Doctor Who Thread VI: "The Very Model of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer" [SPOILERS]

[dehro]

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He was about 1300 when he walked into Tranzelore and then he spent centuries protecting the place. So long that he almost died of old age - as a Time Lord. So over 2000 is a fair certainty.

I had forgotten to factor in that time.

[turkishproverb]

I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that the Doctor said he was 1200 years old in "The Impossible Astronaut", and Amy said that she thought he was 900. Assuming that means he *was* actually 900 when he first regenerated into Matt Smith, that would imply that particular regeneration of the Doctor lasted around 1100 years, since Peter Capaldi just said he was 2000 years old.

The Third doctor said he was Thousands of years old atone point, in his 700's at another. Two waffled between thousands and hundreds, Four between 700+ years to over a thousand, Five in his 800's, Six was 900, guessed at 20,000, and just under a thousand. 7 was in his 900's at one point, or his thousands, and admits to losing count. Eight 1012, 1018, and a couple others, before getting stranded. Nine claimed to have been travelling for 900 years, Ten reduced that to his age, And eleven claims plus years equal around 2000, depending on how you look at it. All the doctor's have given ages that don't match up. Frankly, it makes the least sense if you try using the ages in the new series as factual.

Best way to explain it? He lost count a couple times, and at some point 8 or war re-set from the beginning.

[huttj509]

The Third doctor said he was Thousands of years old, 7 was in his 900's at one point. All the doctor's have given ages that don't match up. Frankly, it makes the least sense if you try using the ages in the new series.

Best way to explain it? At some point 8 or war re-set from the beginning.

Better way to explain it, "So how many years have you been 25, now?"

[Xondoure]

The doctor lies about his age. Or just doesn't keep track. Or something.

[Calemyr]

The Third doctor said he was Thousands of years old, 7 was in his 900's at one point. All the doctor's have given ages that don't match up. Frankly, it makes the least sense if you try using the ages in the new series.

Best way to explain it? At some point 8 or war re-set from the beginning.

Best way to explain it? The Doctor Lies.

I figure the easiest way to explain it is what Eleven said in Closing Time: when he was young, he was trying to act old. He was claiming to be thousands of years old when he was Three because he was still pretty much a kid by Time Lord thinking. By the time he was Seven, he was still inflating it, but not by as much, because he'd learned that being older doesn't mean as much as he once thought it did. Then the war happened, and the Doctor gave that up. Of course, he doesn't really know how old he is, anymore, after lying so long, so he picks a number (900) and goes from there. That's why he's so precise about his age in the new series - he's honestly adding years to his age, but he doesn't remember for sure how old he actually was when he decided to start that. Thus his age is listed as 900 + years lived since the time war.

[turkishproverb]

Better way to explain it, "So how many years have you been 25, now?"

Heh. I've re-written a bit, but true.

The doctor lies about his age. Or just doesn't keep track. Or something.

7 implied he lost track, rather than deliberately not keeping track.

But any are possible.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The doctor lies about his age. Or just doesn't keep track. Or something.

It's like on a standardized test... when in doubt take "E: all of the above" and move on.

[Aedilred]

I think the official story, from Moffat, is that the Doctor doesn't know how old he is. When he gives an age, he's either guessing or deliberately lying. Which does make a degree of sense, since years are essentially an astronomical measure and the Doctor rarely stays in one place, or for that matter time, long enough for years to be possible or relevant to determine.

Even if he can, what years, anyway? Earth years? Gallifrey years? Some of the variance in his figures might be because he's deliberately being obtuse and counting in non-standard years. Dog years, even. It's the sort of thing he'd do.

It's possible that the Doctor measures his age by experience rather than strict linearity of time (not the years, it's the mileage). This might account for some of the revisions downward, after he got out of his awkward late youth when he thought he knew everything and was thus thousands of effective years old and then realised that he'd actually been much "younger" than he'd previously thought.

Having said that, there does seem to be some consistency of timekeeping among Time Lords, since he and the Rani are the same age, and they both agree on what that is (Time and the Rani) - although it's worth noting that the age the Doctor claims in that episode (953) is inconsistent with many of the others. Also, "your age" is one of the worst passwords I've ever heard of, especially when you know the one person you probably most need to keep in/out knows what that age is and, indeed, shares it, so I prefer to pretend that didn't happen anyway.

Alternatively, if Lungbarrow is taken as legitimate, the Doctor might be counting his entire period of existence when he talks about having lived for thousands of years, rather than just the relatively short period since the birth of the First Doctor. I'm not a fan of Lungbarrow, though.

