Dethy Tournament--Heat Three in progress!--Still Recruiting!

[Saposhiente]

Actually, although the mafioso has a lower winrate than town, if Town wins each player has only a 1/4 chance of being selected MVP, so as long as the Mafioso doesn't screw up his opening claim he has the highest individual chance of going on to the finals.

[Zjoot]

Ok, so as far as I can tell it's looking to be Penguinator for the win, but you can continue to discuss at your leisure. The question now is who do we have to fill the fourth spot in round 4? I'll ask in WW Central first, to make it more fair to the players who have been waiting for heat four. (Otherwise, everyone else gets two extra chances to play, and they only get one) If I can't find anybody soon, then I'll go ahead and open it up to players from previous rounds.

[Murska]

I can join, I suppose. Never tried this before.

[Internet Flea]

Is this still recruiting? I'll play, if only to throw a wrench into the town analysis machine.

[Penguinator]

Is this still recruiting? I'll play, if only to throw a wrench into the town analysis machine.

Internet Flea! It's been so long!

[Zjoot]

Is this still recruiting? I'll play, if only to throw a wrench into the town analysis machine.

Hey, you're here! Rad. Yeah there's still five slots open at the moment. I'm right now sending out roles to the players in heat four, Murska, Tanar Aerdoth, The Fiery Tower, Chessgeek and Askthepizzaguy, and that will start on Monday if everyone's posted ready to play.

After that, Heat 5 will be Internet Flea and anyone else who signs up, plus people from previous heats who want another shot.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Aw, I got my role, I can't start playing now?

[Murska]

Ayup, I'm here.

[Visor]

Haven't played Dethy in a while. Shouldn't take too much of my time, I'll play in the next round.

[TFT]

Here, would like to wait til sunday or monday to start. Drove 6-8 miles today and have a sister's graduation stuffs tomorrow.

[Tris]

I'm here, and exited to start.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just need Chessgeek and we're ready to go.

Come on Chessgeek, buddy ol' pal, I'd love to get the game started sometime when it's not in the middle of my two 11-hour shifts the next two days.

[Chessgeek]

I'm here. And apparently the only person in my time zone in this game.

[Penguinator]

I'm here, and exited to start.

Where were you?

[TFT]

Here, would like to wait til sunday or monday to start. Drove 6-8 miles today and have a sister's graduation stuffs tomorrow.

I'm surprised no one called me out on this.

Hours.

I drove 6-8 hours.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm surprised no one called me out on this.

Hours.

I drove 6-8 hours.

Everyone here knows you drive like a grandpa, so we thought nothing of it.

[Zack]

If you're still recruiting, I'll join.

[Zjoot]

Alright, that's Zack, Visor, and Internet Flea signed up for heat five.

And....

Day One of Heat Four begins now and will end in either 72 hours, or when one player recieves 3 votes. Good luck and Have Fun everybody!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oznsdjrgwokaxzfiu

sheuxdeudenyedlqzxgrujffjkoyt


That is my name, role, and claimed result.

It is encoded in a manner which I will reveal later, which can ONLY result one outcome (provable).

If I am a wolf, I left myself absolutely zero recourse. I must now expose this claim later on, and it has to be the winning claim, if I am a wolf.

Basically, I just cut off my own gonads. Factor that in when you start guessing who made a mistake, and when.

Now, everyone else, proceed with your thing. Claim a name you scried, then a result, etc, like we were doing.

[Murska]

Oh dear. I've got the flu, and I'm about to go to sleep pretty much as soon as I can make myself try it. It'll take me a while to get back, so...

I've got a result on Chessgeek.

[Tris]

Nice idea.

I got a result on Murska.

[Saposhiente]

Oznsdjrgwokaxzfiu

sheuxdeudenyedlqzxgrujffjkoyt

I'm sorry Pizzaguy, this is an English-only forum so this is technically against the rules

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm sorry Pizzaguy, this is an English-only forum so this is technically against the rules

That, of course, is English, so I'm quite all right.

