Worf vs Solo

[grolim]

Who's to say there was a kitchen on Voyager? They probably made an unused or low use space into a kitchen once they got stranded and had to ration replicator power. The idea of a place on a Federation ship where food is routinely prepared like that is probably unusual to them. In the shows they showed some of the characters cooking for their significant others or each other and it was treated like actually preparing a meal was a rare and unusual thing. So it is doubtful they have standard protocols for kitchens on starships and cross checking what you are cooking to see if it will harm the being tested and new technology of neural packs. Neelix did not take over cooking for the crew, they made a kitchen and had to set everything up. In Enterprise is the first time we see a mess hall with food being prepared. Even in ToS in their mess hall people went and got their food from the replicators and just ate together.

[GloatingSwine]

Who's to say there was a kitchen on Voyager? They probably made an unused or low use space into a kitchen once they got stranded and had to ration replicator power.

It was part of the mess hall that Neelix set up as his personal feifdom. Even with replicators though it's not unreasonable to expect starship mess halls to have traditional food preparation equipment, even if it's nowhere near as much as a modern vessel with similar crew would need because of replicators (and indeed, the same thing was shown at least once in DS9 in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, a starship using part of its mess hall as a traditional kitchen).

[Flickerdart]

Cooking seems like one of those things that people in a replicator-powered society would do only for fun. As a recreational activity, it would take place on the holodeck, which is what it's there for unless I remember incorrectly.

[Gnoman]

It would also be important if you didn't have the replicator pattern for a specific dish, dislike the perfection of the replicator, or can't afford the absolutely insane energy requirements that one would need even assuming that you are building the result by rearranging existing matter instead of generating the matter on-the-fly.

[Flickerdart]

absolutely insane energy requirements

Given that replicators are casually used for food on all Federation starships, one would imagine that this drain on energy is no significance for antimatter power plants.

[Mando Knight]

If the replicator is generating the Tea, Earl Grey, Hot out of pure energy, then it's probably expending about a quarter kilo of antimatter in the operation just to get the energy to create the mass.

Thus, the replicator, if the Federation is going to realistically use those spindly warp cores at all while the ship crews use their magical matter creators for their three square meals every day, has to be more like an alchemical transporter: beam up raw material, and transmute it into the desired form on the receiver pad. The system also has to consume much less energy than actually passes through the operation, since consuming 90 petajoules (25 terawatt-hours) for a one-kilo meal is just extravagantly wasteful no matter how you slice it.

In short, the replicator and the transporter both have to be ridiculously efficient, super-magical operations if people can use them all day, every day, without them being a serious drain on the ship systems, particularly if the Federation uses matter/antimatter reactions to fuel the starship.

[Kalmageddon]

Cooking seems like one of those things that people in a replicator-powered society would do only for fun. As a recreational activity, it would take place on the holodeck, which is what it's there for unless I remember incorrectly.

Actually, cooking is also done for a more authentic experience. There are restaurants that prepare everything from raw materials the old fashoned way, precisely because it's a unique experience to eat something, well, unique. It's also a form of luxury in those part of the quadrant that still use currency, like for the Ferengi. Also, on DS9 Sisko used to cook for his son and his friends, or on special occasions, and he grew all the ingredients himself in the garden of the station, with no replicators involved.
The holodeck could be used for simulated cooking, but since the holodeck is all replicators, holograms and force fields, cooking in the holodeck would actually be the same as simply using a replicator in the first place, so it would probably defeat the point of the exercise, unless the point was just messing around with food pretending to be a chef.

[Traab]

If the replicator is generating the Tea, Earl Grey, Hot out of pure energy, then it's probably expending about a quarter kilo of antimatter in the operation just to get the energy to create the mass.

Thus, the replicator, if the Federation is going to realistically use those spindly warp cores at all while the ship crews use their magical matter creators for their three square meals every day, has to be more like an alchemical transporter: beam up raw material, and transmute it into the desired form on the receiver pad. The system also has to consume much less energy than actually passes through the operation, since consuming 90 petajoules (25 terawatt-hours) for a one-kilo meal is just extravagantly wasteful no matter how you slice it.

In short, the replicator and the transporter both have to be ridiculously efficient, super-magical operations if people can use them all day, every day, without them being a serious drain on the ship systems, particularly if the Federation uses matter/antimatter reactions to fuel the starship.

