine that "rejection" is a rather strange framing if you think of a romantic relationship as a mutual endeavor based on shared romantic attraction. (Although we may not agree for the same reasons - I don't want to speak on her behalf.)

As a side note, I feel like "refusing friendship as a substitute for romance" is being conflated in this thread to mean two things:
(1) Asking out an acquaintance / casual friend, being given a "no" for a romantic relationship, and deciding not to seek a close platonic friendship with the person.
(2) Breaking off a long-term close platonic friendship after being given a "no" for a romantic relationship.
As someone who's only ever been on the "rejector" end of things and will probably never be in the "rejectee" position, I have zero issues with (1) (it's just maintaining the status quo), but (2) would be pretty darn hurtful (i.e. to think that your best friend looks at you and sees primarily REMINDER OF REJECTION rather than all the things you've shared), and I think the "rejector" in that case is at least owed an explanation, if the "rejectee" needs to cut contact for their own mental health.

(I have experienced (1), it was fine. I haven't experienced (2) - several of my close friends have asked me out, but all remained friends afterward. I have experienced "close friend asked me out, got a No, knows I'm ace+aro, and still makes it clear they want a romantic relationship years down the track", and that's uncomfortable, but I would rather have that than losing the friendship altogether.)

The people saying "but I don't have room in my social schedule for another close friend, only for a relationship" seem to be talking mostly about (1) rather than (2) - since if it's (2), that person was already in your social schedule as a close friend - whereas the Girlfriendzone article seems to be complaining more about (2) than about (1) (talking about hanging out, doing a lot of activities together, listening to personal confidences, etc).

They seem to intersect when someone is pursuing a close platonic friendship with the feeling of "this will only be a worthwhile investment if it evolves into a romantic relationship, so I'm going to consider it as filling the 'romantic relationship' slot in my social circle rather than a 'friend' slot, without ever mentioning this to the other person involved". Which is the "Girlfriend Zone" idea, and does seem rather deceitful.

[Coidzor]

For what it's worth, I understand the word "rejection" to mean rejection of one's feelings, not one's self. Yes, we do say "I was rejected" instead of "my feelings were rejected" but we also say "I was cut in traffic" rather than "the car I was driving was cut in traffic" so it's not like it's uncommon for humans to use metonymies or synecdoches (I can never remember which one applies in this case).

It can be the one, it can be the both. It's not like one is more or less moral than the other or anything.

Rejecting someone as a lover is not only rejecting their feelings, however. It also involves rejecting the actual proposition as well as the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self and a bunch of other little things that no one cares about unless they're distraught.

It still seems odd to me. (I mean, I know it's the common phrasing, but it seems odd.) I'm asexual+aromantic - when someone says "I think I'm falling in love with you and I would like a romantic relationship" (paraphrasing, obvs, that's not normally how it's phrased), and I say, "Sorry, it's not about you, but I don't share those feelings and have pretty good reason to believe I never will" (same caveat), what of their feelings am I rejecting?

Point. Semantics are fun, aren't they? As is figuring out which parts of a thing are semantical and which parts are not...

Still, whatever part of them or their overture that one is reacting negatively, one is still giving an answer in the negative on a subject that is emotionally charged, even fraught.

I'm not saying "take your feelings and go away"

That's just implied, because hearing about it after that is generally considered annoying if not in extremely poor taste or sexual harassment.

The term seems to characterize a romantic relationship as a gift that one person (stereotypically a man) offers and the other person (stereotypically a woman) must either accept or reject. It posits relationships as a transaction rather than something people build together based on shared attraction, and thus characterizes "Sorry, I'm not qualified for this" (due to total lack of that shared attraction) as "rejection".

Part of that is because a lack of shared attraction is not a lack of qualification.

Being aromantic, for instance, is more of a lack of capacity than a lack of qualification, as someone who is aromantic does not have the mental/emotional architecture to run romantic subroutines. Just like a 32 bit computer lacks the architecture to run 64 bit software. Or am I misremembering what it is that makes someone aromantic here?

(Suppose I have a computer problem, and I say to a close friend, "Hey, my laptop is being weird, do you know anything about Macs and if so can I get your help in figuring it out?" and they say "Uh sorry, I've never used a Mac in my life", I would not generally describe that as "my friend rejected my laptop problems". Likewise, if I then ended the friendship over this "rejection", I think my friend would legitimately have cause to question whether it was a real friendship or I had just been nice to him because I knew he worked in IT and had been hoping for free computer support.)

