World of Tanks IV: We're on Fire!

[SanguisAevum]

sorry Sanguis
i went through it
i did not post anything calling people names
i did not post anything telling people to go **** themselves..that they were cancer..or that they should blow up their computer

but because i did not slavishly follow the church of "waaaaaah i want arty removed from the game"..my posts were downvoted..redposted..and
Bleep you
bleep off you clicker bleep
bleep you & your skycancer
play an actual tank
go bleep yourself and destroy your computer
was posted at once or in pieces multiple times directed at me with nothing happening to those posters..because they were anti-arty zealots

and how(with a straight face) can someone claim it is a place to get better when you can NOT safely mention arty other than wanting it removed

if you like whatever their rating system is..fine
if you can handle that kind of toxic environment..fine

but any info they have on the game you can get right from the WoT forums themselves

The official forums are FULL of terrible players, content to bask in their own idiotic ignorance. They are as toxic an environment as you can get.

WOTLABS is full of players that are either... Very good at the game and willing to share their knowledge, or players willing to improve by using the knowledge given.

People who go there just to post crap and have no interest in either learning or helping are quickly dealt with.


What was your username on WOTlabs please?

EDIT - wait... let me guess....

"Professor_Moar_Arty" ?

[Jimorian]

I'm not too fond of artys either, but probably not for the reasons they don't like it. For me, it's the fact that I can't hit anything. I'll wait for the aiming reticle to zero in all the way on a tank that has foolishly stopped moving, fire, and then the darn shell lands two inches from them and does no damage. By the time I finish a 30 second reload, the other teammates have already killed it and three other potential targets.

I'm not going to say they should remove the tanks from the game and insist anyone who plays one should smash their own computer though; that's just insane. I just suck at playing artillery, so I stopped, and sold all of mine to buy tanks I actually do enjoy playing.

Oh, and I retract my previous brief positive thought on the XVM rating from a few weeks ago. I had a really good day, earning a top gun and a high caliber award in only a few matches, and it still only gave me a 24 hour rating of 540. It seems there's no way to please that thing, so I'm officially done with ratings.

You can blame all the arty whingers otakuryoga is talking about for the kinds of nerfs that made playing arty a chore. Can't be a very good tanker if you can't make the minimum effort to avoid arty shells under most circumstances.

[AdmiralCheez]

Why are SPGs considered toxic to gameplay anyway? Self-propelled guns were a big part of armored warfare during the world wars, so I don't see why they shouldn't be included in a game about armored warfare of the world war period. I don't see what is so toxic about them. I find them an interesting gameplay element that adds another sense of danger to the battle. If people are concerned that they might get hit from above, then they should be lucky that they don't have to worry about aircraft carrying tank-busters, or soldiers with anti-tank rockets.

[otakuryoga]

"Professor_Moar_Arty" ?

yes
now...tell me what that i posted was worth a 2day ban..let alone perma
and also..explain to me the forum title.. "effing" clicker cancer fa**ot or was it "effing" cancer clicker fa**ot?
does that sound like mods in a place for serious discussion? or mods in an envronment like i described

the main reason people like Garbad hate arty and Garbad admitted this himself at one point before he left the official forums is because it prevents him from sitting in his favorite spot angled/hull down perfectly to farm pubs coming around one corner or another

it can hurt their precious little magic epeen number
and the occasional early hit from arty that takes half health really hurts that number

you always see these people saying "we are great..nerf heavies, we can adjust
nerf td's we can adjust
change shot normalization, we can adjust
we can adjust to anything cause we are good"

but they cant adjust to something that has been in game from the start?

[MCerberus]

Question for PC people: are people there convinced that the MM intentionally tries to break winning streaks to force people into 50% win rates?

[Eldariel]

Question for PC people: are people there convinced that the MM intentionally tries to break winning streaks to force people into 50% win rates?

I've heard that excuse, yes. There is a degree of truth to it; you're 1/30th of a game or if you platoon, at best 3/30th so even if you're a master, you won't be able to do carrying anywhere near the level as you can in e.g. MoBA games. You simply don't have the shells to kill the whole enemy team alone usually, even if you have the ability. As such, you won't get drastic 90+% win rates over a long period of time no matter how good you are and even 60% requires masterful play and generally focusing on OP tanks, skipping stock grinds with free XP and so on. Platoons, again, are probably the single strongest tool for increasing win rate but I believe there are attested over 60% win rate solo players.

However, the degree of truth has nothing to do with the matchmaker and everything to do with probabilities; better players will still win more, it's that simple. MM evens out over time, at least to a reasonable degree. Since the game lacks skill-based matchmaking, better players will invariably win more with a sufficient sample size. However, again, there are plenty of external factors in addition to actual playskill, such as tank loadouts, the tanks one plays themselves, platooning and so on, that influence the stat so it's not a pure description, where the various WNs (most relevantly WN8) and their problems come in (turns out none of them are pure presentations either; they have valuable data but there's always some chaff in there which hurts their precision - that said, they of course still largely serve their purpose on a broad scale, even if they're gameable).