You know, I could have sworn I recalled hearing someone on one of the shows talking about how they basically recycle everything and use the replicators exactly like that, as a form of alchemy to rebuild the proteins and whatnot into the desired form. Also, aside from the captain, we rarely see the replicators being used often and casually. So maybe Picard is just enjoying his captains privileges. The low rankers running in the background may be lucky to get a single replicator ration a month for a cup of hot chocolate, or have to do a communal use of the holodeck, while security chief worf gets to run thrice weekly solo training exercises on the holodeck, with the 5th batleth replicated for him today. (Flimsy things keep breaking dangit)

[Chen]

Thus, the replicator, if the Federation is going to realistically use those spindly warp cores at all while the ship crews use their magical matter creators for their three square meals every day, has to be more like an alchemical transporter: beam up raw material, and transmute it into the desired form on the receiver pad.

This is exactly what Star Trek replicator is. It takes various bulk stores of matter they have and it converts it to other matter. It's a lower resolution transporter.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Replicator

[Flickerdart]

Actually, cooking is also done for a more authentic experience. There are restaurants that prepare everything from raw materials the old fashoned way, precisely because it's a unique experience to eat something, well, unique. It's also a form of luxury in those part of the quadrant that still use currency, like for the Ferengi. Also, on DS9 Sisko used to cook for his son and his friends, or on special occasions, and he grew all the ingredients himself in the garden of the station, with no replicators involved.
The holodeck could be used for simulated cooking, but since the holodeck is all replicators, holograms and force fields, cooking in the holodeck would actually be the same as simply using a replicator in the first place, so it would probably defeat the point of the exercise, unless the point was just messing around with food pretending to be a chef.

"Luxury" isn't really a good enough reason to devote space on a ship to something, especially if that something is a potential biohazard.

[Kalmageddon]

"Luxury" isn't really a good enough reason to devote space on a ship to something, especially if that something is a potential biohazard.

What?

[Mando Knight]

"Luxury" isn't really a good enough reason to devote space on a ship to something, especially if that something is a potential biohazard.

It's totally a good enough reason if you're the kind of Federation that lets its crews have parrises squares teams or replicate as many caffeinated beverages as they want.

See also: holodecks designed so that they run on a separate system so that power problems don't cut into officers' sacred holonovel times.

[Flickerdart]

It's totally a good enough reason if you're the kind of Federation that lets its crews have parrises squares teams or replicate as many caffeinated beverages as they want.

See also: holodecks designed so that they run on a separate system so that power problems don't cut into officers' sacred holonovel times.

That's the thing though - they already have holodecks and replicators! Between the two, they provide infinite possibilities for leisure in a very modest space. Adding an entire kitchen on top of that would be extremely wasteful.

[Wardog]

The idea of a place on a Federation ship where food is routinely prepared like that is probably unusual to them. In the shows they showed some of the characters cooking for their significant others or each other and it was treated like actually preparing a meal was a rare and unusual thing. So it is doubtful they have standard protocols for kitchens on starships and cross checking what you are cooking to see if it will harm the being tested and new technology of neural packs.

Regardless of how common cooking is, I would have thought regulations regarding bringing alien biomatter on board the ship would (or at least should) be of critical importance. Regardless of whether that biomatter is a scientific sample, an alien ambassador, something someone has trodden in, or exotic foodstuffs.

IRL, Australia has incredibly strict rules regarding importing food from other parts of Earth. One would think that an interstellar civilization would have similar rules, even if they are limited to "don't do it". And they also ought to design their systems to withstand someone breaking the rules.



Also, just to comment on an earlier post:

No, Scotty was cleverer than that. He changed the labels on the dial so that 80% said 100% but he could turn it up higher when he needed to.

Our warp drive goes up to 11!

[Prime32]

Our warp drive goes up to 11!

Real engines generally can go up to 11; 100% is just the highest you can push them without tearing them apart. That said, there's a conversation between LaForge and Scotty that goes something like "The technical manual says not to turn the engines that high, they'll explode." "Laddy, I wrote that manual."

[grolim]

Of course, how else could he get his reputation as a miracle worker.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Defiant's weapons can't even hurt the Falcon, the Defiant can't catch the Falcon, and the Falcon could blow it out of the sky with ease if Captain Solo had a mind to. What's the question here?

[GloatingSwine]

That's the thing though - they already have holodecks and replicators! Between the two, they provide infinite possibilities for leisure in a very modest space. Adding an entire kitchen on top of that would be extremely wasteful.

The flagship of the Federation's fleet is fitted more like a luxury cruiser than a working vessel of any sort. "Wasteful" means something different to these people.

[BWR]

The Defiant's weapons can't even hurt the Falcon, the Defiant can't catch the Falcon, and the Falcon could blow it out of the sky with ease if Captain Solo had a mind to. What's the question here?

