LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[Miriel]

Missed those posts.

I think you are being overly sensitive. You weren't cut because you are trans. You were cut because you could not be in all the scenes. End of sentence. You yourself said the other trans people were in the bar, so it isn't that the director didn't want trans people in that scene.

But he didn't want trans people in any other scene. That's weird. I (and other people on set) don't understand why trans people must be arrested. Why couldn't trans people do something other than be victims at Stonewall?

Anyway. I won't judge the movie before seeing it, but this doesn't make me feel confident about the representation of trans women.

Again, you are being over sensitive. Do you really think the director was going to keep track of all the extras? Especially when he had someone whose job it was to oversee the extras? And, again, you yourself said there were drag queens there. For all he bloody well knows, you could have been another of the drag queens!

I didn't blame him for the question he asked me. But it was unpleasant for me. Saying I felt alienated doesn't mean I'm blaming him as an evil person of evilness.

Oh, and for more context:
First, the director sees me, and asks other important crew member: "Is [he? that?] a drag queen?". I step in to answer, but they ignore me. (Asking me the question would have been more polite, but I guess I'm a lowly extra, so yeah.)

It's only later that I directly said I was a trans woman, and the context is not something I remember. Maybe I was asked, maybe I stepped in, I don't know. I don't remember it exactly, but I was once again "he" and a drag queen.

(I should like to mention I talked to the director and got a wink from one of the actors! ... and then I was moved in the back and cut.)

Why should it be meaningful?

It's meaningful in that generally, when I'm crying, it means I really felt something and I'm genuinely feeling bad.

Caroline's post makes it sound like she thinks the director intentionally misgendered her. I strongly doubt that was the case. By her own admission, the mistake appears to be an honest one.

I think it was an honest mistake, but other people's honest mistakes don't make me feel less like a fake woman, like a man in a dress.

If I understood correctly, she was cut because she couldn't be in one specific scene (inside the bar), and the director wanted all the trans people to be in that scene, as opposed to other scenes that were taking place at the same time (in the movie), but were to be filmed on the day Caroline was present. If she'd been cis, she could've been in one of the other scenes without a problem.

Days. I was there two days.

I don't mind not being in the bar, because I really couldn't for continuity reasons. But I was totally usable as a riot participant.

[KenderWizard]

I've come to the conclusion that I don't pass nearly as well as I thought I did. I'm pretty sure everyone that interacts with me more than just passing in the street knows, they're just too polite to say anything. And some people just passing in the street spot it. Bah.

My instinct is that you could be overestimating both people's observational skills and their politeness. I interact with people almost every day who are both apparently near-completely unaware of their surroundings, and very rude. I'm not trans, but I do know that feeling of "Oh god, everyone must be staring at me because of [thing that's hyper-obvious to me]", and yes, some people will notice and lots of people are polite about it if they do notice, and it's horrible to feel under scrutiny and like you're not measuring up. But, you know, in a lot of ways, you're still pretty early on, you know? I think you've made amazing progress, and I'm really impressed with how feminine you've become. I think you might slip under the radar more than you think you do, because you know exactly what to look for in yourself when you make mistakes. And even if you aren't passing perfectly right now, you've made huge progress, and you will make more progress still. You're young and pretty, and you'll get there.

[Kesnit]

But he didn't want trans people in any other scene. That's weird. I (and other people on set) don't understand why trans people must be arrested. Why couldn't trans people do something other than be victims at Stonewall?

Everyone got arrested at Stonewall.

It's meaningful in that generally, when I'm crying, it means I really felt something and I'm genuinely feeling bad.

What I was trying to ask was "why should the director have kept you, just because you were crying?" I'm sure getting cut wasn't fun, but your post made it sound like you felt you should have been kept because you were crying.

[Thufir]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

YES.

I've come to the conclusion that I don't pass nearly as well as I thought I did. I'm pretty sure everyone that interacts with me more than just passing in the street knows, they're just too polite to say anything. And some people just passing in the street spot it. Bah.

Well, of course it's potentially harder for me to judge given I already know you're a transwoman, but based on photos I remember seeing, I think you definitely pass very well some of the time.
Of course, it's difficult to tell the difference between someone who knows and is too polite to mention it and someone who doesn't know. Honestly though, and I realise this is much, much easier said than done, I think your best option is to try not to care too much if they know you're trans or not. Be confident and comfortable in how you look regardless of what other people may think, and it'll probably help you look better and pass better; whereas if you're worrying about how well you pass, if you look a bit uneasy maybe, people are then more likely to look closer for reasons for that uneasiness and spot tell-tale details they may otherwise have glossed over. And then even if they do know and are too polite to say anything, they'll probably find it easier to relax and just treat you normally regardless if you in turn are relaxed and unconcerned about it.