[GloatingSwine]

Question for PC people: are people there convinced that the MM intentionally tries to break winning streaks to force people into 50% win rates?

Oh hell yes.

They're usually 48-49% players who don't really know what actions lead to winning and losing at tanks, and so their actual impact on whether they win or lose is negligible.

win rates over a long period of time no matter how good you are and even 60% requires masterful play and generally focusing on OP tanks, skipping stock grinds with free XP and so on.

I think the effective cap for solo winrate, stripping out factors like OP tank choice, goldspam, etc. is about 65%. Three players platooned with optimal tank choices can run 85-90% consistently. (Platooning doesn't automatically mean you win more. It magnifies the effect of existing skill levels. If three good players platoon up, they'll increase their winrate, if three bad players platoon up, they'll hamper their team more. If three indifferent 48-49%ers toon up they'll still be indifferent.)

[Grif]

Ah. I would consider doing that too, but I just blew a bunch of free exp to get to the M4 while it was on sale. Now I'm saving up to get the KV-1, because my T-28 has a tendency to spontaneously explode. I'll add it to the queue though if it's predecessors annoy me too much.

The Sexton II and Birch Gun are actively cancerous to play. I'd advice only daily doubles until you get the Bishop. (Well Birch Gun has a turret, but it's so inaccurate that you may as well forget the turret exists.)

On the arty debate (again), I honestly think these players who are zealously anti-arty are just upset because arty negates the traditional tanking skills (positioning, camouflage, angling) and provides lower-skilled players a bigger than usual impact on the game. Whether or not this is good for the game, is entirely up to you.

Personally I like arty because it forces players to adapt to the situation and the occasional one shot doesn't really bother me.

[AdmiralCheez]

The Sexton II and Birch Gun are actively cancerous to play. I'd advice only daily doubles until you get the Bishop. (Well Birch Gun has a turret, but it's so inaccurate that you may as well forget the turret exists.)

Actually, I already have the Valentine, which apparently leads straight into the Bishop, so I can pretty much skip over those two completely.

[KillianHawkeye]

I may just be an Xbox noob, but I actually enjoy playing artillery. It's a very different experience from normal tank play. It requires patience and good guessing and the ability to keep an eye on the entire field of battle.

Of course, I also like it when the enemy team has artillery units that I can sneak up on with a fast light tank.

[Jimorian]

Question for PC people: are people there convinced that the MM intentionally tries to break winning streaks to force people into 50% win rates?

One thing to keep in mind is for most people, even those who know better, there's a HUGE observational bias to what they believe is happening with the MM. Everybody remembers each time they're the low tier, while being top tier is "expected" so you don't note when it happens, so you get at least one person per match whining about their tank not belonging there. Same goes for people who talk about all the extra losses during 5x weekends. Well, that's not true. What's really happening is that the influx of casual players means that it's harder for good tankers to use their abilities to help their team if they happen to be the side with more noobs, and it's that feeling of loss of control that becomes the memorable element for that observation, while being on the side with fewer noobs gets quickly forgotten in the rush of an easy victory.

And to expand on what GloatingSwine was saying, I always figure there are about 40% of the matches where we'll win no matter what any individual player does, and 40% we'll lose no matter what. it's that final 20% where the balance of skills and tanks in the match are close enough that individual efforts start to be a real factor. Sometimes, it's just somebody being a beast and scoring insane damage and kills, but other times, it could be making that small split-second decision on whether to continue the advance, or make a dash back to base to defend against a cap attempt. Heck, it's possible to score zero damage and get killed in the 2nd minute, but if you managed to slow the advance on your flank by playing peek-a-boo with the enemy just long enough, that may be exactly what caused your team to win in the end.

Finally, I think it's important to remember that any game that's based on a multi-player DPS race is always balanced on a knife's edge. Whichever side suffers that first death immediately has that much less DPS going out of their guns than the enemy, and if it's not immediately balanced out by a kill on your side, can cascade very quickly into a route. So most games that end up 15-5 are NOT because one team is filled with losers who don't know how to drive a tank, after all, even tank company battles will go this way on occasion, but went that way probably because one of the top tanks on a flank lost their particular duel with the enemy, and then the firepower and positional difference slipped just enough for it to get worse really quickly.

[SanguisAevum]

You went to the trouble of signing up to a forum, with that user name, and for your first post there, you posted this in a reasoned, well written thread about arty... (ignore the poll, it was obviously sarcastic... the CONTENT of the 1st post is a very good analysis on how arty affects the game in a negative way.

Professor_Moar_Arty, on 23 May 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:


ho hum...another day...another arty whine from Garbad

/yawn


why here? did you get banned from posting I hate arty thread # 872350 on the official forums?

#bangarbadforrepetitivewhining

Your follow up posts confirmed that you were solely there to troll garbad, and not to contribute to the debate in the thread itself, or learn about tanks, or provide knowledge to those that want to learn.

