LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[Coidzor]

There is a very real argument to be made that, the first time someone hears you defend the idea that women are people, you plant the idea yourself that they aren't and that needs fixing.

Really though, I've never seen feminism as "women are people", it's always been women have rights. Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.

It's a fairly well-known quote(although the attribution is a bit different each time, curiously) and you're fairly lucky that you haven't encountered arguments to the contrary in your meatspace neck of the woods with or without having said a thing.

[Athedia]

They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

I think you need a shorter nickname.

[SiuiS]

Hm. That's an interesting perspective-- and one I don't think I've encountered before-- although I'm not sure just how effective this whole notion of planting unspoken ideas could really be, ultimately.

It's a basis of college rhetoric. The more detail you put into refuting an idea, the more legitimate that idea seems. Have you ever noticed how after a really long pedantic argument, people seem to actually consider the opposition's edge-case contrived scenario?

If someone brings up an argument that has absolutely no merit, and you deconstruct it as if it did have merit, you've granted it merit in the eyes of your audience. It was worth your time, after all. The best thing to do is just say the idea isn't worth actually debunking anymore than your common sense statements already have.

It's a fairly well-known quote(although the attribution is a bit different each time, curiously) and you're fairly lucky that you haven't encountered arguments to the contrary in your meatspace neck of the woods with or without having said a thing.

I've seen "feminism is the radical idea that women are people, too" which means that not just men are people, but that's different connotative lot than "women are people" end of sentence full stop.

Regardless, I'm sure you can find all sorts of holes in the idea that women shouldn't be catered to. Why you would bother with a technical point about how a concept could be misconstrued due to language choice instead of treating women well is beyond me, though, and you probably shouldn't do that. See what I did there? ;P no offense meant, luv~

[Coidzor]

I've seen "feminism is the radical idea that women are people, too" which means that not just men are people, but that's different connotative lot than "women are people" end of sentence full stop.

Regardless, I'm sure you can find all sorts of holes in the idea that women shouldn't be catered to. Why you would bother with a technical point about how a concept could be misconstrued due to language choice instead of treating women well is beyond me, though, and you probably shouldn't do that. See what I did there? ;P no offense meant, luv~

No, not really. You still failed to get the reference. I may not have delivered it perfectly, but that does not negate that I had to spell it out for you for you to actually get the reference.

Yeah, don't call me "luv," ever again, please. I can deal with the occasional love, but luv just... no. Please, no.

[Miriel]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:

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Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?

It's not necessarily standard -- it depends --, but this definition is to be used to understand the rest of the policy, and inclusiveness is great, so I decided to make it as broad as possible. With this definition, someone who identifies as male but cross-dresses for whatever reason is included everytime I say "transgender", so they'd have protection, etc. Btw, I usually prefer trans*, but I think that here, it's more sensible to use "transgender" ("transgenre") because it sounds more formal. If all goes well, it'll be a big official policy, after all.

Anyway, I just put a working definition there for intelligibility. Some cool people and I are planning to organize a convention EDIT: about defining trans-related words in the fall, so we'll use that one in the final version

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It seems like this could potentially be used to limit the number of sororities, fraternities and women's groups. Is this intended?

No, it isn't. Hum... I guess it falls under the sort of "within its means" thing. Or we could add a specific exception?

It's a basis of college rhetoric. The more detail you put into refuting an idea, the more legitimate that idea seems. Have you ever noticed how after a really long pedantic argument, people seem to actually consider the opposition's edge-case contrived scenario?

If someone brings up an argument that has absolutely no merit, and you deconstruct it as if it did have merit, you've granted it merit in the eyes of your audience. It was worth your time, after all. The best thing to do is just say the idea isn't worth actually debunking anymore than your common sense statements already have.

However, not stating that there are real problems is the perfect way not to solve these. It just so happens that these problems work coherently in the direction of subordinating women to men.

[Ifni]

@Caroline, re policy:

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It's not necessarily standard -- it depends --, but this definition is to be used to understand the rest of the policy, and inclusiveness is great, so I decided to make it as broad as possible. With this definition, someone who identifies as male but cross-dresses for whatever reason is included everytime I say "transgender", so they'd have protection, etc. Btw, I usually prefer trans*, but I think that here, it's more sensible to use "transgender" ("transgenre") because it sounds more formal. If all goes well, it'll be a big official policy, after all.

