Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down

[No brains]

Does the magazine give any justification as to why the creature breaks the standard rules? One way I could imagine it is if a creature had no senses and was externally controlled by orders relayed from a master that did have senses. From what I can guess of the name, dream elements weasel past the rules by not actually existing as something separate from the dreamer.

Now I want to make a Ghost Brute Dream Element Shrieker.

[nedz]

And the bit about "you can't cast a spell unless you have the minimum caster level required" is problematic, since it's nowhere stated what the minimum caster level for any spell is, and any argument for what it is turns out to be circular.

It's normally defined in the class

Cleric
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Druid
To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a druid’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the druid’s Wisdom modifier.

and so on ...
Unless you know of a base class for which this isn't defined ?

[Flickerdart]

It's normally defined in the class


and so on ...
Unless you know of a base class for which this isn't defined ?

None of those quotes say anything about CL.

[Ksheep]

I knew there was something up with what you said, but could only just figure it out: control weather makes hail storms in summer. So either hell is safe or D&D needs to check its meteorology.

Hail oftentimes occurs during summer months. All it needs to form is a thunderstorm, preferably with strong updrafts, and in the Central US states, these storms typically occur in the summer months.

In North America, hail is most common in the area where Colorado, Nebraska, and Wyoming meet, known as "Hail Alley". Hail in this region occurs between the months of March and October during the afternoon and evening hours, with the bulk of the occurrences from May through September.

[georgie_leech]

It's normally defined in the class


and so on ...
Unless you know of a base class for which this isn't defined ?

Trouble is, those don't actually define what the minimum caster level is. Some language like "To cast a spell of a given level requires a caster level of 1 less than twice the spell level" or something might, but as is it doesn't mention Caster level at all.

[Andezzar]

This defines the minimum ability score, it does not define the minimum caster level.

You need a spell slot and a spell to cast a spell. Prepared casters normally get a spell slot of a higher level every odd level in a spellcasting class, and have a caster level equal to their level in a spellcasting class. Now the Archmage and several other PrCs do not advance the caster level but give new spell slots and known spells. So single class wizard would need CL 17 to cast 9th level spells but a Wizard 15/Archmage 2 would still be able to prepare and cast 9th level spells despite having a CL of 15 (without Spell Power).

[Necroticplague]

Trouble is, those don't actually define what the minimum caster level is. Some language like "To cast a spell of a given level requires a caster level of 1 less than twice the spell level" or something might, but as is it doesn't mention Caster level at all.

If you did define it like that, you would run into problems with accelerated progression casting, like ur-priest, or any spell that appears on multiple lists at different levels (like sand shaper giving buffs at lower levels).

[georgie_leech]

If you did define it like that, you would run into problems with accelerated progression casting, like ur-priest, or any spell that appears on multiple lists at different levels (like sand shaper giving buffs at lower levels).

Nah, it would be class specific. It's odd that it doesn't seem to actually be defined anywhere.

[amalcon]

Odd one I noticed the other day: Apparently, a level 20 Spirit Shaman is unable to avoid being hit by his or her own Chastise Spirits ability.

[TypoNinja]

Nah, it would be class specific. It's odd that it doesn't seem to actually be defined anywhere.

It is, its buried in preparation. There's a bit about how if you have the same spell from more than one source you choose which version on prepatarion. So a Paladin 2 Cleric 3 spell has different minimums depending on which class you chose to prepare it as.

[Flickerdart]

It is, its buried in preparation. There's a bit about how if you have the same spell from more than one source you choose which version on prepatarion. So a Paladin 2 Cleric 3 spell has different minimums depending on which class you chose to prepare it as.

That's not actually saying anything about minimum caster levels, though.

[nedz]

Oops, seems I grabbed the wrong end of the stick. However, TypoNinja has it.
From here or here:

Spell Slots

The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. ...

Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. ...

It's an implicit definition pointing you at the class tables.

[HeyThereImBear]

The demon-lord template's Unique ability.

(also can be found on the fallen template)

Because you wanna know what you can do with a unique ability?

Anything.

[Flickerdart]

That still has nothing to do with caster level. The contention is not how many spells of each level a character of a certain level can cast per day. The contention is that the minimum caster level necessary to cast a spell (in situations where a character's CL is lower than his level in a spellcasting class) is not actually defined anywhere in non-circular logic.

[georgie_leech]

That still has nothing to do with caster level. The contention is not how many spells of each level a character of a certain level can cast per day. The contention is that the minimum caster level necessary to cast a spell (in situations where a character's CL is lower than his level in a spellcasting class) is not actually defined anywhere in non-circular logic.

In other words, it's one of those dysfunctions that cropped up because the designers all assumed it worked a certain way, and that that particular way was written down somewhere, even if they couldn't remember where.

[TypoNinja]

In other words, it's one of those dysfunctions that cropped up because the designers all assumed it worked a certain way, and that that particular way was written down somewhere, even if they couldn't remember where.

Sort of. It kind of requires an especially hostile reading, its a case of "it never said so you are screwed"

The SRD has this to say about caster level.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Since no minimum spell level is ever defined in the spell text, I contend that this requires you to refer to each individual class, for what level they gain a spell at, as minimum caster level would be established by that, rather than a universal rule, since many spells come at different levels for different classes.

The counter thought is that since there is no "Minimum Caster Level" definition or entry its a dysfunction by omission.

This to me seems silly, as by the same logic I could say that your base reflex save never specified what days of the week it worked on, so reflex saves are dysfunctional. There is a line between a strict reading and deliberately being obtuse that I think gets crossed in this case.

Alas, the only place I can find Minimum Caster Level discussed at all is in magic item creation rules, and that's just talking about using the spell if no level is specified.