[Saposhiente]

Actually it specifically mentions encrypted text

Typing Incoherently/Foreign Languages
This is an English-speaking forum. With the exception of text-only translations of the comic or other specifically authorized exceptions, please use English only on this forum. While an occasional word or phrase is acceptable, entire posts, conversations, or threads in languages other than English will be scrubbed or closed.

A forum is a written medium and people have to read what you write. Chat speak, l33t speak, encrypted/enciphered text, and anything that has to be "translated" falls into this area. You may have something incredible to say, but it won't be read if you use "m8" and "pwn3d" as every other word in a post. The occasional typo or confusion regarding spelling is understood and expected, but at least take a moment to read over a message before you post it.

[Internet Flea]

Actually it specifically mentions encrypted text

It would be hilarious if this thread got scrubbed for that.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So here we go.

Spoiler: Rules, rules, rules

Show

I checked the rules of the game.... it's not against the rules of the game, nor is it against the rules posted on the WW information thread.

So, we'll cover the forum rule.

The forum rule doesn't apply to that post either:

While an occasional word or phrase is acceptable, entire posts, conversations, or threads in languages other than English will be scrubbed or closed.

It wasn't an entire post, conversation, or thread, and was simply an encoded phrase, the rule actually makes a specific exception for a post just like mine. Which means I'm still technically on solid ground, since we're getting technical.

However, in addition to this, I have been asked by a spectator to not use the tactic.

While I wish to state for the record that everything I just did is within the game, section, and website rules, I'll still bend, to be a sport.

I'll not provide an encryption key for my post and will instead claim last.

I still intend to deny my result to the mafia, so they'll have to claim first regardless. Unless we get to a point where we develop rules about when I should claim or if I even need to, I'm sure that's well within the boundaries of play.

Now we'll discuss the premise of the game, and acceptable forms of gameplay, which is a different subject:

Spoiler: Theory is a whole other ballpark

Show

The point of order being objected to is that my method denies information to the mafia.

Yes, I know. In every game I play, I deny information to the mafia or deliberately misinform them. This one is no different in that regard.

Telling the mafia the truth gives them power. Why is that forced for village? It's not.

The mafia isn't entitled to any information. Whoever goes first in any system we come up with doesn't have any information yet and still must commit to a guess. Forcing them to make a guess is strategically proper for village.

The fact that I wanted to go first and therefore bind my hands means that I locked myself in on both a target and a result without any data. This is meant to establish my villageriness. Or maybe, I just like taking huge risks because that's how I roll as a mafioso.

I would in fact prefer to not use this progressive reveal system at all. Villagers should want to go first and therefore establish that they came up with the "correct" data without any help from the other players. People who aren't online at the time or wish to delay their reveal, well, we can discuss if they wanted to delay their reveal for villager reasons, mafia reasons, or no reasons at all, it just so happened they went last. Or just accept that some players will end up being later to the party than others. All are acceptable to me.

But we've committed to a system which denies information to the mafia, in order to trap them, in all the previous games so far.

My idea is the same, but expressed to its fullest potential. If my idea is wrong, then it was always wrong and never should have been done, even halfway. I don't agree with that either.

The game is asymmetrical, and the mafia is required to make a blind guess in order to fit in with the others, or attempt to guess after other people have guessed, so they stand a better chance of guessing right. I didn't invent that conundrum, I simply play to take advantage of it. That's Dethy- the mafia can be caught by a poor fake scry regardless of how we obtain it.

Now, we're attempting to obtain it piecemeal, with Tom the Mime's system, but we're still attempting to force the mafia to commit to an action with incomplete data. Once we do that, we're saying this is a legitimate tactic.

If we're going to later suggest we can't do that, I just ask that we be consistent, since I might have made it harder on the mafia if I'm not mafia, but I also made it harder on the mafia if I'm mafia. Which is why what I did was fair.

I could have just taken a stone cold guess and encrypted it for show, to establish my villageriness, and for all anyone knows, that's exactly what I did.

