So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???

[Thillidan]

So, due to previous campaigns, I detest people who play Mages, and think they ARE the party. They control every choice we make, because "I can destroy you if you disagree."

So I made a 20th Level Character who can WRECK any mage hes against, including party members. Problem is, now Everyone in the party is scared, because one of our regular players, playing a mage, tried threatening me, so he's dead now :P

Due to some events in the campaign, He's now immortal. I should also mention, he was born without eyes. Due to this, DM granted me a bonus feat, and the "blind-fight" feat for free, due to my inability to make spot checks, or see, at all. After reading into some spell descriptors, it became apparent that "aura vision" does not require actual eyesight.
__________________________________________________ ________

Venator Veneficus

Class: Fighter 5; Occult Slayer 5; Planar Champion 10
Alignment: LN
Age: 2345 (immortal) Height: 6' 5" Weight: 190lbs Eyes: None Hair: Black Skin: Pale/Fair
HP: 180
Attributes: STR: 26 DEX: 22 CON: 12 INT: 15 WIS: 22 CHA: 8
Saves: FORT: 14 REF: 17 WILL: 20
Initaitive: +16 (+6 Dex +10 misc)
AC: 26 || Touch: 20 Flat-Footed: 22 DR 20/+1


Weapons.
Ultor:
+3 Eager, Everbright, Magebane Nodachi,
LN, Int: 19, Wis: 19, Cha: 10, (CL 20), Intelligent Item.
Speech, Telepathy, 120ft Darkvision, Blindsense, hearing.
Powers: Cast Major Image 3/day, Constant "Detect Scrying", Detect Thoughts at will.

Rod of Negation. +26 Ranged touch.

Skills: If anyone Really cares, i guess i can post...
But max ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), (the planes), Intimidate, Sense Motive.

Feats: (omg, get ready for all the feats)
Exotice weapon prof. (Nodachi), Weapon Focus (nodachi), Weapon Spec. (nodachi), Improved Critical (nodachi)
Improved initiative, Supreme Initiative.
Mage slayer, Pierce Magical Armour, Pierce Magical Concealment,
Death Blow, Blind sense 120ft, Blind-fight.

Flaws:
Born-blind, hatred for the arcane.

Special Abilities:
Just stuff from occult slayer, and Planar Champion, and then Racials.
Favored Plane (Fire), Favored Plane (Shadowfell), Favored Plane (Astral)

Items:
+2 Mithral Breast Plate of Blinking, Death Ward, Speed.
Devastation Gauntlets: crit for +4d6 damage before multiply
Boots of Swiftness: Haste 3/day, +6 Dex
Dreaming Blindfold, Cloak of Weaponry,
Lavender & Green Ioun Stones (2), Clear Ioun Stone(1), Iridescant Ioun stone(1),
Ring of Spell Turning, Ring of Protection +4.
Periapt of Wisdom +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6
__________________________________________________ _______


Need advice: What do? Is this OP? Unless mistaken, nobody can do anything around him.
Also, Anyone interested in the character, feel free to ask...

[sideswipe]

well as far as i understand, your character is only the ultimate mage slayer because your immortal. otherwise most lvl 20 mages with any sort of optimisation would win hands down.

if you get reach spell sequestered they are long gone.

if its a conjuration specialist they abrupt jaunt and then teleport on their turn.

if not they celerity when you charge and dim door or teleport.

[Esprit15]

Barely an optimizer here, but just the basic questions:

Even if you detect scrying, how do you stop it? Otherwise, you're still at risk for the rest of stuff.

Can you deal with someone that is flying around above you?

Can you deal with several summoned meat shields monsters all ganking you at once?

Can you deal with Time Stop?

What about Wish?

What if a caster targets your weapons for destruction first? If you can't kill a caster while naked and unarmed, you can't really kill any caster.

[Brookshw]

Well, didn't see any protection from having your own toys dispelled/MDJ'd so that's the biggest one that jumped at me. Something incorporal could be a problem. Not seeing much you could do to stop your opponent from running away effectively via magic.

Honestly you could be swatted in one round by a properly optimized wizard, before you even had a chance to go.

Also you're spanning editions, might want to update your DR.

Edit: oh yeah, and if you're group "threatens" one another to the point you've felt you need to make this character to preserve your agency, you might want to have a serious OOC conversation.