Some people dispute this, and hard numbers and facts being so hard to come by, since even the previously canon statements are now non-canon (and widely questioned even when they were canon) and on-screen statements and visuals are contradictory, we tend to choose which side we like and question the validity of 'evidence' from those with opposing views while only rarely admitting our own position is not quite as secure as we would like.

[Traab]

The flagship of the Federation's fleet is fitted more like a luxury cruiser than a working vessel of any sort. "Wasteful" means something different to these people.

Its a luxury cruiser because it has a holodeck? Really? When you are going on long term missions like the various star trek flagships go on, you have to include some form of entertainment to avoid going crazy with cabin fever. A holodeck is the most economical option because it can be used for anything. Movies, bowling, pool, swimming, martial arts, whatever. All in one neat package.

[GloatingSwine]

Its a luxury cruiser because it has a holodeck? Really? When you are going on long term missions like the various star trek flagships go on, you have to include some form of entertainment to avoid going crazy with cabin fever. A holodeck is the most economical option because it can be used for anything. Movies, bowling, pool, swimming, martial arts, whatever. All in one neat package.

No, not because it has a holodeck, because it has staterooms that would be at home on a luxury cruiser for basically all crew no matter their rating and hallways that three people can comfortably walk abreast down for basically no useful reason (crew spaces on ships are usually much narrower than that even on luxury vessels where the "public" spaces are much wider, and in space all that internal volume has to have life support, gravity, etc as well), it devotes a massive amount of internal volume to crew comfort of many shades and stripes, going as far as to have families and children on board at all times including specialist day care and school facilities for them.

This is a ship which has the ship's counsellor, someone who should be in a wee office wedged in wherever there's room, on the bridge at the right hand of the captain at all times.

Practicality is not foremost in the Federation's minds when designing starships. I wouldn't be surprised if every damn deck had a kitchen!

[Flickerdart]

Practicality is not foremost in the Federation's minds when designing starships. I wouldn't be surprised if every damn deck had a kitchen!

Kitchens would take away space from extra-wide hallways. No Federation vessel could bear to narrow them down!

[Traab]

No, not because it has a holodeck, because it has staterooms that would be at home on a luxury cruiser for basically all crew no matter their rating and hallways that three people can comfortably walk abreast down for basically no useful reason (crew spaces on ships are usually much narrower than that even on luxury vessels where the "public" spaces are much wider, and in space all that internal volume has to have life support, gravity, etc as well), it devotes a massive amount of internal volume to crew comfort of many shades and stripes, going as far as to have families and children on board at all times including specialist day care and school facilities for them.

This is a ship which has the ship's counsellor, someone who should be in a wee office wedged in wherever there's room, on the bridge at the right hand of the captain at all times.

Practicality is not foremost in the Federation's minds when designing starships. I wouldn't be surprised if every damn deck had a kitchen!

Remember they live in what amounts to a utopian existence. There is no real reason to make the ship smaller, it serves no real purpose on a space ship built in outer space. Its not like they have to launch them from cape kennedy or something. And the ships councilor is only there because she is some super empath, able to read emotional states from several hundred thousand kilometers away. (Seriously, have you ever considered how insane that is? She can read emotions from ORBIT) She sits there because she is a massive diplomatic tool that comes in handy in anything but a full scale battle. (And even sometimes then) Its not some puff position there so the bridge crew gets some eye candy now that Tasha Yar is dead. She has saved the enterprise on numerous occasions specifically because of who and what she is.

I do admit the family thing is stupid. Hell, even picard was a little freaked out the first time he had to deal with kids. Im wondering if it was just added as an excuse to bring in crusher maybe? It made sense on DS9, thats an entire space station, its own contained city basically. But anyways, a lot of the extra stuff is likely put in because comfort is a necessity. Keep in mind, this enterprise FREQUENTLY has diplomatic meetings on board. Ambassadors with large escorts, who need to be pampered as much as is reasonable, quarreling factions that need to be mediated, and of course, showing how awesome the federation is by virtue of how incredible its flagship is. But considering everyone went to ten forward for drinks and relaxing and chatting with their friends, its unlikely they had a galley on each deck or something.

Basically, picards enterprise was a peacekeeping vessel, a diplomatic envoy, a research vessel, and a general trouble shooter for the entire quadrant of space. It cant be expected to be a space faring version of a battleship.

[GloatingSwine]

Remember they live in what amounts to a utopian existence. There is no real reason to make the ship smaller, it serves no real purpose on a space ship built in outer space. Its not like they have to launch them from cape kennedy or something.