The same principle applies to other potential self-image issues. Just don't ask how well it worked for me (I'm bad at taking my own advice, OK).

[Miriel]

Everyone got arrested at Stonewall.

Yeah, but in the movie, trans women do nothing else than that, apparently. They can't be outside and not-arrested-inside or anything. Why couldn't I just be a random not-arrested trans woman doing fun rioty things?

Anyway. We'll be able to judge about trans inclusiveness when the movie gets screened.

What I was trying to ask was "why should the director have kept you, just because you were crying?" I'm sure getting cut wasn't fun, but your post made it sound like you felt you should have been kept because you were crying.

Hum, no. I was almost crying (I didn't actually cry), therefore I was genuinely feeling bad, therefore I'm not faking. You're mixing things.

1) I don't really care about getting cut. I was paid anyway, so yay! I care about the reason I was cut (i.e. trans women can't be outside, unlike effeminate gay men), because that's strange.
2) I was misgendered several times, which doesn't really happen in real life. Even though there are reasons for this, it made me feel very bad.

The two are separate things, even though they reinforce each other.

Also (I think I forgot to mention it -- I forget things), when they told me I couldn't be a not-arrested trans woman, they asked if I would play a boy, twice. The idea that with proper makeup, I'm passing fairly well and could play a cis woman never entered their minds. This made me feel super bad too.

I posted that because this is a support thread and it was a bad experience and I wanted hugs and support, nothing else.

[Philemonite]

I posted that because this is a support thread and it was a bad experience and I wanted hugs and support, nothing else.

Belated hugs. I don't think Kesnit meant anything bad, but you are right, this is a support thread.

[Heliomance]

My instinct is that you could be overestimating both people's observational skills and their politeness. I interact with people almost every day who are both apparently near-completely unaware of their surroundings, and very rude. I'm not trans, but I do know that feeling of "Oh god, everyone must be staring at me because of [thing that's hyper-obvious to me]", and yes, some people will notice and lots of people are polite about it if they do notice, and it's horrible to feel under scrutiny and like you're not measuring up. But, you know, in a lot of ways, you're still pretty early on, you know? I think you've made amazing progress, and I'm really impressed with how feminine you've become. I think you might slip under the radar more than you think you do, because you know exactly what to look for in yourself when you make mistakes. And even if you aren't passing perfectly right now, you've made huge progress, and you will make more progress still. You're young and pretty, and you'll get there.

It's more that a few people have mentioned it - one guy at work apologised for putting his foot in his mouth by accidentally replying to my flippant "There you go, sir!" with "Thank you, sir!", a girl at my induction spotted it, one of the people at the charity shop kept getting the pronouns wrong... I just feel, if there's that many people that I know are reading me as male, how many are there that I don't know about?

[Kesnit]

Also (I think I forgot to mention it -- I forget things), when they told me I couldn't be a not-arrested trans woman, they asked if I would play a boy, twice. The idea that with proper makeup, I'm passing fairly well and could play a cis woman never entered their minds. This made me feel super bad too.

OUCH! Wow...

Belated hugs. I don't think Kesnit meant anything bad, but you are right, this is a support thread.

Yeah, you're right.

Caroline, I am sorry.

[golentan]

It's more that a few people have mentioned it - one guy at work apologised for putting his foot in his mouth by accidentally replying to my flippant "There you go, sir!" with "Thank you, sir!", a girl at my induction spotted it, one of the people at the charity shop kept getting the pronouns wrong... I just feel, if there's that many people that I know are reading me as male, how many are there that I don't know about?

Speaking for myself, I accidentally placed a "sir" or "ma'am" or gendered pronoun pretty much at a rate of once a week at my old job, and I have no reason to believe that many if any of the people were trans, and I apologized when I caught myself doing so. Also, I got ma'am-d just yesterday, and I haven't had a vulva on this body ever, and have a full beard.

I know it's a sore spot for you, but my advice is not to worry about it as much as you can avoid doing so.

[Heliomance]

The way he phrased his apology made it fairly clear that he was aware of my being trans, though it was never said in so many words. I know for certain some people are noticing; given that fact, it seems likely that many are.

[KyooTrap]

Thank you all for the kind words. I think what I see in the mirror isn't what everyone else sees. It really helps that a lot of people think I pass even just a bit. So yar.

Also a boy asked me out today!!! We've known each other for three years but been in love for a year. Neither of us thought the other wanted a relationship though. So he finally asked me out and I said yes and when he asked me to watch Adventure Time with him as his girlfriend I melted... <3

[Miriel]

Yeah, you're right.

Caroline, I am sorry.

