Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[Killer Angel]

Oh, my sweet summer child ...

He's right on some things. But I'm sure that every one of us was right on some things, while we were reading it for the first time...

But yeah, this thread promises fun.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

His prose is very cinematic. It's no wonder they were able to adapt it so well.

Well, Martin was a TV writer...

Tyrion – I like the way he and Jon talk. It seems to me that the best people so far are those who don’t fit in with society, either because of some physical (Tyrion, now Bran) or mental (Hodor) “defect,” non-socially approved circumstances of birth (Jon), or due to being unwilling to conform to the traditional rules (Arya). I feel like, having seen what those close to him are capable of, Tyrion is potentially a snake, but he’s acquitted himself quite well so far.

This is an incredibly astute observation that I didn't cop to before. I think it's absolutely part of the story that Martin is telling, and they won't be the last misfits you run into via the books.

[Math_Mage]

This is an incredibly astute observation that I didn't cop to before. I think it's absolutely part of the story that Martin is telling, and they won't be the last misfits you run into via the books.

TBH I thought that was a plain reading after:
“Let me give you some advice, bastard: Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.”

[CarpeGuitarrem]

TBH I thought that was a plain reading after:
“Let me give you some advice, bastard: Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.”

I sorta keyed into it, but I didn't realize (until reflection) that it was such a motif for the series as a whole. I mostly thought of it as something that was localized to Tyrion's character, but it's way more widespread.

[TechnOkami]

I typically don't think that analytically in the literary sense. I just kind of go "these guys are cool".

[Math_Mage]

I sorta keyed into it, but I didn't realize (until reflection) that it was such a motif for the series as a whole. I mostly thought of it as something that was localized to Tyrion's character, but it's way more widespread.

Well...given the list, he might as well have said "Starks + Tyrion are cool doods" and it would be about as good of an explanation.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well...given the list, he might as well have said "Starks + Tyrion are cool doods" and it would be about as good of an explanation.

Now that I noticed.

[SaintRidley]

Let's Read: A Song of Ice and Fire part three
Game of Thrones pages ~300-~400

Before I get going, one of the things that I'm enjoying most about reading these books is that it's the first time in a long time I've gotten the opportunity to just read something for fun. Trust me when I say that majoring in English and working on a PhD in literary studies means you have no time to read anything you want to and just enjoy it - even if you get to read what you want to, you have to pick it apart and tease out interpretations and implications. It's something I can't avoid doing now when reading or watching something, but I enjoy being able to put that to rest a bit and focus more on just enjoying the plot for what it is.

That said, I'm sure I'll find myself focusing on some interpretive aspects in the future. Like I said, I can't not do it. Anyway, I'll go in the same way as last time and hit it chapter by chapter.

Eddard: This chapter gives us the end of the tournament. We get a bit of important info here - that one knight who died was the previous Hand's squire, so it's a pretty obvious hit to keep him quiet. After Sansa's moment of pity for Sandor in her last chapter, we get another moment with her asking if Sandor wins now that Gregor tried to kill the flower knight. It may be we're seeing the beginnings of development, which I'd like to have happen as so far she's kind of not at all interesting and a bit completely repellent. Sandor's rising in my estimation - he's a jerk and a grump and not very pleasant, but he seems to land on the side of fairness and generally not being a horrible person - kind of like Sparhawk. Give him candidacy for the "best people" list from last post. We also get some of Ned and King Robert, and King Robert still looks and acts the part of a naive fool. We do get a bit more of Varys the eunuch. I don't entirely trust him, but I really like how he's written - Martin definitely did his research on historical palace eunuchs, because Varys is perfect in that role. He's too deep into the world of castle intrigue to be entirely trustworthy, but given his position his motivations probably stem from protecting his ass and keeping his status, so I'm going to tentatively buy what he's selling so long as it makes sense coming from that position.

Tyrion: Tyrion's adventures on the road with Catelyn and her people. Not going to Winterfell but to find Lysa, so it's still up in the air whether Catelyn will actually make it back to her children alive. The attacks on the road force an uneasy trust between her and Tyrion, though, as she needs him and his guys armed in order to survive. Good thing she did, but it makes things too simple for Tyrion. He may be telling the truth and not be interested in killing her children, but he doesn't take kindly to her, and may try something on her before they get too far. He doesn't bet against family, but he probably bets against Catelyn Stark.

