Picturing strength?

[ComaVision]

Lots of people that don't know much about real life strength in this thread...

Bruce Lee wasn't that strong. Very quick and agile and strong for his weight definitely but not really that strong in relative terms. Same would go for the rock climbers and martial arts teachers. They may be able to move around their body weight quite easily and have good strength for their weight but they're not going to be picking up 500 lbs. Muscle endurance is also different than strength.

On that note, I am stronger than Bruce Lee (in the pure measure of weight moved), and I'm certainly no where near not being able to hide it. I have a bit of a build but throw on a baggy hoody or something (or the robes that are ever present in medieval fantasy) and nobody would be the wiser.

As other people have alluded to, in the case of someone of immense strength (like Arnold or The Mountain), their characters would likely not be focused towards Hide or Disguise. If someone really spends the time making a massive character with ramped up Disguise, why stifle that creativity that has been invested in a likely interesting character?

[afroakuma]

why stifle that creativity that has been invested in a likely interesting character?

Because in jedipotter's world, creativity is aligned with powergaming, and realism is aligned with fun. If you want to play a giant mass of muscle that NPCs don't immediately pick out as having the force capacity of a truck and react to accordingly, you're powergaming and being a book robot thing.

[troqdor1316]

One of the smaller Hulks (as jedipotter puts it, 8ft tall) could masquerade as a 6ft tall human with a -25 penalty on his Disguise check. Naturally, such a penalty represents tremendous difficulty, and getting 25 on a check is something that doesn't seem possible when you're just a normal person. However, given that this is fantasy, there's no reason someone can't be really freakin' good at Disguise and manage to make the check with this penalty. That's what being good at something means - you can do really hard stuff.

Of course, we can also play a special version of D&D where people's abilities are capped by what jedipotter is personally capable of accomplishing, to make him feel better about his lack of imagination. But then the game would be called Commoners & Co mmoners.

Really, I think this hits the nails of all of jedipotter's problems on their respective heads . Deus forbid someone do something that jedipotter might not personally think to do himself, and obviously anyone who does manage some creativity is gaming the system. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that the system we're now talking about is no longer D&D, because jedipotter has shown multiple times that he does not follow D&D's rules and only shows interest in making threads about his homebrew ideas for houserules. Really, then, shouldn't these threads be in the homebrew forum and NOT taking up our precious internet space here?

Of course, I've got no interest in petitioning a mod to move his threads, or close them, or anything of the like. Really, my only point is that there comes a certain point of being wrong about something where you stop being wrong about that thing and start being right about something else entirely. Whatever game system jedipotter plays, I'm sure he's completely in the right about that system, where the skills are made up, the audience chooses what category of Orcus to play next, and player agency (and common courtesy between the players and the GM in general) doesn't matter; that said, it's certainly not D&D 3.5.

[Troacctid]

Honestly I've never had a player want to play a high-Str character who looks frail and weak for their race. I could imagine it, I guess, if they had high Str and low Con, but how often does that combo crop up? If a player wanted to play an 18 Str little girl in my game, I'd be more likely to shut them down based on the character's age than the implausibility. (Children shouldn't have strength that high, but if they did, it would be more logical to enforce that with an ability score penalty like with elderly characters.) If they aged her up to 16, I'd be like, "Uh, okay, it worked for Buffy, I guess," and allow it.

For the most part I'd use bluff or disguise checks if they wanted to appear weaker than they are, and it would be harder for them than a naturally weak character because, well, the naturally weak character wouldn't even need a check in the first place--you don't roll bluff if you're not bluffing! You can hide your strength, but it takes training (i.e. actual investment of skill points) to do so effectively. Most Str-based characters have few skill points and lack the proper class skills, and I wouldn't expect them to pull it off. It is certainly possible if you try, though. Look at how well Superman pulls it off:

Spoiler

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And let's not even get started on King Bumi.