You were warned swiftly not to post crap, and then banned when you ignored the warning.

Also... Unlike the WG forums, Moderation decisions on WOTLABS are made public and are allowed to be commented on and questioned IN PUBLIC.

Working as intended IMO.


"MM Rigging" is just another one of the many crutches that baddies like to believe in. Jimor has a very good point though... A decisive kill at the right time can snowball a match into a roflstomp very, very quickly. The thing is... good players are more likely to win one of those decisive locational victories. Its part of the reason I use XMV... so I know who on the enemy team I need to try to shut down.

[Celesyne]

baddies

Regardless of another forums rules and drama and what not. This is the one singular thing I would like to see disappear from the gaming community. There is no reason to get into name calling. Yes someone may not have the same skill as you at the game, this doesn't make them bad or any less intellectually gifted than you, and someone deciding to be an ass about it ruins the gaming experience for everyone. I may or may not be God's gift to MMO X, but that doesn't give me any right to insult someone for not having my skill at the game. All this does is make the community worse, make us all look bad in the public light, and make a lot of people feel bad, for no damned reason.

On the Arty subject. Its in the game, from the beginning. It is part of the checks and balances of power across the board. Do you like it? Doesn't matter. Just because you can create a forum designed to whining doesn't mean your opinion will sway the designers when a large portion of the community enjoys playing them. Arty is supposed to deter the superiority of heavy tanks to roam in the open, deter the big gun TD's from camping and puts the balance of power more into the hands of mediums and lights who are normally out gunned and out armored.

[SanguisAevum]

Yes someone may not have the same skill as you at the game, this doesn't make them bad or any less intellectually gifted than you, and someone deciding to be an ass about it ruins the gaming experience for everyone. I may or may not be God's gift to MMO X, but that doesn't give me any right to insult someone for not having my skill at the game. All this does is make the community worse, make us all look bad in the public light, and make a lot of people feel bad, for no damned reason.

On the Arty subject. Its in the game, from the beginning. It is part of the checks and balances of power across the board. Do you like it? Doesn't matter. Just because you can create a forum designed to whining doesn't mean your opinion will sway the designers when a large portion of the community enjoys playing them. Arty is supposed to deter the superiority of heavy tanks to roam in the open, deter the big gun TD's from camping and puts the balance of power more into the hands of mediums and lights who are normally out gunned and out armored.

There is a difference between...


1 - A player of WOT that doesn't do well, but realises he has room for improvement and tries to better himself, and learn more about the game.

2 - A player that doesn't do well, but uses idiotic excuses, spurious logic, and doesn't try to better themselves or learn anything about the game for that matter.

The former is a WOT player, and can be helped to improve if they so wish. I and most good players will do our utmost to help that player get better.

The later is a BADDIE, a tomato, a potato, a waste of a team slot, and a down right LIABILITY.

Each team is populated by random people, Each one of those random people has a responsibility to the 14 other players on his team to try to do as well as possible. Anything other than that is pure selfishness. If someone is WILLFULLY playing badly (READ - Red players... the kind of players that are so mind numbingly bad at the game that is HAS to be wilful ignorance)... then the 14 other players on that team damn well have the right to call them out on it!


On arty... You are correct, arty IS suppose to deter camping and promote flowing games.

BUT IT DOES EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE AND THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE WITH IT.

High alpha Arty (and TDs for that matter) promote stationary camping in arty safe locations. No one wants to risk an engagement in the open because one lucky click from a T10 arty can WRECK your game. (same issue as the 183, BTW)

Compound that with most arty players target selection and you have a toxic metagame. (Most arty, given the choice, will drop a shell on a medium or light rather than a camping heavy... because... hey... more chance to score damage / kills)

If all arty was like the FV304... there would NOT be a problem. It can deal with campers with a steady stream of low damage shells.. A camper targeted by an FV either has to move, or risk being picked to death over a minute or two... ALL arty should be like this at all tiers... and NOT the orbital death lasers of luck that they are at the moment.

If you cant see this, then you have a very flawed understanding on the meta-game.

[AMX]

Each team is populated by random people, Each one of those random people has a responsibility to the 14 other players on his team to try to do as well as possible.

...why?

Why am I supposed to have any responsibility to the 14 lemmings who were randomly assigned green symbols, but not to the 15 lemmings who were randomly assigned red symbols?

[Celesyne]

...why?

Why am I supposed to have any responsibility to the 14 lemmings who were randomly assigned green symbols, but not to the 15 lemmings who were randomly assigned red symbols?

Exactly. It is called a game for a reason. I play it to have fun. Once My enjoyment has to be put on hold in order for 14 other people to not have some sort of issue, it becomes a job. Is it selfish? Yes. Is it wrong? No. Why do I play a game? To entertain... me.

[SanguisAevum]

Then why are you playing a TEAM GAME????

