What do you Girls want from a Guy physicaly?

[Mauve Shirt]

So I employed intensive research techniques to figure out what it is that men want in a relationship. What I've learned is that 99.9% of men prefer other men or ladies wearing masks. At least in my area's craigslist.

[Coidzor]

"No Means No" is a meaningless lie to them (Unless it's a homeless, jobless bum who can't even beg in the streets, who's learned the cost of accepting that philosophy to an extreme).

What, so now we're onto "all men are rapists?" Is that where we really want to go with this now?

I do think there is too much representation in the media of relationships that start with the female lead saying "no", and the male lead insisting until she realises how wrong she was and how amazing the guy is.

Agreed.

That's probably meant as some sort of fantasy for straight and bi males to live through the protagonist, but it's creepy.

Doubly agreed.

The female lead becomes that goal to obtain rather than a person with a right to her opinion. Her "no" is brushed aside as though the protagonist knows better what's good for her, and his insistence is seen as romantic rather than harassing someone who already turned him down.

Rom Coms do seem to have a lot to answer for, aye.

[The Succubus]

I'm kind of curious now....what do you guys want from a girl physically?

[Mauve Shirt]

Patriarchy, Coid. You don't want to be rapists, but society has turned you into a potential rapist. Like the friendliest pitbull could go from tail wagging to tearing your face off, so could any male just suddenly have the rapist switch flipped in his brain.
It's all mind control by the advertisements.

[razovor]

I'm sexually attracted to women, so not ideal to answer the original posters question, but I'll try to answer this one;

Is it really that hard to get some indication of interest before you get emotionally invested at the level of want-to-spend-the-rest-of-my-life-with-this-person?

It can be difficult. The build up of emotional investment is very unreliable.

Personally I seem to slowly build up friendships with people, and once I start getting the impression they're pretty awesome and care about me, my emotional investment sky-rockets. To point where it can make me really anxious and clingy.

But that last bit might be largely inexperience. It seems to be getting better, and my love for people hasn't reduced.

[Icewraith]

The thing about rejection in a romantic situation is that it's essentially telling the other person to give up on their hopes, dreams, and plans for their life, and telling them that what they want is impossible to achieve.

That doesn't tend to go over well with guys, who are taught that nothing's impossible if you put your mind to it and work your ass off for it, if at first you don't succeed, try again, etc. with that goal-driven competition reinforced by and permeating every aspect of their lives - Anywhere else, anything is possible, even with competition. Sure, the effort may not be possible to achieve in a human lifetime, but that tends to be a trivialized obstacle. "No Means No" is a meaningless lie to them (Unless it's a homeless, jobless bum who can't even beg in the streets, who's learned the cost of accepting that philosophy to an extreme).

Look, if you've got person-specific hopes, dreams, and plans for the other person's life before you ask them out for the first time, you're wasting quite a lot of mental effort. That's also going to make rejection way worse.

Very few things are impossible if you both put your mind to them and work your ass off for them. If you do only one and not the other, your odds drop quickly. There are some realistic concerns of course.

The thing about "no means no" is that in many situations, a change in circumstances or new information can result in "yes" being more optimal than "no". This is especially true if there's a reason with the no.

"No, I'm ______" - well, does that mean something's back on the table when you're not ______ anymore?

"No, [consequence]." If [consequence] is negated, maybe so will the objection be?

Note that these solutions are more or less appropriate depending on what you fill in the blanks with. Look at the difference between "married", "on my period", and "raiding in five minutes, we don't have time" in the first example. (Last situation led to a nomination for "best quickie ever" from both sides)

How about [I'll get pregnant], [your parents will totally hear us], [I'm not attracted to you], [I'll miss my flight], and [this is sexual harassment]? Some of those are definite nos, some are open to negotiation, some might be open to negotiation at a later time under different conditions.

In the general case, no does mean no. In specific cases, no is negotiable. In very specific cases, no is actually supposed to be ignored. Communication is always context-dependant.

[Zrak]

I'm usually pretty good about picking up on internet sarcasm, but after the craigslist comment, I honestly can't tell if russdm is being sarcastic or not. I mean, he sounds earnest, but craigslist?

The general thrust of the conversation right now is "Getting rejected sucks so it's better to keep your feelings to yourself."