Not really a good example to compare though, and there are some... unfortunate implications there if we start to dissect it fully, too. :/

I understand there are strong feelings involved which I cannot and probably never will really grok, but I think I agree with Serpentine that "rejection" is a rather strange framing if you think of a romantic relationship as a mutual endeavor based on shared romantic attraction.

As much as an impartial, outside observer's vantage point can reveal things, it's not particularly useful to chastise people for feeling rejected when their romantic overtures are turned down, either.

Attempts to reframe it as something that just organically happens as a natural consequence of people interacting only will just result in shaming people for wanting to make things clear as they've "jumped the gun" in that case.

We don't have to downplay the fact that rejection is unpleasant in order to communicate that we shouldn't let it rule us or our future relationships and interactions with our preferred genders, surely?

(1) Asking out an acquaintance / casual friend, being given a "no" for a romantic relationship, and deciding not to seek a close platonic friendship with the person.

That certainly has been covered here, aye.

(2) Breaking off a long-term close platonic friendship after being given a "no" for a romantic relationship.

Or downgrading it to acquaintanceship or that hazy area between someone who is an acquaintance and someone who is a rarely seen friend, aye.

As someone who's only ever been on the "rejector" end of things and will probably never be in the "rejectee" position, I have zero issues with (1) (it's just maintaining the status quo), but (2) would be pretty darn hurtful (i.e. to think that your best friend looks at you and sees primarily REMINDER OF REJECTION rather than all the things you've shared), and I think the "rejector" in that case is at least owed an explanation, if the "rejectee" needs to cut contact for their own mental health.

Yeah, well, romantic trials and tribulations can be ****ty at times. That's life. You think it's a bed of roses for the rejected party? You think that people are choosing to view someone they liked and still like as painful to be around?

I hope not, because if you did, you'd be wrong and off-base.

And, sure, if they want an explanation they should generally get one, no one was disputing that, though I suppose that was one area that wasn't really touched upon. No one was advocating intentionally saying as many vitriolic, hurtful, alienating things to them as possible before cutting contact or anything, though.

The people saying "but I don't have room in my social schedule for another close friend, only for a relationship" seem to be talking mostly about (1) rather than (2) - since if it's (2), that person was already in your social schedule as a close friend - whereas the Girlfriendzone article seems to be complaining more about (2) than about (1) (talking about hanging out, doing a lot of activities together, listening to personal confidences, etc).

Generally, though they also complain about guys who befriend them and start crushing on them as if they only befriended them in order to crush on them and try to get into their pants and due to the nature of such things it's sometimes difficult to tell how much of that is the joke and how much of that is serious.

And, yes, someone who has already made the shortlist for people one is willing to actively spend time on while engaging in romantic ventures is sitting pretty. Probably.

They seem to intersect when someone is pursuing a close platonic friendship with the feeling of "this will only be a worthwhile investment if it evolves into a romantic relationship, so I'm going to consider it as filling the 'romantic relationship' slot in my social circle rather than a 'friend' slot, without ever mentioning this to the other person involved". Which is the "Girlfriend Zone" idea, and does seem rather deceitful.

Everyone agrees that Nice Guys^TM are terrible, yes.

[Lissou]

I meant it more as "rejection of the offer to become romantically entangled". You're right that phrasing it as "rejection of the person's feelings" is wrong (most people won't demand the person stops liking them). But there was an offer made and the offer was rejected. To take your computer analogy, I think it's a bit more like "hey, do you want me to take a look at your computer since you're having issues with it?" "Well, I appreciate that, but I'm good". Also a rejection of someone's offer (which can be paired with getting help from someone else, or getting no help at all).

[Knaight]

Rejecting someone as a lover is not only rejecting their feelings, however. It also involves rejecting the actual proposition as well as the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self and a bunch of other little things that no one cares about unless they're distraught.

Rejecting "the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self" takes way, way more than rejecting a romantic proposition. Putting aside how there are a whole bunch of ways for a rejection of the proposition to not include even a rejection of some degree of romantic appeal, there's the whole matter of every other type of appeal. At the very least, cutting someone off to below the level of friendly acquaintance is necessary for "rejecting the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self", and it's hardly sufficient.