If you only care about YOUR gameplay then stop playing games that FORCE other people to play with you and your bad attitude to team work. Your slot could be taken by someone who actually wants to help the team win.

And how, exactly does your enjoyment get put on hold by playing the game well, and winning due to good team work?

Or are you saying you enjoy loosing?

Jeez.

Why even bother playing a team focused MMO if you don't care about actually playing as part of a team?!?

WOT is the very definition of a team based pvp game. There is no option to play solo. When you click play you are asigned 14 TEAM MATES and it is you 15's task to work together to beat the opposing 15. That is the core of the game.

You are saying you are not interested in the other 14 people... Congrats, you are part of the problem.

Seriously... I don't get it... ?

[AdmiralCheez]

If someone is WILLFULLY playing badly (READ - Red players... the kind of players that are so mind numbingly bad at the game that is HAS to be wilful ignorance)... then the 14 other players on that team damn well have the right to call them out on it!

I take offense to this statement. Your precious XVM still rates me as a "Red" player, but I consistently perform better than over half of my team. At the end of the battle, I almost always place in the top seven of highest experience earned. I've earned Top Guns and High Calibers, Invaders, Defenders, Kamikazes, and Reapers. I have a few Ace Tanker badges, with a lot of 1st class mastery. The average experience I earn each round is slowly going up, meaning I must be improving. I have never, EVER, purposefully played a match badly for the sake of screwing with my teammates.

And yet, despite putting my best effort into it each time, and doing considerably better than I did at the start, your XVM doesn't even consider me an AVERAGE player. If that is not even average, what in the world does a GOOD player look like? Do they kill the entire enemy team single-handedly every match? And then capture the base by themselves just for fun?

I'm sick to death of people using numbers to judge others. I shouldn't be subjected to things like, "Go back to Tier 1, you red noob," before the match has even started. I outlasted that guy and performed better than him. I got called out for "rushing too early and dying, noob." We won that match and I earned second-highest experience.

So, if you're going to insult me over the way I play the game, do it when I make a stupid mistake. I'll acknowledge that I probably deserved it. Just don't do it because a little red number says I made some errors at the start, and I haven't played enough matches to change it.

[Grif]

Eeeh, I never judge someone by XVM/WN8/WR, even if I do use it to sometimes scope out the team that I have been given. But when someone starts giving out advice/commands/instructions, I'll take their stats into consideration on whether or not to follow him/her, especially if it's against my general understanding of the game. That's about the only time I use it for.

[AMX]

Then why are you playing a TEAM GAME????

Because there's no comparable single-player game that's also f2p.

If you only care about YOUR gameplay then stop playing games that FORCE other people to play with you and your bad attitude to team work. Your slot could be taken by someone who actually wants to help the team win.

And how, exactly does your enjoyment get put on hold by playing the game well, and winning due to good team work?

Or are you saying you enjoy loosing?

Jeez.

There's a pretty big leap in your logic there...

Why even bother playing a team focused MMO if you don't care about actually playing as part of a team?!?

See above.

WOT is the very definition of a team based pvp game. There is no option to play solo. When you click play you are asigned 14 TEAM MATES and it is you 15's task to work together to beat the opposing 15. That is the core of the game.

You are saying you are not interested in the other 14 people... Congrats, you are part of the problem.

Seriously... I don't get it... ?

[otakuryoga]

You went to the trouble of signing up to a forum, with that user name, and for your first post there, you posted this in a reasoned, well written thread about arty... (ignore the poll, it was obviously sarcastic... the CONTENT of the 1st post is a very good analysis on how arty affects the game in a negative way.

except no...he does a variation on that poll monthly if not weekly and sends it to WG to "prove" that people want arty removed
as for "well reasoned"? ok lets see his points
1) Arty forces Bad Gameplay. ---100% opinion..where's the fact?
2) Arty has excessive alpha. --- so do all the big td's
3) Arty is low skill, luck based gameplay. 1st part..again 100% opinion, 2nd part..yeah..thanks to the nerfs you need luck to even hit what you shoot at
4) Arty is unhistorical. ---so are almost 1/2 the other vehicles in the game..this is NOT a sim
5) Arty is unfun to play with or against. ---again 100% opinion..wheres the fact? many people do have fun playing arty(spoiler alert: >>I<< have fun playing arty)

these are the same points he has made in 50+ other antiarty threads..where is the reason?
HE does not like arty so believes no one should be allowed to play it

Your follow up posts confirmed that you were solely there to troll garbad, and not to contribute to the debate in the thread itself, or learn about tanks, or provide knowledge to those that want to learn.

You were warned swiftly not to post crap, and then banned when you ignored the warning.

Also... Unlike the WG forums, Moderation decisions on WOTLABS are made public and are allowed to be commented on and questioned IN PUBLIC.

