Wizard vs Cleric vs Druid

[With a box]

yes, Big 3 tier 1 broken core casters.
but which one is more powerful at level 3/6/9/12/15/18(9th spells..)/21(epic)?
it's clear that Druid>Cleric>Wizard at 5, but at higher levels? I don't know.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

As far as I can tell, that basically reverses by twenty. Wizards get the best spells, and as they level, everything else starts to drop away and become less relevant. Cleric spells aren't as good as Wizard, but they still cover a broader range than druid. Druidic magic, I honestly think, is best at the kind of sneaky low-level things that WotC seemed to completely overlook (Like, charm animal + speak with animals = spies and petty thieves everywhere you go.) By high levels, it doesn't impress as much.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Class tiers and character power is not about which class wins a fight against each other, it's about which class is best at defeating a variety of encounters, including both combat and noncombat scenarios.

Druid excels in combat more than the other two, as well as anything you would have to accomplish in wilderness environments. Wizard excels in combat and in social and puzzle challenges, as well as most things involving the planes or extraplanar creatures. Cleric excels in combat and in social challenges, as well as anything that involves the upper or lower planes and their denizens and anything that causes a negative condition or debuff.

[Pluto!]

Wizards have spells that just do more things than the other classes at any point in their careers.

While Druid packs a wallop and does an easier Fighter impersonation, Clerics have spells that do more things until Shapechange's million-odd abilities muck that comparison up at ECL 17.

Those top levels, while close, aren't clearly in Druid's favor either, so I'd just say Wizard>Cleric>Druid across the board, with a slightly blurrier top end.

[eggynack]

For druids, I'm beginning to suspect that, if they have a weak spot, it's right in the 12-14 range. After that, they simultaneously get huge wild shape for dire tortoise form (and for other forms, if you have aberration wild shape. The other form adders don't particularly incentivize huge that much, except for frozen, which isn't good enough for a competition with clerics and wizards), and fey ring for the siabrie, granting ridiculousness. Before that, their spell list is still holding its own against other primary casters in a way it just doesn't as much later on. As for level 20, I disagree. Everything is equal at that point, because even if the wizard has a massive pile of 9th's, druids have shapechange, which is about as good as shapechange plus not-shapechange, and clerics have miracle, and also sometimes shapechange.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Every one of those classes gets broken tricks, it's basically rocket tag at any level, and a Wizard can get the highest initiative by far. Regardless, the power of a given class is not measured by how well it can fight other classes, it's measured by how well it does the job of being an adventurer.

[heavyfuel]

it's clear that Druid>Cleric>Wizard at 5, but at higher levels? I don't know.

Is it? It's like Biffoniacus said, tiers aren't about PvP.

But even if they were, I highly doubt a Druid can beat a Conjurer Gray Elf with Fighter Feat (Abrupt Jaunt and Imp Init at lv1, pick "Obtain Familiar" and Hummingbird at lv3, and then double familiar bonus with the Substitution Level) This guy has Abrupt Jaunt 5/day and Initiative 15+Dex with Nerveskitter. Good. Luck.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I thought Gate was still relevant, even next to Shapechange?

[eggynack]

Is it? It's like Biffoniacus said, tiers aren't about PvP.

But even if they were, I highly doubt a Druid can beat a Conjurer Gray Elf with Fighter Feat (Abrupt Jaunt and Imp Init at lv1, pick "Obtain Familiar" and Hummingbird at lv3, and then double familiar bonus with the Substitution Level) This guy has Abrupt Jaunt 5/day and Initiative 15+Dex with Nerveskitter. Good. Luck.

He'll certainly get off the first shot, if he has an opportunity, and it's likely to be a good one, but if the druid can get in an opportunity, and it's likely that he can given that the druid has a highly distracting riding dog running around, it's one full round until a wall of thorns produced by a greenbound summons. That might actually be good enough to breach the wizard's admittedly potent defenses. I'm not giving this druid any immediate medals for wizard destruction, but he has a definite chance. Also, incidentally, I don't think natural link applies to initiative checks, though you'd probably win that war anyway, at least at this level. Druids pick up their initiative tricks around levels five and six.