Usually the situation where I'd expect this sort of thing to come up is the one where a player is playing a race that always looks shrimpy, like a Halfling or a High Elf. And in that case I don't think it would be an issue. The Halfling is still going to be three feet tall and the Elf is still going to be lean and sinuous rather than big and bulky.

Another possibility is if a normally shrimpy-looking character puts on a belt of +6 Str, or drinks a potion of Bull's Strength, or otherwise magically enhances their strength. In that case they'd be strong, but they wouldn't magically gain muscle mass, they'd just be magically strong--so they could easily pass themselves off as weak (i.e. hefty circumstance modifiers to the bluff check), although a keen-eyed observer could still tell the difference based on the way they move and carry themselves (i.e. there's still a check involved).

[Tar Palantir]

That's actually the perfect example. You want to see someone built like a bodybuilder passing themself off as a normal joe? Superman (granted, Christopher Reeve is no Arnold, but the principle is the same). It's a skill, sure; not everyone could pull it off. At the extreme ends, penalties become prohibitive, to the point where superhuman skill is needed to compensate. But it is by no means difficult to imagine how such a thing could be done.

[The Insanity]

Nobody did.

Eh, I kinda did.

[Somensjev]

okay, since people are putting forth real life examples, i'll say one too: myself

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time

if that's a heavy load, that means i have a minimum 16 strength, however, i was still able to run/walk at full speed, so it must have been a light load, if i'm reading the SRD correctly, putting me at a minimum 24 strength (wait, what? )

to preserve my sanity, let's assume my strength is capped at 20, which means carrying him was a medium load (still not buying it, i don't think i can lift 400lb and only be at my max carrying capacity, my arms would fall off before then)

and what do i, who have a strength somewhere between 16 and 24, look like?

Spoiler: first picture on the web

Show

not exactly big and buff, am i?
pretty sure i can, and have, convinced people i'm weak

[troqdor1316]

That's actually the perfect example. You want to see someone built like a bodybuilder passing themself off as a normal joe? Superman (granted, Christopher Reeve is no Arnold, but the principle is the same). It's a skill, sure; not everyone could pull it off. At the extreme ends, penalties become prohibitive, to the point where superhuman skill is needed to compensate. But it is by no means difficult to imagine how such a thing could be done.

Eh...it's definitely not a BAD example, I just wouldn't call it a perfect one. After all, Superman is Kryptonian; he doesn't get his STR score from muscle mass, he gets it from the Earth's yellow sun. If a normal human had Superman's STR score IN THE REAL WORLD, they would definitely be enormous bulging monstrosities.

Good thing DnD doesn't take place in the real world, huh? Because if I want to play a 9 year old girl with 18 STR, you bet your ass I'm gonna. You wanna know why she doesn't have bulging biceps? Pick a reason:

1. It's magic. I ain't gotta explain ****.

The onus for explaining completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should not be on the player, as it's completely rules legal and not cheesy. Penalties for said completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should also not be on a player. Why would you penalize someone for playing the game the way the game was written?

[Flickerdart]

If a normal human had Superman's STR score IN THE REAL WORLD, they would definitely be enormous bulging monstrosities.

There's no possible way to equate the strength to lift planets with "a normal human."

[Svata]

Beacuse RAW lets the players do things that Jedipotter doesn't like. Such as allowing spellcasters to cast spells, or anyone know things, or anyone to disguise themselves.

[Troacctid]

Good thing DnD doesn't take place in the real world, huh? Because if I want to play a 9 year old girl with 18 STR, you bet your ass I'm gonna. You wanna know why she doesn't have bulging biceps? Pick a reason:

1. It's magic. I ain't gotta explain ****.

The onus for explaining completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should not be on the player, as it's completely rules legal and not cheesy. Penalties for said completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should also not be on a player. Why would you penalize someone for playing the game the way the game was written?

That's simply incorrect. The Str score that you roll or point-buy when you generate your character is explicitly nonmagical. You don't lose your muscles when you walk into an Antimagic Field. Enhancement bonuses that you add on later are the magic.

[Yogibear41]

Good call. I was just going with the assumption that 18 was the limit of a human but it certainly makes sense that he would be above that.