Apology accepted. No offense taken

[Kesnit]

Also a boy asked me out today!!! We've known each other for three years but been in love for a year. Neither of us thought the other wanted a relationship though. So he finally asked me out and I said yes and when he asked me to watch Adventure Time with him as his girlfriend I melted... <3

That show is perfect for a couple to watch together. It's so CUTE! Finn and Jake are such awesome characters, and play so well together.

[golentan]

Also a boy asked me out today!!! We've known each other for three years but been in love for a year. Neither of us thought the other wanted a relationship though. So he finally asked me out and I said yes and when he asked me to watch Adventure Time with him as his girlfriend I melted... <3

I hope you will forgive me for turning literally green with envy.

Spoiler

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I'm happy for you, but I'm still hung up on my friend I will never ever be with.

[Coidzor]

Thank you all for the kind words. I think what I see in the mirror isn't what everyone else sees. It really helps that a lot of people think I pass even just a bit. So yar.

Also a boy asked me out today!!! We've known each other for three years but been in love for a year. Neither of us thought the other wanted a relationship though. So he finally asked me out and I said yes and when he asked me to watch Adventure Time with him as his girlfriend I melted... <3

Congratulations! Hopefully you didn't melt too deeply through the crust of the earth, though. Don't want you reaching the core and causing a total existence failure for the planet, after all.

[lio45]

As promised, my article in the Huffington Post. In French. I don't know if I'll translate it, because busy.

Nice! Sucks that the Devoir cut it, though.

I'm surprised (and disappointed) that the Gai-Écoute guy seems to know so little about things I'd expect him to be familiar with. Though come to think of it you're right that the LG and the T in LGBT are actually pretty different universes in practice.

Also, I got ma'am-d just yesterday, and I haven't had a vulva on this body ever, and have a full beard.

You got ma'am-d and you're a guy who has a full beard?!?

Someone needs to get their eyes checked...

[BladeofObliviom]

Congratulations! Hopefully you didn't melt too deeply through the crust of the earth, though. Don't want you reaching the core and causing a total existence failure for the planet, after all.

Don't worry, that's only if they kiss.

You got ma'am-d and you're a guy who has a full beard?!?

Someone needs to get their eyes checked...

I think the point was that sometimes people say things like that often enough that it becomes reflexive, and do so literally without thinking about it. Somebody feel free to correct me if I completely misread it, though.

[turkishproverb]

Congrats KyooTrap.


Huh. A straight friend just offered to take me to a gay bar. Well. I think that settles how obvious my "alone" feeling are.

[SiuiS]

N

You got ma'am-d and you're a guy who has a full beard?!?

Someone needs to get their eyes checked...

As a certain fashion-forward quadruped I know likes to say (well, has said once. In song.) It's all in the presentation. "Sir" and "ma'am" are as much about presence, leverage, body language and poise as anything else. I've been able to switch between the two depending on how ladylike I feel at work (usually not very <__<).

[Heliomance]

I hope you will forgive me for turning literally green with envy.

...you're always green, Golly.

[KenderWizard]

It's more that a few people have mentioned it - one guy at work apologised for putting his foot in his mouth by accidentally replying to my flippant "There you go, sir!" with "Thank you, sir!", a girl at my induction spotted it, one of the people at the charity shop kept getting the pronouns wrong... I just feel, if there's that many people that I know are reading me as male, how many are there that I don't know about?

I appreciate that. I still think you look good and that it's hard to accurately estimate how many people are falling into "recognises as girl", "unsure of gender", "thinks is boy" boxes, and that all the data points of misgendering cause emotional reactions. I think that makes it likely you have a bias towards remembering the people who misgender you, and don't remember so well all the people who just accept the girl they see, but I also think your emotions are very important. I know it's an improving situation as you get used to existing in the world as a girl. Hugs?

[Mina Kobold]

Everyone got arrested at Stonewall.

Spoiler: Being nitpicky, but that's not quite right

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Just popping in to say this, but that does not appear to be accurate. While the raid lead to the arrest of anyone dressed as a woman who was deemed to be of the "wrong sex" (it was checked in bathrooms by police officers who were women, though apparently people dressed like men were not checked) or who was involved with organised crime (Mostly employees at the bar, seeing as it was mafia-run), most people were let go. From what I can find, it was these people, who were let go, who started the crowd and riot outside Stonewall. A lot of what happened during the riot might indeed have warranted arrests, but all I can find indicate that the riot was cleared by chasing off the crowd, not by arresting the hundreds of people rioting. There is little to no reason that a trans person could not have simply joined the crowd without having been arrested first. I might be completely wrong, but it makes sense to me that people who might know of or frequent Stonewall could have been elsewhere at the time of the raid and simply join in the crowd when they notice the commotion (all it requires is arriving ten minutes later or living nearby), and disappeared sometime later.