I think you're misconstruing an objection to the argument "It is better to make your feelings known in all cases" as an argument that it is better to keep your feelings to yourself in all cases. My only contentions are that there's nothing inherently wrong with keeping one's feelings to oneself and that doing so is at least arguably a preferable option for certain people in certain situations. I see nothing wrong with keeping my feelings to myself if I believe, for one reason or another, that pursuing a romantic relationship is a bad idea, despite my attraction to someone. The problem is not that people keep their feelings to themselves, but that people who keep their feelings to themselves become bitter or otherwise upset when a relationship doesn't develop; as I said, the idea of "friendzoning" is not based in keeping one's feelings private, on its own, but in an unwillingness to accept the consequences of that decision. If someone chooses to keep their feelings to themselves, knowing and accepting that this means nothing is going to happen, I don't see anything wrong with that decision. As such, I object to the posts in this thread which come across as arguing that choosing to remain platonic friends rather than mention one's attraction is some kind of character flaw or even moral wrongdoing.

I do think there is too much representation in the media of relationships that start with the female lead saying "no", and the male lead insisting until she realises how wrong she was and how amazing the guy is.

Is this really that common? I hear people talk about it a fair amount, but I can't really think of many examples. Maybe I'm just missing out on a specific subset of romantic comedies, or something.

[Ifni]

If someone chooses to keep their feelings to themselves, knowing and accepting that this means nothing is going to happen, I don't see anything wrong with that decision. As such, I object to the posts in this thread which come across as arguing that choosing to remain platonic friends rather than mention one's attraction is some kind of character flaw or even moral wrongdoing.

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with that, provided you can actually keep those feelings from influencing your behavior. The point where it gets creepy is (a) as you note, when the person involved gets bitter and resentful about it, or (b) when they resort to persistent, unsolicited, ambiguously 'romantic' gestures rather than say anything direct.

[Aedilred]

If someone has centered their hopes, dreams and plans for their life around another human being without bothering to first find out if that person has any interest whatsoever in playing their designated role, then the problem is not with either the act of rejection or the person doing the rejecting. Even if they say "yes" this sounds like a recipe for future disaster. (What happens if that person later decides the relationship isn't working and wants to leave?)

Heartbreak, depression, and enduring emotional trauma. Often quite a lot of self-loathing too.

But that can also be quite hard to avoid anyway, especially if a relationship is initially successful and gets past the short term. It's one of those thing that it's actually quite difficult to have a Plan B about without screwing up what's already in front of you. There's a saying that if you're not planning for success you're planning for failure, and while it's a bit trite it is applicable in the context of relationships, I think.

And if you're the sort of person who falls for people quickly, or even if you're not usually but happen to run into someone who you think is just that awesome, the emotional investment can run away with you quite quickly before you've even really noticed what's going on.

Is it really that hard to get some indication of interest before you get emotionally invested at the level of want-to-spend-the-rest-of-my-life-with-this-person?

It depends. But, often, yes. As I've mentioned before a number of times, from a rational perspective getting emotionally invested too early is an entirely stupid thing to do, but emotional investment is often pretty much entirely irrational.

Look, if you've got person-specific hopes, dreams, and plans for the other person's life before you ask them out for the first time, you're wasting quite a lot of mental effort. That's also going to make rejection way worse.

Again, though, as much as you can tell yourself that, it often just doesn't work that way. I don't think anyone, except total nutters, intends to plan out entire futures with other people before they ask them out. It just sort of happens, as a side effect of the attraction in the first place, if it's strong enough.

Is this really that common? I hear people talk about it a fair amount, but I can't really think of many examples. Maybe I'm just missing out on a specific subset of romantic comedies, or something.

The two genre classics, at least of something vaguely along these lines, are probably The Taming of the Shrew and Pride and Prejudice. The latter of which, it probably bears mentioning, is both written by a woman and, at least in my experience, extraordinarily popular among young women.

[warty goblin]

I'm kind of curious now....what do you guys want from a girl physically?

Mostly a physical interest in me. A moderate level of physical fitness. After that I'm extremely negotiable.

Patriarchy, Coid. You don't want to be rapists, but society has turned you into a potential rapist. Like the friendliest pitbull could go from tail wagging to tearing your face off, so could any male just suddenly have the rapist switch flipped in his brain.
It's all mind control by the advertisements.

Please let this be sarcasm.

[Eldariel]

Heartbreak, depression, and enduring emotional trauma. Often quite a lot of self-loathing too.

But that can also be quite hard to avoid anyway, especially if a relationship is initially successful and gets past the short term. It's one of those thing that it's actually quite difficult to have a Plan B about without screwing up what's already in front of you. There's a saying that if you're not planning for success you're planning for failure, and while it's a bit trite it is applicable in the context of relationships, I think.

And if you're the sort of person who falls for people quickly, or even if you're not usually but happen to run into someone who you think is just that awesome, the emotional investment can run away with you quite quickly before you've even really noticed what's going on.