Anyway, I just put a working definition there for intelligibility. Some cool people and I are planning to organize a convention in the fall, so we'll use that one in the final version

Yup, that makes sense. In the context of this policy, I think it's clear you want those protections to apply against discrimination on the grounds of gender expression as well, and just defining it all as "transgender" is a useful shorthand for that. I was mostly trying to clarify for my own benefit whether "gender expression" meant something different to what I thought it did.

No, it isn't. Hum... I guess it falls under the sort of "within its means" thing. Or we could add a specific exception?

Hmm. I don't have a great solution, it was just something that struck me reading it, that as currently written there was sort of an implication that getting rid of gendered spaces was always desirable. It seems like the issue (as I understand your position) isn't specifically that gendered spaces are bad, it's (a) people's access to gendered spaces should be based on their actual gender not assigned gender, and (b) the default should be that spaces/groups aren't restricted by gender (e.g. for things like bathrooms and the like where unisex bathrooms are perfectly functional).

That said a specific exemption for women's groups / fraternities / sororities could work, I'm pretty sure there's an existing specific exception in sex-discrimination legislation as applied to colleges (in the US). And it might be easier to present it to the university and let them figure it out

Anyway, nice policy, and good luck!

EDIT:

Pretty sure that was BladeofOblivion, not me.

Whoops Sorry, BladeofOblivion.

[Heliomance]

Ow. Arms hurt more than legs to epilate, and the ice pack on my epilator didn't help much. At least there's less surface area to cover than legs.

[Miriel]

Sooo...

Had a super cool time on Friday and Saturday. I was with my girlfriend, and it was great. I gave my conference, and it went very well. I networked a lot, too.

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Uh... Because of girlfriend, etc., I'm reconsidering my asexuality for a paler shade of grey than I thought, + genital dysphoria.

Then, family stuff. It was okay-ish, but I got misgendered a lot... Meh.

Oh, and apparently, my mother thought it was fine to tell people that I plan to get the surgery without telling me about it.

@Caroline, re policy:

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Hmm. I don't have a great solution, it was just something that struck me reading it, that as currently written there was sort of an implication that getting rid of gendered spaces was always desirable. It seems like the issue (as I understand your position) isn't specifically that gendered spaces are bad, it's (a) people's access to gendered spaces should be based on their actual gender not assigned gender, and (b) the default should be that spaces/groups aren't restricted by gender (e.g. for things like bathrooms and the like where unisex bathrooms are perfectly functional).

That said a specific exemption for women's groups / fraternities / sororities could work, I'm pretty sure there's an existing specific exception in sex-discrimination legislation as applied to colleges (in the US). And it might be easier to present it to the university and let them figure it out

Anyway, nice policy, and good luck!

Yes, that's exactly how I intend it. I'll put the exemption in for now.

And thanks

[Comrade]

Ow. Arms hurt more than legs to epilate, and the ice pack on my epilator didn't help much. At least there's less surface area to cover than legs.

I didn't know what an epilator is, so I decided to hit up the googles, and...

"An epilator is an electrical device used to remove hair by mechanically grasping multiple hairs simultaneously and pulling them out."

Why does it seem like so many hair removal devices originated as instruments of torture?

Had a super cool time on Friday and Saturday. I was with my girlfriend, and it was great. I gave my conference, and it went very well. I networked a lot, too.

Congratulations! Sorry about your mother's indiscretion, though.

[Miriel]

New article on transnormativity! It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

Congratulations! Sorry about your mother's indiscretion, though.

Thanks!

I think (hope?) she understood though.

[golentan]

Okay, seriously, what's with me and asexuals. Today after school, I ran down to the bookstore and browsed for a bit, grabbed myself a coffee. Cutest guy I've ever seen comes over a while later (I got the last table) and asks if he can sit there. We get to talking, and he's as amazing to talk to as he is to look at. He mentioned in passing that he gets flak for not wanting a girlfriend, which I take as a hint, so I ask if he's free later in the week to grab dinner and he gets a panicky look on his face. "Oh, uh, I'm not interested in a boyfriend either." "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable... Are you ace?" "Yeah." "Any chance you'd like to hang out just as friends?" "No... I should get going..."



That's three unrequited crushes and two unrequited cases of love on asexual folks, if anyone's counting.

[Grytorm]

New article on transnormativity! It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

Thank you for sharing that. It was interesting to read. The idea of researching others experiences with Aspergers never occurred to me. I might do it sometime.

Interesting how I get into doublethink. I still am wondering about my gender identity, and I go between seeing small bits of evidence of maybe and then cautioning myself not to over interpret things for fear of some hidden brain agenda looking for friends.

[TandemChelipeds]

What's the difference between transgendered and trans*? I'm not being facetious here, I genuinely don't know the difference. Why is the asterisk more palatable? Is it just shorter to type, or is there an actual difference in meaning?

