El Goonish Shive II - I stand by my ridiculous comic

[Luzahn]

Well, my only suspicion would involve the fact that, whatever Tedd's situation is magically, it seems too unique to just give him a mark. Besides, Pandora's ambiguity regarding who she's actually talking about leads me to believe that the obvious, marking Tedd, isn't quite accurate.

[Geordnet]

To clarify my earlier point, I was thinking more in meta-logical terms. In fact, most of my reasoning here is actually meta logic - but that doesn't mean that there's no in-universe reason to believe that Sarah has the mark (as opposed to Tedd).

Both Sarah and Tedd fulfill the (presumed) personality requirements necessary to bear this mark: Tedd with gender fluidity, and Sarah with whatever residual emotions would have let Jerry put a similar mark on her (if they can change fast one way, they can change back as well). However, while there is no reasonable doubt that Sarah has the "physical" capacity to bear a magic mark, we know there is something up with Tedd that might preclude him from doing so. Therefore, what little evidence we have points to Sarah as a (slightly) more likely canidate.

[Lizard Lord]

Well, my only suspicion would involve the fact that, whatever Tedd's situation is magically, it seems too unique to just give him a mark. Besides, Pandora's ambiguity regarding who she's actually talking about leads me to believe that the obvious, marking Tedd, isn't quite accurate.

Panadora's alleged vagueness is perfectly natural. It would be forcing it for her to mention who she marked when the only person she is talking to is herself.

And why is Tedd's situation too unique to give him a mark but it is okay for him to use watches that do the same thing?

[Luzahn]

From what we've seen, the narrative purpose of the marks could be to make otherwise ordinary character special; they're certainly more difficult to obtain than the watches, which Tedd can just build and don't appear to have as much power as a mark. If that's the case, it might not make sense to stack a second unique feature onto Tedd while others could receive it.

[Lissou]

More people have marks than watches right now. I wouldn't say the marks are harder to obtain :P There are many immortals (at least 4 we know, probably more) and only one Tedd.

[Geordnet]

More people have marks than watches right now. I wouldn't say the marks are harder to obtain :P There are many immortals (at least 4 we know, probably more) and only one Tedd.

Tedd's made way more than 4 watches, and the watches are far more flexible than marks.


Just to clear things up: we have at least 6 marks now - probably more. One each on Justin, Rhoda, and that really creepy guy. The "Transgender" mark Pandora just recently bestowed. One on Luke, and at least one in the group he is "talent scouting" for (presumably more, due to his contact's use of plural pronouns).

[Lissou]

Tedd's made way more than 4 watches, and the watches are far more flexible than marks.


Just to clear things up: we have at least 6 marks now - probably more. One each on Justin, Rhoda, and that really creepy guy. The "Transgender" mark Pandora just recently bestowed. One on Luke, and at least one in the group he is "talent scouting" for (presumably more, due to his contact's use of plural pronouns).

Ah, but I did not say "more immortals than watches" or even "more marks than watches". I said more people had marks than watches. Tedd isn't sharing them with the entire world, while pretty much everyone in Moperville can be marked. So while watches can be made assembly-line and be more versatile, they're still not going to be as "accessible" as marks, so I think they're still rarer.

This being said that doesn't matter at all as far as Tedd getting a mark is concerned, as he's the person with the most access to (and design control over) the watches.

I think Tedd has the mark, but I'm open to it being on someone else too.

[The Mormegil]

I think Tedd being marked is the most likely. It makes perfect sense, and I don't see a reason Dan wouldn't want that. However, I can also see Shive pulling a fast one and marking Sarah instead - not for the dream image (albeit it would be the sort of subtle hinting that he likes) - but rather for Sarah's subconscious thoughts of "not being entirely straight anymore" and apparently for the fact that she spent quite some time as a young male. Which still baffles me, but I guess in a similar situation I would be too curious to pass up too.

EDIT: I can also see Sam being marked. Sarah still has the issue of being "the only mundane one", which would be lessened by marks somewhat. Sam has obvious reasons for wanting the mark and Pandora would still be "doing something nice" she didn't plan for. Also Sam has way more reasons for subconsciously using his magic on Tedd than Sarah does - Sarah's usage would most likely be just chance.

[Geordnet]

(albeit [the dream image] would be the sort of subtle hinting that [the author] likes)

Yeah, that's what I meant when I brought it up.


If you asked me to put odds on who has the mark, I'd break it down like this:

Sarah:	40% 30%
Tedd:	25% 20%
Sam:	10% 15%
Rich:	10% 15%
Larry:	10% 15%
Other:	5%

EDIT: It's been a few days, and my opinion has swayed slightly. I've updated the table to reflect my current guesses.

[Qwertystop]

Really? Bumping Larry and Rich up after today's?

(also - blech, today's. Any small chance of the S.S. Larah sailing is gone - hooray)

[Randomguy]

Why are we ruling out Grace again?

[Luzahn]

If Sarah's suddenly a lesbian after yesterday's page, I'll be very suspicious of Larry. (But really, go Sarah. Knock this guy down a peg.)