[Coidzor]

Rejecting "the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self" takes way, way more than rejecting a romantic proposition. Putting aside how there are a whole bunch of ways for a rejection of the proposition to not include even a rejection of some degree of romantic appeal, there's the whole matter of every other type of appeal.

Rejecting romantic proposition is also communicating that they don't hold any romantic appeal for the rejector.

To communicate something along the lines of "I don't wanna date you or go to the movies, but..." gets into wishy-washy territory that is problematical for its own reasons.

At the very least, cutting someone off to below the level of friendly acquaintance is necessary for "rejecting the idea of them holding any appeal to one's self", and it's hardly sufficient.

Sure if you wanna divorce from the context of what I was speaking to and play the overly technical game. I'm not particularly interested in that old dance, though.

[-D-]

Coidzor, I believe everyone has a right to make their own decisions. When it comes to matters of heart and friendship I suspect there aren't any right or wrong choices insomuch as there are lucky and unlucky ones.

[Serpentine]

It still seems odd to me. (I mean, I know it's the common phrasing, but it seems odd.) I'm asexual+aromantic - when someone says "I think I'm falling in love with you and I would like a romantic relationship" (paraphrasing, obvs, that's not normally how it's phrased), and I say, "Sorry, it's not about you, but I don't share those feelings and have pretty good reason to believe I never will" (same caveat), what of their feelings am I rejecting? I'm not saying "your feelings aren't valid", I'm not saying "take your feelings and go away", I'm saying "I acknowledge that you feel that way, but I feel a different way, and so anything that requires us to both feel the same way isn't going to work". For someone who's not aromantic, but isn't attracted to the other person and has reason to believe they never will be, the same principle seems to apply.

The term seems to characterize a romantic relationship as a gift that one person (stereotypically a man) offers and the other person (stereotypically a woman) must either accept or reject. It posits relationships as a transaction rather than something people build together based on shared attraction, and thus characterizes "Sorry, I'm not qualified for this" (due to total lack of that shared attraction) as "rejection".

(Suppose I have a computer problem, and I say to a close friend, "Hey, my laptop is being weird, do you know anything about Macs and if so can I get your help in figuring it out?" and they say "Uh sorry, I've never used a Mac in my life", I would not generally describe that as "my friend rejected my laptop problems". Likewise, if I then ended the friendship over this "rejection", I think my friend would legitimately have cause to question whether it was a real friendship or I had just been nice to him because I knew he worked in IT and had been hoping for free computer support.)

I understand there are strong feelings involved which I cannot and probably never will really grok, but I think I agree with Serpentine that "rejection" is a rather strange framing if you think of a romantic relationship as a mutual endeavor based on shared romantic attraction. (Although we may not agree for the same reasons - I don't want to speak on her behalf.)

As a side note, I feel like "refusing friendship as a substitute for romance" is being conflated in this thread to mean two things:
(1) Asking out an acquaintance / casual friend, being given a "no" for a romantic relationship, and deciding not to seek a close platonic friendship with the person.
(2) Breaking off a long-term close platonic friendship after being given a "no" for a romantic relationship.
As someone who's only ever been on the "rejector" end of things and will probably never be in the "rejectee" position, I have zero issues with (1) (it's just maintaining the status quo), but (2) would be pretty darn hurtful (i.e. to think that your best friend looks at you and sees primarily REMINDER OF REJECTION rather than all the things you've shared), and I think the "rejector" in that case is at least owed an explanation, if the "rejectee" needs to cut contact for their own mental health.

(I have experienced (1), it was fine. I haven't experienced (2) - several of my close friends have asked me out, but all remained friends afterward. I have experienced "close friend asked me out, got a No, knows I'm ace+aro, and still makes it clear they want a romantic relationship years down the track", and that's uncomfortable, but I would rather have that than losing the friendship altogether.)

The people saying "but I don't have room in my social schedule for another close friend, only for a relationship" seem to be talking mostly about (1) rather than (2) - since if it's (2), that person was already in your social schedule as a close friend - whereas the Girlfriendzone article seems to be complaining more about (2) than about (1) (talking about hanging out, doing a lot of activities together, listening to personal confidences, etc).