[sideswipe]

Well, didn't see any protection from having your own toys dispelled/MDJ'd so that's the biggest one that jumped at me. Something incorporal could be a problem. Not seeing much you could do to stop your opponent from running away effectively via magic.

Honestly you could be swatted in one round by a properly optimized wizard, before you even had a chance to go.

Also you're spanning editions, might want to update your DR.

Edit: oh yeah, and if you're group "threatens" one another to the point you've felt you need to make this character to preserve your agency, you might want to have a serious OOC conversation.

problem is as long as the mage has to sleep he will eventually kill the mage. he is immortal. so he can wait. so yes he will eventually cause the mage to die.

but he also will get owned in any fight with a mage.

[DMVerdandi]

Spoiler

Show

So, due to previous campaigns, I detest people who play Mages, and think they ARE the party. They control every choice we make, because "I can destroy you if you disagree."

So I made a 20th Level Character who can WRECK any mage hes against, including party members. Problem is, now Everyone in the party is scared, because one of our regular players, playing a mage, tried threatening me, so he's dead now :P

Due to some events in the campaign, He's now immortal. I should also mention, he was born without eyes. Due to this, DM granted me a bonus feat, and the "blind-fight" feat for free, due to my inability to make spot checks, or see, at all. After reading into some spell descriptors, it became apparent that "aura vision" does not require actual eyesight.
__________________________________________________ ________

Venator Veneficus

Class: Fighter 5; Occult Slayer 5; Planar Champion 10
Alignment: LN
Age: 2345 (immortal) Height: 6' 5" Weight: 190lbs Eyes: None Hair: Black Skin: Pale/Fair
HP: 180
Attributes: STR: 26 DEX: 22 CON: 12 INT: 15 WIS: 22 CHA: 8
Saves: FORT: 14 REF: 17 WILL: 20
Initaitive: +16 (+6 Dex +10 misc)
AC: 26 || Touch: 20 Flat-Footed: 22 DR 20/+1


Weapons.
Ultor:
+3 Eager, Everbright, Magebane Nodachi,
LN, Int: 19, Wis: 19, Cha: 10, (CL 20), Intelligent Item.
Speech, Telepathy, 120ft Darkvision, Blindsense, hearing.
Powers: Cast Major Image 3/day, Constant "Detect Scrying", Detect Thoughts at will.

Rod of Negation. +26 Ranged touch.

Skills: If anyone Really cares, i guess i can post...
But max ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), (the planes), Intimidate, Sense Motive.

Feats: (omg, get ready for all the feats)
Exotice weapon prof. (Nodachi), Weapon Focus (nodachi), Weapon Spec. (nodachi), Improved Critical (nodachi)
Improved initiative, Supreme Initiative.
Mage slayer, Pierce Magical Armour, Pierce Magical Concealment,
Death Blow, Blind sense 120ft, Blind-fight.

Flaws:
Born-blind, hatred for the arcane.

Special Abilities:
Just stuff from occult slayer, and Planar Champion, and then Racials.
Favored Plane (Fire), Favored Plane (Shadowfell), Favored Plane (Astral)

Items:
+2 Mithral Breast Plate of Blinking, Death Ward, Speed.
Devastation Gauntlets: crit for +4d6 damage before multiply
Boots of Swiftness: Haste 3/day, +6 Dex
Dreaming Blindfold, Cloak of Weaponry,
Lavender & Green Ioun Stones (2), Clear Ioun Stone(1), Iridescant Ioun stone(1),
Ring of Spell Turning, Ring of Protection +4.
Periapt of Wisdom +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6

__________________________________________________ _______


Need advice: What do? Is this OP? Unless mistaken, nobody can do anything around him.
Also, Anyone interested in the character, feel free to ask...

Honestly, At this level, it is asking to be in combat with level 20 mages. And as a blind dude with only 120 ft vision (which is pretty low, AND doesn't allow him the ability to read maps or discern direction outside of an area of mossy trees.) This puts the guy at a real disadvantage.

Now yes, I understand what you are thinking. MAGE SLAYER. GETTING THESE GUYS IN A ONE ON ON FIGHT WHERE MY STEEL IS WORTH MORE THAN HIS SPELLS!
HOL'UP.