At the same time though, no, it's not about PvP. The druid is running a spell list that's actually pretty comparable to the one the wizard has at that point in the game, matching kelpstrand against web, entangle against color spray, and packages it up with all of the endurance and actually reasonable offense of a low level fighter. The wizard always has to ask that big question: "How can I actually kill my opponent after completely removing their ability to act?" Sure, there are ways to get in damage that a wizard has access to, but none are as efficient as an animal companion, consuming the enemies that are blinded by spittle as the druid launches sling bullets. It's actually a problem you would face in the battle against a druid, especially as many of a wizard's best disabling spells, like color spray and glitterdust, tend to come up somewhat short against the druid's incredibly high will saves (and fortitude saves, if those get tossed around). Wizards have the list, but the list isn't everything quite yet.

Edit:

I thought Gate was still relevant, even next to Shapechange?

I don't think it particularly is. We're talking about rapid fire free wishes here, which means just about everything in existence. Gate, with its not-insignificant XP cost, just doesn't seem that important at that point.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Well, they're all approximately equal. However, they each have different strengths.


The Druid wins on ease of use. It is very hard to play a druid badly compared to the other two. You give a newbie a druid, and you won't have much in the way of problems when it comes to their effectiveness, because they can always spam summons and wild shape. The Druid loses in top-tier power, however, as a druid has a lot fewer gamebreakers, and has no wish-like spell.

The Cleric wins on versatility. A cleric can be built to do literally any role, between their spell list, domains, the cloistered cleric, and their naturally robust chassis. However, the Cleric also loses on versatility, as a Cleric's build is a lot more important in comparison to the other two when it comes to their power, while they can change their role from day to day, they are the worst at this out of the three.

The Wizard wins on top-tier might. At the highest levels of play, where everyone has high amounts of skill, a Wizard will consistently beat out the other two. However, the wizard is the hardest to use, and the easiest to screw up.

[heavyfuel]

He'll certainly get off the first shot, if he has an opportunity, and it's likely to be a good one, but if the druid can get in an opportunity, and it's likely that he can given that the druid has a highly distracting riding dog running around, it's one full round until a wall of thorns produced by a greenbound summons. That might actually be good enough to breach the wizard's admittedly potent defenses. I'm not giving this druid any immediate medals for wizard destruction, but he has a definite chance. Also, incidentally, I don't think natural link applies to initiative checks, though you'd probably win that war anyway, at least at this level. Druids pick up their initiative tricks around levels five and six.

At the same time though, no, it's not about PvP. The druid is running a spell list that's actually pretty comparable to the one the wizard has at that point in the game, matching kelpstrand against web, entangle against color spray, and packages it up with all of the endurance and actually reasonable offense of a low level fighter. The wizard always has to ask that big question: "How can I actually kill my opponent after completely removing their ability to act?" Sure, there are ways to get in damage that a wizard has access to, but none are as efficient as an animal companion, consuming the enemies that are blinded by spittle as the druid launches sling bullets. It's actually a problem you would face in the battle against a druid, especially as many of a wizard's best disabling spells, like color spray and glitterdust, tend to come up somewhat short against the druid's incredibly high will saves (and fortitude saves, if those get tossed around). Wizards have the list, but the list isn't everything quite yet.

Edit:
I don't think it particularly is. We're talking about rapid fire free wishes here, which means just about everything in existence. Gate, with its not-insignificant XP cost, just doesn't seem that important at that point.

Natural Link only works on Initiative checks when you have the Hummingbird Familiar from one of the Magazines. It gives you +3 to initiative, which you double to 6.

[Eldaran]

Yeah, I agree with Requiem_Jeer, it really depends on optimization. Druid is automatically an amazing class, even with terrible stats and poor spell selection you'll still be incredibly powerful in and out of combat. Clerics at low op fall into the healbot role too often, and blaster wizards without mailman level tricks are mediocre. But at high op wizard has endless versatility and power, and is probably the best at any level.