Working as intended IMO.

really? one post i asked a perfectly legitimate question
they just announced they will be adding awards for arty...meaning there is zero chance of arty being removed..so i asked how those who dont like arty were feeling about that

to bolded part..and 99% of responses to the thread are "right on arty sucks" or of course the ubiqitous "arty players are cancer" type...those are considered "contributing to the debate"?
howbout "Lickers gonna lick"? is that "contributing to the debate"?
howbout the one mentioned earlier that was pure profanity?(btw against their forum rules...yet since it was directed at a "effing cancer clicker fa**ot seems to be perfectly ok)

and no..there was no warning about the 1st post..just the redpost and 2day ban
and what in the other 3 posts warranted any further ban?
and what warranted the forum title? (i asked you this before and you did not answer)

1 - A player of WOT that doesn't do well, but realises he has room for improvement and tries to better himself, and learn more about the game.

2 - A player that doesn't do well, but uses idiotic excuses, spurious logic, and doesn't try to better themselves or learn anything about the game for that matter.

The former is a WOT player, and can be helped to improve if they so wish. I and most good players will do our utmost to help that player get better.

they are BOTH WoT players
--self scrubbed the remainder of comment as it felt too confrontational--

On arty... You are correct, arty IS suppose to deter camping and promote flowing games.

BUT IT DOES EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE AND THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE WITH IT.

it has exactly the opposite effect in some games and the exact intended effect in some games
thats the beauty of this game..EVERY SINGLE MATCH IS DIFFERENT..if they were all the same we could just instantly know the winner at match-up screen and not need to play at all

High alpha Arty (and TDs for that matter) promote stationary camping in arty safe locations. No one wants to risk an engagement in the open because one lucky click from a T10 arty can WRECK your game. (same issue as the 183, BTW)

that reads just exactly the same as
--High alpha TDs promote stationary camping in TD safe locations. No one wants to risk an engagement in the open because one lucky click from a T10 TD can WRECK your game.--
or
--High alpha heavies promote stationary camping in safe locations. No one wants to risk an engagement in the open because one lucky click from a T10 heavy can WRECK your game.--

newsflash..one lucky click from ANY vehicle can WRECK your game (ammo rack/track destroyed in sight of multiple tanks/gun destroyed/turret lock)

Compound that with most arty players target selection and you have a toxic metagame. (Most arty, given the choice, will drop a shell on a medium or light rather than a camping heavy... because... hey... more chance to score damage / kills)

so....you target only heavy tanks until there are no more of them?
is that what you are saying?
or perhaps...you take the shot you have..maybe a full broadside on a medium instead of a shot at just the edge of that heavy's turret?

why do you fault arty for taking a shot thats going to do something effective rather than something that won't?
if that heavy is protected and the medium isn't..why the FRICK would arty shoot at the heavy over the med?

and NOT the orbital death lasers of luck that they are at the moment.

If you cant see this, then you have a very flawed understanding on the meta-game.

well.. somebody certainly has a flawed understanding of the game...

with PERFECT targeting along the long axis of a stationary tank (cause long/short has more variation than left/right for most arty reticules)
MAYBE 40% of shots will land on target
wow...that truly is LASER like precision

Then why are you playing a TEAM GAME????

If you only care about YOUR gameplay then stop playing games that FORCE other people to play with you and your bad attitude to team work. Your slot could be taken by someone who actually wants to help the team win.

And how, exactly does your enjoyment get put on hold by playing the game well, and winning due to good team work?

Or are you saying you enjoy loosing?

Jeez.

Why even bother playing a team focused MMO if you don't care about actually playing as part of a team?!?

WOT is the very definition of a team based pvp game. There is no option to play solo. When you click play you are asigned 14 TEAM MATES and it is you 15's task to work together to beat the opposing 15. That is the core of the game.

You are saying you are not interested in the other 14 people... Congrats, you are part of the problem.

Seriously... I don't get it... ?

because we have seen enough "super unicum purple power player" types that care ONLY about doing what raises their magic number
--i will give credit..less of those since the change from wn7 to wn8..since wn7 favored kills so they would hide and do nothing til popping out to take kill shots..now they get more from damage than kills

i am not purple..i don't care
when i see 13 tanks go one way i will join the 1 tank on the off side..i KNOW i am going to die w/o a kill and probably w/o doing damage = to my own hp (2 things that really hurt that precious rating)
i am hoping to just delay them for our big side to roll and/or come back

you will not see a purple doing that cause their precious magic number will go down
who is the better TEAM player?

[MCerberus]

Eeeh, I never judge someone by XVM/WN8/WR, even if I do use it to sometimes scope out the team that I have been given. But when someone starts giving out advice/commands/instructions, I'll take their stats into consideration on whether or not to follow him/her, especially if it's against my general understanding of the game. That's about the only time I use it for.

I guess that's one thing the Xbox version taught me: stats are easily inflated.
Anyone that was a beta tester essentially got a good thousand games before the post-launch guys got any good. And then they got to ride the 'I have a higher than average tier' train.
Plus they know what tanks can pad stats infinitely...

