Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[TechnOkami]

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Yeah, I get that it is a joke now. I considered the same thing about Coldhands. How could he have retained his sentience? Would being a Stark give you magical abilities related to ice magic in the same way that being a Targaryen sometimes gives you fire resistance? Just like Targaryens are related to fire dragons through Valryia, could the Stark's be related to the ice dragons somehow?

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I doubt that part about the Starks very much. Other than the fact that they live in the north and thus are more prepared for winter conditions due to having lived in it for, like, ever, the only magical aptitude that has been shown is a kind of animal kinship between the Stark Children and their Wolves (I have an idea that the death of Sansa's Lady helps to cut off a connection which helped ground her in a way, which is why she is more readily acceptable to being groomed by Littlefinger into his little helper (and chesspiece of the North) as well as Bran's connection to Naturestuff, Greensight, controlling Summer & Hodor, getting more levels in Druid, etc., Dragons have been wholly the Targaryen's shtick for all of the book so far. I sincerely doubt we're going to see anything like an ice dragon happen.

[SowZ]

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I doubt that part about the Starks very much. Other than the fact that they live in the north and thus are more prepared for winter conditions due to having lived in it for, like, ever, the only magical aptitude that has been shown is a kind of animal kinship between the Stark Children and their Wolves (I have an idea that the death of Sansa's Lady helps to cut off a connection which helped ground her in a way, which is why she is more readily acceptable to being groomed by Littlefinger into his little helper (and chesspiece of the North) as well as Bran's connection to Naturestuff, Greensight, controlling Summer & Hodor, getting more levels in Druid, etc., Dragons have been wholly the Targaryen's shtick for all of the book so far. I sincerely doubt we're going to see anything like an ice dragon happen.

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I'm not making them up. Ice dragons are in the lore, they live beyond the wall. It is possible they died off but both types of dragons are in Westeros.

[Shadow of the Sun]

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I'm not making them up. Ice dragons are in the lore, they live beyond the wall. It is possible they died off but both types of dragons are in Westeros.

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Actually, the books never confirm whether they actually exist or not. We just know that Old Nan told stories of them.

[SowZ]

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Actually, the books never confirm whether they actually exist or not. We just know that Old Nan told stories of them.

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Have you read the lore book on Ice and Fire recently released? It confirms or denies a lot of this kind of thing. Anyway, I think it's very likely they died out and will stay dead. There's been no build up to ice dragons so it would come out of left field to have Dany's dragons, who have been built up since book one, battle a new type of dragon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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Have you read the lore book on Ice and Fire recently released? It confirms or denies a lot of this kind of thing. Anyway, I think it's very likely they died out and will stay dead. There's been no build up to ice dragons so it would come out of left field to have Dany's dragons, who have been built up since book one, battle a new type of dragon.

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I have been ploughing through the History of Westeros book that recently came out, and I don't remember seeing anything confirming, denying or even acknowledging such thing as ice dragons. That said, I would say that, if anything, I'd expect that ice dragons is what happens to regular dragons when they encounter and lose a fight with the Others. And there are two Targaryen Dragons unaccounted for at the end of the Dance of Dragons which may very well have ended up in the North. The existence of ice dragons may not fit the established mythos of the books, but the missing Targaryen dragons + Others would not be left field at all.

Grey Wolf

[An Enemy Spy]

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I have been ploughing through the History of Westeros book that recently came out, and I don't remember seeing anything confirming, denying or even acknowledging such thing as ice dragons. That said, I would say that, if anything, I'd expect that ice dragons is what happens to regular dragons when they encounter and lose a fight with the Others. And there are two Targaryen Dragons unaccounted for at the end of the Dance of Dragons which may very well have ended up in the North. The existence of ice dragons may not fit the established mythos of the books, but the missing Targaryen dragons + Others would not be left field at all.

Grey Wolf

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If you're referring to Rhaegal and Viserion, they're still in Meereen, living on top of the pyramids.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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If you're referring to Rhaegal and Viserion, they're still in Meereen, living on top of the pyramids.