This just tells me that you are making a bunch of assumptions.
1. You are going to be fighting wizards.
That is a bad assumption, if it's magic that is your bane, then most likely all 9th level casters are welcome.

2. They are going to be alone forever.
Really though? Now maybe if your DM is lenient, he hasn't thrown some terrible stuff at you, but its within possibility. You don't want the DM and the party deeming you unnecessary or ready to get killed, because if they throw some stuff at you that you don't want, you are dead.

A Druid/Planar shepard is wrecking your day. Honestly, A straight up druid is wrecking your day.
A wizard that came back with a load out based on countering Anti-mages is wrecking your day.
A cleric is wrecking your day.
A Spirit Shaman is wrecking your day.
And these I mean individually. If he decided to come at you with a church of boccob, you are getting smoked.
Cleric,Druid,Wizard,XX party designed for Counter-terrorism against mages? Mage-killer-killers? That is your tush.

This idea of being a mundane slayer of magical people(except those magic weapons you are holding), is something people like to think is unique and cool, but think for a second... Unless this is the first one ever, any mages guild, church, or or other place of magical learning worth anything is going to recognize the first, have options to send out an extermination squad, and just roast these jokers.

They don't need to search for food or water, housing, or anything like that. They are autonomous and intelligent, and have the best resource in the world. Magic. And upstarts think they aren't going to be dealt with accordingly.

Sure, he has detect scrying on. He knows when people are watching him, but he cannot do the same. He has no idea what they are doing on the other side, just that one person is scrying.


Your guy didn't even fathom the idea of a mage going and making a contract with a beholder, and using it to disable you with it's eyes did he. No. Of course not.
Did he think of them going and hiring giants to shoot arrows at you? No.
Did he think maybe these mages know other people and can compound their resources to kill you, a threat to their lives? No.

Did he think that they could go infiltrate a castle, IF THEY ARENT ALREADY TIED IN, get a local police force/Military, to kill your guy for them? Nope.

Weather based spells? Naw.
No save no resistance spells? Nope.
Summoning
Geas
Planar binding
Bombs
Poison
Assasination
War

No. Because the guy is blind, and isn't aware of how high the ivory tower sits. You take for granted a Dungeon Master that can make up enemies on the fly, whom are completely legal, yet your worst nightmare.
You know what is the death of an adventuring team? Another one, that is more optimized.
They thrive on getting the big bad in a room all alone, but when does that ever happen? Hell, in real life?

If the guy is strong, he understands that there is strength in numbers, and probably has a geas'd guard on hand at all times.

It's cute, but weak compared to A skilled spell caster. You throw a team at him, and he is mincemeat.

[Brookshw]

problem is as long as the mage has to sleep he will eventually kill the mage. he is immortal. so he can wait. so yes he will eventually cause the mage to die.

but he also will get owned in any fight with a mage.

Meh, that's easy enough to work around. Gotta find the mage after all and mind blank/teleport/planeshift/extradimensional spaces make that a bit of a challenge.

But again for emphasis, this isn't a mechanics problem, its a mechanics solution to a larger issue that needs to ne discussed OOC.

[Beardbarian]

Even a Warlock would laugh at you
This is not a Mage-Slayer, is a Mage-With-Some-Mental-Disease-Slayer-Maybe

[Vaz]

Meanwhile, Wizard is sat in his own Private Demiplane using Astral Projection to gate in Great Wyrm Dragons.

Your move.

[Esprit15]

The best way for a mundane to kill mages is to pick up a spellbook and start studying / go to the local church and start praying / go out into the forest and start getting in tune with nature / etc. Otherwise, you're just not going to ever have a chance of comparing to them.

Prepared casters are versatile. Prepared casters are powerful. There is a reason that among optimizers they have a tier that is all their own, and it's the top one. If they know what they're fighting (hint: today it's the guy in a tin can who wants to fight wizards with a metal stick) and they have the resources (hint: at level 20, they do), they will probably win.

[Segev]

Is this "immortality" of his something you've obtained through a combination of build mechanics, or something the DM has given you?

I ask because your response of "he's immortal; he might get owned in a straight-up fight, but the mage has to rest sometime" makes it sound less like you've built the ultimate mage-slayer, and more like you've got a powerful trick that is not available without DM fiat which you can use to eventually take revenge on anybody who you couldn't otherwise beat.

