[PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

[Ilorin Lorati]

I think Shaman ended up fair, but not as interesting as it could have been. They could have done a lot more with the spirits features... c'est la vie.

[Craft (Cheese)]

It's possible Shaman's MAD was intentional; I wouldn't really know as I have no interest in them either and didn't participate in any of their playtest threads.

Two things. Both of these apply to the Arcanist as well:

First, Grod's Law. MAD doesn't actually make a problematic ability less of a problem in most cases, it just makes it more annoying to use. Smart players know how to work around the problem.

Second, the relevant pieces that are MAD (Spirits and Exploits) aren't even the problematic areas of the classes to begin with! You can completely dump CHA for both classes and have no problems at all with your spells.

[Snowbluff]

Indeed. The worst arcanist exploits run on cha. Even if they were based on int, no one would use them.

[Psyren]

I'm not saying that a Cha-less Shaman would be any less of a "problem" than a Cha-less Cleric. What I am saying is that they may have had some abilities use Cha for thematic/flavor reasons.

You're the one assuming that, if the use of Cha for some abilities was intentional, that they did this to power down the Shaman - but this assumption is unfounded.

[Snowbluff]

Perhaps our assumption isn't any less unfounded than yours? Cha isn't a stat for either druids or witches, either. Well, druids have one feature that never comes up.

[Starbuck_II]

Warpriest. Warpriest is a badass. They changed fervor so it runs on Wisdom now, which is wonderful for warpriests. They didn't need fighter feats, but they get fighter feats, so whatever.

I'm somewhere between ticked and laughing my ass off at warpriest archetypes. They have a cavalier, rogue, paladin, and monk type archetype among others. The first two are very meh, but provide several points based on rogue or cavalier that are at least mildly useful.

The monk based and paladin based archetypes, in my opinion, try very hard to make the paladin and monk entirely obsolete. It may be possible to successfully debate the Paladin, but the monk archetype provides the warpriest most if not all the good parts provided by stock monk... and it still has warpriest bonus feats and spell progression.

I would say, aside from the classes that recieved 9th lvl spells, the warpriest is easily the strongest combat class in the book, possibly just the strongest.

True, but they nerfed the Playtest version. It got full Bab with its sacred weapon (the one that has weapon focus in it). Now it doesn't.

[Ilorin Lorati]

(Unlettered / Blood) Arcanist is actually the first time I know of where Sorcerer bloodlines and the Witch spell lists interact, I've noticed. Hrrrrrrrrrrm. Are there any wicked witch spells which wizard wouldn't work with?

[AttilaTheGeek]

Why does Sacred Weapon damage replace regular weapon damage instead of stacking with it? If a Warpriest uses a greatsword- which they should- then Sacred Weapon is a class feature they get at level 1 that does literally nothing until level 20.

[Kudaku]

Why does Sacred Weapon damage replace regular weapon damage instead of stacking with it? If a Warpriest uses a greatsword- which they should- then Sacred Weapon is a class feature they get at level 1 that does literally nothing until level 20.

Basically it's a way to make sure that a warpriest can use the favored weapon of his deity when he'd otherwise have little to no reason to use said weapon. It's intended to be an "enabler" rather than a damage boost ability.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Because Balance, hue hue hue. Also, not all class features need to be equally useful to every build.

In all honesty though, I kinda like that I can have traditionally bad or utility weapons do fair damage with Warpriest; if it were a buff rather an a replacement they'd still be really far behind the aforementioned greatsword.

[Kudaku]

I actually think the Sacred Weapon mechanic is the best thing about the Warpriest, it opens up tons of really cool builds that would otherwise be utterly impractical. The 24 strength 8 dex warpriest TWFing with battle pois, for example.

[Saidoro]

Purrhaps. The ~32 damage per hit for no really cost or requirements sounds like it's an easy grab.

That's not actually how it works.

With a keen eye and calculating mind, an investigator can assess the mettle of his opponent to take advantage of gaps in talent and training. At 4th level, an investigator can use a move action to study a single enemy that he can see. Upon doing so, he adds 1/2 his investigator level as an insight bonus on melee attack rolls and as a bonus on damage rolls against the creature. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) or until he deals damage with a studied strike, whichever comes first. The bonus on damage rolls is precision damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an investigator's studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator's studied combat again for 24 hours unless the investigator expends one use of inspiration when taking the move action to use this ability.

Studied strike ends studied combat, you need a move action each time you want to activate it, and it can only be used once per target per day without spending inspiration. There's a talent to make it take only a swift action(instead of a standard action because editing is for chumps), but it's still only a one per round thing, and drains inspiration right quick if you use it too often.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Anyone figured out what the Elven Favored class bonus for Arcanist should be read as? Because it seems to be either hilariously broken or near 100% useless depending on the reading.


Edit: I accidentally a whole class.

