Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

[Beelzebub1111]

For ease so I dont' have to click back and forth between tabs. Bolded for clarification.

Summon Creature: A spellshaper may use mana to summon creatures. At second level he can summon monsters off the Summon Nature's Ally I (including those Granted by the Child of Winter feat from the Eberron campaign setting), Summon Undead I, and Summon Monster I lists. Every even levels after that, they may cast from the list one level higher. He must take 1 full round to cast the spell and spend an amount of mana equal to half the spell level of the list he intends to summon from rounded up. If the summon has one of the traits listed below, he must spend at least one mana of the corresponding color. If the trait appears for more than one color, he may spend either color (A creature with the fey type may be summoned with blue or green mana). If the summon has traits from two separate lists, both colors must be spent (A fiendish shark must have both Blue and Black mana spent to summon it). The creature remains until it is destroyed, or until the spellshaper's manabonds are broken. A spellshaper may not use a higher level use of this ability to summon multiple of a creature from a lower list. Each level of Summon Creature is considered as a separate spell for the purposes of the number of times it can be cast per combat and the wait until it can be cast again.

Required Color	Trait
White	Good Subtype, Air Subtype, Celestial Template
Blue	Water Subtype, Air subtype, Aquatic subtype, Fey type
Black	Undead, Evil Subtype, Vermin, Fiendish Template
Red	Earth Subtype, Fire Subtype
Green	Non-aquatic animals and magical beasts exclusive to Summon Nature's Ally, Plants, Fey type

Can you be specific on list crossover for Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster? Green relates only to Magical Beasts and Animals, so I'm not sure if I'm seeing what you're seeing. Fiendish Wolves are intended to be black. Should that be "Non-Aquatic Non-templated animals and magical beasts"? By exclusive I meant that specific entry, I was thinking that Fiendish animal and Animal counted as two separate things to summon.

Red also gets Salamanders, Mephits, Thoqqua, Hell Hounds (with black), but yeah, it does look like mostly elementals.Then agian, they will have the most offensive direct damage spells (near exclusively), and they'll get a second color soon enough that I don't think it will be too big of an issue.

[Zaydos]

For ease so I dont' have to click back and forth between tabs. Bolded for clarification.


Can you be specific on list crossover for Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster? Green relates only to Magical Beasts and Animals, so I'm not sure if I'm seeing what you're seeing. Fiendish Wolves are intended to be black. Should that be "Non-Aquatic Non-templated animals and magical beasts"? By exclusive I meant that specific entry, I was thinking that Fiendish animal and Animal counted as two separate things to summon.

The exclusive made this confusing because it confusing because there are no animals on the SM list (once templated they're all magical beasts) or actually any overlap between the magical beasts sans templates. Non-templated is a much clearer way of saying it though theoretically includes Coatls, alternatively just saying "from the SNA list" without exclusive leaves it with a clearer meaning.

Red also gets Salamanders, Mephits, Thoqqua, Hell Hounds (with black), but yeah, it does look like mostly elementals.Then agian, they will have the most offensive direct damage spells (near exclusively), and they'll get a second color soon enough that I don't think it will be too big of an issue.

Red is only a major issue at Lv 2 and 3 because they have no summons there (Blue has only aquatic creatures) which means they have no access to a vital class feature. This unfortunately makes choosing red as your 1st color rather painful if you're actually playing from 1st level. Not sure how to fix it though. Planar Handbook is no help since they didn't reprint the elemental creature templates.

[Beelzebub1111]

Yeah, that makes sense, I suppose. Is there a way to summon anarchic creatures with Summon Monster? That might be a fix. Blue could get axiomatic and open up their list at lower levels...

I may have to settle for something imperfect for now. I mean, starting red does give you more damage than anyone else, and they get what's probably the best mythic summon late game, which may not be a HUGE deal, but it is something

[Zaydos]

Yeah, that makes sense, I suppose. Is there a way to summon anarchic creatures with Summon Monster? That might be a fix. Blue could get axiomatic and open up their list at lower levels...