Not trying to fault or argue with you, here, but you made specific claims about your build being a "mage-slayer," so I want to see if that crucial component is part of your build. It seems like it's what you're hanging the "mage-slaying" ability on.

[Seppo87]

Excuse me, I don't see Iron Heart Surge in your build. How do you deal with forcecages or repel metal?

[Somensjev]

so, level 20, right?

this is a completely unoptimised wizard

important feats: arcane thesis (mage's disjunction), sculpt spell, enlarge spell

so, an enlarged, sculpted (120ft line), mage's disjunction is a 9th level spell, and has a maximum range of 220ft how far can you see again?

so, now you know you're being attacked by an enemy you can't see, and all your magic items are useless, and all magical effects that're acting upon you end, there's even a 20% chance of artifacts being rendered useless
so, you're effectively blind, have no toys, and you're fighting a 20th level wizard with all but one spell for the day. have fun

also, you're immortal? okay, the wizard uses time stop (or just makes sure he's far enough away from you), wishes for a scroll of an ice assassin of you, then does the simple fusion+astral seed combo, and becomes you, with all his abilities on top of yours, have fun fighting a better version of yourself


to do this, the wizard must use three spells, a scroll, and two power stones i really hope i have all my information correct, i had to do a number of google searches to check this method

[Zanos]

I'm less concerned about the build and more concerned that you respond to a threat with killing another character.

That said even at low optimization(which this group seems like), many very basic spells have a range of 400+40ft/CL. If a wizard flies above this character and just throws fireballs at him, he'll die eventually since he can't "see" beyond 120 ft. It's less an issue that your character is overpowered and more an issue that your group shouldn't be killing one another and that the mage player has no idea what he's doing. I'm assuming that immortally doesn't stop you from being knocked unconscious, but even if it did the wizard could just cast imprisonment, or temporal stasis, or trap the soul.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, most of the problems have been covered, but a lot of people are saying "Wizard 400ft above you)", but I'm saying "Wizard 50ft above you with wings". You can't fly. This is part of why Vow of Poverty monks don't work (just part): they can't fly. Flying is important.

[Zweisteine]

*Ahem*

I present to you, the one, the only, The Ultimate Anti-Mage:

Spoiler: Dare you look within?

Show

Pun-Pun

Obey the Tenth Commandment.

---

---

Aside from that, I have three things to say:

1. How do you have darkvision when blind?

2. As DMVerdandi (and various other people) said, vision with a limited range hurts a lot. A Wizard might just stand 200 feet away and hurl orbs of force/fire/whatever at you all day. If you prepare an action to absorb the spell, that's fine, but they might have more than one to cast, and your Ioun Stone will eventually run out of space. They also can also stand somethng like 1000 feet away and hurl chain lightning and other powerful spells at you. And you have no defenses against spells like apocalypse from the sky and meteor swarm (which no self-respecting Wizard should be using, anyway).

3. Remember that a Wizard's best strategy is in control and save-or-suck/die spells. What do you do when you're suddenly encased in walls of iron/force? What can you say to a wish? And when they realize you're easily deflecting everything they cast at you, what do you do when they polymorph, or worse, shapechange into a dragon, the Tarrasque, or something better?


EDIT: Thought of some more stuff.

Is your immortality bound to your body or your soul? If it's the body, you are highly susceptible to, say, Mind Switch, or Magic Jar.
If it's bound to your soul, there are methods of sealing a soul in a box, and locking it in places nobody will ever find it (such as the Tomb of Horrors, half way to the nearest star, or in Vecna's personal library).


Here's how I suspect your fight with a well-made Wizard might go. Keep in mind that this Wizard is not nearly as optimized as many others.

Spoiler

Show

Encounter 1:
Round 0: Wizard rolls higher initiative due to various bonuses and/or spells.
Round 1: Wizard casts takes a look at you, visually identifies the ioun stones, casts time stop.
Round 1.1-2: Wizard gives you a closer look, figuring out what defenses you have.
Round 1.3: Wizard casts rope trick, goes inside, and pulls in the rope.
Round 2 to hour 8: Wizard prepares spells to find and defeat you.

Wizard locates you with spells.