Going off the Carrying Capacity table in the PHB, to derive strength score to pounds moved, a character can lift up to twice his maximum load off the ground, aka a deadlift, last time I check the world record deadlift was slightly over 1000 pounds, which means that man would have had a strength score of approximately 22.

Back to the original question, there are people who weight less than 140 pounds who have strength scores of 15-16 easily. I'm sure if I looked I could find people of the same size with strengths pushing 18.

[hamishspence]

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time

if that's a heavy load, that means i have a minimum 16 strength, however, i was still able to run/walk at full speed, so it must have been a light load, if i'm reading the SRD correctly, putting me at a minimum 24 strength (wait, what? )

to preserve my sanity, let's assume my strength is capped at 20, which means carrying him was a medium load (still not buying it, i don't think i can lift 400lb and only be at my max carrying capacity, my arms would fall off before then)

The SRD simplifies things somewhat. Keep in mind you have to be "unencumbered" for something to qualify as a light load - that is, it must not impact your skills in any way.

Can you walk for 8 hours with that load? Jump roughly the same height as you can with no load at all? "Hustle" for 1 hour with that load?

If you are "Walking at full speed" you might actually, in game terms, be hustling, not walking, at the "heavy load" speed.

Going off the Carrying Capacity table in the PHB, to derive strength score to pounds moved, a character can lift up to twice his maximum load off the ground, aka a deadlift, last time I check the world record deadlift was slightly over 1000 pounds, which means that man would have had a strength score of approximately 22.

Keep in mind that the character can also "stagger around at a rate of 5 ft per round" with it - deadlifters generally don't do that.

[Yogibear41]

That's simply incorrect. The Str score that you roll or point-buy when you generate your character is explicitly nonmagical. You don't lose your muscles when you walk into an Antimagic Field. Enhancement bonuses that you add on later are the magic.

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate

Magically applied templates, don't go away in an anti-magic field.

[Troacctid]

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate

Magically applied templates, don't go away in an anti-magic field.

Point. But that does mean magic is involved in an explicitly-defined manner--you still can't say "It's magic" as an ad hoc explanation for your otherwise-ordinary human child with 18 Str.

[dascarletm]

Point. But that does mean magic is involved in an explicitly-defined manner--you still can't say "It's magic" as an ad hoc explanation for your otherwise-ordinary human child with 18 Str.

is it that they can't, or that you personally don't like the idea?

Because they certainly can describe there character that way.


Look at any monster that has a large +str bonus, but isn't depicted as physically stronger.

[Jermz]

Oh dear, are we once again arguing real world physics vs. dungeons and dragons? We all know what lies at the bottom of that rabbit hole, and my Will save just isn't high enough to go down there...

[Zrak]

Steve Austin, who is huge, has lots of ranks in disguise and bluff, so he can convince a guard that he is ''Herman the tea guy'' if he rolls good(or is super optimized to ''never not make it). And this is great ''by the book and all''.

Is there any reason Herman the Tea Guy couldn't be huge? If the guy Steve Austin's trying to bluff knows Herman the Tea Guy, and knows Herman isn't huge, Steve Austin's bluff check got a lot harder. If Steve's just pretending to be Some Guy Who Brings Tea, though, I don't see any reason why his build would matter.

I mean, if you see a really muscular waiter, do you assume he's a mercenary hired to assassinate one of the guests or do you assume the guy works out on the weekends?

If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

They just have to make the bluff about something other than strength in order to make it believable:

"The lid is greasy, and none amongst our number has a shirt with which to wipe it. Our oiled muscles only exacerbate this jar's fiendish slipperiness," said Thor. "Would that Sons of Asgard were not made to gleam so! Hast thou a garment to wipe and grubby hands to twist, mortal? I would be in your debt."

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

[Troacctid]

is it that they can't, or that you personally don't like the idea?

Because they certainly can describe there character that way.


Look at any monster that has a large +str bonus, but isn't depicted as physically stronger.