I may have to settle for something imperfect for now. I mean, starting red does give you more damage than anyone else, and they get what's probably the best mythic summon late game, which may not be a HUGE deal, but it is something

The Planar Handbook has rules for summoning anarchic/axiomatic creatures, but it does so by selectively replacing celestial/fiendish and you'd probably need to just state that one replaced celestial and the other fiendish, or make your own list which really wouldn't take too long (go through alternating anarchic/axiomatic down each list, done).

[Jormengand]

Well, I now need to make 3 lores and about 10 path abilities each day...

I can do this!

[Beelzebub1111]

1 week to do ~40 spells, planeswalker and Genesis. Think I can do it?

[1pwny]

Did you guys know that viewing this site on mobile shows you different avatars? Its weird.

[Xhosant]

Did you guys know that viewing this site on mobile shows you different avatars? Its weird.

It can't handle our custom avatars, so it defaults to the last-used provided avatar.

[r2d2go]

1 week to do ~40 spells, planeswalker and Genesis. Think I can do it?

Yeah, for this reason I think I'm skipping this competition. I started making something for a class based on my Kol cards from YMTC, but then I realized I definitely did not have time to make a six-level spell list with a reasonable amount of spells each

[Beelzebub1111]

okay, so I know etherial armor sucks looking over it. I'll replace it with something better when I get home. I need something offensive for white, saltblast?

[boomwolf]

No matter how much I try, I cannot get the fluxer to both be reasonably playable, and keep a flavor I am happy with.


This class will not be completed, and I got no time nor concept in order to complete another in time, consider this my resignation for this contest.

[Temotei]

Yeah, for this reason I think I'm skipping this competition. I started making something for a class based on my Kol cards from YMTC, but then I realized I definitely did not have time to make a six-level spell list with a reasonable amount of spells each

No matter how much I try, I cannot get the fluxer to both be reasonably playable, and keep a flavor I am happy with.

This class will not be completed, and I got no time nor concept in order to complete another in time, consider this my resignation for this contest.

If an extension of a week or two would get a few more entries/ease the process of finishing up, I'm okay with that. There's no rush to get onto a new contest, after all. Quality over quantity or sumtheeng.

[Beelzebub1111]

An extra week would be handy. I've been pretty busy with stuff.

[Jormengand]

If an extension of a week or two would get a few more entries/ease the process of finishing up, I'm okay with that. There's no rush to get onto a new contest, after all. Quality over quantity or sumtheeng.

Yeah, having a couple more weeks might make this viable.

[Temotei]

An extra week would be handy. I've been pretty busy with stuff.

Yeah, having a couple more weeks might make this viable.

Cool. New date is the 17th.

[boomwolf]

Unless I come up with an entirely new concept, a few weeks will not change my position.

The Fluxer, altough cool in concept in my eyes, just cant remain loyal to it mechanically. and if the mechanics are not loyal to the concept, there is no point.

[sengmeng]

The Cheater is done... not expecting full PEACHes, though it is a tiny class. Just wondering a few things:

1). Is it enough? Tiny classes seem to not be the most favored on here (though it is by all means complete).

2). Is it too dippable? Alternatively, is there enough to keep you in this class?

3). Is it too powerful? Remember its crippling flaw... rocks!

4). Does it give anyone else Truenamer vibes?

Edit:
5). And does it fit the theme enough?

[Jormengand]

The Cheater is done... not expecting full PEACHes, though it is a tiny class. Just wondering a few things:

1). Is it enough? Tiny classes seem to not be the most favored on here (though it is by all means complete).

2). Is it too dippable? Alternatively, is there enough to keep you in this class?

3). Is it too powerful? Remember its crippling flaw... rocks!

4). Does it give anyone else Truenamer vibes?

It's probably enough. Don't be put off by me and Zay's insanity. Oh, but the X in the "There are X types of bluffs the Cheater can use on the Ge-em." thing needs to change.

It is definitely too dippable, given that it has almost no level-based scaling at all except for the thing that kills you.

The Rocks Fall ability is annoying and no-one likes critical fails, but it's not enough to balance the class -remember Grod's Law; class abilities cannot and should not be balanced by making them annoying to use.