They seem to intersect when someone is pursuing a close platonic friendship with the feeling of "this will only be a worthwhile investment if it evolves into a romantic relationship, so I'm going to consider it as filling the 'romantic relationship' slot in my social circle rather than a 'friend' slot, without ever mentioning this to the other person involved". Which is the "Girlfriend Zone" idea, and does seem rather deceitful.

Yes! This! All of this! Well said.

[Coidzor]

Coidzor, I believe everyone has a right to make their own decisions. When it comes to matters of heart and friendship I suspect there aren't any right or wrong choices insomuch as there are lucky and unlucky ones.

You're really going to have to supply some context as to why you've chosen to say such a thing to me so I know what you're actually talking about.

[-D-]

You're really going to have to supply some context as to why you've chosen to say such a thing to me so I know what you're actually talking about.

Well, first I believe anyone has the right to live his life as he chooses. You want to stop being friends because you feel bad due to rejection, is the correct choice for you. Because you made it. No one should tell you how to act in this instance, because they aren't you. Furthermore the matter at discussion, is from my experience subjective and tricky, and there aren't any right or wrong answers.

Second, I found it that despite investing energy to make a relationship work or not, sometimes the random chances will separate you regardless of effort involved. I'm not talking about romantic relationships exclusively. I lost touch with a lot of friends, due to many random things (e.g. they found a job in another place, they switched schools, or just lost contact).

[Icewraith]

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

Show

It still seems odd to me. (I mean, I know it's the common phrasing, but it seems odd.) I'm asexual+aromantic - when someone says "I think I'm falling in love with you and I would like a romantic relationship" (paraphrasing, obvs, that's not normally how it's phrased), and I say, "Sorry, it's not about you, but I don't share those feelings and have pretty good reason to believe I never will" (same caveat), what of their feelings am I rejecting? I'm not saying "your feelings aren't valid", I'm not saying "take your feelings and go away", I'm saying "I acknowledge that you feel that way, but I feel a different way, and so anything that requires us to both feel the same way isn't going to work". For someone who's not aromantic, but isn't attracted to the other person and has reason to believe they never will be, the same principle seems to apply.

The term seems to characterize a romantic relationship as a gift that one person (stereotypically a man) offers and the other person (stereotypically a woman) must either accept or reject. It posits relationships as a transaction rather than something people build together based on shared attraction, and thus characterizes "Sorry, I'm not qualified for this" (due to total lack of that shared attraction) as "rejection".

(Suppose I have a computer problem, and I say to a close friend, "Hey, my laptop is being weird, do you know anything about Macs and if so can I get your help in figuring it out?" and they say "Uh sorry, I've never used a Mac in my life", I would not generally describe that as "my friend rejected my laptop problems". Likewise, if I then ended the friendship over this "rejection", I think my friend would legitimately have cause to question whether it was a real friendship or I had just been nice to him because I knew he worked in IT and had been hoping for free computer support.)

I understand there are strong feelings involved which I cannot and probably never will really grok, but I think I agree with Serpentine that "rejection" is a rather strange framing if you think of a romantic relationship as a mutual endeavor based on shared romantic attraction. (Although we may not agree for the same reasons - I don't want to speak on her behalf.)

As a side note, I feel like "refusing friendship as a substitute for romance" is being conflated in this thread to mean two things:
(1) Asking out an acquaintance / casual friend, being given a "no" for a romantic relationship, and deciding not to seek a close platonic friendship with the person.
(2) Breaking off a long-term close platonic friendship after being given a "no" for a romantic relationship.
As someone who's only ever been on the "rejector" end of things and will probably never be in the "rejectee" position, I have zero issues with (1) (it's just maintaining the status quo), but (2) would be pretty darn hurtful (i.e. to think that your best friend looks at you and sees primarily REMINDER OF REJECTION rather than all the things you've shared), and I think the "rejector" in that case is at least owed an explanation, if the "rejectee" needs to cut contact for their own mental health.

(I have experienced (1), it was fine. I haven't experienced (2) - several of my close friends have asked me out, but all remained friends afterward. I have experienced "close friend asked me out, got a No, knows I'm ace+aro, and still makes it clear they want a romantic relationship years down the track", and that's uncomfortable, but I would rather have that than losing the friendship altogether.)