...
...
I have a 70% WR a 4.0 damage ratio and a 5.0 kill ratio on the Hellcat.
Because HELLCAT

[Jimorian]

because we have seen enough "super unicum purple power player" types that care ONLY about doing what raises their magic number
--i will give credit..less of those since the change from wn7 to wn8..since wn7 favored kills so they would hide and do nothing til popping out to take kill shots..now they get more from damage than kills

i am not purple..i don't care
when i see 13 tanks go one way i will join the 1 tank on the off side..i KNOW i am going to die w/o a kill and probably w/o doing damage = to my own hp (2 things that really hurt that precious rating)
i am hoping to just delay them for our big side to roll and/or come back

you will not see a purple doing that cause their precious magic number will go down
who is the better TEAM player?

You stole the post I was about to make. Covering the weak flank is something I also try to do unless I was started on one of the extreme sides where crossing over would take too much time. I also am very aggressive about taking advanced sheltered positions to give my team that advantage. Sometimes that means I get left hanging in the wind, but if that's the case, I start deploying whatever delaying tactic I can work out, even if my "stats" take a hit because of it. Earlier, a T8 game in Lakeville, it was just my T34, a Super Pershing, and one arty holding the valley against 6 attackers and their supporting arty. Me and the Pershing kept tracking the TDs trying to crest the gap so that the arty could get good shots. We both died doing very little damage, with maybe a bit of marginal spotting damage, but when the enemy finally broke through, the rest of our team was already at their base.

I also don't have tricked out tanks or crews because I play a LOT of different tanks, so my credits go to buying new tanks, not optional equipment (I of course upgrade everything in the tech tree), and I haven't played enough games in any one tank to have a crew with 100% additional skills yet, just 100% basic training + working on their first skill. According to the "elites", I'm handicapping my team from the get go just because I enjoy variety. And yet because I understand basic tactics, strategy, and game theory better than most, and with 10,000+ matches under my belt, I have plenty of practice at the skills necessary, I can fairly regularly carry my team and make enough of a major impact on enough matches to continually improve my win rate after a mildly dismal start (I was at about 48% after 4000 matches). The reason I took up the challenge of attempting to erase the losing record of any tank I've driven is because I CAN eventually turn them all around, even with tanks that suck. A "below average" player wouldn't be able to do that.

The "don't cap" argument makes sense now, too, because what it really means is that cappers lower the potential pool of damage points, which would also cause a hit to the WN8 rating of anybody that cares. Talk about a toxic metagame!

[AdmiralCheez]

Here's another thing about XVM ratings. Sure, it uses actual data provided by the game, but who wrote the formula that makes the rating? The developers? No, some player. Even if it's not intentional, there's going to be a lot of bias for certain strategies. Why do one thing when I know my rating will go up if I do another thing? Turning around to go help someone in trouble won't improve my rating, but sitting here in a crowd of ten tanks duking it out on the front lines might, if I get a hit in. All the ratings do is create this artificial "perfect strategy" that will make you look like an awesome player, but does nothing to promote teamwork.

As was said before, every match plays out differently. Yet, the XVM community apparently insists that their "research" was done by experimentation and scientific method. Here's the thing though. Every match has different players, playing different tanks, with different tier spread, on different maps, and they each play a different way every time. Try presenting a report to an actual scientific community with that many uncontrolled variables, and let me know when they stop laughing.

The community might very well have people that try to help others, and that's a good thing. But they're also the ones that wrote this rating system, and I just can't help but feel like their help is only going to promote their way of playing the game, at the expense of things like teamwork, good sportsmanship, and variety in gameplay.

[Jimorian]

Agreed, there's a lot of selection bias that goes into what "counts" towards a rating. I do think the WN8 is slightly more meaningful than previous ratings, but the nature of the beast is that once you create a "Score", players will play to it instead of strictly for wins. This phenomenon also exists in workplace culture where as soon as management sets targets to measure the relative value of employees, you get behavior designed to meet those targets even if it's actually detrimental to the company. My old work designed customer surveys supposedly to get feedback on how to improve service, but then immediately undermined it all by outright ordering us to tell the customers what score to put down.

Another thing that's only semi-understood is the predicted win rate. The reason it bears out statistically is because it's a recursive measure like the ELO system for chess. A player with a 400-point difference wins 92% of the time because the point difference is defined that way in the formula. Likewise, take any arbitrary ratings system for WOT, run an analysis against enough matches and you WILL work out a meaningful win % that will bear out over time. It still doesn't mean any particular match is "hopeless" or an easy victory.