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Wrong Dance, I'm afraid. I'm referring to the Targaryen civil war that killed off the last of the Targaryen dragons, not the book. Turns out, two or three did survive, the war and mob killings , but did go feral by the end of the war, and disappeared from history. Since it is hard for a dragon to not be seen, they'd almost have to go off into a desolate, empty land, which fits the land beyond the wall far better than anywhere else except possibly the southern jungles.

Grey Wolf

[Emperordaniel]

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Wrong Dance, I'm afraid. I'm referring to the Targaryen civil war that killed off the last of the Targaryen dragons, not the book. Turns out, two or three did survive, the war and mob killings , but did go feral by the end of the war, and disappeared from history. Since it is hard for a dragon to not be seen, they'd almost have to go off into a desolate, empty land, which fits the land beyond the wall far better than anywhere else except possibly the southern jungles.

Grey Wolf

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Didn't one of the lost dragons from the Dance become the origin for the Burned Men's practice of burning off body parts to prove their manhood?

Also, I think one or two dragons did survive the war at first, since it's been stated that they died out during the reign of Aegon "Dragonbane" III, who only began his reign after the peace was made between the two Targaryen factions.

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
A Clash of Kings part seven! ~600-~700!

So there’s a lot going on in this section. I’m going to return to the chapter-by-chapter format here. I don’t really have too much to say about the section as a whole, so I’m just going to get to it.

Davos: So here we have it. This chapter is interesting in its own right, but the final scene overwhelms. I mean, what? Melisandre’s magic bears some discussion here. So, her magic here takes the form of this monstrous, shadowy birth. It’s extremely disturbing, but now we know more of the process by which Stannis kills his enemies. Davos recognizes the shadow which emerges from Melisandre, which I take for the moment to mean that the shadow belongs to King Stannis.

This makes me wonder, then, just what it is Stannis needs his brother’s bastards for. Melisandre speaks as a priestess of the Lord of Light, but her talk of shadows make me wonder if that’s a front – perhaps she truly serves the god of darkness. I’m thinking there’s a dark sort of sacrificial power at play here. Perhaps Stannis needs the bastards to fuel this method of assassination? Life for life, blood for blood and all that.

I remember the last time birth was involved in the story – Dany’s birth, the birth of dragons. Pregnancy is abjected in this story so far – I’m thinking Kristeva and her theory, the abjection of the mother in order to create one’s own identity. It applies even more strongly in this case, as Stannis employs Melisandre and her uncanny, unheimlich, disturbing form of motherhood as the tool by which he establishes his identity as king.

On Davos, I note that he makes a distinction between the gods and Stannis’s god – he doesn’t hold the Lord of Light as his god. That makes for a point of potential division between Stannis and Davos in the future.

Jon: Not much to say here. He’s going to be part of a ranging party, and since he’s the viewpoint character the interesting things are going to happen to his party. I’m curious, though. If Benjen is alive, I wonder where he is. Could he have taken up with Mance Rayder?

Tyrion: He’s bringing Shae closer to him, and we got a bit out of Varys about magic. Interesting. Not sure what’s going to come of this, though. Tyrion bringing Shae closer to him seems like a good way to hasten her imminent death, though.

Catelyn: Brienne loves song. The Tullys are holding, and they even sent Gregor Clegane running. I don’t imagine this luck can hold. Great strategy here, though.

Bran: Theon has Winterfell now. So set the countdown to how this bites him in the ass. I’m imagining Shaggydog or Summer doing the honors – so literal biting in the ass region or thereabouts. Theon can have his fun for now, but he’s not going to enjoy it for too long.

Arya: Okay, this and the next chapter are big, big mysteries in some way. Arya’s third was inspired, and weasel soup is great. I was expecting poisoning of the garrison, but this was cleverer by half. Now Harrenhal is in the hands of the northmen.