It does seem a little truenamerish, yes, and similar hacks to get your bluff really high are easy enough.

[sengmeng]

It's probably enough. Don't be put off by me and Zay's insanity. Oh, but the X in the "There are X types of bluffs the Cheater can use on the Ge-em." thing needs to change.

It is definitely too dippable, given that it has almost no level-based scaling at all except for the thing that kills you.

The Rocks Fall ability is annoying and no-one likes critical fails, but it's not enough to balance the class -remember Grod's Law; class abilities cannot and should not be balanced by making them annoying to use.

It does seem a little truenamerish, yes, and similar hacks to get your bluff really high are easy enough.

There's a little keeping you in... some of the lies scale by level, such as the highest priced item on the Ass Pull... which I thought would be its main feature and method of dealing damage via UMD, and also it scales Bluff twice as fast as a normal class that has it on its skill list. Can a simple increase of DC's balance it? Any advice on keeping players in the class, or limiting its usefulness as a dip?

[Temotei]

...class abilities cannot and should not be balanced by making them annoying to use.

This rule is practically the most important mechanical guideline in terms of balance you should have in mind when making something. Celerity is probably the best example of this sort of thing going awry in a helpful way, with truenamer being on the other side of rather unhealthy because of being hard to play with little payoff when you do play it right.

[Jormengand]

So, finished Lore of Ruin and also added countering/dispelling functionality and did the battle wizard path...

We're getting there!

[sengmeng]

Ok, some changes made on the Cheater. The DC's scale faster, limiting their uses, and now more of them scale in some way based on the Cheater's level, reducing dippability somewhat (though it's still a pretty good dip, which I'm comfortable with UNLESS it's such a good dip that everyone would take it. That's not ideal at all).

I still have Rocks Fall in there, but I'm not sure about keeping it for the final contest.

[Jormengand]

Well, you can now happily be a skaven.

At least, once I'm back with books and can look up all the doomwheel's stuff. But essentially you can be a skaven.

[1pwny]

Jormengand, you got a lot going on. Like, actually. Those are a lot of warp pathways.

And then there are all those Lore Magics, too.

[Jormengand]

Jormengand, you got a lot going on. Like, actually. Those are a lot of warp pathways.

And then there are all those Lore Magics, too.

Yeah. There's a lot of stuff.

But I'm working on it.

[ezkajii]

Aaaaand I'm in! There's a lot of text so if you catch any spelling or grammar errors, please let me know! Also if there are any glaring/obvious balance errors that I missed, I would greatly appreciate a heads up, if you've got the time and inclination.

Feels good man

[Almarck]

What is the point of having guidelines scale of they are the only thing that permits saving throws?

[ezkajii]

They're the only rules that directly allow a saving throw to negate them completely, but the rule save DC comes into play within situations some of the higher rules create.

[Zaydos]

For word errors, when you're describing enforcement time as 1 full round action you then describe them in ways similar to spells with a casting time of 1 full round; a full round action can be performed exclusively during your turn, an action which requires 1 full round is finished at the start of your next. Also do rules move with you or can you drop one and leave?

As for balance, I haven't gone through everything yet but... I apparently changed my mind while posting and went through everything.

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All is Trees stands out as really powerful for a 4th level effect, at 4th level most enemy groups are not ranged combatants and the DM is forced to build entirely new sets of encounters just for that ability, up it to 8th and there are comparable effects already in existence (Solid Fog) and ranged options are much more common on enemies meaning there will be encounters it can win (the hydra!) but there will also be ones where it is not an I Win button.

Anti-Doubles: You double your uses of Laws for the duration by getting a double who can use them for you, and your allies' buff spell capabilities. Where All is Trees just needs a higher level, Anti-Doubles probably needs to be axed in general.

Apocalypse Burst: You just wiped out 90% of the human population from another plane. This just has problems. It would work with a range limit measured in miles, but one measured on "infinitely interplanar" it destroys a setting, and can't even be used as a good doomsday weapon plot. It's also not useful in actual combat.