[otakuryoga]

here is another point...
i just played a match on Lakeville..south start

no one went mid road so i pulled out from going city to take up spotting/sniping position..i got hit 2x getting there
enemy never tried coming down the road..i never took a shot all game
does this mean i am a bad player? a "tomato"?

according to wn8 it does
i am the deepest red possible for that game

The "don't cap" argument makes sense now, too, because what it really means is that cappers lower the potential pool of damage points, which would also cause a hit to the WN8 rating of anybody that cares. Talk about a toxic metagame!

heh..i hadn't even thought of that

[Grif]

You stole the post I was about to make. Covering the weak flank is something I also try to do unless I was started on one of the extreme sides where crossing over would take too much time. I also am very aggressive about taking advanced sheltered positions to give my team that advantage. Sometimes that means I get left hanging in the wind, but if that's the case, I start deploying whatever delaying tactic I can work out, even if my "stats" take a hit because of it. Earlier, a T8 game in Lakeville, it was just my T34, a Super Pershing, and one arty holding the valley against 6 attackers and their supporting arty. Me and the Pershing kept tracking the TDs trying to crest the gap so that the arty could get good shots. We both died doing very little damage, with maybe a bit of marginal spotting damage, but when the enemy finally broke through, the rest of our team was already at their base.

I'll just note that it is hilarious easy to hold people up with inferior numbers in that valley. You won't be able to do that in most other maps.

According to the "elites", I'm handicapping my team from the get go just because I enjoy variety. And yet because I understand basic tactics, strategy, and game theory better than most, and with 10,000+ matches under my belt, I have plenty of practice at the skills necessary, I can fairly regularly carry my team and make enough of a major impact on enough matches to continually improve my win rate after a mildly dismal start (I was at about 48% after 4000 matches). The reason I took up the challenge of attempting to erase the losing record of any tank I've driven is because I CAN eventually turn them all around, even with tanks that suck. A "below average" player wouldn't be able to do that.

Please don't use a strawman to argue. I don't actually see anyone stating this. You're a reasonably experienced and decent player, and no one except obnoxious stat padders would claim otherwise.

The "don't cap" argument makes sense now, too, because what it really means is that cappers lower the potential pool of damage points, which would also cause a hit to the WN8 rating of anybody that cares. Talk about a toxic metagame!

Again, please don't strawman a non-existent argument. The original point was that people cap far too early in a game and thus lowers the XP gain of everyone in the game. WN8 doesn't even come into the picture.

Here's another thing about XVM ratings. Sure, it uses actual data provided by the game, but who wrote the formula that makes the rating? The developers? No, some player. Even if it's not intentional, there's going to be a lot of bias for certain strategies. Why do one thing when I know my rating will go up if I do another thing? Turning around to go help someone in trouble won't improve my rating, but sitting here in a crowd of ten tanks duking it out on the front lines might, if I get a hit in. All the ratings do is create this artificial "perfect strategy" that will make you look like an awesome player, but does nothing to promote teamwork.

As was said before, every match plays out differently. Yet, the XVM community apparently insists that their "research" was done by experimentation and scientific method. Here's the thing though. Every match has different players, playing different tanks, with different tier spread, on different maps, and they each play a different way every time. Try presenting a report to an actual scientific community with that many uncontrolled variables, and let me know when they stop laughing.

The community might very well have people that try to help others, and that's a good thing. But they're also the ones that wrote this rating system, and I just can't help but feel like their help is only going to promote their way of playing the game, at the expense of things like teamwork, good sportsmanship, and variety in gameplay.

I honestly think you two are just grossly misunderstanding what WN8 (which seems to be used interchangeably with XVM) measures and how it measures them. At its core, WN8 weighs in all the stats that is currently publicly available, but the most important would be win rate, and damage done per game (DPG). Other stats have minimal impact on this.

But "DPG doesn't promote teamwork!" I can hear some of you argue. True, it doesn't directly measure teamwork. But it does measure the ability of a tanker to do damage in any particular tank. Whether by working with their team, reading the situation correctly and taking the appropriate measure and simply being in the right location at the right time. By doing damage, the tanker is helping the team by destroying tanks, reducing the enemy hp to the point where allies can finish them off, or simply scaring off what might have been a disastrous push.

While holding the line as Jimor stated might win certain matches, almost every match is won by first dealing damage and dealing more damage than the enemy so that they're destroyed or reduced to an ineffective fighting force. You might think it is an overstated statistic, but damage does and will win games for you. The thing that separates average players like me and really good players is that they know how to deal more damage in a given situation than your average players. No, sitting in a crowd of ten tanks in a group does not help farm DPG by the way. It's a surefire way to lower your DPG, since you'll be sharing damage with nine other tanks.

You'd find most good/great players playing their own game and often leading a push, flanking an enemy or so on. Of course, WN8 isn't a perfect metric. It's too heavily skewed towards damage. It doesn't take into account spotting damage or potential damage taken. Yet it remains a useful metric to gauge a player's ability, since damage is what wins games.

As for winrate, well, they're a reasonably good measure of a player's overall performance. Unlike WN8, which is excessive skewed towards damage, winrate is a reasonably good composite of how well a player performs in general. (whether by doing damage, scouting/spotting or simply being in the right place at the right time) As with WN8, it isn't perfect.

Taken together though, they provide a remarkable view of how a player have been performing. While the odd game of zero damage might come up occasionally even for the best players, in the long term, the statistics will even out and you get a clear picture of one's performance.