Arya: What I really like about Arya right now is encapsulated completely in this chapter. She's catching cats. She doesn't care what she looks like. She's putting the lessons she's learning to work. And she uses these attributes to stumble upon plot. She finds the dragon skulls in the palace dungeons and discovers a fat wizard whom I'll refer to for now as Cartman. She's putting pieces together - they mentioned the book, the bastard, and the truth. So Jon's important, and I bet it has something to do with his mother being in the book. Ned brushes her off though. But maybe he'll start paying attention when he learns about Daenerys, because Arya mentioned her as well. Good plot catching, Arya.

Eddard: Starts off with a meeting about Daenerys, but he doesn't seem to want to give much thought to Arya bringing him that news early. King Robert shows himself here - he plays the part of the naive oaf very convincingly, but his reaction to Ned and to the news about Dany is dire. I'm with Ned and Eminem on this - if you're gonna kill a guy you should tell him why, look him dead in the eye, then waste him. Varys suggest the tears of Lys, what he told Ned in the earlier chapter was used to kill Jon Arryn. The king doesn't like poison, but I find this suggestion interesting. So Ned's on the outs as Hand. Didn't last long, and Littlefinger promises him some info if he can stick around for the evening rather than leaving immediately.

Catelyn: They make it to the Eyrie and Catelyn goes up ahead to see her sister. Lysa does not appreciate her bringing Tyrion with her to the Eyrie, though. Her nephew Robert - how old is he? He's coddled in Catelyn's opinion, but it'd help to have an age to put him at. If he's like, five or more and still suckling his mother's tit that seems like a definite point in favor of Catelyn's impression of things. I don't see Lysa or Robert Arryn being terribly useful down the line, not with this introduction. Sansa's introduction is more favorable, if that's even possible.

Eddard: So far as Ned can tell, it seems Arryn got to close to the king's dirty laundry - and his legions of bastards. I think Littlefinger may have set Ned up here - Ned loses his men and is basically told to get out of town ASAP.

Daenerys: The more we see her, the more I like her, but I love that she doesn't get too much spotlight. I want her doings to be somewhat ominous for the other characters, and she keeps owning her brother now that she's found her courage. I disagree with her - she thinks her kid's the true dragon. I think she is.

Things that seem important:
*They killed Arryn, but Ned's still alive and kicking. It doesn't add up - the truth has to be more than what Arryn knew about the king's brothel visits.
*Ned doesn't see what's so useful about the training Arya's receiving. Her training is going to be key at some point. She's a stealthy rogue type, not a front-line fighter.
*Varys and Littlefinger - they get up to a lot of intrigue in the palace, and seem in some ways poised to benefit no matter how this game of thrones plays out, as is typical of the lower ranking members of court, especially the eunuchs. How much might they be in the employ of the Lannisters? Hard to say. They aren't trustworthy, but if their position is on the line and they're acting as if something's true to keep that position, good chance they're providing a glimpse at some useful information.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:

*Tyrion's not flying any time soon. His new friends will probably help him escape, but probably not before one of Catelyn, Lysa, or Robert Arryn gets hurt/killed in the process.
* Jon's role is going to be due to his mother's ancestry, which will be in the book Ned has.
* Big bold prediction - Jon's mother was a Targaryen, and Jon and Daenerys will eventually wind up together in the kind of Pharaonic marriage the Targaryen line favors, just in time to fight back against the white walkers.

[Pokonic]

Robert Arryn is six, for the record.

Yes, Lysa is still the most screwed up noble in the room.

Spoiler: Predictions

Show

Big bold prediction - Jon's mother was a Targaryen, and Jon and Daenerys will eventually wind up together in the kind of Pharaonic marriage the Targaryen line favors, just in time to fight back against the white walkers.

*choking noises of utter disbelief*

[HeadlessMermaid]

Predictions pulled out of my ass:

I would like to compliment your ass.
*subscribes*

[thethird]

I started reading this the first time you posted, it was hard for me not to post... But I kept myself from doing it since I thought that if I did so I might spoil some things. Still, I just wanted to compliment you and cheer to keep you going :P

I find specially interesting how you describe your conclusions and expectations, so please don't stop doing that.

