Erfworld 21

[foil_fedora]

He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.

I think you can get much greater range out of big, heavy siege engines built in-place on city walls than you'll get from smaller, lighter field pieces... but if you have *enough* field pieces to concentrate on one weak point, you may be able to create your own breach before the wall-mounted engines can pound your lighter pieces to tinder.

In addition, send a dirtamancer *under* the walls with the marbits, I dunno what a dirtamancer can do (besides animate crap golems), but if it involves moving large quantities of earth in a short time, then one dirtamancer should be able to easily undermine a section of wall.

If Ansom doesn't pick the point for the breach(es), Parson is going to pick it for him, and it'll lead to one serious trap (then lots of uncroaking work for Wanda).

Loving the tactical discussion!

[foil_fedora]

A tactic for the defenders in this situation is put most of your archers and boiling oil at a particular spot along the wall. Then have your dirtomancer soften the rock under the wall at that point, so that's the section of wall that gets breached first. The attackers go through there, which is exactly where you're waiting for them! If the wall's eventually going to be breached, have it happen on your terms.

Props to Cruiser1 for getting this idea up before I did... must read *all* the posts before replying!

[SteveMB]

Tunnel warfare is a nasty thing. He's also counting on Stanely (joke's on him, the Tool's not in charge anymore) to send Undead (Uncroaked) troops down there, for some odd reason (unless Uncroaked retain their intelligence, they need to be commanded, and few will attempt to command masses of mindless undead inside cramped little tunnels... doesn't work good).

As you said, he's used to fighting against Stanley -- if he knows that this is just the sort of trick Stanley falls for every time, it makes perfect sense.

Wasting time surrounding the city is a bad idea.

That may be another case of tactics tailored for his (expected) opponent -- he may have (correctly) guessed that Stanley intends to slip out and save his own skin. Forcing him to do so immediately or else be trapped could be beneficial in either case (the former could result in a leadership vacuum or new management with the sense to surrender; the latter will leave Stanley panicky and thus acting dumber than ever).

(making multiple breaches or just swiftly isolating the city and siege-ing it into non-existance is a more effective plan).

That would take even longer than surrounding the city and pouring through the first breach, and Ansom has to wrap this up before the alliance starts fracturing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That would take even longer than surrounding the city and pouring through the first breach, and Ansom has to wrap this up before the alliance starts fracturing.

I would disagree that it would take longer. I'd start pounding away with siege engines as soon as they could range on the walls. Making a few workable breaches in the walls on one side makes you able to put more troops into the area, letting you take more advantage of your 25:1 numerical advantage. If you let them choke you off, you loose most of your numerical advantage, because only a small percentage of your forces can be applied to it. So use your catapults or whatever to make three or four large-ish breaches in one section of the wall, then send in the Elves with your more serious troops behind them. While they are doing that, elevate your siege engines to arc into the actual structure itself so that by the time your troops get there, they will have an easier time of it, then stop bombardment so you don't hit your own troops. Friendly Fire Isn't.

This would take less time than simply surrounding the castle then trying to work breeches in the walls with infantry, then dogpiling into the first breech that presents itself.

[innovan]

So first thing, destroy the road up so it takes more than five turns to cross, buying you more time.

Also, aren't Handsome's troops all ground based, while Tool has the air troops, the ability to scout, the ability to make ranged fire attacks against melee troops, and the advantage of movement?

[chionophile]

Also, aren't Handsome's troops all ground based, while Tool has the air troops, the ability to scout, the ability to make ranged fire attacks against melee troops, and the advantage of movement?

Ansom has Doombats, Gwiffons and Orlies at the very least. I'd be willing to bet that there are a few other air units that we haven't been introduced to yet.

[Calsan]

Why is Link the Eager elf?

To awnser that question you just have to play the zelda games and remember that link is an elf. It's not really explainable unless you play it.

Sufficiency to say Link is a very enthusiastic character, whit all it's running arround and stuff.

[slayerx]

A tactic for the defenders in this situation is put most of your archers and boiling oil at a particular spot along the wall. Then have your dirtomancer soften the rock under the wall at that point, so that's the section of wall that gets breached first. The attackers go through there, which is exactly where you're waiting for them! If the wall's eventually going to be breached, have it happen on your terms.