Encounter 2:
Round 0: Wizard gets higher initiative. You also haven't seen the Wizard yet, because he's too far away.
Round 1: Wizard moves directly above you 200 feet. You still haven't seen him.
Round 2: Wizard drops closer to you, and traps you in a barred forcecage. You have no way out, and spend the round preparing to counter spells or attack.
Round 3-5: Wizard uses Mordenkainen's disjunction to break your ring, your best ioun stone, and something else.
Round 4: Wizard puts you in a second, non-barred forcecage.
Rounds 5-X: Wizard casts various entrapping spells on you.
Round X+1: Wizard goes into a rope trick and begins to rest.
Hours later, he emerges with more useful spells, and finishes entrapping you.

[Vaz]

Excuse me, I don't see Iron Heart Surge in your build. How do you deal with forcecages or repel metal?

Because IHS'ing "The Wizard" is cheating.

[lytokk]

I always find it odd when someone proclaims hatred for magic and then proceeds to wear and use magical items. But maybe that's just me. I know some of this could be crafted via divine means but still. Hating one form of magic yet embracing another.

[Zweisteine]

Because IHS'ing "The Wizard" is cheating.

But IHSing a spell the Wizard used to trap you is not.

EDIT:

I always find it odd when someone proclaims hatred for magic and then proceeds to wear and use magical items. But maybe that's just me. I know some of this could be crafted via divine means but still. Hating one form of magic yet embracing another.

Divine magic is the power of the gods, a righteous magic given power by their holiness. Arcane magic is an abomination against nature, man subjugating the power that should be the gods' for personal gain.

EDIT 2:

Problem is, now Everyone in the party is scared, because one of our regular players, playing a mage, tried threatening me, so he's dead now :P

Don't do this. Party killing is never advisable, unless all players involved agree to it.

[Seppo87]

I always find it odd when someone proclaims hatred for magic and then proceeds to wear and use magical items. But maybe that's just me. I know some of this could be crafted via divine means but still. Hating one form of magic yet embracing another.

You could be a psion or an ur-priest without contradictions tho.

[Dalebert]

My first thought was you killed an idiot who doesn't know how to play a wizard for the many reasons already given. This guy had two weaknesses that immediately come to mind. First is already stated many times--he didn't really know how to play a wizard. The second is that he had some sort of trust in you as a member of his party and allowed you catch him off-guard.

I'm less concerned about the build and more concerned that you respond to a threat with killing another character.

Yes. I'm curious of the specifics of the "threat". The fact that the rest of the party is scared of you now makes me think you play your character as being very douchey and probably make the game unfun for the rest of the party and the threat was in response to a valid concern about your behavior. Were you picked on a lot IRL and are using RPGs as a kind of pillow-punching therapy for that? I've witnessed a lot of people with issues who bring their issues into the game and that's a recipe for a short and not fun game that leads to everyone quitting.

I understand the frustration with wizards and magic-using tier 1 and 2 characters dominating the game. It's tempting to chalk this up to poor game design but I think it runs deeper than that. D&D and many other RPGs are based on a fantasy world where things are possible that aren't possible in our mundane world, either through magic or world-changing advanced science. That's integral to the fun of such fantasies. The whole point of magic is to give an unfair advantage. Character types who don't take advantage of that, practically by definition, will be disadvantaged to those who do. And that brings us back to how your character is a hypocrite who is uses lots of magic, now including divine magic that makes him immortal, to hate and kill magic-users.

Was it Ars Magica that finally acknowledged this and all the PCs were variations of magic-users? I may have the system wrong that I played once. No one played fighters or rogues. It was considered pointless to play mundanes in a magical fantasy world. Those were NPCs that you hired to do the boring mundane stuph that needed to be done.

[dascarletm]

I always find it odd when someone proclaims hatred for magic and then proceeds to wear and use magical items. But maybe that's just me. I know some of this could be crafted via divine means but still. Hating one form of magic yet embracing another.

Oh, I'm sure you can find plenty of historical examples where people are hypocritica,l or make a large dichotomy over some small difference....

I say it is par for the course in a pseudo-medieval setting.

snip

I always wonder why in these discussions it is assumed that magic users have some sort of coalition, or common interest that binds them, always. It's not RAW, and fairly campaign specific. Even if it would make sense to have, I've not seen one anywhere close to the scope in a published campaign setting.