Apocalyptic Reset: Same basic problem but here you just wiped out everyone, and everything with 2 or more hit dice; 200 damage/hit die to every creature is a little too much. It's also slow enough to not be useful in combat.

Only the Truth Matters: Cancel Rule can't affect Truths so with all other rules not in effect the exemption for Cancel Rule is kind of pointless.

Timeless: As written it lasts forever The RAI is clear and it does not need to be changed, just had to point it out.

Verify: Have to look at lower grades before I can comment on whether this is multiversal genocide.

Wishes Have (Limited) Power: Each ally gets 12 3rd level spells is probably too much for a 6th level spell equivalent even if limited to out of combat use.

A World Without Death should probably be a Law due to how it comes into play at the same level as Animate Dead for some classes, and turns a 2nd level spell (Command Undead) into free undead.

Cascading Power: I'd drop the duration to 1 round/level or make it higher level, stacking things can get pretty powerful at higher levels.

Cling to Spells/Powers: are worrisome due to their nature, but the halving effects and limitation to empowerable spells probably make them functional and no broken combos pop into my head immediately.

Contingent Magic/Psionics: Are probably breakable, hence why you can only have one contingent spell at a time. I'd make it limit them to one contingent effect at a time, you can still force others to trigger and it still gives all casters in your party a free spell at the start of combats for the duration. Which is still possibly game breaking with its duration.

Curved Space Time: Should grant the All-Around Vision special quality (protects against flanking and grants +4 to Search/Spot).

Fixed Forms: Does this stop minor shapechange (changelings)/Thousand Faces (druid)?

Fleeting Power: The DC is too low. At that level they need less than a 10 so on average it's 1 pp per round that they remain within (assuming they don't have precautions such as a 2500 GP item to ensure they make a 20 on a 1 for concentration purposes). It could just not allow resistance and still function and be balanced.

Fragile Steel: Does magical enhancement increase the hardness above 0 or is it 0 after that is calculated in?

Immortality: I'd cut it back to 1 round/level. Still lasts through an entire combat (and some time after) and is just cleaner, but it's not a huge deal either way.

X is Hard: I think the DC might be a little too high at the level you first get it, and might go with a flat 50% chance, or a CL check against DC 11 + your rulemaker level; though you might want to then do the same to X is Very Hard (which has a comparatively lower DC as CL boosters are around at that point and the DC increase is slower than linear).

Magic is Light: The intent seems to be you get information as round 1, or possibly 2, of detect magic without concentration, is that correct?

Martyrs: I would add a clause about not allowing regen/DR/energy resistance or immunity against this damage i.e. it cannot be reduced or prevented.

Material Standard: Is this supposed to be a Truth? It has a transcosmic effect as written. If it just suppresses planar traits in an area around you, I'd drop it to Edict.

Mindless: A creature with 0 in an ability score cannot act; you mean become non-abilities. A creature with a non-ability for Wisdom or Charisma is not a creature but an object and cannot act. Reducing your own Int to - means that you become an NPC and... this one just ends up really messy. I'd suggest renaming it and reworking it to make all creatures have 10 Int, Wis, and Cha.

No Turning: I'd note they also can't be rebuked.

Obscurity: Might get scary when combined with a source of invisibility, such as a ring of invisibility.

Persistent X: If the rule is an emanation based upon yourself, instead of staying where you leave it, this needs to be at least a Law.

Pride is your Downfall: The BBC code is messed up (you have [/b[ instead of the proper way)

Primitive State: A much more functional version of Mindless.

Psionics is Normal: Put a level cap on which powers they can manifest. They also need a manifester level; I'd actually say give them ML = 1/2 Character Level with ones manifested this way, which means that they have a built in level limit to which powers they can manifest.

Size Begets Life: This gets problematic if you have any party members who wear armor. I might make it only affect unattended objects and be lower level.

Greater Suggestibility: Does the lesser geas remain after the duration of the rule? If so it's too powerful (spamming 4th level spells at Lv 8 is not good design), if not it's non-functional (Lesser Geas doesn't do anything in the first 200 minutes).