Let's be honest, if you live your life, you will be at a risk of getting hurt. The only way to avoid the risk of emotional pain is to basically not open yourself up to other people in the first place, which is not a fulfilling life - at that point you might as well not feel anything to start with so there's precious little to avoid. Genetic programming and all that, a human can't live alone. In short, the risk emotional pain is an unavoidable part of life anyways; trying to build your relationships so that you're not at any risk is a doomed endeavor. Both, the openness that risks the emotional pain and the trust that the other party won't hurt you are a part of a relationship. Of course, romantic relationships are their own number in this regard.

[Aedilred]

Let's be honest, if you live your life, you will be at a risk of getting hurt. The only way to avoid the risk of emotional pain is to basically not open yourself up to other people in the first place, which is not a fulfilling life - at that point you might as well not feel anything to start with so there's precious little to avoid. Genetic programming and all that, a human can't live alone. In short, the risk emotional pain is an unavoidable part of life anyways; trying to build your relationships so that you're not at any risk is a doomed endeavor. Both, the openness that risks the emotional pain and the trust that the other party won't hurt you are a part of a relationship. Of course, romantic relationships are their own number in this regard.

Oh sure, I get all that. I'm not trying to make an argument that people should keep stuff to themselves at all times or anything like that. I'm just trying to explain why people do, since there seems to be a lack of understanding there, and why such behaviour is not necessarily malevolent or disrespectful or anything like that.

[Scowling Dragon]

Whatever. Screw this-Il just get a mail order bride. That will make things so much simpler.

[Coidzor]

I'm kind of curious now....what do you guys want from a girl physically?

A pulse and the capacity to both in engage in and enjoy romantic and sexual relationships? Unless we're asexual and then just delete "and sexual" from the preceding sentence. Or aromantic in which case it's delete "romantic and," from the first sentence in this paragraph.

I have no idea what asexual, aromantic men would want with, from, or of women in this context.

[Zrak]

The two genre classics, at least of something vaguely along these lines, are probably The Taming of the Shrew and Pride and Prejudice. The latter of which, it probably bears mentioning, is both written by a woman and, at least in my experience, extraordinarily popular among young women.

I don't really think Pride and Prejudice counts. After his initial rejection, Darcy sends a letter to apologize for and explain his behavior and then he leaves it at that. He doesn't make any further attempts to see Elizabeth (she runs into him while visiting his estate) and only intervenes to secure Lydia's marriage to Wickham on the condition of his anonymity. Darcy only returns to Longbourn to ask for Elizabeth's hand a second time because his aunt informed him that Elizabeth refused to promise not to marry him.

Taming of the Shrew fits the narrative, but it's also not very popular amongst modern audiences and has been regarded as misogynistic arguably since its creation; in general, the only favorable opinions of the play are from readings that view it as a mockery or subversion of that narrative. The two primary groups are those who read the "Induction" as a signifier that the play is intended as a farcical satire of its primary narrative and from those who believe Katherina's final speech is meant to be read ironically; by stealing the scene from her husband to explain how he has tamed her, Katherina establishes herself as the one actually in control, revealing that she has "tamed" Petruchio, not the other way around. There is a less common third reading in which the play is a parodic subversion of the narrative, in which Petruchio wins Katherina's affection not by proving to her that he's a good man who deserves her love, but by establishing that he is as caustic and mean-spirited as she is; rather than realizing how amazing Petruchio is and falling in love with him, as in the narrative Lissuo cited, she realizes how horrible he is and falls in love with him. In any case, I think it's difficult to cite the play as either a clear, straightforward example of the trope or as a particularly popular one.

Really, the only straightforward example I can think of is Pamela, which isn't exactly popular, nowadays. I don't think I've ever met anyone who read Pamela outside of academia.

[russdm]

I'm kind of curious now....what do you guys want from a girl physically?

A girl that is bit of a geek or nerd or gamer or lover of anime. A girl that can handle having fun. A girl that can laugh. A girl that has her opinions and doesn't just spout what she has been told to. A girl comfortable with her body.

You replace girl with woman if need be.

[Aedilred]

I don't really think Pride and Prejudice counts. After his initial rejection, Darcy sends a letter to apologize for and explain his behavior and then he leaves it at that. He doesn't make any further attempts to see Elizabeth (she runs into him while visiting his estate) and only intervenes to secure Lydia's marriage to Wickham on the condition of his anonymity. Darcy only returns to Longbourn to ask for Elizabeth's hand a second time because his aunt informed him that Elizabeth refused to promise not to marry him.

All of that is details, though. The overarching shape of the plot is: boy meets girl, girl rejects boy, boy somehow demonstrates that he's a nice guy after all, girl agrees to marry boy.