That said, I never liked putting down someone purely because of their stats, though I can understand why. In the official forums, it's common to see players putting forth erroneous strategies or information, and more often than not, they have subpar stats.

[Jimorian]

That's why I said I thought WN8 was a definite improvement. While wins is what I care about, a stat that dealt only in wins is fairly easy farmable with platoons of traditionally OP tanks, and thus wouldn't really be an accurate reflection of pure skill. What CAN be done, and I've sure the stats jocks at WOTLabs have done, is look at the recursive team win % numbers, and figure out that one rating ends up with a higher reliability (taking less results to approach the predicted number) over another, then use that figure to further refine the system. Multi-player ratings, particularly one with 15 variables per side, will always be far less reliable than any kind of direct head-to-head system, however.

The thing about a damage-race game like this, is that fundamentally, the roles eventually fall into the standard MMO/RPG tropes. You have a "tank" that can either absorb more damage than usual, or has a way of deflecting/dodging shots that lowers the enemy's total DPS output, you have heavy/medium/light melee with direct damage shots, you have "ranged" DPS in artillery and TDs played from cover, and you have "buffs" with equipment slots and on the field with the kinds of force multipliers that good scouting and positioning can give the team, with the corresponding de-buffs coming from purposely attempting critical hits with HE or shot placement. The only thing WOT doesn't have is a healer class, just a limited ability to counter debuffs if you buy the right "spells".

I could torture this metaphor all day, but it points out how really really hard it is to escape this pattern from cropping up in game design, and you could probably replace all the terms in the anti-arty argument with whatever the current hated class there is in WOW, and you wouldn't notice the difference.

[AdmiralCheez]

(Disclaimer: Any bold that appears was added by me)

I honestly think you two are just grossly misunderstanding what WN8 (which seems to be used interchangeably with XVM) measures and how it measures them. At its core, WN8 weighs in all the stats that is currently publicly available, but the most important would be win rate, and damage done per game (DPG). Other stats have minimal impact on this.

Win rate - Even with great skill, it's still largely dependent on the other 14 people on your team. I know earlier in the thread it was said that good players can bump their win rate to something like 65% or so. But that sounds like something that you'd have to spend thousands of matches trying to improve, and it still doesn't account for randomly generated teams.

Damage per game - Yes, obviously doing damage to enemy players will win the game, because that's what the game is about. But bottom-tier tanks have a harder time doing damage than top-tier tanks. Light tanks do less damage than heavies and TDs. So, how about helping the team do damage by scouting?

It doesn't take into account spotting damage or potential damage taken.

Oh. Never mind then. So WN8 ignores a completely valid method of playing? One that the game itself gives exp for?

The thing that separates average players like me and really good players is that they know how to deal more damage in a given situation than your average players.

Right. If I know I'm going to be outgunned, then I'll change tactics. Usually by helping the heavy hitters (like heavies, TDs, and SPGs) hit targets through spotting. If I can get to a position to flank, I'll go for it, but that doesn't always come up.

You'd find most good/great players playing their own game and often leading a push, flanking an enemy or so on.

Could you clarify that for me, please? Because I initially took that to mean that good players just do what they want and ignore the team.

Of course, WN8 isn't a perfect metric.

As for winrate ... it isn't perfect.

I appreciate that you acknowledge this. My problem is not with you and others that feel this way, rather, my problem is with the large number of people that believe it is perfect and use it to unfairly judge others. If we didn't have this rating system, I wouldn't be accused of cheating because there's "no way a red player can get top gun." Or being told to quit before the match starts because I'm not good enough to play in Tier 3. They're the toxic element to this game, and they're being enabled by a number that doesn't account for everything and largely serves to stroke egos. I'll grant that some people might find it useful in certain situations, but if it's going to have this much influence on a game, it should better reflect all valid playstyles.

[Leon]

On arty... You are correct, arty IS suppose to deter camping and promote flowing games.

BUT IT DOES EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE AND THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE WITH IT.

Yet they still camp in games with no arty. The problem is not arty, its people inability to possibly risk the pixel tank they are driving possibly taking damage (any damage, let alone a often inaccurate Arty shot). Tank HP is a important resource and to get the most use from you it have to spend it wisely ~ cowering at the back of the map behind something hard is not spending it wisely, its wasting it and your usefulness in a team.
The Problem of camping is exacerbated by some maps that encourage it (particularly at high levels where view range is long)


I'm of the thought that anyone calling out another play for being "bad" based on xvm or what ever is themselves a bad player, a good player is going to accept that not everyone is as good as they are and yet even those that are not good all the time can and do have stellar games that rival what the so called "elite" have. Remember that the scum always floats to the top.

newsflash..one lucky click from ANY vehicle can WRECK your game (ammo rack/track destroyed in sight of multiple tanks/gun destroyed/turret lock)

Yep, i think the best i have ever done was Ammo rack a full health IS-3 with my Cromwell