[eggynack]

Natural Link only works on Initiative checks when you have the Hummingbird Familiar from one of the Magazines. It gives you +3 to initiative, which you double to 6.

I'm saying that it doesn't double that bonus. The substitution level says that it doubles skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar, and initiative checks are obviously not one of those. Also, gotta say that dragon stuff is pretty far out of the way, to the point where I'm vaguely inclined to break out kingdoms of kalamar for ridiculous summon fey action. "View in horror," I would say, "as this tiny pixie consumes any opposing attempts at optimization in its gaping maw."

[heavyfuel]

I'm saying that it doesn't double that bonus. The substitution level says that it doubles skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar, and initiative checks are obviously not one of those. Also, gotta say that dragon stuff is pretty far out of the way, to the point where I'm vaguely inclined to break out kingdoms of kalamar for ridiculous summon fey action. "View in horror," I would say, "as this tiny pixie consumes any opposing attempts at optimization in its gaping maw."

Hmm. Really? I'm away from book right now so I can't check out. But if you say so then I guess it doesn't really work.

And you're right, maybe it's best that we leave stuff from KoK and Dragon away from this discussion hahaha

[eggynack]

Hmm. Really? I'm away from book right now so I can't check out. But if you say so then I guess it doesn't really work.

That is how it's worded, though I can easily see a DM making allowances for it. It's probably irrelevant, overall, as wizards just run higher initiative naturally at those levels. It evens up a lot later on, when druids can become a desmodu hunting bat for massive dexterity, and layer on primal instincts for another +5, but I don't think it's a fight the druid can win at level three.

And you're right, maybe it's best that we leave stuff from KoK and Dragon away from this discussion hahah.

I'm just glad I finally found a place where I can make use of that spell in optimization discussion, as a big red retaliation button against opposing books of odd publication status. I also get to make ridiculous sounding threats involving pixies, which I don't get to do much.

[sideswipe]

and they all lose to paladin

[Vogonjeltz]

yes, Big 3 tier 1 broken core casters.
but which one is more powerful at level 3/6/9/12/15/18(9th spells..)/21(epic)?
it's clear that Druid>Cleric>Wizard at 5, but at higher levels? I don't know.

Druid gets dispel magic as a 4th level spell. So no. I'd rank them dead last at 5th level.

[eggynack]

Druid gets dispel magic as a 4th level spell. So no. I'd rank them dead last at 5th level.

It's certainly a negative attribute, but clerics also get freedom of movement at fourth level, while druids and wizards both get heart of water a level earlier, and they get other awesome stuff like primal instinct and sleet storm, all while their companion is still reasonably competitive, so I don't think they're necessarily behind. It's also notable that greenbound summoning is still pretty insane at that level. Moreover, oddly enough, even if they are behind, they probably jump back up near the front at level six, when natural spell lets wild shape actually come online. Overland flight is a pretty important spell too, and wizards have to wait awhile longer to gain a far inferior version of it.

[Harrow]

At level 5 Druids have pretty casual access to the Snowsight/Obscuring Snow combo. They can't keep it up all day without devoting some resources to it, but even without rods of Extend or pearls of power it lasts long enough to clear a dungeon.

I'd say it's around levels 9-11 that the other casters start to overshadow Druids. Even mundanes are getting flight via magic items at this point, Summon Monster creatures are starting to get all sorts of neat SLAs and other cool things while Summon Nature's Ally continues to be so many beatsticks. Lesser then standard versions of Planar Ally and Planar Binding start coming online, pulling in much more interesting creatures than your now lackluster animal companion. More broken uses for metamagic start coming online, something Druids mostly get left out on. A lot of prestige classes are also giving out fun abilities to Clerics and Wizards, but the only prestige class worth losing Druid levels over is commonly banned.

Not that Druids are bad. They still blow CR appropriate challenges out of the water (potentially literally) all the way up to level 20. But they're front heavy without the kind of outstanding/gamebreaking options Clerics and Wizards have at higher levels.