The precise manner in which this is accomplished is kind of beside the point, since everyone is always convinced their reasons for doing the stupid things they do are excellent and they're being super-subtle about it and they're totally doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and they're handling it in the best possible way. The point is that it's a demonstration of the basic principle at work (i.e. that a no isn't necessarily final no matter how it might appear and there is always room for things to change if she can just realise how great you really are).

[Sartharina]

If someone has centered their hopes, dreams and plans for their life around another human being without bothering to first find out if that person has any interest whatsoever in playing their designated role, then the problem is not with either the act of rejection or the person doing the rejecting. Even if they say "yes" this sounds like a recipe for future disaster. (What happens if that person later decides the relationship isn't working and wants to leave?)

Is it really that hard to get some indication of interest before you get emotionally invested at the level of want-to-spend-the-rest-of-my-life-with-this-person?

(That's actually not a rhetorical question: I'm aromantic and have never had to deal with these feelings. I have rejected guys who seemed to be certain being aromantic+asexual was something I could turn off at will when presented with "But I love you!", though. No, there is no guarantee that the person you "fall in love with" will have compatible preferences, much less be interested in you specifically, it's a good idea to check these things!)

Yes. "Falling in love at first sight" is a thing that happens.

I don't think it's quite that bad - most men are perfectly capable of gracefully accepting "No", even if it hurts - although it's probably true that the influence of certain aspects of traditional masculinity can sometimes make rejecting men quite dangerous for the person doing the rejecting.

Yeah... rejection is a perpetratorless crime. And fortunately, I'm pretty sure most males realize that trying to force the other person to accept them will destroy what they're seeking in the first place, so they're smart enough not to do it. If there's a chance, they'll change themselves to better match the person they're seeking's desires.

It doesn't help that some people fall into the "playing hard to get" trope too. Don't do that either. Don't encourage people to be more aggressive on the off-chance that it's what you wanted in the first place. Give your consent if it's there, say it's not there if it isn't, and respect what the other person says, because they know what they want and what they like more than you do.

On the other hand, sometimes a guy does have most of what I want, and I'm aware that, being extremely objective-driven, guys tend to be open to reshaping/tweaking their lifestyles and personalities to achieve that goal. If I end up that goal, and someone's "Close, but not quite", I'm definitely going to try to see if I can get them to come the rest of the way. If they think I'm worth it, they'll make themselves worth it to me. Likewise, if there's a guy I find worthwhile, I'll change my own life to accommodate to try to appeal to him. There's some room for "Be yourself", but taking it to mean no room for change or self-improvement is a path to mediocrity and failure.

Look, if you've got person-specific hopes, dreams, and plans for the other person's life before you ask them out for the first time, you're wasting quite a lot of mental effort. That's also going to make rejection way worse.

You have absolutely no control over that mental effort, though. And, it can happen in less than a second.


Something to note about "Niceness": There's a difference between common courtesy and niceness. Common courtesy is something people do for each other all the time - it's minimal effort, and offset by reciprocated effort from others. However, a lot of people go above and beyond to be even nicer to someone. Ideally, two compatible people always reciprocate emotional reactions, but others require a bit of effort from one or the other to try and start it off.

While there are some sleazebags out there who are just trying to be nice to win a way in, there are others who go beyond to this 'extra-nice' as an attempt to help establish trust, and end up with some weird hybrid of selfish and selfless goals - yes, they want to make themselves happy, but if their partner's not happy about it, they're not either. this really happens when the pool of candidates grows larger than the pool of options. (And yes, I've found guys are largely interchangeable) Songs tend to give some context for emotional situations

[HisHolyAngel]

As a gay man, I know women don't want men at all. They're all secret lesbians. The CIA's behind it all.

[Gwynfrid]

I'm kind of curious now....what do you guys want from a girl physically?

For starters: I want her to disagree with this statement:

(And yes, I've found guys are largely interchangeable)

Yes, I know that's not physical. But this would be a dealbreaker for me, enough to ignore any and all physical attraction.

(No disrespect to you intended, Sartharina... In any case, I have been lucky enough to find a girl who disagrees with you and I've been married to her for many years).

[Aedilred]

Hmm, don't all of the Jane Austen books have the same plot which is basically Girl marries Guy after dealing with random problems and while trying to act like proper Victorian ladies while trying not to puke?

That's not a million miles off, although the actual plots do vary (and it's Georgian/Regency era, not Victorian), and often the problems are self-created rather than "random". P&P is probably the least plotful of the books. Persuasion isn't that far off a reversal of the "nice guy" thing, since it's the girl who has to win round a guy she previously rejected through good behaviour (and does).