[Snowbluff]

That's not actually how it works.

Studied strike ends studied combat, you need a move action each time you want to activate it, and it can only be used once per target per day without spending inspiration. There's a talent to make it take only a swift action(instead of a standard action because editing is for chumps), but it's still only a one per round thing, and drains inspiration right quick if you use it too often.

There we go. I was wonder where the catch was. I think it may have been a better idea to put that limitation in the Studied Strike text to make it more clear.

This pretty much makes it worse then Vivisectionist, since a vivisectionist's stats are naturally higher thanks to mutagens.

[Bhaakon]

Anyone figured out what the Elven Favored class bonus for Arcanist should be read as? Because it seems to be either hilariously broken or near 100% useless depending on the reading.

I read it as +1 to the maximum size of the Arcanist's arcane reservoir.

[Psyren]

Perhaps our assumption isn't any less unfounded than yours? Cha isn't a stat for either druids or witches, either. Well, druids have one feature that never comes up.

My point is that Grod's Law only matters if "balancing" was their aim with making Cha matter. Again, even if it wasn't an oversight of some kind, it could have been done for flavor or thematic reasons.

There we go. I was wonder where the catch was. I think it may have been a better idea to put that limitation in the Studied Strike text to make it more clear.

This pretty much makes it worse then Vivisectionist, since a vivisectionist's stats are naturally higher thanks to mutagens.

The alchemist in general and the vivisectionist in particular are meant to the be the better combat choices. Investigators can hold their own but they are weaker in a fight.

I wouldn't expect Sherlock to outfight Hyde, though there may be a LXG that covers exactly that scenario for all I know.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I read it as +1 to the maximum size of the Arcanist's arcane reservoir.

Yeah, that's probably what it is - which makes it kinda useless, but I couldn't expect even Paizo to put out something that would effectively double the power of a central mechanic like that.

[deuxhero]

Heaven's Spirit Animal does not list a maneuverability for it slow flight.

Is there a rule that gives a default (average?) for this kind of situation?

Any cheep ways to boost this flight speed (I've seen someone mention a feat that gives it to any AC, so doesn't need to be something the Shaman can get)?

How many spirits are there total for Shaman?

[Bhaakon]

Yeah, that's probably what it is - which makes it kinda useless, but I couldn't expect even Paizo to put out something that would effectively double the power of a central mechanic like that.

I was a little surprised myself, but, as you say, raising the maximum isn't all that useful most of the time. Since they go away when you rest, adding extra points is generally too expensive to be worthwhile.

[Arbane]

OMG! My oracles would love this. Just recently I decided for my Oracle of Life to invest ranks in Use Magic Device so he can use a wand of Bestow Grace, a Paladin spell. To get this ability as a feat would be supreme. I was going to take some other feat next level but it can wait if this is available. Need to speak with my DM. I'd even consider this for my Oracle of Dark Tapestry despite him really needing Silent Spell as his next feat. Tough decision.

Same here. My Battle Oracle has terrible luck with saves, despite getting a free reroll once a session (houserule) AND one from the Second Chance trait. And I'm pretty sure our group's Monk will like the Pummeling Stance.

[Shinken]

I noticed the Sneaky weapon quality. 1/day sucks, but getting sneak attack when you normally wouldn't be able to could be a lifesaver for sneaky types.

[Zrak]

Am I the only one who's massively disappointed by the Shaman? I mean assuming the information here is correct, the class still has the massive basic editing errors from the playtest, like how some of her spirit abilities and hexes are randomly based on Wisdom and some are randomly based on Charisma (an aftereffect of copy-pasting oracle revelations).

I'm honestly just pleasantly surprised that some of the hexes actually come from the witch. During the playtest, it really seemed like they weren't going to add any witch hexes to the class that was ostensibly half witch. A lot of the spirit hexes are still pretty galling, but now at least there's a viable alternative to spirit hexes that adds some witch flavor to the class and even a little bit of unique character. Even so, if they fixed absolutely nothing else about the class, they should have at least fixed the Heavens spirit hex lure of the heavens. It's just silly to have it give flight for minutes/level three full levels after the Heavens spirit grants overland flight as a bonus spell.
They also didn't even remotely fix arcane enlightenment being strictly superior as a wandering hex and/or basically giving you every spell in the game, but paragon surge already exists so, I mean, I guess the ship already sailed on that one. Maybe there'll be errata someday.

It's possible Shaman's MAD was intentional; I wouldn't really know as I have no interest in them either and didn't participate in any of their playtest threads.

I was pretty active in the Shaman threads during the playtest. I never really got the impression that it was intentional, but never really got the impression that it was unintentional, either. It just generally didn't seem like a concern, or at least not a concern serious enough to warrant editing the oracle revelations they copy/pasted.