Surging Power: Trying to think of official classes with X/day SLAs that would break this... shadowcaster. It should probably be an edict not a regulation.

Swapping: I'd say this could be lower level, it's not as powerful to use as the other laws, possibly just a regulation.

Telekinesis: This is stronger than Swapping.

Universal Telepathy: Seems odd to be reading the minds of other creatures outside of the range of the rule, and potentially broken. I'd remove the mind-reading bit, and leave it at "infinite range telepathy" which is itself a better version of Sending.

Over all well made, interesting, and one of the best, if not the best, reality warper class I've seen. I like it (as shown by the fact that I actually went through the whole list of powers with critiques instead of glancing through things)

[ezkajii]

For word errors, when you're describing enforcement time as 1 full round action you then describe them in ways similar to spells with a casting time of 1 full round; a full round action can be performed exclusively during your turn, an action which requires 1 full round is finished at the start of your next. Also do rules move with you or can you drop one and leave?

Edited rule description for clarity - they act as 1-round spells, like the summon monster seriers, and rules move with you.

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All is Trees: Upped to edict, and creatures grow branches extending their reach by 10ft (15ft for a normal Medium creature)

Anti-Doubles: What if it were changed so the doubles are instinctively hostile toward their originals (but still not suicidal and so wouldn't just bull rush them)? I think that might have been what i was thinking originally.

Apocalypse Burst - Nerfed to law

Apocalypse Reset: Hmm. I'd like to keep it - I removed the clause about how it can't be healed or interfered with by regeneration and fast healing, do you think that's reasonable?

Only the Truth Matters: Good catch!

Timeless: Clarified

Wishes Have (Limited) Power: Changed so it can only mimic spells which have a 1 round action casting time or shorter and halved duration.

A World Without Death: Seems fair. Law'd.

Cascading Power: It is limited to two instances of stacking, but I see what you mean, it probably makes most sense as a regulation.

Contingent Magic: Oh good lord I didn't realize I had made it last that long. Okay... Modified to limit contingent spells in place.

Curved Spacetime: Didn't realize All-Around Vision was standardized, will definitely do that instead.

Fixed Forms: Yes it does.

Fleeting Power: Not sure what you mean regarding "not allow resistance".

Fragile Steel: Good question! I forgot that magical enhancement increased hardness. I'll say... it just becomes zero.

Magic/Psionics is Hard: Hmm, yeah, it's a little hard to hit at the first few levels it's available. What about switching it to a spell/psicraft or concentration check?

Magic is Visible: Yes, without concentrating you get detect magic's 1 round effect, and each round you concentrate advances as normal. Edited for clarity and to keep it standardized with similar rules.

Martyrs: Oh whoops, thought I did. Fixed.

Material Standard: Yeah, the 'transcosmic' wording is intended to make it clear that it functions that way regardless of what plane you're on, it only affects the area around you. Edicted.

Mindless: Actually, I did mean zero in those scores. It's loosely based on the time hop powers, so you essentially fast-forward in time, but environmental or ongoing effects continue - creatures just can't act for the duration. It's sort of a workaround actual time travel.

No Turning: I had thought about, flavorwise i preferred just turning but I can see how, if you have no turning defenses against the undead and your enemies can control them, that that could be a bad plan. Fixed.

Obscurity: In the interest of combos, I'll allow it!

Persistent Magic/Psionics: Fair enough.

Pride is Your Downfall: Fixed.

Psionics is Normal: Another good catch, and an elegant solution. So adjusted.

Size Begets Life: Oops, yeah, can't have everyone's equipment turning on them! Clarified.

Greater Suggestibility: It would end at the expiration of the rule. Clarified and stipulated.

Surging Power: Seems reasonable. Edicted.

Swapping: Nerfed to regulation, which keeps it in line with telekinesis

Universal Telepathy: Oh, no, outside the rule's effect area telepathy is not universal, and so it cannot be used to communicate with creatures outside the area.

Also, thanks! Both for the compliment/fave and for the thorough and constructive feeback I'm reading through your submission now