[Miriel]

Thank you for sharing that. It was interesting to read. The idea of researching others experiences with Aspergers never occurred to me. I might do it sometime.

There is evidence that being on the autistic spectrum and being trans at the same time is very frequent.

On your questioning process: Take your time. You don't have to rush either way.

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What's the difference between transgendered and trans*? I'm not being facetious here, I genuinely don't know the difference. Why is the asterisk more palatable? Is it just shorter to type, or is there an actual difference in meaning?

There isn't necessarily a difference. Trans* includes all people with a gender different to assigned gender. Transgender (which is usually preferred to transgendered, but let's not debate this again) can mean that sometimes, but sometimes, it has a more restricted meaning. The asterisk is there to mean that everything is included.

[TandemChelipeds]

There isn't necessarily a difference. Trans* includes all people with a gender different to assigned gender. Transgender (which is usually preferred to transgendered, but let's not debate this again) can mean that sometimes, but sometimes, it has a more restricted meaning. The asterisk is there to mean that everything is included.

Oh gods. See, this is why I avoid the community. Semantics give me a headache.

[Grytorm]

There is evidence that being on the autistic spectrum and being trans at the same time is very frequent.

On your questioning process: Take your time. You don't have to rush either way.

Yeah the only thing in that article that is definitely in common is the lack of caring about my appearance.

Also another thing I want to mention is the two dreams I have had where they I am female. But both of those were weird dreams like all my dreams so what is the point of interpreting them? They are just dreams. I'm just glad I don't actually experience unpleasant things in dreams.

[Lord Raziere]

New article on transnormativity! It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...
.

.....For some reason this gives me hope. I might be transgender after all. I have a similar experience of not strongly with either gender but still wanting to be female. and I definitely agree with that internal identity thing for the most part. I have an internal vision for how I want to be but it doesn't match my external vision and so I don't really care for it. hm.

[SiuiS]

Golly: maybe you like asexuals? As far as on antic issue go, they would definitely be safe.

No, not really. You still failed to get the reference.

No, I pointedly continued because the reference does not in any way actually impact what I said, and I purposefully presented my response with that in mind. People say things. Things said get popular. Doesn't mean they are required reading. Ackowledging a quote that I didn't disagree with that is presented as disagreeing with me would weaken what I said, for no reason other than technical pedantry.

If you really want to draw a line between "women are people" and "women shouldn't be considered less than people", you can. But it's a waste of time and I'm not going to bother with it.

Alternately, we're just talking past each other really hard.

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This seriously took WAY TOO LONG to access the url for...

And, huh. That's a strange split; they're pronounced identically. Why does the one cause you pause? That's interesting.

However, not stating that there are real problems is the perfect way not to solve these. It just so happens that these problems work coherently in the direction of subordinating women to men.

That's true. But in this context, that is advocate for an All or Nothing response; you are saying that if my goal is to consider women not subpar at science, I should reject any victory that doesn't come with a Christmas tree effect of other social liberties as well – that I should prevent women from being treated equal in one field because it is not all fields.

An "all I care for right now" statement is being judged on the same level as the driving rhetorical force of a decades old movement that isn't inified anyway. A micro assessment and macro assessment shouldn't be judged on the same merits. There is nothing in what I said and what Coidzor said that conflict. They both deal with the same topic using different words. Mine is operational, his is theoretical.

[Miriel]

Oh gods. See, this is why I avoid the community. Semantics give me a headache.

Well, when you are creating new words to describe newly accepted but very diverse realities, you sort of have to define what these new words mean. Not everyone has the same definition, but in the end it really doesn't matter, because the "community" has the same broad goal: total acceptance of and equity for all gender-variant or non-conforming people

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@ Lord Raziere: Glad to be of service Until otherwise noted, you are trans as far as I'm concerned.

(Just to clarify: Now, I do feel strongly as a woman. But I didn't really before transition. I just felt wrong and broken. Now, by being a woman, I am happy. Therefore, I am a woman, because that's how I can be happy.)

That's true. But in this context, that is advocate for an All or Nothing response; you are saying that if my goal is to consider women not subpar at science, I should reject any victory that doesn't come with a Christmas tree effect of other social liberties as well – that I should prevent women from being treated equal in one field because it is not all fields.

An "all I care for right now" statement is being judged on the same level as the driving rhetorical force of a decades old movement that isn't inified anyway. A micro assessment and macro assessment shouldn't be judged on the same merits. There is nothing in what I said and what Coidzor said that conflict. They both deal with the same topic using different words. Mine is operational, his is theoretical.