Finally on the people that argue about which books are bad and which books are good, the one I liked the least was the fifth, followed by the first. In my opinion one of the good things of the series is that there are many groups of power (i.e. family) that fight/compete against each other. The fifth one moves the focus away, and the first one hasn't really bloomed (focusing almost exclusively in two families). I did enjoy the 4th one, but that's because I've got a soft spot for some of the families/characters depicted. Few chapters of the 5th actually appealed to me as a reader.

[Legato Endless]

.

Spoiler: Predictions

Show

*choking noises of utter disbelief*

Spoiler: Eddard

Show

Heh. Calling it now, Ridley figures out R+L=J by the tower of Joy sequence.

[Killer Angel]

I find specially interesting how you describe your conclusions and expectations, so please don't stop doing that.

I'm going to echo this, 'cause that's really one of the better things.

[Landis963]

Robert Arryn is six, for the record.

Yes, Lysa is still the most screwed up noble in the room.

Spoiler: Predictions

Show

*choking noises of utter disbelief*

Could be worse. In the show he's eight when we first meet him. And yes, the meeting is otherwise unchanged.

Spoiler

Show

Oh my sweet summer child...

Oh yeah, and subbed.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Spoiler: Eddard

Show

Heh. Calling it now, Ridley figures out R+L=J by the tower of Joy sequence.

I thought that was just speculation and not confirmed?

[Legato Endless]

I thought that was just speculation and not confirmed?

Spoiler: True, however...

Show

That's not really relevant per se, since I'm merely betting on an explanation to follow Ridley's conclusion. Although I treat as it being implicitly true, since no other proposed explanation fits all the evidence half as well.

[hamlet]

*quiver*

Must . . . not . . . spoil . . .

*quiver*

Interesting to see how a true GOT virgin is taking the books one at a time. Hopefully none of the pop-cultural osmosis or those here spoil the big things. I can't wait till we get to certain points in the next few chapters.

*quiver subscribe*

[Math_Mage]

Spoiler

Show

Jon's parentage is basically taken as gospel now. GRRM's provided way too much evidence to interpret in any other way without messing up the narrative something fierce. Not to mention, the guys who're making the show say they guessed who Jon's parents are and had their guess confirmed by GRRM, and there's really no one else they would have guessed, even if they could have.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Spoiler

Show

Jon's parentage is basically taken as gospel now. GRRM's provided way too much evidence to interpret in any other way without messing up the narrative something fierce. Not to mention, the guys who're making the show say they guessed who Jon's parents are and had their guess confirmed by GRRM, and there's really no one else they would have guessed, even if they could have.

Spoiler

Show

Plot twist: Tyrion's actually the dad, and the series opens with a father-son chat.

[hamlet]

Spoiler

Show

Plot twist: Tyrion's actually the dad, and the series opens with a father-son chat.

Spoiler

Show

Tyrion is a Targaryen anyway, so it still works out sorta . . .

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler

Show

Plot twist: Tyrion's actually the dad, and the series opens with a father-son chat.

Spoiler: Tyrion

Show

That would be really creepy considering Tyrion is only 10 years older than Jon.

[ryuplaneswalker]

In regards to Robert Baratheion

I like the guy, he had some deep deep flaws most of which were exacerbated by the fact he was forced into being king, being forced to marry Cersi to cement his throne.

Really the Starks should have been the ones put in charge, Robert never really seemed as if he wanted the throne at all, he was a Warrior not a Ruler.

[Grinner]

In regards to Robert Baratheion

I like the guy, he had some deep deep flaws most of which were exacerbated by the fact he was forced into being king, being forced to marry Cersi to cement his throne.

Really the Starks should have been the ones put in charge, Robert never really seemed as if he wanted the throne at all, he was a Warrior not a Ruler.

Spoiler

Show

I think you've got that backwards. Cersei was the one forced into marriage. In this respect, I feel like she and Sansa have a lot in common.

Robert's mistake was biting off more than he could chew. I'll point out that he chose to lead a rebellion against Aerys Targaryen. He did this of his own volition, though he had good cause.

