The proper name for evil Saints?

[Jon_Dahl]

This is mostly D&D related, but not necessarily.

Fictional religions have saints, such as Saint Cuthbert of Greyhawk. Saints need not be gods like Saint Cuthbert, but just a part of a religion.

I was thinking about a having an evil temple in my game (D&D) which is named after a saint of the religion and the clergy follows his traditions.
I find it hard to have him called a "saint", since the spells are exclusively named with unholy names. They even use unholy water, which is called just that!
And I know that there's Saint Kargoth, but he was an actual saint before his fall.

Does anyone have a good fantasy counterpart for saints? Or should evil saint be called saints? Or do they all need an invidual moniker?

[LunaLovecraft]

I wouldn't find it unsurprising for them to be called Saints. I mean, bad guys think they're the good guys, right?

Unless they're specifically trying to mess with people and think that's bad and don't care... in which case Saint is a good name for tricking random passerbys.

Of course, if we're looking for a new name, I suppose we could see where Saints got their name from and go from there. Saint comes from the latin word Sanctus. Doing some googling on the latin word for unholy in the sense we're using it returns the words sceleratus and defanatus as the two better choices it seems, as unholy seems to frequently translate into godless and that's clearly not applicable here. (I by no means speak latin, if I'm messing something up feel free to correct me)

From those two I could say...

Scelerate
Defane
Selerate
Defanat

Something along those lines. Defane sounds nicest in my opinion, I could probably see someone being called Defane Brown or Defane John. Selerate Jane also sounds pretty easy to say and functional.

[Erik Vale]

Don't go with Defanat, sounds to much like Definite, which will just confuse people.

[LibraryOgre]

I think, in part, you need a definition of what a saint is... what does it MEAN for someone to be a saint, instead of just a priest?

IMO, I think you wind up with something like FRs Chosen... people, not necessarily priests, who embody a fraction of a deity's power. They have powers above and beyond a priest, frequently because the Chosen will have their own skills... they advanced to X level as a whatever, then got their Chosen powers.

If you go that route, you've pretty well got your answer... "Chosen of X". You can have Saint Cadderly of Deneir, or Cadderly, Chosen of Deneir, and they're pretty much interchangeable.

[T-Mick]

"Interdicient", or some other variant of Interdictus.

Sanctus is ultimately derived from Sanctio, which means "sanction". If you take that to mean "sanction in the sense of approval", then I would consider "interdict" to be the opposite.

"Pest" is another Latin-derived word that works, surprisingly. It comes from Pestis, which is a curse. There are other words for curse that sound cooler, but that's the one I remember. Mosquitoes are curses. They help remember Pestis.

[Socksy]

St. Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral(sometimes, depending on what book or magazine you're looking at), so I'd assume Saint would work fine for any alignment at a push. Defane and Selerate sound awesome though.

[LibraryOgre]

"Interdicient", or some other variant of Interdictus.

Sanctus is ultimately derived from Sanctio, which means "sanction". If you take that to mean "sanction in the sense of approval", then I would consider "interdict" to be the opposite.

"Pest" is another Latin-derived word that works, surprisingly. It comes from Pestis, which is a curse. There are other words for curse that sound cooler, but that's the one I remember. Mosquitoes are curses. They help remember Pestis.

So.... Tuanta Quiro Miancay?

[veti]

Blessed?

Master?

Darth?

Edit: although really, I agree that there's no reason to suppose an evil church's terminology would be any different from a good church's.

[Larkas]

Defanatus.

Defane sounds about right.

[Draken]

Following T-mic's last line, I would go with something that belongs in the English language (as opposed to importing Latin terms) and holds a similar but opposite meaning to Saint, perhaps Curst (although that is already a creature in Forgotten Realms).

Of course, if you take 'Saint' to merely be 'an individual enshrined by the faith for his or her deeds' then the word works fine in spite of alignment. At least when used by other followers. Enemies would use a different and pejorative word of their choice.

[Waker]

It might also help if you gave us some details on this evil temple and what are some of the pertinent aspects of the religion. So if you were to have an evil temple of Ur-Priests for instance, they might follow the teachings of an Apostate.

[Thrudd]

...Taints?

[Erik Vale]

... No.

Also, you might want to update your tittle, cause right now the correct answer to it should probably be prayer.

[BWR]

'Saint' works for evil too. Back in 1e days there was a Dragon article about saints, which included some evil ones.

[Jon_Dahl]

... No.

Also, you might want to update your tittle, cause right now the correct answer to it should probably be prayer.