In any case, my original comment about the relative longevity of the Eleventh Doctor was based on the NuWho figures, which have at least been consistent with each other if not with Classic Who. If I remember rightly, the (earlier) Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut claimed to be in his 900s, and the Twelfth just told us he's two thousand years old, which means the Eleventh lived - by that counting system, whatever it is - for roughly the same amount of time as all previous ones. The accuracy of both that count and the Doctor's reporting of it are open to serious question, of course.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think Day of the Doctor gives us a measure back to a start with the War Doctor that is all nominally consistent with NuWho. Can't remember all the figures there really or if they could be said to go all the way back to Eight. And then Eleven just added a bunch at Trenzalore consistent with Twelve, giving us a nominal personal timeline for the Doctor back to the starting point.

Clearly they don't want to be held to it should some screenwriter forget.

I think at this point it would be almost against the spirit of the show to really believe the Doctor has some personal linear timeline anyways. Nevermind you just know he has some embarrassing noodle incident he pretends never happened but charged him several years. Or spent some time in a Timey Wimey Planet where he's still at despite exiting or otherwise has rendered the question of age literally meaningless.

[Eldan]

Actually, this is one of the things that makes sense to me. The Doctor lived in (or rather, above) Victorian London for an unknown, but potentially quite long, period of time following the loss of Amy and Rory and before meeting Clara, and the Paternoster gang were his only real contact with "reality". It might be the place and time he stayed longest, besides Trenzalore, which wasn't through choice anyway.

So, in hindsight, does that mean 11s defining feature was that he's the Doctor who stopped travelling so much and kept sitting around the same few places for decades?

I mean, really. How often did he do that. Trenzelore, Victorian London, Rory and Amy's house in that cube episode...

Its probably one of the things I dislike about 11. He seems to be lacking the love of adventure a bit. I don't want to see the Doctor's home life. I want to see exotic planets and times.

I hope Capaldi will get a big scene, soon. I like Doctors with manic, emotional scenes and he didn't really have any yet. Give me a big speech, please? An angry one, perhaps?

[factotum]

So, in hindsight, does that mean 11s defining feature was that he's the Doctor who stopped travelling so much and kept sitting around the same few places for decades?

That depends...if I'm correct in that the Doctor was 900 (or thereabouts) when he regenerated into Eleven, we know he spent around 300 years doing *something* between then and "The Impossible Astronaut" which we simply didn't see most of on screen, and we then don't know exactly how long elapsed in his personal time-line before he set down on Trenzalore. He could have (and most likely *was*) doing all sorts of travelling during that time.

[Aotrs Commander]

That depends...if I'm correct in that the Doctor was 900 (or thereabouts) when he regenerated into Eleven, we know he spent around 300 years doing *something* between then and "The Impossible Astronaut" which we simply didn't see most of on screen, and we then don't know exactly how long elapsed in his personal time-line before he set down on Trenzalore. He could have (and most likely *was*) doing all sorts of travelling during that time.

I have observed that the newer series is very good at deliberately leaving "space" between on-screen adventures... which is a good idea, since it gives all the other media (games, books, comics, audio plays (eventually one assumes)) room to tell their stories as well.

[Kato]

Well, I missed the discussion on the premiere. That's what I get for being gone a few days


Something I guess we need to consider when talking about the Doctor and his age (apart from him being a damn dirty liar) is time is relative. No, that's not meant to be a poor joke, but while I guess the Doctor as a time lord has a pretty good sense of time using the arbitrary "one revolution of earth around the sun" as a measure is not always right, when he might just as well refer to the time Trenzalore takes to circle its star, or whatever else qualifies as a year. (Then again, maybe the Tardis not only translates but also does unit conversion for our convenience)

[factotum]

Well, the Doctor spends almost all his time in or near the TARDIS, so maybe he just goes by "TARDIS years"--whatever those are.

[Calemyr]

Just watching Deep Breath again and I noticed something I'd missed previously:

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While the Control Droid and the Doctor are trying to work out who is actually willing to kill who, Clara and the Gang are holding their breath to keep from getting killed. It occurs to me that Straxx is holding his rifle the wrong way. He's not aiming at the enemy, he's aiming at his own head. If he really meant to die in battle, all he'd have to do is breathe out - but if he does the fight will start anew. He's actually contemplating suicide here in order to keep from being the one to break first. For a guy who's often dismissed as comic relief, that's a pretty interesting act.

[Psyren]

Just watching Deep Breath again and I noticed something I'd missed previously:

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While the Control Droid and the Doctor are trying to work out who is actually willing to kill who, Clara and the Gang are holding their breath to keep from getting killed. It occurs to me that Straxx is holding his rifle the wrong way. He's not aiming at the enemy, he's aiming at his own head. If he really meant to die in battle, all he'd have to do is breathe out - but if he does the fight will start anew. He's actually contemplating suicide here in order to keep from being the one to break first. For a guy who's often dismissed as comic relief, that's a pretty interesting act.