[eggynack]

I'd say it's around levels 9-11 that the other casters start to overshadow Druids.

9 seems early. Druid 5th's are pretty amazing, ranging from control winds to blizzard to call avalanche, and that's also the level that aberration wild shape comes online. 11 seems more probable, as 6th's are like more expensive 5th's, though oread based earthquakes do come online there.

[Spore]

Some people once said that magic users are above mundanes because their power potential isn't bound by petty physics. If you are talking about the boundaries (and nothing else really makes sense because literally every group uses a different set of spell lists) you have these restrictions:

Druids: Nature and elements. What nature and the elements cannot do a druid also can't do. Force Cage? Sorry. Magic Circle against Evil? Hm, no.
Clerics: Faith and gods. What your god permits and your faith allows. If your god (and by extension your DM) doesn't want to ressurrect McGuffin xy then you cannot do it. If your god is neutral good you cannot prepare Create Undead like a Wizard. If your god is lawful, you can't have Word of Chaos to kill Devils.
Wizards: Imagination alone. A wizard's spell literally just has to fit into the written lines of gameplay. Your evil Wizard can prepare Protection from Evil, can cast Forcecage or imprison your mindless undead in a maze.

But you can't only compare spellcasting.

[eggynack]

Druids: Nature and elements. What nature and the elements cannot do a druid also can't do. Force Cage? Sorry. Magic Circle against Evil? Hm, no.
Clerics: Faith and gods. What your god permits and your faith allows. If your god (and by extension your DM) doesn't want to ressurrect McGuffin xy then you cannot do it. If your god is neutral good you cannot prepare Create Undead like a Wizard. If your god is lawful, you can't have Word of Chaos to kill Devils.
Wizards: Imagination alone. A wizard's spell literally just has to fit into the written lines of gameplay. Your evil Wizard can prepare Protection from Evil, can cast Forcecage or imprison your mindless undead in a maze.

This way of looking at it feels really limiting. Yeah, what nature and the elements cannot do, a druid also cannot do. Well, what can nature and the elements not do? Is teleportation on that list, or necromancy, or action economy breaking? Because it feels like they would be, but druids manage those things pretty well. As for clerics, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of that restriction as a function of the class, and if we're calling what your god permits and your faith allows the cleric spell list, then that covers most things out there. Power level has very little to do with flavor, because you can flavor anything any way you want. Hell, you listed forcecage on your list, and druids get a decent number of force spells, and druids can get magic circle against evil just fine as long as they're calling forth a unicorn to do it for them (valiant steed gets the best duration in the universe on that effect too). All that matters is what you can do. Unless it has an impact on mechanics, how you can do it is roughly meaningless to power level.

Edit: Etherealness is another solid example. It's a very not-druid spell, but then you cast phantom stag, giving the whole thing a vaguely natural feel, and you can be ethereal all day long.

[StreamOfTheSky]

At level 5? You get medium/small animals once per day, and no natural spell yet? How is druid clearly the best at level 5?!
Ultimately wildshape is just a way to play as a tier 3 beat stick instead of a tier 1 god (dire tortoise aside), so it shouldn't even matter for the comparison between the best casters, just as cleric's fighter-upstaging buffs shouldn't.

Druid is very very good at bullying the weaker classes. He can drop summons on a whim and they have more meat and less magic than the SM list. He can turn into a better-than-Fighter himself. He gets a pet that's about as good as a Warrior class at least. And then....SOOOOO many battlefield control spells that affect the ground (entangle, spike stones, spike growth, briar web, plant growth, the list goes on....) in a massive area that basically amount to "if you're not flying, you're not winning." But that's all that's there. He utterly sucks vs. other casters. The critical abjuration school...he either gets everything late or never at all. Dispel is late. Dim. Anchor/Lock don't exist. No AMF, either. Divinations other than scrying are also massively lacking, and teleportation is limited in where you can go, typically by plant life in the area.