All right...

[BWR]

I suppose you could go for 'proxy' as they do in Planescape. Proxies are favored servants of gods. They don't necessarily get any special powers or are even clerics, but they exemplify and serve their patron in a truly exceptional way.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"Profanes" could work, if they really wanted to appear as they do. The mindset would be that of rebellion against the Good folks: clearly identifying themselves to people who sympathize with them. Also, edgy teenage rebellion and whatnot.

[Millennium]

Honestly, I'd keep using "Saint" even for evil faiths because it's uncomfortable. Some evil faiths might even revel in that discomfort.

If I had to pick a different title for an evil faith, though, I'd probably go with "Dread".

[Segev]

How about "Elect" (as in "those selected as the best") or "Dominus?"

Perhaps "Fane," shortened from "profane."

[TeChameleon]

Huh. From what I remember, historically, the 'evil' equivalent to a saint would be a heretic (both terms having been somewhat devalued over the years... originally, to be branded a heretic, you had to be actively teaching something that went against mainstream doctrine).

So 'Heretic' could work... 'Gnossos' ('one who knows') might be a way to go as well, since there historically actually was a Gnostic heresy way back in the day.

Oh, and the usual caveat applies- I'm working from memory here and could be wildly, stupidly wrong. If I am, sorry >.O

[LibraryOgre]

Huh. From what I remember, historically, the 'evil' equivalent to a saint would be a heretic (both terms having been somewhat devalued over the years... originally, to be branded a heretic, you had to be actively teaching something that went against mainstream doctrine).

So 'Heretic' could work... 'Gnossos' ('one who knows') might be a way to go as well, since there historically actually was a Gnostic heresy way back in the day.

Oh, and the usual caveat applies- I'm working from memory here and could be wildly, stupidly wrong. If I am, sorry >.O

Not really; as you point out, a heretic is someone who is preaching unauthorized doctrine (such as the devotees of Pelor, the Burning Hate). In a society where there are a lot of different faiths, each with their own doctrine, an evil saint might be preaching the purest form of the doctrine... just of an evil deity.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

How about "Elect" (as in "those selected as the best") or "Dominus?"

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh. I really like Elect. It says miles about their mentality.

[Tridax]

You could also try "Hierophant". It derives from ancient greek and means to be an interpreter of sacred mysteries and stuff.

[Mewtarthio]

What about Prophet? Prophets communicate directly with their gods, plus they tend to be pretty crazy by laity standards.

[veti]

What about Prophet? Prophets communicate directly with their gods, plus they tend to be pretty crazy by laity standards.

There's the usual problem with using a word that already has a specific meaning in this context...

A "prophet", pretty much by definition, challenges orthodoxy. I'm pretty sure any church would not want to limit its saints to people who do that. Prophets may be saints, but not all saints would be prophets.

[Psyren]

"Elect" is too neutral, and also invokes images of a committee (which is admittedly the case for many Saints too, but not all of them.)

I am throwing my vote behind "Fane" as that is pithy and sounds sufficiently evil.

[Lord Torath]

Problem with "Fane" is that it already means "temple or shrine." TSR adventure D3 had the Great Fane of Lolth, which was a temple. I kind of like Selerate.

[Mastikator]

Why shouldn't an evil saint just be called a saint? What makes a saint a saint isn't that they're good, it's that they're pious and perform miracles. If you serve an evil god then being pious is evil.

[Psyren]

Problem with "Fane" is that it already means "temple or shrine." TSR adventure D3 had the Great Fane of Lolth, which was a temple. I kind of like Selerate.

I don't see this as a big deal. Words can have multiple meanings - "temple" for instance also means "flat part of the side of one's head."

Even when "fane" means temple, it's typically used to connote "evil temple" specifically.

Why shouldn't an evil saint just be called a saint? What makes a saint a saint isn't that they're good, it's that they're pious and perform miracles. If you serve an evil god then being pious is evil.

Because saint has become associated with good by connotation. Yes, you can technically have evil saints, or evil religions that consider themselves holy and the good religions unholy, but in a gaming context you'll almost never see those usages applied that way.

[Mastikator]

All the more reason to just go with the word "saint" then.

Words like "profane" and "unholy" are derogatory words used by "good" religions to describe "evil" religions, if the "evil" religion is the main religion then there's no reason for them to insult themselves, an evil god is still divine and holy. An evil temple is still sacred. An evil priest is still pious.
And an evil religion thinking itself good is extremely common.