[Azurefenrir]

Arcane Enlightenment seems a bit weird as written, since you need 10+Intelligence to cast the spells that it grants. That means that if you left INT at 10 like a dual Wisdom-Charisma caster with 3/4 BaB and apparent melee capabilities (WHY?!) probably did, you will need to pick up a +9 Int from somewhere to cast 9th level spells. Even with INT 13 you still need to add a +6 INT item to the list of stuff you need to buy.

Also, human ACF allows shamans to pick up more spells from the Cleric list, which makes them a bit more versatile.

-

I'm curious about how the hex will work with the Spirit Guide archetype for Oracle, though. Spirit Guide specifically gets hexes from the wondering spirit that she chooses, though oracle is a spontaneous caster instead of a prepared, so "adding to the spells prepared" might mean that the hex does nothing for the archetype. If the hex still functions for Oracles, it is now Paragon Surge 2.0 and Spirit Guide oracles are now the new way to reach Tier 0. If not, Spirit Guide remains a good archetype - being able to cycle through different spirit spells is pretty powerful already, and while a lot of the shaman hexes are pretty bad compared to the better oracle revelations, being able to choose daily is still a nice boon. Meanwhile, extra revelation is always available as a feat.

[NightbringerGGZ]

There we go. I was wonder where the catch was. I think it may have been a better idea to put that limitation in the Studied Strike text to make it more clear.

This pretty much makes it worse then Vivisectionist, since a vivisectionist's stats are naturally higher thanks to mutagens.

Keep in mind that the Investigator isn't intended to be an optimal combat specialist. It can still wind up being quite good though. You'll get the Mutagen discovery at level 3 as your first Talent and by level 4 you'll have Extracts to boost your primary combat stat. You can also pick up that Swift Action studied combat by level 5, though I'm not yet convinced it is required.

I've been playing an Investigator and I'm actually doing quite well in combat so far, and this is without the ACG. I have an 18 Int, which guarantees me 3 - 4 rounds of Studied Combat per target. With my Rogue ally as a flanking buddy, we're able to shred just about any enemy in this amount of time. When Kirin Strike comes online and I'm getting Dex plus Intx2 plus 1/2 my level as bonus damage every round I'll be doing quite well. Adding Sickening Strikes into the mix is going to be icing on the cake.

If you don't mind dipping, consider the following Investigator build:

Human Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1 / Investigator (Empiricist) X

Feats / Talents / Relevant Class Features:
01 - Weapon Focus (Rapier), Fencing Grace, Inspired Finesse, Combat Reflexes
03 - Power Attack
04 - Alchemist Discovery: Mutagen
05 - Improved Unarmed Strike
06 - Sickening Offensive
07 - Kirin Style
08 - Quick Study
09 - Kirin Strike

At level 1 you get to use your Dex modifier for both attack rolls and damage rolls with a Rapier. With a 16 Int you'll also have a Panache Pool of 4 thanks to Inspired Finesse, which uses your Charisma Mod (minimum 1) and Intelligence Mod (minimum 1). You also get to play with Derring-Do as well as Opportune Parry & Riposte.

This build gives you good damage per attack, high attack bonuses, good defensive bonuses and a number of options for your Swift Actions and AoOs. You can also drop Kirin Style from the build, freeing up 3 feats for a bunch of Extra Talent feats if you want more of a support build.

[Larkas]

Intercept Charge is a tanking feat with such potential, very akin to FF's Cover... Why did they have to go and make it Teamwork? -_-

[NightbringerGGZ]

Intercept Charge is a tanking feat with such potential, very akin to FF's Cover... Why did they have to go and make it Teamwork? -_-

Probably another feat intended for Hunters and Investigators. This is a decent defensive option if you're going with a ranged Hunter who sends his pet out into melee.

[grarrrg]

Skald is up on the SRD

Can grant Rage Powers to allies, and
"If the rage power's effects depend on the skald's ability modifier (such as lesser spirit totem), affected allies use the skald's ability modifier instead of their own for the purposes of this effect."

Lesser Spirit Totem actually sounds like a fun idea!
At least for lower levels, Greater Spirit Totem doesn't help the Damage too much, but provides a massive reach increase.

Turning any random "pile-o-soldiers" into an Army of the Damned.
Sadly, due to Morale Bonuses and whatnot, cannot be used to boost an _actual_ army of the damned...


Also looks like a pretty sweet Cohort option for a Barbarian character.

[PsyBomb]

Skald power-sharing: because Leadership wasn't OP enough to begin with

In all seriousness, if your party is Melee-heavy, he's going to be having LOADS of fun.

[Jacob.Tyr]

I'm only keeping up to date from the pfsrd, but do the new classes have Archetypes? I only see them for the bloodrager and the Arcanist.

[Psyren]

I'm only keeping up to date from the pfsrd, but do the new classes have Archetypes? I only see them for the bloodrager and the Arcanist.

Yes, they all do - no telling when they'll all be in the PFSRD though.