Or he goofed for more comic relief

[Calemyr]

Or he goofed for more comic relief

I imagine you may be joking, but his expression looked to me like he was very much aware of what he was doing.

[Dienekes]

Just watching Deep Breath again and I noticed something I'd missed previously:

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While the Control Droid and the Doctor are trying to work out who is actually willing to kill who, Clara and the Gang are holding their breath to keep from getting killed. It occurs to me that Straxx is holding his rifle the wrong way. He's not aiming at the enemy, he's aiming at his own head. If he really meant to die in battle, all he'd have to do is breathe out - but if he does the fight will start anew. He's actually contemplating suicide here in order to keep from being the one to break first. For a guy who's often dismissed as comic relief, that's a pretty interesting act.

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I took it right away that he was willing to kill himself rather than expose his allies. That was the Badass Strax moment of the episode. There should be more of that and accidentally turning newspapers into weapons, and less falling down holes.

[Kato]

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I took it right away that he was willing to kill himself rather than expose his allies. That was the Badass Strax moment of the episode. There should be more of that and accidentally turning newspapers into weapons, and less falling down holes.

Yeah, I also noticed that, though I'm not sure about his reasoning...

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Him breathing wouldn't have given away his allies, why would it? He could have resumed breathing and tried to fight some more. Him killing himself would have just prevented them from killing him.
I guess it was meant to be deeper but it just seemed... er, unnecessary.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

So, against my better judgement, I watched it.

It was probably amongst the better New Series episodes. Which means it was barely okay.

[dehro]

I still think they should simply have held their breath, move away as soon as the robots held back, take another deep breath during which the (rather slow on their feet) robots would turn towards them... hold their breath again moving a bit further away... and rinse and repeat until they left the building.

[factotum]

hold their breath again moving a bit further away... and rinse and repeat until they left the building.

That would just have made the whole "if you hold your breath they don't realise you're not a robot, even when they were trying to kill you 5 seconds earlier" thing even more ridiculous, don't you think?

[Eldan]

Well yes, but then, it already was.

[dehro]

That would just have made the whole "if you hold your breath they don't realise you're not a robot, even when they were trying to kill you 5 seconds earlier" thing even more ridiculous, don't you think?

yes... and this

Well yes, but then, it already was.

once they'd opened that door, might as well walk through it. In fact the whole fight was clearly shot by someone who I don't think knows how to stage a fight properly.. so they might as well run away instead of fighting, which is more in Doctor Who style anyway

[Psyren]

Maybe holding your breath only works on them 1/encounter It would be nice if they explained that.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, I also noticed that, though I'm not sure about his reasoning...

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Him breathing wouldn't have given away his allies, why would it? He could have resumed breathing and tried to fight some more. Him killing himself would have just prevented them from killing him.
I guess it was meant to be deeper but it just seemed... er, unnecessary.

Ehh, if you don't think Vastra and whatshername would try to help Strax if he took a breath and got all the robots attacking him then I don't think we're going to agree on the characters.

[Kato]

Ehh, if you don't think Vastra and whatshername would try to help Strax if he took a breath and got all the robots attacking him then I don't think we're going to agree on the characters.

Hm... okay, but still. I know what they were trying to do it just didn't quite work for me. Maybe because everything else they ever did with Strax was turning him into a clown. And such a sudden turn from clown to hero failed for me.

[Calemyr]

Hm... okay, but still. I know what they were trying to do it just didn't quite work for me. Maybe because everything else they ever did with Strax was turning him into a clown. And such a sudden turn from clown to hero failed for me.

It wasn't heroic, it was military - preferring to die over letting down your team is exactly what I'd expect a Sontaran to do. They are conditioned to not fear death and to be team players. It was one of those subtle moments to remind you that he's not just a clown, he's a Sontaran even as a dishonored exile. A brain damaged, dishonored exile caught up in a permanent conflict regarding conditioning that makes him inclined to integrate into a team structure while giving him instincts contrary to his current team's sensibilities.

However, if we're going to complain about wonderful ideas that were largely wasted, we should talk about another show. Moffat seems to have adopted it as his new trademark, right next to absolutely mundane things and words that now strike terror into the hearts of the audience such as statues and gas masks and shadows.

[Psyren]

Hm... okay, but still. I know what they were trying to do it just didn't quite work for me. Maybe because everything else they ever did with Strax was turning him into a clown. And such a sudden turn from clown to hero failed for me.

Heroic clown? You're basically describing 11.

[Androgeus]

Introduction to Into the Dalek by Jenna & Steven. Basically an experiment into how much hype and buzz words can be fit in to 1 minute.