So yes, every trans person (or at least AMAB trans people, since the offence was for wearing women's clothing and being assigned male) inside of the bar might have been arrested at first, the Stonewall Riots was done by a lot more than just the patrons of the bar at that time (also more than one riot, but that's a detail). Caroline was told that she couldn't be there because she could not be in that inside-Stonewall scene and be arrested, due to the reasoning that all trans extras had to be inside the Inn and be arrested, which is a very odd line or reasoning. At least to me. ^_^'

*Also, belated hugs to Caroline*

[Heliomance]

...what the hell? What the actual hell?

WARNING: Despicable article that will cause rage. Transphobia, and lots of it, playing at being satire.

[Philemonite]

Spoiler: WTF?

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I...don't get it. Especially this comment "actual tranny & i thought this was pretty funny".

[SiuiS]

Spoiler: SecondLife, Viewers and Simulators

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"Sim" is SL slang/jargon for "simulated region", which is basically a physical space (generally about 512 meters long and wide, although some disconnected "islands" are larger) that you move around and interact in. They're capable of being connected to each other--you can even see the terrain and objects/avatars in neighboring sims--but lots exist in a sort of isolated bubble from each other, with nothing but the ocean surrounding them. Those are referred to as islands.
SecondLife is, when you get down to it, really more of a social network made up of different websites and personal pages that you can view in three dimensions (especially with the advent of Oculus Rift support) than a "game".
Although there are lots of roleplay sims and regions [usually owned by Linden Labs] which are aimed at educational or "true to life" depictions of cities around the world.

And yeah, it has a phone version. It has, like, ten phone versions. Some are better than others, but there are definitely a lot to choose from...I think one person even made a text-only app for Blackberries and the less powerful smartphones. It lets you chat and it has a rudimentary radar so you know if someone is standing right next to you, but beyond that it's super basic.
Viewers/clients like Firestorm and Emerald are the "web browsers" through which you view the "network" that makes up SL. Lots of them exist and almost all of them can be used to connect to the same grid.


Here's a gallery full of screenshots I've taken over the eons years, if you're interested. I actually have like seventeen thousand screenshots (not an exaggeration!) on my computer, but this is a small selection.

That sounds cool actually.

It happens every single time he interacts with trans people on the forum. It'd be less of a pain if he didn't seem to make a habit of actually gravitating toward any trans issue-related thread that popped up just to tell us all to shut up and go back to our little corners. Like that forsaken "Drow transgenderism" thread.

Hmm. Maybe. I don't think he's so bad, but then I sometimes fit into that category, and was just recently arguing against Kesnit who did too. I think it's too fine and blurry a line to really say.

...what the hell? What the actual hell?

WARNING: Despicable article that will cause rage. Transphobia, and lots of it, playing at being satire.

Well, that's certainly a thing.
I like that the only actual complaint in there other than "OMG they're entitled you guys" was that saying being trans is normal is somehow insulting if twisted semantically, and I've never seen that come up.

[Comrade]

...what the hell? What the actual hell?

WARNING: Despicable article that will cause rage. Transphobia, and lots of it, playing at being satire.

goddammit why did I read the comments

[Philemonite]

goddammit why did I read the comments

And I just clicked "load more comments" button.

I feel dirty for reading that.

[Athedia]

The article: Ugh, just....

At Home: I just had a information session with my brother just now. Sometimes he gets on a topic and can't let go and he is lacking in some knowledge of social cues (he has Asbergers) and I am the only one able to explain things to him so he understands and listens, usually by referencing videogames. This conversation was on cultural appropriation and privilege, which he has only had explained to him in more hostile ways. My dad came in part way through the discussion and I was explaining privilege to him as well. Sigh, I don't know if my dad understands but I think my brother is starting too.

EDIT: Hey I had a question that I think is better for this thread. My schools Queer Advocacy group has a slightly bad habit of pushing non-LGB issues aside due to focusing on what the leaders of the group know. A few of my friends have been encouraging me, as the only openly asexual person on campus, to push for them to do something for Asexual Awareness Week, if only to have an info session during the weekly meeting. Currently I have people assuming I am straight, in denial, or bisexual and me having to explain the difference between romantic and sexual attraction whenever the topic comes up... it gets annoying that people don't know or respect my identity. One of the people who is encouraging me is an officer in the club and supports me.

TL;DR I want to do something for Asexual Awareness Week at my college and am trying to figure out how best to approach the club to ask. I know a few other people on campus who are ace and don't want to come out because they don't want to be called freaks and want to spread info.

[golentan]

...what the hell? What the actual hell?

WARNING: Despicable article that will cause rage. Transphobia, and lots of it, playing at being satire.

Halfway through and I'm done.

[Delusion]

Had a date today and it went wll and apparently I have a GF now