The people saying "but I don't have room in my social schedule for another close friend, only for a relationship" seem to be talking mostly about (1) rather than (2) - since if it's (2), that person was already in your social schedule as a close friend - whereas the Girlfriendzone article seems to be complaining more about (2) than about (1) (talking about hanging out, doing a lot of activities together, listening to personal confidences, etc).

They seem to intersect when someone is pursuing a close platonic friendship with the feeling of "this will only be a worthwhile investment if it evolves into a romantic relationship, so I'm going to consider it as filling the 'romantic relationship' slot in my social circle rather than a 'friend' slot, without ever mentioning this to the other person involved". Which is the "Girlfriend Zone" idea, and does seem rather deceitful.

To put things differently:

Spoiler: Kinda Long

Show

1: "Hey I have these feelings for you. If you have the same feelings for me, I would like to begin courtship/mating rituals."

2: "Sorry, I don't feel that way about you. However, I would still like to participate in some of the ritual as long as it's devoid of the courtship/mating context, since it's virtually identical to the advanced friendship rituals."

1: "Actually, I'm going to need to hold off on the advanced friendship rituals for awhile until I'm sure my feelings won't confuse the advanced friendship ritual for an acceptance of the beginning courtship/mating ritual."

2: "Refusal to perform advanced friendship rituals because I will not perform beginning courtship/mating rituals with you indicates you were only ever interested in me for courtship/mating and therefore deceptive when you performed the friendship rituals."

1: "I was not deceptive then, but I have developed feelings for you over time. I asked you today because my feelings have gotten to the point that continuing to perform advanced friendship rituals with you when I now cannot help but see them as beginning courtship/mating rituals WOULD be deceptive and possibly outright harmful to one or both of us. Just because I now know you do not have feelings for me does not necessarily mean my own feelings for you vanish."

2: "Then you are punishing me for not sharing your feelings."

1: "No, I am respecting your wishes. You know that one of my long term goals is to find a partner with whom I can perform the very advanced courtship/mating rituals. I have no desire to deceive you, myself, or to give up that goal, but having feelings for you will make it even harder to develop feelings for someone else, and those feelings are required to properly perform the very advanced courtship/mating rituals. Feelings are not always easy to change or to lose or to gain. Until they are gone I will always want you to be something you do not want to be. You will want less from me than I want to give. This state of affairs will persist until my feelings fade, you reciprocate them, or I go nuts."

2: "But the end result is still going to be you not maintaining a friendship with me."

1: "At least until the feelings are gone. They developed over the course of being friends with you, and mostly have to do with things about you that I find interesting or attractive, so spending additional time with you right now probably isn't going to help. That will just reinforce all the things I already like about you and give me hope that someday your feelings change, and hope can cause people do some amazing things and some profoundly stupid things."

2: "I still think you're just leaving because you don't like me, or are hurt, or something. I don't understand why we can't just be friends."

1: "Well this does hurt, and I would vastly have preferred you saying you shared my feelings. But that's not what happened, and my feelings for you are strong enough right now that I think they will cause problems only being friends with you. That's why I wanted to have this conversation in the first place. Until I can get myself back to a state where I CAN just be friends, just being friends isn't an option, or it's a false one."

Now not every situation is going to be this one, there will be people who were honestly just after sex who leave once that's obviously not happening, and people who do have a good enough handle on their feelings to be able to stay just friends. But I think there's room in this conversation for someone who is in touch with their emotions to admit "Hey- I've got it really, really bad for you, and until I can move past that I'm going to be a crappy friend. If you don't or can't have feelings for me, I need to get rid of mine, and that will be much harder if you're around doing the things that attracted me in the first place."

[Cyber Punk]

To put things differently:

Spoiler: Kinda Long

Show

1: "Hey I have these feelings for you. If you have the same feelings for me, I would like to begin courtship/mating rituals."

2: "Sorry, I don't feel that way about you. However, I would still like to participate in some of the ritual as long as it's devoid of the courtship/mating context, since it's virtually identical to the advanced friendship rituals."

1: "Actually, I'm going to need to hold off on the advanced friendship rituals for awhile until I'm sure my feelings won't confuse the advanced friendship ritual for an acceptance of the beginning courtship/mating ritual."

2: "Refusal to perform advanced friendship rituals because I will not perform beginning courtship/mating rituals with you indicates you were only ever interested in me for courtship/mating and therefore deceptive when you performed the friendship rituals."