Arya’s smart enough not to blow her cover yet. She does not want to be known. She needs to not be known yet. If the men at Harrenhal know who she is, that will only make Harrenhal an even bigger target for Robb’s enemies than it is if he simply controls the territory.

So, that brings us to the business with Jaqen H’ghar. He comes in the godswood, and he says to Arya that “A god has his due.” Possibilities – he’s some kind of great sorcerer, he’s one of the old gods, he’s just a weird guy with some tricks. Not sure where I am right now, but we know at some point Arya will meet a man from Braavos and say “Valar morghulis.” Do we know a man from Braavos? Dany has a bunch of Dothraki, and she has a defector from Westeros – but does she have anyone from Braavos with her? I don’t recall any with her right now. I’ll have to check.

Also, I figured out what it is about Jaqen’s speech pattern that’s been making it simultaneously familiar and interesting to me. “A man sees. A man hears. A man knows.” I want to take a moment with the Old English equivalent phrases. “Mon siehþ. Mon hiereþ. Mon wat.”

Jaqen H’ghar’s speech is dominated by passive voice. And this is no exception. The construction “A man [verb]s” is a direct rendering of how Old English constructed the passive voice. A man sees. A man hears. A man knows. It is seen. It is heard. It is known.

I’ve been working on some issues of Old English translation, and rendering the passive voice in a clear yet distinct way has been one of the biggest challenges. Seeing the Old English passive used here, I’m convinced it can work. It feels passive in Jaqen’s mouth. More importantly, it will work on the grounds of allowing the translation to showcase some of the difference between English-then and English-now. Thank you, George R.R. Martin, you’ve just helped my thesis along.

Oh yeah, and Arya calls herself Nymeria when she introduces herself to the men she helps rescue. So in a way, Nymeria came and helped liberate Harrenhal.

Dany: This is a bizarre chapter. I have no idea what to make of it except that between Xaro, Pyat Pree, and Quaithe only Quaithe has any hope of being directly useful to Dany now.

Of all the visions Dany saw in this chapter, I think the feast of corpses is probably one of the most important. “In the throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in his hand as a king might hold a scepter.”

The leg of lamb is unclear to me, given the fact that I don’t know of any major players with sheep for their family symbol, but the wolf is pretty clear.

The vision of Aegon seems like it might be worth remembering later, especially as it ties into the end of the chapter – the dragon has three heads. Mother of dragons … child of storm … what’s the third one? Three fires: one for life, one for death, one to love. Three mounts: one to bed, one to dread, one to love. Three treasons: once for blood, once for gold, once for love.

I don’t know quite what to make of this chapter, but these elements seem the most pressingly important. Dany’s threes will be the biggest mystery going forward for me, I think.

Things of importance:
* Valar morghulis
* We’ve now seen just what magic Melisandre uses.
* Dany’s visions.
* Theon has Winterfell. This will bite him in the ass.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Theon will literally be bitten in the ass or ass-region for this. By Shaggydog and/or Summer.
* Arya will eventually meet a man from Braavos.
* Davos will be instrumental in the downfall of Stannis.

Dany’s Threes:
Three heads: Three identities. Mother of dragons and child of storms are obvious – the third, though… the one she seeks is Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Too obvious, though. Not the third head.
Three fires: life, death, love. There’s the obvious fire of Drogo’s funeral – the fire of life. The other two will come. No predictions as yet.
Three mounts: To bed, to dread, to love. Drogo was to bed. She will have another to dread, and if the Jon Snow as secret Targaryen and match to her thing works out he’s the one to love.
Three treasons: For blood, for gold, for love. Viserys feels right for gold, if a bit early, and I think Ser Jorah might betray her out of love. For blood, I don’t know.

[Landis963]

Three treasons: For blood, for gold, for love. Viserys feels right for gold, if a bit early, and I think Ser Jorah might betray her out of love. For blood, I don’t know.