[loopy]

As a male who was once socially awkward and later transitioned to having a fair amount of success with my preferred gender (women), here are some of my observations:

1. From my experiences with online dating, I have issues with getting girls with looks alone. This is fine by me, as I don't actually like the idea of someone only being appealed to me for physical reasons. Strangely enough, that idea translates across genders. So most of my success is in real life, where I can actually convey my personality.

2. I have never transitioned from purely platonic friendship to a relationship, not once. Every time I ended up getting together with a friend, it's because when we first met I was flirting with them and they were interested but otherwise unable to commit to anything at that point (for example, my best friend, who was unofficially in a relationship when we met, making it official a few days later.) We ended up getting together about a year later, after that relationship had long since ended, and it wasn't intentional.

3. I initiated contact with almost every woman that I have formed a friendship or relationship with. People like it when you show initiative, it means that you aren't afraid to go after what you want, and being wanted like that makes you feel good.
Whether we like it or not, women have been brought up being told that guys don't like it when women chase them. In addition, women generally get a huge amount of undesired attention anyway. My last girlfriend stopped using Facebook because every time she logged on she had twenty or thirty messages pop up in the first few minutes from other geeky guys who were trying to either flirt with her or 'be her friend.' I put that in quotation marks because when you have something other than platonic friendship in mind it's pretty easy to tell.

4. Practising social skills will take you a long way. In high school, I was an introvert with a stutter who could barely talk to girls at all, let alone get to know them in any meaningful way. High school sucked, it always does, but when I left I had the opportunity to start to reinvent myself. I made my first female friend when she hung out with me to avoid all the other guys hitting on her. She was awesome, but I made a decision never to pursue her because her friendship allowed me to work through a bunch of my issues.
Initially, social contact with women was difficult for me as I was terrified of rejection, of approaching someone new, of being embarrassed. My method to get past that (especially with people I didn't know, or in unfamiliar situations) was just to pretend you are someone else who isn't afraid to approach new people. I created a character in my head that had all of my knowledge, but the personality of several of my more socially adept friends. As time went on, I relied on that less and less. Another technique is essentially muting anxiety through repeated exposure. Start singing lessons, public speaking, acting, something where you are the centre of attention, trying to communicate a message, and have the potential to be embarrassed. Throw yourself into it until you get better. I'd imagine it'd be like starting to run for exercise. When you first start, you can make it a couple of hundred metres at most before you are gasping for air. Keep it up and you'll end up running marathons.

5. Know when you aren't wanted. As someone who has anxiety issues that are severe enough to cost me my last job, I have trouble making eye contact every so often. When this happens, I might lock eyes with a girl, look down at my feet (or away from her) and then look back. Now I look shifty or timid, so I've got a mark against me straight away. Approaching a woman while she's listening to music on her headphones, on public transport, while she's walking alone at night, or basically any situation where she can't politely move away from you is not cool. It's nothing personal, but she'll start to feel threatened by the idea of what you *could* be, rather than what you are, and won't want to make an issue of it a lot of the time in case that person you *could* be blows up at her and places her in risk of physical harm. So don't take this personally, but be aware of what her concerns may be. Also, no, there is no effective way of getting rid of that feeling until she's out of the situation, so trying to explain that you aren't going to hurt her won't help.

6. Make some platonic female friends. Keep them. Vow to yourself that you will never pursue them in a relationship. If you start falling for them, explain and apologize before cutting them off. Say that you are trying to become a better person, and that you are working on not seeing every girl as a potential partner, which has been difficult because they are the kind of person you could see yourself falling for. This gives the (albeit minor) chance for the person to say "oh yeah, I like you as well," but in most cases, it will leave them understanding what you are trying to achieve with no ill will. Find another female friend (there are plenty of awesome women out there) and start again.

7. Avoid diving in the deep end. I'm an affectionate person, and I really like caring about people. As such, when I do end up in relationships I tend to jump in a bit too quickly, leading to messy break-ups when misunderstandings start to pile up. Generally, when my lovestruck brain is telling me to contact a girl now, I'll stop and think about it and give myself a timeframe that seems about three or four times longer than I can cope with before more contact. It helps you have healthy relationships, just like it helps your new partner not feel smothered.

8. Go to a club (or pub, or parkour class, or somewhere where people actually talk to each other) and practice talking to people. Take someone with you, as a conversational wingman. Go and compliment someone's outfit, then if it starts to go awkward your friend can ride in and explain your mission of self improvement. Honestly, most people are socially awkward, and have enough of a grasp on that idea to realize that you practising to be better is not necessarily a good thing.

9. You are not entitled to a girlfriend. Sit down and make a list of reasons that you would date you. Think of reasons you wouldn't. Start working on fixing as much of the second list as is in your power to change. If you can't think of any positive reasons, I would probably look into seeing a psychologist, because that means you've got depression.