Regarding Grace, I'm wondering whether her alien heritage prevents marks. From how the Uryuom powers have been explained in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't play nice with magic.

[Lissou]

We do know that if she gets hit by the TF gun, she won't revert automatically, and she absorbs the form and can later turn into it.

That does mean she can already turn into a male, or anything else, really. Although I guess if she's the one marked, she can change other people's sex, not hers.
Considering she's Tedd's girlfriend, Pandora has at least more reason to do something nice to her, unlike pretty much anyone else in the shop (except Tedd). And if she can't mark Tedd, Grace would be a logical second choice.

I don't think it's Grace, though.

[Geordnet]

Really? Bumping Larry and Rich up after today's?

No, after yesterday's. I'm back closer to my original predictions today.

Why are we ruling out Grace again?

Because Uryom magic works different. (Although I suppose she's in that 5% "other" category, with lower odds than Greg or Tensaided.)

[Luzahn]

Also, I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, but giving Tedd a genderswap mark wouldn't serve much purpose; he already has free access to a bunch of tech that has the same function.

[Forum Explorer]

Of the four magic marks we know of, only one can be easily linked to the marked's personality (Dex being lonely -> getting a fairy summon). The other three do not correlate very well at all (which is to say there is no discernable pattern in their relationships). So statistically speaking, personality is worthless for predicting what marks may be valid.

Well, not entirely. Whatever Justin got has made him more combat capable, and we know he's had issues with having to stay behind because he can't fight.

Meanwhile we have Tedd. Tedd likes turning into a girl and recently came to the realization that he is gender fluid. Those who say that Tedd has zero magic energy are remembering incorrectly (even if we ignore all the forshadowing that indicates this may not be entirely true). Tedd has some magic energy. Enough to use magic watches and likely wands. Tedd has said that normal people aren't much better off than he is. Sarah, a person with the magic levels of a perfectly average person could have gotten a magic mark. Magic marks, like the magic watches, are only able to grant one spell (unless you pour more than the normal magic energy levels in it). Therefore it stands to reason that if Tedd can use the watches he can use a mark. It is possible he could only do so within Moperville (like with the watches) due to the residual magic energy, but I still see no reason he shouldn't be able to use them at all.

Here's a reason against it, Tedd's Dad is a VIP in the supernatural world. Tedd not having magic was a really big deal with his mother. Raven feels guilty because this drove a rift between Tedd's mom and dad. Tedd also seems to be pretty interested in magic, and has a goal of everyone having it. Do you really think that they couldn't/wouldn't have just asked an immortal to give him a mark, any mark, before now if it was possible?

[Lizard Lord]

Well, not entirely. Whatever Justin got has made him more combat capable, and we know he's had issues with having to stay behind because he can't fight.



Here's a reason against it, Tedd's Dad is a VIP in the supernatural world. Tedd not having magic was a really big deal with his mother. Raven feels guilty because this drove a rift between Tedd's mom and dad. Tedd also seems to be pretty interested in magic, and has a goal of everyone having it. Do you really think that they couldn't/wouldn't have just asked an immortal to give him a mark, any mark, before now if it was possible?

Except it doesn't work like that. If it did Sarah would have already had a mark. They need to have a strong desire. Tedd's desire to be able to change his gender has never been stronger than this moment.

[Forum Explorer]

Except it doesn't work like that. If it did Sarah would have already had a mark. They need to have a strong desire. Tedd's desire to be able to change his gender has never been stronger than this moment.

Not necessarily, it can also just reflect a part of their personality (like with Rhonda and things growing bigger). Also desires change over time, just because he has a strong desire now doesn't mean he's never had a similarly strong desire before. And if that was all it took, do you really think that Verres/Raven/his mom wouldn't know that, and wouldn't have the opportunity to get Tedd a mark at a different point in time?

[Lissou]

It's possible they dislike marks. Or it's possible they drifted apart because Tedd's mom wanted to mark them and Tedd's dad refused to have that happen to his young child. And the mom was all "then I don't want this child who has no magic potential" and left.

Maybe Raven feels responsible for the drift because without him, Tedd's mom wouldn't have had the idea about marks in the first place.

So I don't think your argument is failproof although of course the only way to know is wait.

[Pie Guy]

Can I just say that I'm a little disappointed in the way the comic is treating Larry right now? I mean, as a fellow luckless guy (I'm shy and don't really hit on people, so that might have something to do with it), I sympathize with him when he says that it would be awesome if more women hit on him, damn near regardless of the situation, so he doesn't really understand that it isn't the same for women. I just feel like Dan's taking the easy way out of a slightly more complicated issue than it seems, and all he had to do was not make Larry an asshat.

Edit: also, a guy hitting on a straight man is not a completely analogous situation, because one of the parties is by definition uninterested instead of only probably uninterested. (Also, honestly? I personally would be flattered, but I probably wouldn't even pick up on it during the conversation unless the guy was exceptionally direct.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can I just say that I'm a little disappointed in the way the comic is treating Larry right now? I mean, as a fellow luckless guy (I'm shy and don't really hit on people, so that might have something to do with it), I sympathize with him when he says that it would be awesome if more women hit on him, damn near regardless of the situation, so he doesn't really understand that it isn't the same for women. I just feel like Dan's taking the easy way out of a slightly more complicated issue than it seems, and all he had to do was not make Larry an asshat.