A decent plan, but not one without it's flaws... for one thing is picking where and when to make that weakened wall... put it in the back, and you risk the chance of ansom's forces breaking through the front before the back, since they'll be pounding on it longer... put in the front, and ansom's forces may break through too soon, before they surrounded the castle... thus his full force will be pooring through that crack and such numbers may just plain overwelm the defences... the timing is rather crucial...

The plan also posses a huge risk... by concetrating the most of the defence at one point, Ansom maybe able to foresee the trap coming... especially after they break through and notices his forces are getting killed fatser than expected... however, Ansom can just order his troops to fall back once he notices, more then likely with the cannon fodder elves being the only ones to fall into the trap... Ansom's troops fall back and order to breach another part of the wall, at this point, that breach they allowed in the wall, becomes and handicap for the Gobwin forces. Not only do they need to move their defence to prevent a second breach, but they now have to keep a healthy portion of their troops near he first breach to make sure Ansom doesn't send troops through there... in essence, it may be too risky to allow a breach and thus should find ways to keep the walls up; at 25:1 allowing the wall to be breach seems too risky

As for the comments about killing marbits in the tunnels... here we kinda got to question the purpose of those tunnels... it could be that the tunnels are very important to gobwin, and thus it becomes far less likely that gobwin would damage the tunnels to kill the marbits, in favor of killing them the old fashion way (somethine ansom may know about the enemy and be relying on)... however, i wouldn't be surprised if Parson thought that no matter how important the tunnels were, they were a nessasary sacrifice

It's not as if Ansom's plans are perfect... but some poeple seem to make it seem like this battle will be easier to defend against than it actually is. with such a huge disadvantage, their gonna need some good planning. i can think of a few stradegies i might try, though i would have to make assumptions as to what the gobwin's can do (kinda like assuming the dirtomancer's can soften the stones walls)

[fehler]

The uncroaked aren't mindless. Manpower the Temporary was able to follow a somewhat complex order from Wanda after his uncroaking.

[Gamebird]

Like Parson said, battles are often won or lost on a host of small details. You can't just say "Okay, that's Ansom's plan" and then speak definitively about whether he will win or lose.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, those! *gets it* Cleverly hidden in plain sight.
Some great art in this comic.
Wonder how the life expectancy among Eager Elves compares to the other Elf races...

Probably better than the Unlucky Elves.

[Doug Lampert]

Ansom is... not a very smart guy.

He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.

We don't know the rules of this game. But actual siege engines prior to cannons simply COULD NOT breach defended stone walls from range (much less pound them to rubble). Weapons able to breach were things like rams and even those normally worked only on gates. Even with cannon it could and often did take months to create a single practical breach if it could be done at all. Without cannon (or powerful magic) forget it. You can't knock down walls with real engines. Hence the popularity of a method called the siege, which basically consisted of sitting outside with about a 3:1 margin and waiting for the defenders to starve. Also the popularity of another method called storming the place, which typically required a minimum of 10:1 odds and that the defenders have inadequate numbers. Just what are Ansom's odds again and how strong are the TOOL's forces?

In the real world of course the most popular methods are to convince the defenders to surrender or find someone inside willing to open a gate at night for lots of money and other valuable considerations (we'll let you and your family live). But most turn based strategy games aren't big on these tried and true methods.

The purpose of real siege engines in actual warfare was ALWAYS to support an assualt by giving the guys standing on top of the wall one more thing to worry about. Not to knock down walls because they couldn't do it. You assault everywhere at once (including suicidal tunnels and escalades) because you can't get in anywhere that is adequately defended. The only hope is to force the defender to try to spread out to where something isn't adequately defended. With 25 to 1 odds and an entire rather long city wall + pre-existing tunnels to assault Ansom's plan is perfectly practical. Yours results in sitting outside the city watching the defenders LAUGH at your engines while your troops starve and die of various camp deseases (you will starve first, 25:1 against a city's defenders means there are more of you than can actually be fed by the surrounding countryside).

Just to add to the fun Ansom is dragging his engines along, which means they are LIGHT engines. Heavy stuff was effectively always constructed on site out of local timber + premade parts shipped in. Which as others have pointed out means any engines on the wall WILL outrange him, and if using anything vaguely historical means that his engines probably won't wreck the defending engines even on a direct hits while the converse isn't true. Portable seige engine basically means a light ballista or something similar, basically a really heavy crossbow that you use to shoot at people, including people under light cover. No use at all against heavy stone walls.

It all depends on the rules of this game, but real world, strategies like Ansom's worked well enough, while sitting outside and waiting for siege engines to make multiple practical breaches in the walls NEVER worked prior to cannons and rarely even with cannons.