Apart from, y'know, all the ways it costs mass and energy making the whole ship bigger. They have to have air, heat, and gravity, the ship has to move more mass every time it moves (which in ST terms means requires stronger subspace field)

And the ships councilor is only there because she is some super empath, able to read emotional states from several hundred thousand kilometers away. (Seriously, have you ever considered how insane that is? She can read emotions from ORBIT) She sits there because she is a massive diplomatic tool that comes in handy in anything but a full scale battle. (And even sometimes then) Its not some puff position there so the bridge crew gets some eye candy now that Tasha Yar is dead. She has saved the enterprise on numerous occasions specifically because of who and what she is.

However more often than not she just states the bleedin' obvious.

Basically, picards enterprise was a peacekeeping vessel, a diplomatic envoy, a research vessel, and a general trouble shooter for the entire quadrant of space. It cant be expected to be a space faring version of a battleship.

However, that's exactly what the Galaxy class was used for when the Dominion War came around. (and it wasn't just the flagship that wasted space on families etc. When the Odyssey was sent into the gamma quadrant in The Jem'Hadar they all had to be transferred off at DS9 because it might be dangerous.)

They were space battleships, they were intended to be the centrepiece of the Federation's military as well as all the other uses (because the Federation was still basically in a tense cold war with the Romulans when the Galaxy was launched, they were designed with the case in mind that they would have to fight equivalent ships which were more explicitly warships like the D'deridex)

[Traab]

Apart from, y'know, all the ways it costs mass and energy making the whole ship bigger. They have to have air, heat, and gravity, the ship has to move more mass every time it moves (which in ST terms means requires stronger subspace field)



However more often than not she just states the bleedin' obvious.




However, that's exactly what the Galaxy class was used for when the Dominion War came around. (and it wasn't just the flagship that wasted space on families etc. When the Odyssey was sent into the gamma quadrant in The Jem'Hadar they all had to be transferred off at DS9 because it might be dangerous.)

They were space battleships, they were intended to be the centrepiece of the Federation's military as well as all the other uses (because the Federation was still basically in a tense cold war with the Romulans when the Galaxy was launched, they were designed with the case in mind that they would have to fight equivalent ships which were more explicitly warships like the D'deridex)

But they werent JUST warships, so they had to be built for the other uses as well. You dont put an allied ambassador 6 decks down into the cargo hold with no windows and a cot to sleep on, you dont impress potential allies by showing them a cramped vessel with no room in it to do anything but scurry to the next work station. As for power supplies, obviously that wasnt an issue. However their warp core works, it clearly produces more energy than they need to maintain all that extra space, so why not use it? Voyager had to be stuck 80 years away from friendly territory before even the slightest bit of rationing was implemented. Did Picards ship ever have to go to a resupply station other than for repairs after a major FUBAR scenario took place?

As for Troi, yes, a lot of the time it was obvious, but in diplomacy, being able to confirm that the snarling bastard threatening to kill you all isnt bluffing and is serious in his convictions is just as important as knowing when he is lying and trying to save face with his crew.

[Renegade Paladin]

Some people dispute this, and hard numbers and facts being so hard to come by, since even the previously canon statements are now non-canon (and widely questioned even when they were canon) and on-screen statements and visuals are contradictory, we tend to choose which side we like and question the validity of 'evidence' from those with opposing views while only rarely admitting our own position is not quite as secure as we would like.

People who either didn't pay attention to the shows and movies or didn't put together the meaning of what they saw dispute this. TNG Pegasus clearly establishes that a main line warship of the Federation can't do with its full armament what Imperial destroyers do with contemptuous ease using their secondary gun batteries (and that the Falcon can survive those same shots). All of Voyager establishes that Federation warp drives take seventy years to cross the galaxy, something that Empire Strikes Back makes abundantly clear that hyperdrive can do in a day. The ICS figures aren't necessary; this is basic analysis of the movies and television shows, and it says that the Defiant can't catch the Millennium Falcon and couldn't hurt it if it did.

And for the record, I like Star Trek just fine. That doesn't mean I ignore the evidence of my eyes to force myself to believe things that are not true about it's technology's capabilities; that's just absurd.

[Gnoman]

The trouble with Trek is that the writers had a habit of casually throwing in numbers and measurements that sounded cool without really understanding what they meant. This lead to weapons stated on-screen to have massive yields having an actual effect no greater than a simple atomic bomb or less.

[GloatingSwine]

But they werent JUST warships, so they had to be built for the other uses as well. You dont put an allied ambassador 6 decks down into the cargo hold with no windows and a cot to sleep on, you dont impress potential allies by showing them a cramped vessel with no room in it to do anything but scurry to the next work station.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you need to build the whole ship like that, only the bits that ambassadors and potential allies are going to see. (PS this would not include any kind of engineering or tactical stations which would invariably be classified).