Remove the encryption aspect, and I could have simply just claimed the entire result first, to lock myself in. But we're concerned about denying information to the mafia, remember?

Am I allowed to do that, or not? We can't have it both ways.

If I'm allowed to deny information to the mafia, I'll either lie about my results, or go on strike and not reveal my results until everyone else does, or I'll go last deliberately and let the chips fall where they may. Villagers who are allowed to deny information to the mafia absolutely should.

If that's not allowable, then we're playing a totally different game, and my goals are the inverse: If I'm not allowed to deny info to the mafia, then I want to reveal first and establish my results weren't aided by the other players, because that's the most villagery thing to do, but it allows the mafia to gain info about my scry. But in this universe, I'm supposed to tell them the information they need to play fairly, I guess. That changes my entire understanding of the strategy involved.

To suggest this half-measure Tom came up with is the only acceptable way to play is to dance on the edge of the line. We're being fair on the mafia by forcing them to commit to a result blindly, but we're being fair on the mafia because half a result only ends their game half of the time.

There's nothing wrong with Tom's method but it clearly isn't the only acceptable way to play. And it's not inherently more fair on the mafia either. It simply splits the baby in half and says we can deny half of the info to the mafia, which is only half as devastating, but as we've seen so far, somehow still completely devastating.

Ergo, if I'm playing under withhold info from the mafia rules, I'll go full bear about it.

If I'm not, you gotta let me know before I start strategizing.



By the way, I think the debate is healthy, and I'm not offended by the suggestion that maybe we shouldn't do it. I just think we shouldn't compel me to play by unwritten rules, or not accept the fact that Tom the Mime's compromise is still a conceit, we're fooling ourselves if we think we're making it fairer on the mafia by doing that method. It removes half the risk, but keeps half the risk intact, and the mafia still lose because of that half of the risk, and have consistently done so so far.

Information denial is an unavoidable part of the game, and if I'm allowed to use it, then I should be allowed to use it. If I'm not, then Tom's method isn't allowable either, and it hasn't been a problem for anyone but the mafia so far, so I'm under the impression we've agreed to allow that kind of conscious information denial.

If you get me going on theory I'll talk your ear off, fair warning.

I'm welcome to having more of a debate on this matter, but for now, I'll do this.

I won't decrypt my thing, but I also won't claim until everyone else has claimed. That will make it fair on me because I chose a strategy that was allowable, and has been, before I was told that it wasn't. Now I'm changing my strategy to fit the new premise.

[Internet Flea]

((I hope the spectator is someone besides Sapo and me, as we're both just joking; there have been multiple games in which encryption was a game mechanic, and it is in fact one of Sapo's go-to strategies.

Besides, the rules say nothing about actual gibberish, which that very well may be. ))

[Saposhiente]

It's not just about denying info to the Mafia; it's also about not having to use encryption every game, because it is and has been clearly better than not using it. People would rather not have that hassle.
I wouldn't call it a go-to strategy, but I have been known to use it on occasion. I do consider it to be violating the spirit of any No PM rule, however. Set up RSA and you can have effectively private messages.

[Tom the Mime]

A quote from the narrator.

Also, a question was sent to me about measures to prevent the mafia from getting information, and their legality within the rules. I'm going to go ahead and say that I personally find it to be a bit against the spirit of the game to try to prevent mafia from making their claim. It's their one big strategic move, and I think they should be allowed to win or lose based on how well they play their false claim, and not because they were denied the chance to make it completely. A few limitations to play around are fine; Tom's method works nicely by giving the mafia room to strategize without giving them full control of what they say. I'm just going to say consider the spirit of the game and try to win through deduction and analysis if you can, but I'm not going to outright ban anything.

Encryption isn't against the rules but it is against the spirit. It basically removes any possible strategising for mafia, making the game no fun for them. It can result in more common identical scry claims which tends to trivialise those games and making them not much fun for anyone. If encryption became commonplace for this and continued to be allowed, I feel you'd have to give the mafia more information at the start to keep the game interesting.

[Chessgeek]

I scried TFT.