Viserys didn't betray her for gold, though, as I recall. The "golden crown" was what prompted his well-deserved demise, but that wasn't why he turned on her, IIRC. (Been a while since I've read A Game Of Thrones, and can only remember the TV version clearly) Didn't he betray her to try and get the invasion of Westeros going early? Or at the very least, get the unborn heir out of Drogo's clutches?

[SaintRidley]

I'm taking a broad interpretation of "for gold" at the moment. So power, an army, a kingdom - all fitting under gold at the moment and symbolized by the golden crown.

Also, thank you. It's refreshing to see a post I can not only read, but actually reply to. A good way to start the year.

[Landis963]

I'm taking a broad interpretation of "for gold" at the moment. So power, an army, a kingdom - all fitting under gold at the moment and symbolized by the golden crown.

Also, thank you. It's refreshing to see a post I can not only read, but actually reply to. A good way to start the year.

I thought that Viserys' betrayal was for blood, myself - extricating his family's fate from this tribe of unwashed, uncouth barbarians, and bending them to be subservient to the might of the dragon, exalting his blood over that of the horse, with the promise of Westerosi blood shed by his command. Viserys betrayed her for blood, another will betray her for gold, and a third will betray her for love.

And you're welcome. Although this theory is predicated on a fairly solid notion of who exactly betrays her for gold, and I should really shut up now.

[Sliver]

Did he actually betray her? He basically groomed her from the start to sell of in order to get the army he needs. While he grew more brutal as his frustration grew, I feel like Dany didn't trust him enough for it to be an actual betrayal.

[Tris]

Syrio Forel who was Arya's "dance instructor" was from Braavos.

[Legato Endless]

Did he actually betray her? He basically groomed her from the start to sell of in order to get the army he needs. While he grew more brutal as his frustration grew, I feel like Dany didn't trust him enough for it to be an actual betrayal.

Yeah, I don't know if I would construe the crowning of King Cart as treachery per se. Especially since Danny is rather passive within the context of that scene. Three betrayals you will know sounds like a rather poignant experience, and the only person at this point who really fits the description would be Mirri Maz Duur, who did explicitly violate Danny's trust.

[Landis963]

Yeah, I don't know if I would construe the crowning of King Cart as treachery per se. Especially since Danny is rather passive within the context of that scene. Three betrayals you will know sounds like a rather poignant experience, and the only person at this point who really fits the description would be Mirri Maz Duur, who did explicitly violate Danny's trust.

And did so... Because she needed Rhaego's blood to revive Drogo, because the blood of her kin had already been violated, because she feared the blood that Rhaego himself might spill. If Viserys was not a betrayal for blood, there is no better candidate to my mind.

[SowZ]

I'm taking a broad interpretation of "for gold" at the moment. So power, an army, a kingdom - all fitting under gold at the moment and symbolized by the golden crown.

Also, thank you. It's refreshing to see a post I can not only read, but actually reply to. A good way to start the year.

Ehh, I don't think Viserys ever cared about money much. And the Dothraki didn't give him any money for Dany.

Viserys wanted two things: to rule Westoros and to get revenge.

[An Enemy Spy]

Spoiler: Dany's betrayals

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Counting up all the betrayals Dany has suffered all the way through Book 5: There's Jorah reporting on her to Kings Landing, Mirri Maz Durr, Xaro being a false friend trying to get her to marry him so he could take one of her dragons and later declaring war, Pyat Pree giving her to the Undying to suck the life out of her, Brown Ben Plumm abandoning her, Hizdahr trying to poison her the day after their wedding.
Which of these are the three betrayals? Mirri's seems like one, though it happened before the scene with the Undying, so who knows? As for the others, most of them seem like too much of a stretch to be one of the three.