1: "I was not deceptive then, but I have developed feelings for you over time. I asked you today because my feelings have gotten to the point that continuing to perform advanced friendship rituals with you when I now cannot help but see them as beginning courtship/mating rituals WOULD be deceptive and possibly outright harmful to one or both of us. Just because I now know you do not have feelings for me does not necessarily mean my own feelings for you vanish."

2: "Then you are punishing me for not sharing your feelings."

1: "No, I am respecting your wishes. You know that one of my long term goals is to find a partner with whom I can perform the very advanced courtship/mating rituals. I have no desire to deceive you, myself, or to give up that goal, but having feelings for you will make it even harder to develop feelings for someone else, and those feelings are required to properly perform the very advanced courtship/mating rituals. Feelings are not always easy to change or to lose or to gain. Until they are gone I will always want you to be something you do not want to be. You will want less from me than I want to give. This state of affairs will persist until my feelings fade, you reciprocate them, or I go nuts."

2: "But the end result is still going to be you not maintaining a friendship with me."

1: "At least until the feelings are gone. They developed over the course of being friends with you, and mostly have to do with things about you that I find interesting or attractive, so spending additional time with you right now probably isn't going to help. That will just reinforce all the things I already like about you and give me hope that someday your feelings change, and hope can cause people do some amazing things and some profoundly stupid things."

2: "I still think you're just leaving because you don't like me, or are hurt, or something. I don't understand why we can't just be friends."

1: "Well this does hurt, and I would vastly have preferred you saying you shared my feelings. But that's not what happened, and my feelings for you are strong enough right now that I think they will cause problems only being friends with you. That's why I wanted to have this conversation in the first place. Until I can get myself back to a state where I CAN just be friends, just being friends isn't an option, or it's a false one."

Now not every situation is going to be this one, there will be people who were honestly just after sex who leave once that's obviously not happening, and people who do have a good enough handle on their feelings to be able to stay just friends. But I think there's room in this conversation for someone who is in touch with their emotions to admit "Hey- I've got it really, really bad for you, and until I can move past that I'm going to be a crappy friend. If you don't or can't have feelings for me, I need to get rid of mine, and that will be much harder if you're around doing the things that attracted me in the first place."

Well said. Very, very well said. I would add more, but it would very basically be this rephrased differently...

Of course, there's also the situation where the girl (or object of affection) keeps his/her distance from you just for daring to have feelings for him/her, whether you want to keep that distance or not. Yes, it does happen, whether because of awkwardness or whatever.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hi, guys. No woes or advice today (in fact things are great), but I'd like to talk to Syka about something we discussed a few years back, and offer my thanks among other things. I know she doesn't post regularly anymore, but I figure if anyone has off-board contact with her, this thread is my best bet. So if anyone's friends with her on Facebook or anything, I'd be grateful if you could tell her that Renegade Paladin would like to chat, and she can check her PM box here if she's willing.

[Stuebi]

So, I have no idea if this is something that people can help me with. Feel free to see this as a rant more than a cry for help.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

Show

So I have a Girlfriend now. It's been going for few months, so nothing longterm and very much in it's early stages. We're about 2 hours train-drive apart from each other and try to visit about twice a month for up to three days (A weekend, in most cases). Which has been working fine so far.

Also, I want to point out that I'm absolutely happy with her. So what I'm gonna write below is just a minor thing that has been bugging me, and it's possible that it just comes from me being inexperienced when it comes to relationsships.

So, my fair lady is worries. A lot. And about all kinds of things. I'm a very laid back guy, can be lazy and I generally have a "It doesnt matter what other people think"-attitude. She's the exact opposite. She wonders and frets about what other people might think about her, and especially, us. This kind of reached it's peak when I introduced her into my friendcircle. She's playing The Dark Eye along with us over Skype.

That round has been a source of worries for her as well. The other day she wrote "Hi" in the Skype-Conversation, and nobody wrote anything back (Which in Skype can happen. Sometimes people are busy, and some of my friends plain and simply dont greet over skype, they just talk. Heck, I frequently dont greet myself. If I did that in every chatroom with everyone I know, I'd be on Skype for hours each day.). She took that as "proof" that nobody in the conversation liked her, she was worried the only reason people took her up, was because she was my girlfriend.