Hum, maybe it's because I should get some sleep, but I'm not sure I understood.

[SiuiS]

Hum, maybe it's because I should get some sleep, but I'm not sure I understood.

Likely means I'm being a numpty. This whole tangent started off with the implications of thigs said, unsaid and how they were phrased; there is no good end to it. Explaining it just goes deep into interpretational rhetoric. No good can come out of that.

Bluh. English is hard.

[Arachu]

New article on transnormativity! It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

I don't have Asperger's, but some parts of that sounded... Familiar. @.@

Spoiler: TW: Mental illness?

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I've got memories going back to before I could walk. Aside from some that I always remember readily (like my first thought that I consciously noticed that I had or me pointing out that things looked blurry from certain angles, just before getting glasses), most of them are basically gone until something reminds me of them and they suddenly come back very clearly.

The reason I bring that up is, during every one of these memories I have always felt dysphoria to some extent. But I didn't know what it was - it was already familiar by the time I could've noticed - so I never really thought too hard about it. It didn't help that I also always had non-gender-related dysphoria, like depression and anxiety and whatever you'd call wishing that you weren't too heavy to run once in a while. It all just sort of blended together, and I didn't handle it very well... Basically, I was too busy distracting myself from it and blaming the universe when that didn't work to figure out what was up. But despite that, I still identified with girls on some level that I wasn't fully aware of.

And then puberty started and everything got quadratically worse within months. I dissociated a bunch, and ended up with an extra personality to shut my emotions down when they started getting out of hand... Er, long story short I noticed that I wasn't a guy during all of this but I was too busy holding myself together to notice that I was actually a girl. That took until I was like, 19 or 20.

When I did finally figure that out, I was finally able to start untangling everything else. That wasn't easy, and I couldn't have gotten far without help from everyone that was on the thread back then (especially someone I won't single out)... I'm still sorting some things out, but among other things I actually feel at least a little bit happy most of the time now. It's nice.

What I bring it up for is, I both do and don't fit the narrative. So like, anytime I start explaining my gender to someone I also have to explain all of the stereotypes I happen to not fit, even without factoring in other stuff like my pansexuality. It's kind of annoying sometimes, but also a good way to point those stereotypes out and explain that they aren't always true so


~Bianca

[Heliomance]

New article on transnormativity! It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

Very interesting, and a lot of things that ring true for me in there. Thanks!

[Delusion]

So Kela (the institution handling welfare in Finland) has declining to pay for my therapy. Which sucks. A lot. If I can't get my parents to play for it that means I can't afford my therapist and the therapy has been my last hope of recovering from anixety.

Their reason's for not paying? They do not think that this is the right time for me to go to psychotherapy. One of the reasons listed for that is that I am transitioning atm. Which has increased my happiness and given me strenght needed to start dealing with my anxiety. But of course it means that normal psychotherapy wouldn't help, says someone who has never met me...

[Miriel]

So Kela (the institution handling welfare in Finland) has declining to pay for my therapy. Which sucks. A lot. If I can't get my parents to play for it that means I can't afford my therapist and the therapy has been my last hope of recovering from anixety.

Their reason's for not paying? They do not think that this is the right time for me to go to psychotherapy. One of the reasons listed for that is that I am transitioning atm. Which has increased my happiness and given me strenght needed to start dealing with my anxiety. But of course it means that normal psychotherapy wouldn't help, says someone who has never met me...

... That's ridiculous. *hug*

Hurray for denial of services to trans people...

[Heliomance]

Ugh. De-hairing your legs - by any method - is just so tedious! There's so much surface area to cover, and the angles are awkward, so you miss bits, then you have to go over the bits you missed, then you spot more missed spots, and you have to tease out the ingrown hairs from last time, and...

Bleh. Takes too long.

[Irish Musician]

Ugh. De-hairing your legs - by any method - is just so tedious! There's so much surface area to cover, and the angles are awkward, so you miss bits, then you have to go over the bits you missed, then you spot more missed spots, and you have to tease out the ingrown hairs from last time, and...

Bleh. Takes too long.

Every time my wife shaves she misses at least 2-3 spots. Of course she only finds them after she is all dried off and sitting in the living room

[Irish Musician]

Good 'ol George posted this today, thought I should share it.

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[Philemonite]

Good 'ol George posted this today, thought I should share it.

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I love all the people here, but today I love you the most.

[Irish Musician]

I love all the people here, but today I love you the most.

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[Philemonite]