[Necroticplague]

The counter thought is that since there is no "Minimum Caster Level" definition or entry its a dysfunction by omission.

This to me seems silly, as by the same logic I could say that your base reflex save never specified what days of the week it worked on, so reflex saves are dysfunctional. There is a line between a strict reading and deliberately being obtuse that I think gets crossed in this case.

Except the difference is that their is never in the rules even implied that such a thing as day-save relation does exist, while the rule about 'Minimum Caster Level'is referenced, despite its non-existence. So no, this is not being overly obtuse. While your statement about looking at the charts is reasonable and likely intentional, it is not stated anywhere.

[Flickerdart]

This to me seems silly, as by the same logic I could say that your base reflex save never specified what days of the week it worked on, so reflex saves are dysfunctional.

That's not the same reading at all. There would have to be a rule that read "you can only use Reflex saves on days of the week that Reflex saves are usable by you." It implies that there are days on which they are not usable, but offers absolutely no guidance as to what those days would be.

[Andezzar]

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

This only says that lowering the caster level for a spell below your normal caster level may make it impossible to cast the spell. The rule does not say that you generally need to have a minimum caster level to cast a spell.

So without additional rules (which no one has found yet) a Wizard 15/Archmage 2 could cast 9th level spells, but could not lower the CL further, because for him the normal caster level is 15. A wizard 17 could not go lower than CL 17 on those spells. It is not quite clear, what happens if the Wiz15/Archm2 takes the Spell Power High Arcana. I'd say he cannot reduce the CL of 9th level spells below 17.

It boils down to the question what "normal" means. It is defined nowhere and adds ambiguity not only to this rule.

[Necroticplague]

This only says that lowering the caster level for a spell below your normal caster level may make it impossible to cast the spell. The rule does not say that you generally need to have a minimum caster level to cast a spell.

So without additional rules (which no one has found yet) a Wizard 15/Archmage 2 could cast 9th level spells, but could not lower the CL further, because for him the normal caster level is 15. A wizard 17 could not go lower than CL 17 on those spells. It is not quite clear, what happens if the Wiz15/Archm2 takes the Spell Power High Arcana. I'd say he cannot reduce the CL of 9th level spells below 17.

It boils down to the question what "normal" means. It is defined nowhere and adds ambiguity not only to this rule.

The fact the section refers to "you" doesn't help matters. Is it the specific "you" as in, what that character can do? Some could grab 9th level spells at level1. Or is it a general "you" meaning "spellcasters in general", in which case various abilities allowing you to cast stuff early interacts weirdly without a definite limit to the CL.

[Vedhin]

Now I want to make a Ghost Brute Dream Element Shrieker.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work. A Crypt Spawn Dream Element Shrieker works though.
You end up with an inert, incorporeal thing that deals Wisdom damage to anything dumb enough to touch it. It doesn't shriek because it cannot perceive things.

[Inevitability]

When a rock with contact poison is more powerful than the creature that has 2 templates tacked on it, you know you did something wrong.

[Story]

When a rock with contact poison is more powerful than the creature that has 2 templates tacked on it, you know you did something wrong.

Then again, it's easier to become immune to poison than ability damage.

[Inevitability]

True, but the rock has more versatility. On monday, the day stupid fighters try to take on your lair, you put dragon bile on it and watch how the fighters are reduced to piles of immobilized flesh in their heavy armor.
On tuesday, however, you can decide to do something crazy and put instead some Black Lotus Extract on it.

Don't you see it? The inert Shrieker may have more raw power, but the rock has something the Shrieker will never have. VERSATILITY.

Also, the rock will probably be lighter than the Shrieker, allowing it to be used as a improvised thrown weapon should the need arise.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Also, the rock will probably be lighter than the Shrieker, allowing it to be used as a improvised thrown weapon should the need arise.

throw a rock covered in ...contact... poison. So you are contacting your rock covered in contact poison before getting any use out of it.

[nedz]

throw a rock covered in ...contact... poison. So you are contacting your rock covered in contact poison before getting any use out of it.

I believe that gloves are traditional accessories to Contact Poison.

[No brains]

Unfortunately, this doesn't work. A Crypt Spawn Dream Element Shrieker works though.
You end up with an inert, incorporeal thing that deals Wisdom damage to anything dumb enough to touch it. It doesn't shriek because it cannot perceive things.

I accept this as appropriate reparations for your wrongful tackle.

Does anyone have a link to the actual info on the dream element template? I can't seem to find it.

Oh and I guess this creature can be an honorary dysfunction, even though template piling usually makes really bizarre crap on its own. This creature is a creature despite breaking every rule for being a creature.

Edit: While this should be a common-sense issue (see everything else in this thread) the shrieker's shriek makes no mention of the creature actually perceiving the trigger. This could allow shriekers to scream at incorporeal and ethereal creatures. Also, there is no listen DC for the shriek, so there's no indication of how loud the creature is supposed to be. I guess you could call it a 'battle' for a DC of -10.

P.S. I meant the one template named "Ghost Brute" As seen here. It's supposed to work on plants with CHA<8, but does the dream element template wreck the 'reqs?

[bekeleven]

I believe that gloves are traditional accessories to Contact Poison.

I prefer living construct subtype, but to each his own.

[XionUnborn01]

It's perfectly straightforward: you can only cast the spells that you can cast, and can't cast any other spells.

This might be the most straightforward explanation I've ever heard. You should work for WOTC, Flickerdart, because you would clear up so many problems.

[deuxhero]

No matter how many ranks in Knowledge: Religion you have, you don't know anything about angels, demons or the place you go when you die, as that's all covered by Knowledge: Planes.

Gets even odder if you are in a setting where gods have stats instead of being "you lose", as they are outsiders.