10. Don't take advantage. Don't try and get someone drunk, don't try and pounce when they are fresh from a breakup. Don't encourage someone to break up with their boyfriend because you are interested in them. Don't be that guy. Respect her limits, be a good guy, call a ride for her. Become known as a really decent dude, and half your job will be done before you even meet someone new.

Anyway, that's pretty much what I did to become more successful with women. Nowadays, the majority of my friends are women, which is a bit of a change. I've also become a lot more successful at interacting with men, because we are, after all, just different flavours of human.

I've read a lot in this thread, people giving good advice, then being ignored because feeling sorry for yourself is easier than resolving to make a change. I understand that, I've been through that myself. Hell, I've got Bipolar II and two forms of depression, a terminally ill parent and no job. Once you have the ability to interact with people, you'll always have it. No one can make you change, except you.

Hope this was useful. Adios!

EDIT: Made another point.

[Zrak]

All of that is details, though. The overarching shape of the plot is: boy meets girl, girl rejects boy, boy somehow demonstrates that he's a nice guy after all, girl agrees to marry boy.

I think there's a big difference between the male lead demonstrating and the male lead insisting, though, both in terms of the plot itself and its implications.

The precise manner in which this is accomplished is kind of beside the point, since everyone is always convinced their reasons for doing the stupid things they do are excellent and they're being super-subtle about it and they're totally doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and they're handling it in the best possible way. The point is that it's a demonstration of the basic principle at work (i.e. that a no isn't necessarily final no matter how it might appear and there is always room for things to change if she can just realise how great you really are).

I disagree. The precise manner in which it's accomplished is entirely the point, since the manner in which it's achieved is the difference between the message that things can change if she changes her mind and the much more problematic message that things can change if you change her mind. I don't think Pride and Prejudice qualifies as the kind of narrative Lissuo was talking about because Elizabeth maintains her agency throughout the narrative; she isn't a goal, she is a person with her own opinions who makes her own decisions.

[Zrak]

Jane Austen was not paid by the word.

[Stardrake]

I think Icewraith's made a valid point there, although I do think the exact examples are more tuned towards happy-naked-fun-time than towards forming a relationship (how many people are really going to turn someone down for a relationship because they're about to start a raid? That's more 'how about we go out some other night?' material.)

If you're given a reason for that rejection, and that reason is no longer in play, there may be another chance there. If something solid gives you a reason to think something might have changed or wasn't all as it previously seemed (ex: Elizabeth refusing to promise not to marry Darcy) then there may be another chance there. But the 'all things in moderation' rule applies - don't go looking for excuses to ask again, and don't be the person who's constantly asking 'how about now?' Women can and do change their minds (in some misogynist stereotypes, they're infamous for it...) but nobody feels good about someone who badgers them - save it for when there genuinely is a change in the circumstances.

[Skeppio]

Patriarchy, Coid. You don't want to be rapists, but society has turned you into a potential rapist. Like the friendliest pitbull could go from tail wagging to tearing your face off, so could any male just suddenly have the rapist switch flipped in his brain.
It's all mind control by the advertisements.

I dearly hope this is just sarcasm.

Please let this be sarcasm.

I'd hope so, but I've seen it said farr too many times in full seriousness, and consequently become too jaded, to brush it off as sarcasm.

[Coidzor]

As a male who was once socially awkward and later transitioned to having a fair amount of success with my preferred gender (women), here are some of my observations:

1. From my experiences with online dating, I have issues with getting girls with looks alone. This is fine by me, as I don't actually like the idea of someone only being appealed to me for physical reasons. Strangely enough, that idea translates across genders. So most of my success is in real life, where I can actually convey my personality.

Just being pretty isn't exactly interesting, after all.

2. I have never transitioned from purely platonic friendship to a relationship, not once. Every time I ended up getting together with a friend, it's because when we first met I was flirting with them and they were interested but otherwise unable to commit to anything at that point (for example, my best friend, who was unofficially in a relationship when we met, making it official a few days later.) We ended up getting together about a year later, after that relationship had long since ended, and it wasn't intentional.

I've done both, though generally friendships have only become relationships when there was always a dimension of playfulness. Though more commonly it's been acquaintances at the edge of my social orbit rather than proper friends or strangers.

All kinds of experiences out there and paths to said experiences.

3. I initiated contact with almost every woman that I have formed a friendship or relationship with. People like it when you show initiative, it means that you aren't afraid to go after what you want, and being wanted like that makes you feel good.
Whether we like it or not, women have been brought up being told that guys don't like it when women chase them. In addition, women generally get a huge amount of undesired attention anyway. My last girlfriend stopped using Facebook because every time she logged on she had twenty or thirty messages pop up in the first few minutes from other geeky guys who were trying to either flirt with her or 'be her friend.' I put that in quotation marks because when you have something other than platonic friendship in mind it's pretty easy to tell.