Cleric, on the other hand, gets an amazing suite of anti-mage features from abjuration and divination schools, and the SM list. He is lacking in the BFC of druid, but still smacks melee himself just fine.

And wizard...just has the spells to do everything, including destroy other wizards.

Since spellcasters are the greatest threats in the game and melee-based ground-pounders the least threat, I consider druid to actually be the weakest of the three classes. This isn't about PvP. You will face NPC wizards, you will face NPC Fighters. I'd rather have the guy on my team who can mess up the former. I also think that Druid is the only one who does not get Wish nor Miracle is a significant disadvantage at higher levels. Gate, too.

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As for Shapechange....if it is allowed... I've yet to have a DM who didn't require a knowledge check or at least significant interation/combat time with a given creature in order to take its form with any polymorph effect. Druid is severely limited in this case due to class knowledge skills. Nature covers a lot, but much of it wild shape already does, and quality beats quantity. The best shapechange forms are the ones with lots of Su abilities, stuff that planes, religion, and arcana (and sometimes dungeoneering) tend to cover a lot more than Nature does. So wizard and even cleric (can get it from domains, right in core) are better poised to abuse it.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's certainly a negative attribute, but clerics also get freedom of movement at fourth level, while druids and wizards both get heart of water a level earlier, and they get other awesome stuff like primal instinct and sleet storm, all while their companion is still reasonably competitive, so I don't think they're necessarily behind. It's also notable that greenbound summoning is still pretty insane at that level. Moreover, oddly enough, even if they are behind, they probably jump back up near the front at level six, when natural spell lets wild shape actually come online. Overland flight is a pretty important spell too, and wizards have to wait awhile longer to gain a far inferior version of it.

Freedom of movement is great and all, but magical threats exist in greater quantity than grappling threats.

As a party, I would much rather have someone who can dispel that entangle rather than someone who can freedom of movement their own way out, leaving the rest of the party to its tender mercies.

[Emperor Tippy]

Generally, the order is Druid, Cleric, Wizard for levels 1-10 and Wizard, Cleric, Druid for levels 11+.

The higher you push the optimization level, the more that shifts in the favor of the wizard

[eggynack]

At level 5? You get medium/small animals once per day, and no natural spell yet? How is druid clearly the best at level 5?!

I don't think I ever even significantly included wild shape in my 5th level analysis. So, y'know, they're good at that level for the reasons I listed, rather than for the reasons I didn't. The druid list is still pretty competitive at level five, and their overall chassis/build is still likely the best there of the three, which is still somewhat important. Wild shape is a bit of a factor, but certainly not the biggest, just as an emergency combat/utility tool when you're otherwise low on options.

Freedom of movement is great and all, but magical threats exist in greater quantity than grappling threats.

As a party, I would much rather have someone who can dispel that entangle rather than someone who can freedom of movement their own way out, leaving the rest of the party to its tender mercies.

The real advantages of heart of water are that it doesn't eat up any in combat actions, and that it works every time. Dispel magic, by contrast, is somewhat inconsistent, and eats up actions. It's a great spell, and possibly better than heart of water, but the main point is that druids do have their advantages, and that their list is pretty great at these levels. I just don't think that a lack of dispel magic causes them to fall behind enough that other factors can't propel them back to somewhere near the top.

Generally, the order is Druid, Cleric, Wizard for levels 1-10 and Wizard, Cleric, Druid for levels 11+.

The higher you push the optimization level, the more that shifts in the favor of the wizard

Sounds pretty accurate, and it's the numbers I see a lot, though it's plausible that recent finds like fey ring for siabrie or aberration wild shape for nilshai form could push that number up a bit, both in terms of optimization level and character level.

[ShriekingDrake]

I agree with Tippy's breakpoint; I think level 11 is the cusp. The challenge for Wizards is actually getting to level 11. With miserable h.p. and a more limited number of spells per day, they can be more vulnerable. Don't mistake me, wizards save the day often and when they get "wizened", they can offer a versatility unlike any other class. But, in my experience, getting one to level 11 is no easy trick.