[Zanos]

I always wonder why in these discussions it is assumed that magic users have some sort of coalition, or common interest that binds them, always. It's not RAW, and fairly campaign specific. Even if it would make sense to have, I've not seen one anywhere close to the scope in a published campaign setting.

Even if they disagree, being made aware that there's somebody walking around who is reasonably high leveled who's entire purpose in life is to hate and kill people who use arcane magic is probably going to cause them to take action. Unless they don't consider that person a threat.

In general wizards in particular are assumed to have some sort of organization because they benefit more from cooperation than pretty much any other class. Trading spells can make you a much more powerful wizard on the cheap.

[Vhaidara]

I always wonder why in these discussions it is assumed that magic users have some sort of coalition, or common interest that binds them, always. It's not RAW, and fairly campaign specific. Even if it would make sense to have, I've not seen one anywhere close to the scope in a published campaign setting.

First, what Zanos said.

Second, that wasn't really "There's a massive organization of wizards". It's "hey, this wizard has a friend who's a cleric, and a friend who's a druid". Which makes sense, since they can provide spells he can't cast for item creation or what have you.

[dascarletm]

Even if they disagree, being made aware that there's somebody walking around who is reasonably high leveled who's entire purpose in life is to hate and kill people who use arcane magic is probably going to cause them to take action. Unless they don't consider that person a threat.

In general wizards in particular are assumed to have some sort of organization because they benefit more from cooperation than pretty much any other class. Trading spells can make you a much more powerful wizard on the cheap.

Yes, even if it would make sense, mass communication networks, and other such modern luxuries do not exist. Sure, you could set up something similar with magic, but such massive networks don't exist in the settings I've read as I recall.

Though I did say before that it may make sense, but it would be in a custom setting, which isn't RAW, and from RAW is where we argue.
The point I'm trying to make is that I could just as easily say that in the setting wizards are all recluses, and never speak with one-another. They all prefer to be hermits.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't possible or probable, I'm saying it isn't a given, and shouldn't be treated as such.

First, what Zanos said.

Second, that wasn't really "There's a massive organization of wizards". It's "hey, this wizard has a friend who's a cleric, and a friend who's a druid". Which makes sense, since they can provide spells he can't cast for item creation or what have you.

I'm not arguing the wizard won't/can't have friends. My post was directed to other elements.

[Brookshw]

Yes, even if it would make sense, mass communication networks, and other such modern luxuries do not exist. Sure, you could set up something similar with magic, but such massive networks don't exist in the settings I've read as I recall.

Though I did say before that it may make sense, but it would be in a custom setting, which isn't RAW, and from RAW is where we argue.
The point I'm trying to make is that I could just as easily say that in the setting wizards are all recluses, and never speak with one-another. They all prefer to be hermits.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't possible or probable, I'm saying it isn't a given, and shouldn't be treated as such.


I'm not arguing the wizard won't/can't have friends. My post was directed to other elements.

The network is somewhat ingrained in the game, just look at the original council of 8 in Greyhawk (before the settings writing was taken over). There's a traditional element to it. Great mages from across settings coming together to trade spells is also something that's existed in the past.

[dascarletm]

I suppose the majority of that post wasn't in line with the whole "large magical organization." So my previous comments are mostly irrelevant.

[dascarletm]

The network is somewhat ingrained in the game, just look at the original council of 8 in Greyhawk (before the settings writing was taken over). There's a traditional element to it. Great mages from across settings coming together to trade spells is also something that's existed in the past.

Having a meeting spot that people gather to (like a large trade city) is a far cry from a communication network comparable of the modern day's. It's all word of mouth, it would travel much slower. Which helps this sort of character concept.

[Seppo87]

I always wonder why in these discussions it is assumed that magic users have some sort of coalition, or common interest that binds them, always. It's not RAW, and fairly campaign specific. Even if it would make sense to have, I've not seen one anywhere close to the scope in a published campaign setting.

Because the fluff text in the Occult Slayer entry said so.
Wizards indeed team up and raid Occult Slayers meetings with methodical, organized precision.

[Vaz]

[QUOTE=Zweisteine;17789548]But IHSing a spell the Wizard used to trap you is not.