Still, kingdoms don't run themselves; George RR Martin has demonstrated that well enough. Aerys Targaryen, raving mad he may have been, at least knew how to turn a profit. Robert's reckless tendencies served him well in battle, but they did not make for a wise king. I think he had the best of intentions coming into the throne, but as I believe one character points out, he soon discovered he couldn't solve all of his problems with a warhammer.

Like you said, he was a warrior, not a ruler.

[Aedilred]

Spoiler

Show

I think you've got that backwards. Cersei was the one forced into marriage. In this respect, I feel like she and Sansa have a lot in common.

Robert's mistake was biting off more than he could chew. I'll point out that he chose to lead a rebellion against Aerys Targaryen. He did this of his own volition, though he had good cause.

Still, kingdoms don't run themselves; George RR Martin has demonstrated that well enough. Aerys Targaryen, raving mad he may have been, at least knew how to turn a profit. Robert's reckless tendencies served him well in battle, but they did not make for a wise king. I think he had the best of intentions coming into the throne, but as I believe one character points out, he soon discovered he couldn't solve all of his problems with a warhammer.

Like you said, he was a warrior, not a ruler.

Spoiler

Show

It's debatable that Robert led the rebellion. He was the figurehead, but it was coordinated by Jon Arryn. We don't know how Robert reacted to Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, but it wasn't by grabbing his hammer and raising his banners. It was Brandon who stormed into the throne room demanding Rhaegar fight him, and by the time Rickard had travelled from the North to answer the charges Robert was still at the Eyrie.

The Rebellion proper started when Aerys overplayed his hand and demanded Arryn surrender Ned and Robert, presumably for pre-emptive execution in case they later decided to cause problems over the Lyanna issue. It was at this point that Arryn raised his banners, and Robert and Ned departed to their own kingdoms to raise their own (and hook up with the Tullys). Arguably, Robert didn't become even the designated leader of the rebellion until the allied army was assembled around the time of the Battle of the Bells. Information on the exact details of the period is still a little sketchy.

The cause of the Rebellion wasn't - directly - Lyanna's kidnapping; it was pretty much self-defence on Ned and Robert's parts.

[Grinner]

Spoiler

Show

It's debatable that Robert led the rebellion. He was the figurehead, but it was coordinated by Jon Arryn. We don't know how Robert reacted to Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, but it wasn't by grabbing his hammer and raising his banners. It was Brandon who stormed into the throne room demanding Rhaegar fight him, and by the time Rickard had travelled from the North to answer the charges Robert was still at the Eyrie.

The Rebellion proper started when Aerys overplayed his hand and demanded Arryn surrender Ned and Robert, presumably for pre-emptive execution in case they later decided to cause problems over the Lyanna issue. It was at this point that Arryn raised his banners, and Robert and Ned departed to their own kingdoms to raise their own (and hook up with the Tullys). Arguably, Robert didn't become even the designated leader of the rebellion until the allied army was assembled around the time of the Battle of the Bells. Information on the exact details of the period is still a little sketchy.

The cause of the Rebellion wasn't - directly - Lyanna's kidnapping; it was pretty much self-defence on Ned and Robert's parts.

Spoiler

Show

When you put it like that, it ought to be a soap opera.

Jokes aside, where was this described? I remember the bit about Lyanna's kidnapping and Brandon's "trial", but I recall nothing of that triggering the Rebellion.

[Dienekes]

Spoiler

Show

I think you've got that backwards. Cersei was the one forced into marriage. In this respect, I feel like she and Sansa have a lot in common.

Robert's mistake was biting off more than he could chew. I'll point out that he chose to lead a rebellion against Aerys Targaryen. He did this of his own volition, though he had good cause.

Still, kingdoms don't run themselves; George RR Martin has demonstrated that well enough. Aerys Targaryen, raving mad he may have been, at least knew how to turn a profit. Robert's reckless tendencies served him well in battle, but they did not make for a wise king. I think he had the best of intentions coming into the throne, but as I believe one character points out, he soon discovered he couldn't solve all of his problems with a warhammer.

Like you said, he was a warrior, not a ruler.