As for power supplies, obviously that wasnt an issue. However their warp core works, it clearly produces more energy than they need to maintain all that extra space, so why not use it?

But why not use it for better shields, faster engines, more phaser banks, y'know, things that will actually help the ship do its job better. (Bear in mind at this point that the Enterprise D, pride of the Federation fleet, was ruined by a Klingon Bird of Prey, a design over a hundred years old at that point and a model which was explicitly retired from service because it was defective, hence its availability to a couple of rebels. Bet you wish your corridors were a bit narrower and your shields a bit tougher now, eh Riker?)

The trouble with Trek is that the writers had a habit of casually throwing in numbers and measurements that sounded cool without really understanding what they meant. This lead to weapons stated on-screen to have massive yields having an actual effect no greater than a simple atomic bomb or less.

That's why you operate on the fundamental principle that what you see on screen is what happened. No matter what people say, what you see is what you get.

(PS: A while back people were talking about phasers propagating at light speed. This is clearly false, This video shows many of the times in TNG that the Enterprise uses its phasers, they always have a visible travel time (something like 20-30 kps, when the E-D is being held by the borg cube it is roughly its own length away from the cube, and the phaser beam takes a couple of frames to get to the cube), and occasionally even miss targets the size of the Enterprise at ranges so close the ships have to manoeuvre to avoid collision! (0:32).)

[Traab]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you need to build the whole ship like that, only the bits that ambassadors and potential allies are going to see. (PS this would not include any kind of engineering or tactical stations which would invariably be classified).



But why not use it for better shields, faster engines, more phaser banks, y'know, things that will actually help the ship do its job better. (Bear in mind at this point that the Enterprise D, pride of the Federation fleet, was ruined by a Klingon Bird of Prey, a design over a hundred years old at that point and a model which was explicitly retired from service because it was defective, hence its availability to a couple of rebels. Bet you wish your corridors were a bit narrower and your shields a bit tougher now, eh Riker?)



That's why you operate on the fundamental principle that what you see on screen is what happened. No matter what people say, what you see is what you get.

(PS: A while back people were talking about phasers propagating at light speed. This is clearly false, This video shows many of the times in TNG that the Enterprise uses its phasers, they always have a visible travel time (something like 20-30 kps, when the E-D is being held by the borg cube it is roughly its own length away from the cube, and the phaser beam takes a couple of frames to get to the cube), and occasionally even miss targets the size of the Enterprise at ranges so close the ships have to manoeuvre to avoid collision! (0:32).)

I really dont see why not. I mean, first off, its rather hard to apply reality to a sci fi show, but maybe their shields were as tough as they could make them. And as for more torpedo tubes and phaser banks, we dont know how much energy they use up, or how they interact with the other ship systems. There must be a reason why they dont just carpet every external inch of the ship not taken up by sensors with phaser banks and torpedo tubes so you have a caltrop design where no matter where you are facing, there are lethal weapons pointed at you.

Better engines? Couldnt they already hit the top cruising speed possible with warp engines? I recall a few episodes where they went deep in the 9. whatever range trying to get somewhere fast. I suppose being able to hit 9.994 instead of 9.992 would be worth it at some point, but not to the point of turning your vessel into a cramped metal tube to make it happen.

Personally, I look at the design from a standpoint of, "We dont have to make our federation troops miserable with cramped quarters, so why should we?" The have the current best federation weapons shields and engines already, and they still have x amount of extra power before they break even with the max output of the warp core. Why not use it to install some comforts for the crew? Why not use it to show off a bit? "We are so awesome, we can install a damn holodeck with all the extra power we have, and still not lose a single % from our offense, defense, or travel speed. We can quarter every crew member in a three room apartment large enough to host small parties with a half dozen people easy, put in hallways where 3 people can walk abreast without bumping into each other, and make our various command and tactical center so spacious, there is room for twice as many people as need to be there at any given point in time and not lose any potential benefit during the course of our duty."

Personally to me, that makes a powerful statement.

[Gnoman]

Don't forget that the Bird of Prey that destroyed the Enterprise D was able, via absurdly good intel, to shoot through the shields, and (because the attack was a complete surprise) take precise aim with the first shot to do maximum damage. That's enough of an edge to bypass a far greater tech disparity than the two ships in question have, and says little about the Galaxy-class ships' combat capabilities under more normal circumstances. Not to mention, of course, that the Galaxy ships aren't warships. They're long-range research/exploration/diplomatic/courier ships that include a substantial self-defense capability. It is explicitly stated in DS9 that the Defiant was the first dedicated warship built by Starfleet. Ever.