Now, she does stuff like that a lot. And that itself wouldnt be an issue, it's the fact that no matter how hard I try to calm her down, it doesnt help. I explained to her that the guys just dont greet over skype, and they wouldnt take her in if they didnt like her. But it didnt help. In the end, we talked about that for almost 30 minutes, with me coming close to melting down in front of the PC. This is just an example, it doesnt happen all the time, but maybe once a week.

The thing is, as explained above, in this regard she's the polar opposite to me. I get tired very quickly when talking about this stuff, but she obviously actually worries about it, so I dont want to just go "Whatever" and make her feel like I dont care about her. For me, the conversation should reach some kind of conclusion after "Dont worry hones, I know the guys and they dont do stuff like that.". Mainly because I dont know what more I can offer.

[Icewraith]

So, I have no idea if this is something that people can help me with. Feel free to see this as a rant more than a cry for help.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

Show

So I have a Girlfriend now. It's been going for few months, so nothing longterm and very much in it's early stages. We're about 2 hours train-drive apart from each other and try to visit about twice a month for up to three days (A weekend, in most cases). Which has been working fine so far.

Also, I want to point out that I'm absolutely happy with her. So what I'm gonna write below is just a minor thing that has been bugging me, and it's possible that it just comes from me being inexperienced when it comes to relationsships.

So, my fair lady is worries. A lot. And about all kinds of things. I'm a very laid back guy, can be lazy and I generally have a "It doesnt matter what other people think"-attitude. She's the exact opposite. She wonders and frets about what other people might think about her, and especially, us. This kind of reached it's peak when I introduced her into my friendcircle. She's playing The Dark Eye along with us over Skype.

That round has been a source of worries for her as well. The other day she wrote "Hi" in the Skype-Conversation, and nobody wrote anything back (Which in Skype can happen. Sometimes people are busy, and some of my friends plain and simply dont greet over skype, they just talk. Heck, I frequently dont greet myself. If I did that in every chatroom with everyone I know, I'd be on Skype for hours each day.). She took that as "proof" that nobody in the conversation liked her, she was worried the only reason people took her up, was because she was my girlfriend.

Now, she does stuff like that a lot. And that itself wouldnt be an issue, it's the fact that no matter how hard I try to calm her down, it doesnt help. I explained to her that the guys just dont greet over skype, and they wouldnt take her in if they didnt like her. But it didnt help. In the end, we talked about that for almost 30 minutes, with me coming close to melting down in front of the PC. This is just an example, it doesnt happen all the time, but maybe once a week.

The thing is, as explained above, in this regard she's the polar opposite to me. I get tired very quickly when talking about this stuff, but she obviously actually worries about it, so I dont want to just go "Whatever" and make her feel like I dont care about her. For me, the conversation should reach some kind of conclusion after "Dont worry hones, I know the guys and they dont do stuff like that.". Mainly because I dont know what more I can offer.

There are a lot of stand-up comics and relationship help books mining this material, and a lot of it would be sexist and outdated if it didn't also appear to have a large amount of truth in it.

Many women talk a lot more than many men. The usual approach is to treat this sort of behavior as a request for help with a problem. It's often, but not always, actually a combination of informing you about their day and simultaneously thinking out loud. If you don't have something to say about the subject, you need to somehow indicate that you're still listening and paying attention. If you try to engage this behavior on a meta-relationship level- i.e. what will she think about me if I say or do X- you'll drive yourself nuts. If you have something to say about something she tells you, tell her at an appropriate point, and maybe make sure she wants your input. If you don't feel you have anything to contribute and she says you don't seem interested, tell her you don't think you have anything useful to say about the subject. If you've run dry on conversation, tell her so.

One way to help mitigate this behavior is to make sure she still spends time talking with her female friends. You're physically away from each other most of the time, so you probably spend a lot of time on the phone or Skype to compensate, and the weekends you have together are your time. Actively encourage her to take time away from you on the phone and meet friends for dinner, or order pizza and drink moderately and have a girl's night in watching the kind of movies she likes but you don't. You should spend your alone time with your friends and watch or do the things you like that she doesn't that also don't imperil your relationship. Spend your time together doing the things you both like, meet or do things with the appropriate set of friends together so you meet each others' friends in a face-to-face setting where there's no missing communication cues, she's already gotten more of her social in so you can have more balanced conversations, everybody wins.