Spoiler

Show

It's debatable that Robert led the rebellion. He was the figurehead, but it was coordinated by Jon Arryn. We don't know how Robert reacted to Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, but it wasn't by grabbing his hammer and raising his banners. It was Brandon who stormed into the throne room demanding Rhaegar fight him, and by the time Rickard had travelled from the North to answer the charges Robert was still at the Eyrie.

The Rebellion proper started when Aerys overplayed his hand and demanded Arryn surrender Ned and Robert, presumably for pre-emptive execution in case they later decided to cause problems over the Lyanna issue. It was at this point that Arryn raised his banners, and Robert and Ned departed to their own kingdoms to raise their own (and hook up with the Tullys). Arguably, Robert didn't become even the designated leader of the rebellion until the allied army was assembled around the time of the Battle of the Bells. Information on the exact details of the period is still a little sketchy.

The cause of the Rebellion wasn't - directly - Lyanna's kidnapping; it was pretty much self-defence on Ned and Robert's parts.

Spoiler

Show

I don't think calling Robert a figurehead in the actual rebellion is giving him the credit he deserves. He lead at least one of the major armies, won numerous battles, gained allegiances and made friends easier than anyone thought possible. It wasn't for nothing that he was considered the heart of the rebellion, and why the Battle of the Bells was considered so important as the Targ's lost their chance to kill off their enemy. Robert won the war, sure Arryn and Ned helped, a lot, but without Robert's audacious army movements, his banners, and his ability to turn enemies into friends the war would have been lost.

As to the marriage, it's claimed pretty fairly that both were pushed into it. Jon and Tywin arranged it to strengthen the power of the crown, Robert didn't care for Cersei, though Cersei originally cared for Robert (that lasted all of one night).

I will say, if L+R=J is true, I will be absolutely furious with Lyanna and Rhaegar for plunging their kingdom into a needless war just because they wanted snusnu. Idiots.

[Math_Mage]

Spoiler

Show

I will say, if L+R=J is true, I will be absolutely furious with Lyanna and Rhaegar for plunging their kingdom into a needless war just because they wanted snusnu. Idiots.

Spoiler

Show

Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. However, I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment. Give Aerys his fair share of the blame.

[russdm]

I had a few points from reading this big medieval soap opera, which is what it is, and that should have already been noticed, so that's not a spoiler.

The rest is, so be warned here before you open the spoiler tags.

Spoiler

Show

When you put it like that, it ought to be a soap opera.

Spoiler

Show

That's because it is. Its totally stupid like one.

Spoiler

Show

Jokes aside, where was this described? I remember the bit about Lyanna's kidnapping and Brandon's "trial", but I recall nothing of that triggering the Rebellion.

Spoiler

Show

The details of how the whole Rebellion happened is fully detailed in mainly Jaime's chapters, with a few references in chapters featuring Ned.

Based on what happened for the Rebellion, it is quite clear that Robert didn't care at all and only got involved when Aerys decided to kill him and Ned. If Aerys had sent Tywin with orders to kill Robert, Ned would have likely ended up stopping or dying if Tywin had orders to kill both. Clearly the entire Rebellion was caused by stupidity from Aerys for not employing Tywin to put it down.

As for Robert being "Figurehead" for the Rebellion, it happens to be heavily implied from I have read that Robert had only one skill set and that was smashing things with his hammer. There have been no stories or tales of Robert's leaderships skills during the Rebellion, meaning there is no proof that he caused the victories. Based on what happens with Robb Stark, its clear that Robert was mainly just some decent warrior who was in the right time at the right place.

Besides, based on Robert's later life, it is clear that lacked any leadership skills whatsoever. He may have been a good fighter, but that is all he was. He wasn't that good at making people like him, because Cersei hated him, and so did a bunch of other people. Ned seems to have been Robert's only actual friend and even Ned thinks Robert is bad news. That much is clear.

Once it became clear to everyone that Aerys was finished, I think the other nobles simply switched sides. I don't see any sign of Robert having convinced anybody to join him that were enemies. The Kingsguard was going to serve who ever was king; the other nobles signed up once they saw where the wind was blowing, while the rest apparently quit once it was clear there was no point in continuing to fight. None of it was caused by Robert.