[Sliver]

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I think the betrayals depend on her trust, too. I think only Jorah can be counted as a betrayal after the scene. His betrayal is more of a perceived than an actual betrayal on his part, IMO, but it could still fit. If the betrayals are only for after the scene with the undying, then Jorah could fit a perceived betrayal for gold. Drogon (That's the name of the black dragon, right?) could be a betrayal for blood? It practically left her for a murder spree, having a pretty big impact on how she reacted to the other dragons and had shaken her and her position quite a bit... Drogon returned, but Jorah is still loyal to her as well, so...

[SaintRidley]

I honestly thought the passive voice thing was going to be far more interesting to you.

[thethird]

I find the passive voice amazing. But maybe it's because as English is not my mother tongue I enjoy when people talk about it's evolution or etymology.

Also have you considered the event that leads to Daenerys fire birth with a treason? Both are important events.

[Legato Endless]

I honestly thought the passive voice thing was going to be far more interesting to you.

I find it interesting, but it's hard to comment on without asking you to actually give some more info about your thesis, which seemed a mite gauche.

I do feel somewhat vindicated whenever I see it used in literature though, after untold eons of having my American professors hammer into me the undeniable truth that the passive voice is a hideous sin you should avoid at all costs.

[Landis963]

Also have you considered the event that leads to Daenerys fire birth with a treason? Both are important events.

Daenerys didn't know the poisoner that well, why would she connect it with the prophecy. Likewise, there's no evidence as yet to connect the prophecy with that event.

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With that said, however, that was clearly the betrayal for gold, on Ser Jorah's part.

The third head of the dragon is clearly the Breaker of Chains. We've been discussing the treasons. What about the loves? One to bed, one to dread, one to love. Drogo's been accepted as the love to bed, but remember, she was terrified of him, and remained so for months after their betrothal. Besides, she's had more than one sexual partner over the course of the stories' run. Daario Naharis seems like a perfect candidate for the love to bed, wouldn't you say? In fact, given the development of both characters' relationships with Dany, you could probably argue them into any combination you wish. I just hope that the love to dread has already passed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't know whether or not I should spoiler this quote and reaction, but I think I will, and since I'm including the book--don't peek until you've finished it. In a nutshell: holy foreshadowing, Batman!

Spoiler: A Storm of Swords

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Of all the visions Dany saw in this chapter, I think the feast of corpses is probably one of the most important. “In the throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in his hand as a king might hold a scepter.”

The leg of lamb is unclear to me, given the fact that I don’t know of any major players with sheep for their family symbol, but the wolf is pretty clear.

Oh man. Still can't believe I forgot about this one. It foreshadows the Red Wedding so hard. I'm really hoping SaintRidley remembers this when the time comes.

[Emperordaniel]

Spoiler: Dany's threes

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With that said, however, that was clearly the betrayal for gold, on Ser Jorah's part.

The third head of the dragon is clearly the Breaker of Chains. We've been discussing the treasons. What about the loves? One to bed, one to dread, one to love. Drogo's been accepted as the love to bed, but remember, she was terrified of him, and remained so for months after their betrothal. Besides, she's had more than one sexual partner over the course of the stories' run. Daario Naharis seems like a perfect candidate for the love to bed, wouldn't you say? In fact, given the development of both characters' relationships with Dany, you could probably argue them into any combination you wish. I just hope that the love to dread has already passed.

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Since reading ADwD, I've thought of Dany's three mounts - one to bed, one to dread, and one to love - as being Khal Drogo, whatshisname noble from Meereen, and Daario Naharis, respectively. As far as I can remember, those have been her only partners over the course of the series (well, not counting those few instances with her handmaids).

[Gnome Alone]

I dig the Braavosi "passive voice" construction. Didn't realize that's what that was; thank you for enlightening me. Actually, huh, is it a Braavosi trait or is that just Jaqen H'ghar? Did Syrio Forel talk like that? I think he's the only other Braavosi that's been in the story for any length of time at this point. Anyway, man does it remind me of the Khajit from the Elder Scrolls. "This one feels like he would fit into a story about this Esteros he has heard of."