Everyone wants to feel wanted that wants to feel wanted, after all. Thankfully they've created what's basically a spam folder to separate out the random strangers, which was rather interesting, though that's still surprising that it would happen on Facebook rather than a dating website without somehow having gained some measure of notoriety or exposure anyway.

4. Practising social skills will take you a long way. In high school, I was an introvert with a stutter who could barely talk to girls at all, let alone get to know them in any meaningful way. High school sucked, it always does, but when I left I had the opportunity to start to reinvent myself. I made my first female friend when she hung out with me to avoid all the other guys hitting on her. She was awesome, but I made a decision never to pursue her because her friendship allowed me to work through a bunch of my issues.
Initially, social contact with women was difficult for me as I was terrified of rejection, of approaching someone new, of being embarrassed. My method to get past that (especially with people I didn't know, or in unfamiliar situations) was just to pretend you are someone else who isn't afraid to approach new people. I created a character in my head that had all of my knowledge, but the personality of several of my more socially adept friends. As time went on, I relied on that less and less. Another technique is essentially muting anxiety through repeated exposure. Start singing lessons, public speaking, acting, something where you are the centre of attention, trying to communicate a message, and have the potential to be embarrassed. Throw yourself into it until you get better. I'd imagine it'd be like starting to run for exercise. When you first start, you can make it a couple of hundred metres at most before you are gasping for air. Keep it up and you'll end up running marathons.

Good advice, all around.

5. Know when you aren't wanted. As someone who has anxiety issues that are severe enough to cost me my last job, I have trouble making eye contact every so often. When this happens, I might lock eyes with a girl, look down at my feet (or away from her) and then look back. Now I look shifty or timid, so I've got a mark against me straight away. Approaching a woman while she's listening to music on her headphones, on public transport, while she's walking alone at night, or basically any situation where she can't politely move away from you is not cool. It's nothing personal, but she'll start to feel threatened by the idea of what you *could* be, rather than what you are, and won't want to make an issue of it a lot of the time in case that person you *could* be blows up at her and places her in risk of physical harm. So don't take this personally, but be aware of what her concerns may be. Also, no, there is no effective way of getting rid of that feeling until she's out of the situation, so trying to explain that you aren't going to hurt her won't help.

Context is key, as is body language, aye. And empathy is useful beyond just trying to meet women.

6. Make some platonic female friends. Keep them. Vow to yourself that you will never pursue them in a relationship. If you start falling for them, explain and apologize before cutting them off. Say that you are trying to become a better person, and that you are working on not seeing every girl as a potential partner, which has been difficult because they are the kind of person you could see yourself falling for. This gives the (albeit minor) chance for the person to say "oh yeah, I like you as well," but in most cases, it will leave them understanding what you are trying to achieve with no ill will. Find another female friend (there are plenty of awesome women out there) and start again.

Being overly afraid to fall for a friend doesn't seem to do any favors, either, though, and even as reasonable a statement as this seems too close to being able to reinforce the "girlfriend zone."

7. Avoid diving in the deep end. I'm an affectionate person, and I really like caring about people. As such, when I do end up in relationships I tend to jump in a bit too quickly, leading to messy break-ups when misunderstandings start to pile up. Generally, when my lovestruck brain is telling me to contact a girl now, I'll stop and think about it and give myself a timeframe that seems about three or four times longer than I can cope with before more contact. It helps you have healthy relationships, just like it helps your new partner not feel smothered.

Definitely.

8. Go to a club (or pub, or parkour class, or somewhere where people actually talk to each other) and practice talking to people. Take someone with you, as a conversational wingman. Go and compliment someone's outfit, then if it starts to go awkward your friend can ride in and explain your mission of self improvement. Honestly, most people are socially awkward, and have enough of a grasp on that idea to realize that you practising to be better is not necessarily a good thing.

I'd heard every part of that except for the last part about them explaining the mission of self-improvement as a rescue-exit. Interesting. Though I'm not quite sure I'm reading your ending here correctly, would you mind restating it?

9. You are not entitled to a girlfriend. Sit down and make a list of reasons that you would date you. Think of reasons you wouldn't. Start working on fixing as much of the second list as is in your power to change. If you can't think of any positive reasons, I would probably look into seeing a psychologist, because that means you've got depression.

Agreed. Especially because in the unlikely event that one got a relationship while in that place, that kind of depression poisons interpersonal relationships something fierce.