L + R didn't plunge the kingdom into war, it was Aerys and his complete stupidity that did it. Then Robert's stupidity.

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler

Show

It's debatable that Robert led the rebellion. He was the figurehead, but it was coordinated by Jon Arryn. We don't know how Robert reacted to Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, but it wasn't by grabbing his hammer and raising his banners. It was Brandon who stormed into the throne room demanding Rhaegar fight him, and by the time Rickard had travelled from the North to answer the charges Robert was still at the Eyrie.

The Rebellion proper started when Aerys overplayed his hand and demanded Arryn surrender Ned and Robert, presumably for pre-emptive execution in case they later decided to cause problems over the Lyanna issue. It was at this point that Arryn raised his banners, and Robert and Ned departed to their own kingdoms to raise their own (and hook up with the Tullys). Arguably, Robert didn't become even the designated leader of the rebellion until the allied army was assembled around the time of the Battle of the Bells. Information on the exact details of the period is still a little sketchy.

The cause of the Rebellion wasn't - directly - Lyanna's kidnapping; it was pretty much self-defence on Ned and Robert's parts.

Spoiler: Robert

Show

I don't think Robert's lack of action reflected much of anything here actually. Robert didn't raise his banners yes, but most likely he wasn't allowed to. He was still Arryn's ward and housed in the seat of his power. I don't think considering everything we know about Robert's feelings on the issue he would willingly stand by, I think he was forced to. It's not so much merely self defense as demanding the handing over of his wards after the execution of the nobles gave Arryn an unambiguous pretext to rebel.

Spoiler

Show

I will say, if L+R=J is true, I will be absolutely furious with Lyanna and Rhaegar for plunging their kingdom into a needless war just because they wanted snusnu. Idiots.

Spoiler: The Mad King

Show

But Destiny! The dragon must have three heads. More seriously, Rhaegar's fatal mistake wasn't Lyanna. Rhaegar would probably have gotten away with that. While not politically wise, the Targaryens don't answer to the laws of gods or men, and gave it legal precedent with the Faith Militant Uprising. Polygamy would have been tolerated the way they alone can also get away with incest. No, Rhaegar's mistake was allowing his father to continue to sit the throne after Aerys dismissed his minder, and then deciding to leave the realm for a year in the hands of an unattended madman.

Spoiler

Show

That's because it is. Its totally stupid like one.

Spoiler: That word doesn't mean what you think it does

Show

Regardless of quality, ASOIAF is not a soap opera. In addition to be formatted for television and radio, soap operas are structured around an open narrative that moves from episode to episode. While Song has interrelated events, drama, strong continuity and other similar hallmarks, it doesn't qualify in the essential way. It is moving toward a definite conclusion and the plot threads are not there merely to relate the minutiae of normal life. It also certainly doesn't update 5 days a week. The word you're looking for here is melodrama, though that's not nearly as connotatively pejorative perhaps as one might want.

[russdm]

Spoiler: Robert

Show

I don't think Robert's lack of action reflected much of anything here actually. Robert didn't raise his banners yes, but most likely he wasn't allowed to. He was still Arryn's ward and housed in the seat of his power. I don't think considering everything we know about Robert's feelings on the issue he would willingly stand by, I think he was forced to. It's not so much merely self defense as demanding the handing over of his wards after the execution of the nobles gave Arryn an unambiguous pretext to rebel.

Spoiler

Show

What do you mean by this? After reading all of the books, I have not read anything that suggests Robert pushed for action for anything other than his own wounded pride and little else.

Ned rescued his sister, while Robert stayed behind to fight Rhaeger rather than go rescue his "love". I put that in quotes, because based on Robert's own actions, he didn't give a d*** about Ned's sister and he clearly didn't have anything more than lust for her.

Ned himself believed that Lyanna was totally uninterested in Robert, he almost completely says so somewhere in the first book.

If what happened to Lyanna mattered so much to Robert, why did he not lead the expedition to the tower of joy and leave the fighting to Ned to handle? Because he didn't care about Lyanna at all. He stays to fight Rhaeger while Ned goes off for the rescue attempt. Robert could have passed command on without issues, his fellows would have understood.