"Hot weasel soup" is so freaking macabre. Or, actually, the carrying it out is pretty genius, and kinda par for the course Westerosi murderviolence, but I remember being actually a little uneasy about that Bloody Mummer playing puppet show with the severed heads. That was macabre. It was great.

I figure you haven't seen the show; I don't know if you're avoiding spoilers for it, though, so just to be on the safe side I will en-spoiler box-itize my next comment, but it's just about the adaptation of this part in the show, not anything from further on in the books, so if'n you don't care, click away:

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They don't do the weasel soup bit at all. It struck me as such a wasted opportunity cuz it'd have been a good visual, especially that disturbing "talking heads" bit. The changes to the Harrenhal scenes were generally a bit perplexing to me. Although the Tywin-Arya ones were great.

[AmberVael]

I dig the Braavosi "passive voice" construction. Didn't realize that's what that was; thank you for enlightening me. Actually, huh, is it a Braavosi trait or is that just Jaqen H'ghar? Did Syrio Forel talk like that? I think he's the only other Braavosi that's been in the story for any length of time at this point. Anyway, man does it remind me of the Khajit from the Elder Scrolls. "This one feels like he would fit into a story about this Esteros he has heard of."

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My guess? Its a Faceless Man thing.

"Who are you?" he would ask her every day.
"No one," she would answer.

"Before you drink from the cold cup, you must offer up all you are to Him of Many Faces. Your body. Your soul. Yourself."

The Faceless Men have this thing going on with identity, a denial of it that either plays towards being no one or perhaps being no one in particular (that is to say, anyone). The way Jaqen speaks seems like it could tie into that- there is no 'I' when he talks, only 'a man.'
Its interesting to note that Jaqen drops this speech habit when he swears that he will kill anyone she names, and when/after he drops that identity. That he readily and deliberately drops that form of speaking does seem to indicate that this is almost some ritualistic form, rather than some quirk.

It may also just have something to do with the particular identity he was using though, rather than the Faceless Men.

Edit: Its not a Braavosi thing as far as I know. I don't remember any of them that speak like that (the captain that takes her to Braavos, the kindly man, pretty sure Syrio doesn't either.)

[SaintRidley]

The only things I know about the show are a single picture of Dany, and a couple gifs of Tyrion. I haven't had a chance to watch yet, so I'm very much avoiding spoilers.

Although if I could get a non spoilery image of each of the Cleganes, I'd love to see what they look like.

And I'll check on Syrio and whether it's a larger Braavosi thing, or just a J'haqen thing.

I'm drawing up my syllabus for the Spring now, but before I get my next update out I do plan to address the questions/comments about passive voice raised earlier.

[Landis963]

Although if I could get a non spoilery image of each of the Cleganes, I'd love to see what they look like.

Your Wish is our command. From the TV show: Gregor from Season 1, Gregor from Season 2, Gregor from Season 4, Sandor from all 4 seasons.

[An Enemy Spy]

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My guess? Its a Faceless Man thing.





The Faceless Men have this thing going on with identity, a denial of it that either plays towards being no one or perhaps being no one in particular (that is to say, anyone). The way Jaqen speaks seems like it could tie into that- there is no 'I' when he talks, only 'a man.'
Its interesting to note that Jaqen drops this speech habit when he swears that he will kill anyone she names, and when/after he drops that identity. That he readily and deliberately drops that form of speaking does seem to indicate that this is almost some ritualistic form, rather than some quirk.

It may also just have something to do with the particular identity he was using though, rather than the Faceless Men.

Edit: Its not a Braavosi thing as far as I know. I don't remember any of them that speak like that (the captain that takes her to Braavos, the kindly man, pretty sure Syrio doesn't either.)

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Jaqen was a Lorathi(who knows where the man pretending to be him comes from), not a Braavosi. It may be a Lorathi thing, or even just a quirk that identity has. Neither The Alchemist in Oldtown or the fake novice Pate, who are probably the same guy as Jaqen, talk like that.