10. Don't take advantage. Don't try and get someone drunk, don't try and pounce when they are fresh from a breakup. Don't encourage someone to break up with their boyfriend because you are interested in them. Don't be that guy. Respect her limits, be a good guy, call a ride for her. Become known as a really decent dude, and half your job will be done before you even meet someone new.

The world would be a far, far better place if this were ubiquitous.

I've read a lot in this thread, people giving good advice, then being ignored because feeling sorry for yourself is easier than resolving to make a change. I understand that, I've been through that myself. Hell, I've got Bipolar II and two forms of depression, a terminally ill parent and no job. Once you have the ability to interact with people, you'll always have it. No one can make you change, except you.

I think Icewraith's made a valid point there, although I do think the exact examples are more tuned towards happy-naked-fun-time than towards forming a relationship (how many people are really going to turn someone down for a relationship because they're about to start a raid? That's more 'how about we go out some other night?' material.)

If you're given a reason for that rejection, and that reason is no longer in play, there may be another chance there. If something solid gives you a reason to think something might have changed or wasn't all as it previously seemed (ex: Elizabeth refusing to promise not to marry Darcy) then there may be another chance there. But the 'all things in moderation' rule applies - don't go looking for excuses to ask again, and don't be the person who's constantly asking 'how about now?' Women can and do change their minds (in some misogynist stereotypes, they're infamous for it...) but nobody feels good about someone who badgers them - save it for when there genuinely is a change in the circumstances.

I think at least part of that is because "No Means No," comes up in the context of consent in sexuality fairly often, so linking it up with sexual dynamics came to mind first. If I'm being charitable, anyway. If I were being less charitable I'd say it was about the unconscious linkage between sexuality and romantic relationships many people have. If I were actively being uncharitable I'd just have a string of asterisks.

In general it's better to just not and to not bother with hoping either, so that the rare exception that may or may not even crop up in one's lifetime is a pleasant surprise.

I dearly hope this is just sarcasm.

Please let this be sarcasm.

At this point I'm more concerned about being construed as justifying wrongheadedness, wrongdoing, or out-and-out cowardice, so don't worry about it on my behalf.

And slightly lost as to where the Pride and Prejudice argument is going, especially because I lost track of whether anyone was actually trying to use it to justify bad behavior.

[Serpentine]

I'd just like to throw in one little point, since apparently there's an honest-to-god textbook Nice Guy here now: A friend of mine once said "nice is what you call someone when you can't think of anything else good about them". If the best thing you can say about yourself is that you're a "nice guy", then you are offering absolutely nothing to no one. You meet the bare minimum requirements to not be a bad person. That is no reason for someone to be interested in you at all; it barely meets the requirements most people have for their acquaintances.
Women - no, people don't want "nice people". They want good people, kind people, confident people, people with hobbies or interests or class or style or knowledge or opinions or goals or skills or any other combination of all sorts of potential traits or features of varying priority for which every person will have their own list, many of which they won't know about until they find someone who has, or doesn't have, them.
If you think it is or should be adequate to just be "nice", you've already failed.

[Anuan]

I'd just like to throw in one little point, since apparently there's an honest-to-god textbook Nice Guy here now: A friend of mine once said "nice is what you call someone when you can't think of anything else good about them". If the best thing you can say about yourself is that you're a "nice guy", then you are offering absolutely nothing to no one. You meet the bare minimum requirements to not be a bad person. That is no reason for someone to be interested in you at all; it barely meets the requirements most people have for their acquaintances.
Women - no, people don't want "nice people". They want good people, kind people, confident people, people with hobbies or interests or class or style or knowledge or opinions or goals or skills or any other combination of all sorts of potential traits or features of varying priority for which every person will have their own list, many of which they won't know about until they find someone who has, or doesn't have, them.
If you think it is or should be adequate to just be "nice", you've already failed.

Funnily enough I came here to say exactly this. Plus that the friendzone is like ghosts and skellingtums; it doesn't even real.

Wanna know how to ask out women? Ask a woman out. Wanna know how to get the girl you want? Move on when the girl you're infatuated with doesn't want you, and fine someone that does.

The main thing you need to do though, is be worth having.

[Mauve Shirt]

1. I dearly hope all the "women don't like me and therefore they're all shallow bitches" is just as sarcastic as my previous post.
2. Anuan and Serp are the best people ever. You don't get kudos for meeting the minimum requirements for being a decent human being. To paraphrase an article that you all would hate, there's a guy just as nice as you sitting right around the corner, but he can play the guitar.
Personally I don't date people who aren't actively pursuing their life's goals and/or haven't already succeeded. Improve yourself if you don't want to be rejected. And that is NOT sarcasm.