It's that D&D draws a distinction between magical and nonmagical abilities, and physical ability scores are not magical.

Some monsters may have racial Str bonuses without being depicted as muscular, but a. that's not the same as being magic and b. that certainly does not apply to humans, who do not have any racial ability modifiers.

[Svata]

They just have to make the bluff about something other than strength in order to make it believable:

"The lid is greasy, and none amongst our number has a shirt with which to wipe it. Our oiled muscles only exacerbate this jar's fiendish slipperiness," said Thor. "Would that Sons of Asgard were not made to gleam so! Hast thou a garment to wipe and grubby hands to twist, mortal? I would be in your debt."

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

I almost want to sig-quote that.

[Threadnaught]

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

This is the only thing I disagree with.


Riddick would kill Hulk with a pickle, he's planning on killing Thor with the lid.

[Morty]

The moral of the story is: trying to line up D&D attributes with reality is a quick, scenic route to the beautiful land of complete absurdity. Attributes tell you, in a roundabout way, what modifier you apply to certain checks and passive values, and what feats you qualify for. That's it.

And of course, I'm still mystified as to what, exactly, is so horrible about NPCs not suspecting that a character is incredibly strong. How is it different from all the other kinds of power you can't recognize at the first glance? Leaving aside your deliberately absurd Hermione Granger example, a muscular man might be a regular strong human. Or he might be a mighty warrior who will snap those ropes like string and punch your head off your shoulders. In a world with the kind of power disparity any D&D-verse has, it's just a fact of life.

[Chronos]

While we're at it with personal examples, I'm nearly six feet tall, broad-shouldered, and reasonably fit... and going by how much I can bench-press, I have a strength score of about 6.

And the Superman example isn't about the fact that Superman is an alien with a Str in the 50s or 60s. It's about Christopher Reeves, the human, being a very muscular man, and yet still being able to convincingly portray mild-mannered Clark Kent.

[Fax Celestis]

Of course, we can also play a special version of D&D where people's abilities are capped by what jedipotter is personally capable of accomplishing, to make him feel better about his lack of imagination. But then the game would be called Commoners & Commoners.

Dungeons & Dead Men.

[Psyren]

While I'm sure that up to a certain point strength corresponds with muscle, I doubt they are truly representative on a 1:1 basis, i.e. "chest size and arm diameter X to strength score Y." Just as a tiny brain corresponds with low Int but getting to 40 int does not turn you into Megamind.

[dascarletm]

It's that D&D draws a distinction between magical and nonmagical abilities, and physical ability scores are not magical.

Some monsters may have racial Str bonuses without being depicted as muscular, but a. that's not the same as being magic and b. that certainly does not apply to humans, who do not have any racial ability modifiers.

There are things that are magical. Like magic items and spells.

There are things that are "magical" like being a half celestial. You get an increase to strength but nowhere are you described as bigger because of it.

You can certainly say that I have some celestial/fiendish ancestry way back down (too little to be planetouched) but it manifests as increased strength instead of any other ability. That's why I am so strong but look fairly small.

There is no rules as to you needing to look any sort of way based off your abilities, so trying to say DnD draws lines or not will get you no where. If you want to go based solely off the rules then, I look this way because I can describe my character however I want.

However, if you want to rationalize it then this method works just fine.

Moral of the story: even if something isn't tagged magical by DnD rules doesn't mean it isn't magical by the English definition of the word.

[Deadline]

Dungeons & Dead Men.

Drowning & Falling?

[Brookshw]

Drowning & Falling?

After looking that website over it sounds hilarious. Paranoia move over!

[The Insanity]

t's Fantasy. I ain't gotta explain ****.

FTFY. That should resolve the issue of "but muscles aren't magical".

[Spore]

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time

First of all "an indefinite time" is quite a stretch. You can't carry a guy this tall while doing anything else.

Second you would only stagger around leaving you at an average Str of 11. But please tell me you can run (4x 30 ft in 6 seconds) with that load on your back. And film it too.