[foil_fedora]

The purpose of real siege engines in actual warfare was ALWAYS to support an assualt by giving the guys standing on top of the wall one more thing to worry about. Not to knock down walls because they couldn't do it.

Well, you can do it with a light catapult, but only if your ammo is... explodamancers.

I kill me... and if I don't my audience will.

[LTDave]

Any sort of siege that has flying units (dwagons, etc) is not going to obey conventional rules.

If the TOOL lines the walls with me, the sugar-chick gwiffons will just land behind them. If the TOOL keeps his troops throughout the City, the Eager Elves (woo! yeah!) will push through simple as anything.

I think Parson will favour a withdrawal into the inner keep (if for no other reason than narrative purposes) and let the Alliance loot the city (cause arguments and disorder).

Also, Parson isn't really in charge. I'm pretty sure that the TOOL will interfere fairly regularly and muck things around. And fi parson disobeys a direct order, he will cease to exist.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If one cannot batter down their walls, one can lob burning pitch into the castle and burn it from the inside. Sure, stone doesn't burn... but thatched roofs, houses, barns, sheds, and any other structure made of wood most certainly would. And again, catapults can do this without getting into bow range. Not even the English Yew Longbows shooting Grey Goose shafts.

Even better, Trebuchets, which *CAN* batter a wall down with rocks weighing up to a ton (I've actually lobbed a buic into a lake using a real trebuchet once...). That much weight comming at that much speed most certainly will knock big gaps in walls.

[Cyclone231]

To awnser that question you just have to play the zelda games and remember that link is an elf.

Link is NOT an elf.

He's a Hylian.

They're much closer to a variant human race, than elves. And even then, the only unique trait they have is the ears.

But, he does look like an elf, so I will give you a break and not bite your head off.

[Drascin]

But you oversee the fact that "yes" and "no" are about the only things he can say.

Actually, he usually just nods or shakes his head. The only vocal things to come out of Link's mouth during games are usually his battlecries as he attacks and rends enemies to pieces . He doesn't even get a sound FX that means "he's talking, really!" as a lot of NPCs get :P.

Aaaaanyway, on topic: yeah, the strategy Ansom's following has a few holes, but let's be honest: if Parson was not there, it would have a pretty good chance of succeding. No commander of Gobwin Knob before would have even guessed the marbit thing was a feint, and really, given the nature of strategy games, where usually the best way to pass a defensive post is to pour in and hit from the inside, trying to find a crack desperately is logical. Of course, since it is logical, it is expected for Parson -and therefore Ansom is going to have some pretty big problems he doesn't expect .

[Doug Lampert]

If one cannot batter down their walls, one can lob burning pitch into the castle and burn it from the inside. Sure, stone doesn't burn... but thatched roofs, houses, barns, sheds, and any other structure made of wood most certainly would. And again, catapults can do this without getting into bow range. Not even the English Yew Longbows shooting Grey Goose shafts.

Even better, Trebuchets, which *CAN* batter a wall down with rocks weighing up to a ton (I've actually lobbed a buic into a lake using a real trebuchet once...). That much weight comming at that much speed most certainly will knock big gaps in walls.

Trebuchets are non-mobile, so they're not what is being draged along. And I know of ZERO (that's 0.000) cases of a defended stone wall having a practical breach knocked in it by Trebuchet bombardment historically.

You could damage the works, which is important, but 15+' thick stone walls can bounce a LOT of 1 ton rocks without falling down and the people inside can reinforce faster than you're doing damage.

Do you have an actual example of this working, ever? Even one case of a reasonably solid wall falling to trebuchet bombardment historically and the city falling when people walked in through one of the breaches.

Or for that matter of a defended city being deliberately fired by throwing in incendiaries from outside pre-gunpowder? Cities burned in sacks all the time, but burning PRIOR to a breach without big powder magazines inside somewhere exploding? I can't think of a single case of either outside of fiction, and I've read a fair number of military histories and original source documents about ancient and medieval warfare.

DougL

[Erk]

Doug, you are absolutely right in regards to real siege warfare, but it's kind of a nonsequitor in this case. This isn't real warfare on Earth. Not only are there totally different units, but the physics don't match either.

However, yes, it is very funny how people assume castle walls were just kinda decorative because that is how they are in strategy games. Hell, in Stronghold you can bash them down with a sword... pretty damn quickly, too.