Unless you are also a fellow guy that assumes geek girls are posers, and that girls that are uninterested in your advances must be lesbian (and yes, such people exist, and can be quite vocal about such assumptions), you are not the "type" Larry is stereotyping. His reaction "I'd love to be hit upon even if I'm not in the mood" was fine, and if you have the same reaction, nothing bad is said about your actions. His reaction "You are not interested in being hit by me, therefore lesbian" was not fine, and that is something Dan is indeed criticising (fairly, IMnpHO). His rejection of basic etiquette for the situation is not fine, and again Dan is in his right to criticise it.

I should add, I have met people that have made the same two faux-pas, although not at the same time (i.e. I know males that will call a girl a lesbian - despectively - when she is not interested, and I have seen people who take a card game competitions to be a place for finding dates). I can see both groups overlapping, though, and in a narrative, it is fine to combine both types into a single individual for the purposes of cutting down the number of characters.

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

despectively

Eh? I don't know that word.

[Lissou]

"Despectively" means "in a derogatory manner". As far as I know, it's not an extremely common word.

I understand where you're coming from about Larry, Pie Guy. He could have been a different interesting character by being a bit less oblivious and deluded. But he wasn't created to be that kind of person. He and Rich were created to be jerks bothering Susan and while back, and when they were brought back, making them completely nice would have been weird.
Larry is still much nicer than Rich in the way Dan characterized it. He's just very flawed. Sure, it wouldn't be fair to assume any guy who is bad with women is like Larry. But Dan isn't assuming that. He's just making a point about how some guy behaves, and since that's kind of the point of Larry's character as far as I can tell, it would make no sense to remove that aspect of him. It would make me an interesting character in a different way, but he wouldn't be sending the intended message anymore.

I think he's characterized that way so we can see him progress, though. At least it's my hope. I think Larry is salvageable.
I wasn't a huge fan of his interactions with Sarah so far. She seemed a bit preachy to me, I think Dan was a bit heavy-handed with the message he was trying to give. But I understand what he was trying to talk about. There are annoying guys, and Dan doesn't seem to be one, so he's just going by what he's seen from others, which is why Larry is a mix of redeeming qualities and pretty bad character flaws that might not seem completely balanced (he switches from respecting Sarah to not respecting her at all in a heartbeat, it seems).
Still, I find him at least somewhat interesting.

[Pie Guy]

Oh, I forgot that he previously existed for the comic. There are way too many characters...

Yeah, ok. It's one thing to purposefully make a character to bash, and another to bash a character who was previously existent, even if it was a bit role.

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay maybe I am being dense, but why is it obvious that Susan should of let Tedd have a clone form of her? I really don't get the latest EGS:NP

[memnarch]

Okay maybe I am being dense, but why is it obvious that Susan should of let Tedd have a clone form of her? I really don't get the latest EGS:NP

There's either things I'm not remembering or it's the same reason sarah had. Probably just stuff getting referenced that hasn't shown up is all.

[Lissou]

On New Years Eve, a bunch of people got transformed by punch. If something like that were to happen and Susan did not have a back up of herself, she could end up stuck forever as another form.

[theNater]

It may be a bit late, but I want to get my theory on Tedd's gender change down. It's kind of a long one, so please bear with me.

Tedd generates magical energy as normal for humans, but most of it is automatically converted to a different form(the remainder is stored normally, allowing him to use wands, watches, and the like). If he somehow increases the amount of magical energy he generates, all of the additional energy is converted, so his store of usable energy doesn't increase the way it does in most people. This is what prevents him from becoming a spellcaster; he'll never have a sufficient usable energy reserve with which to cast spells.

The converted energy is what makes him a mad scientist. As he mulls over a problem, the converted energy attempts to give him insight into the true nature of the universe. If there's enough energy, he'll learn something he has no mundane way of knowing. If there's too much, he'll gain the understanding and the excess energy will be converted back to traditional magic and released. This is why Tedd occasionally glows; that's excess magic being released as a lightshow.

Pandora gave Tedd the genderbending mark under the belief that he'd never be able to use the spell directly, but in hopes that having access to it would make it easier for his converted energy to provide him information relevant to genderbending. What she didn't account for was the possibility that the energy release could trigger the spell, as happened when Tedd recognized his own gender fluidity. (Note that with Grace spelling it out for him, the magic didn't need to do much, so nearly all the magic he'd built up since his last burst of insight was excess).

[Lissou]

That's an interesting theory :)

[Luzahn]

It's Dex! Missed that guy.

...Oh crap. What appears to be happenstance is drawing a suspicious number of marked people to the same location at the same time. While Pandora is also there.

I have a feeling something awful is about to happen. By my count, we're just missing Rhoda now.