If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[rockdeworld]

I've heard "if it has stats, it can be killed." Well, I designed a creature that has stats (and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse, I stuck to RAW*), and I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you.

My challenge is similar to the Stuffy Doll, except that I won't disclose the creature's stats (and I think this creature is weaker than the Stuffy Doll). They're in an immutable document right now, which is my promise that they won't change (until he's defeated).

If you win you get bragging rights and I'll add your name to the OP and pm you the creature's stats. If you lose, I'll say how your character died. The only restrictions I ask for characters are: 20th level (190,000 XP if you use LA or WBL) with standard WBL (760,000 gp). Any alternate rules, eg. LA buyoff, are allowed.

*I think. If proven wrong, I will apologize. I did create some new abilities. The only one that breaks RAW is that the creature has regeneration.

Let it be known that
Erik Vale
destroyed the V1 creature with a well-worded Miracle (on page 2)
MetaMyconid
also destroyed the V1 creature with an epic bluff (on page 3)
Kardar233
destroyed the V2 creature with non-linear temporal spellcrafting and a Sphere of Annihilation (on page 12)

[Flickerdart]

(and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse, I stuck to RAW*)

Mortiverse isn't "rule-altering." It uses rules from several 3rd party sources, most notable the Immortals Handbook. Granted, when I say rules, I use the term quite loosely - the entire book isn't worth the paper it's printed on - but it's still a legitimate monster in that sense.

Anyway, does your thing survive reality being reset to before it existed via Forced Dream shenanigans?

[Erik Vale]

I'll open with two things first, is it immune to Miracle, and could it survive the death of the multiverse?

[OldTrees1]

Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)

EDIT: I got it.

I am any creature with two arms, the Improved Grapple feat, at least one level in Cancer Mage (guess which disease I'm infected with!), and a Bag of Devouring. I have spent at least twenty years with this festering illness turning me into Muscle Wizard (at a rate of +2 STR/day), so my to-hit modifier is at least +7,300 just from that. I walk up to the creature, make a touch attack to initiate a grapple (provoking no attacks of opportunity thanks to the Improved Grapple feat), which I easily pass except on a 1, because my to-hit bonus is [insert bonus here], to stuff the creature into the Bag of Devouring. If it fails the grapple check (if it uses my grapple modifier, this is all but automatic, since my STR bonus is [insert bonus here]), it is "consumed". No save, no SR, no amount of hit point damage of any kind; just "consumed".

Do I win V.16?

[Feint's End]

Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)

To be fair .... anything winning a challenge via festering anger abuse is kind of lame. It's neither elegant nor especially creative.

[rockdeworld]

Mortiverse isn't "rule-altering." It uses rules from several 3rd party sources, most notable the Immortals Handbook. Granted, when I say rules, I use the term quite loosely - the entire book isn't worth the paper it's printed on - but it's still a legitimate monster in that sense.

Anyway, does your thing survive reality being reset to before it existed via Forced Dream shenanigans?

3rd-party books aside, I was mainly thinking of the way the author defended having more than infinity hp as "first you deal infinity damage, then it has X HP after that." Or some silliness like that. I'll accept that as 3rd party rules though, which I'm not using

Depending on the way Forced Dream is used, maybe maybe not.

I'll open with two things first, is it immune to Miracle, and could it survive the death of the multiverse?

As to miracle, it might depend on the wording. Death of the multiverse, depends on how you go about it.

Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)

Your character dies at least 20 years ago (about the time he started festering strength) from NI untyped damage.
Edit: In fact 5 rounds after contracting Festering Strength. And it loses the Sneak Attack and Disease Host abilities before taking the damage.

Er, maybe I should make it weaker.

[Flickerdart]

Depending on the way Forced Dream is used, maybe maybe not.

Look up the Dream of Metal. Forced Dream is used to irrevocably rewind a plane to when it was activated. Can your creature survive being undone (for instance, by existing on multiple planes)?

[OldTrees1]

Your character dies at least 20 years ago (about the time he started festering strength) from NI untyped damage.

Er, maybe I should make it weaker.

Nah, keep it this strong. I was just fishing for information. I was hoping for the hilarious "It is too big to fit in the bag" but I will settle for NI untyped damage (assisted with Teleport Thru Time I assume? Or perhaps merely very paranoid divination.).

[rockdeworld]

Look up the Dream of Metal. Forced Dream is used to irrevocably rewind a plane to when it was activated. Can your creature survive being undone (for instance, by existing on multiple planes)?

Mr. Anderson dies about the time he starts assembling the cult of the Warforged from NI untyped damage (from an unseen source, 4 rounds after starting, and loses his class abilities, including spellcasting, before taking the damage).

Nah, keep it this strong. I was just fishing for information. I was hoping for the hilarious "It is too big to fit in the bag" but I will settle for NI untyped damage (assisted with Teleport Thru Time I assume? Or perhaps merely very paranoid divination.).

Ok I expected fishing, given the way I set up the competition. You're welcome to guess the method, but the damage to #16 came from an unseen source.

[Urpriest]

Hmm...

If divination is what's going on, a Diplomancer sounds like the best choice. Use the Omniscificer or similar to contact your creature and explain to it why it ought to seek out its own death, using a high enough check result to get to Fanatic (though probably best to stick to lower values since I'm assuming you're immune to mind-affecting, so we'll go with Helpful...if Helpful isn't enough, then get to Helpful, request the creature lower its mind-affecting immunity, then go to Fanatic).

If the creature locates potential threats via divination, then that divination would reveal the diplomancing message, and it takes effect. If a third party is protecting the creature through divination, the same thing happens. If a mindless/automatic force is locating potential threats then it probably has some sort of exception for things in the creature's best interests, which this is because you can't lie via Diplomacy (since it's covered by Bluff) and thus if the check is successful it actually is in the creature's best interests to kill itself.

[Flickerdart]

Mr. Anderson dies about the time he starts assembling the cult of the Warforged from NI untyped damage (from an unseen source).

It's really not that hard to be immune to damage (regeneration + immunity to energy + immunity to non-lethal). Have anything more effective?

[rockdeworld]

Hmm... <snip>

The Omniscifier dies from NI untyped damage when he begins crafting (3 rounds after he starts, to be precise, he loses Artificer class abilties and spellcasting and then takes the damage).

Other characters attempting diplomatic messages suffer a similar fate 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds after leaving the message.

My apologies to the above characters for being imprecise. I've edited my posts. I think you now have all the info your characters would get under the circumstances.
Edit: I was wrong. Fixed now.

It's really not that hard to be immune to damage (regeneration + immunity to energy + immunity to non-lethal). Have anything more effective?

Maybe.

[Vhaidara]

This seems silly.

I play a level 1 Elan Commoner. I engage in a staring contest until the end of time with the creature. The multiverse ends. Draw.

[rockdeworld]

This seems silly.

I play a level 1 Elan Commoner. I engage in a staring contest until the end of time with the creature. The multiverse ends. Draw.

Your character dies 5 rounds after beginning the contest from the damage. Also you may have trouble finding him.

[Jormengand]

I've heard "if it has stats, it can be killed." Well, I designed a creature that has stats (and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse, I stuck to RAW*), and I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you.

Well, nigh-unkillable creatures are always a ton of fun.

I go truenamer 20, and open up with a heightened mortalbane reversed energy negation and a quickened mortalbane reversed energy negation, dumping 80d6 of whatever energy damage I like on it. If that doesn't work, I can drop two reversed Essences of Lifespark every turn, for two negative levels ignoring SR.

Just to go through what else I can do ignoring SR: ability damage, making it take a penalty on all its saves, stopping it from attacking or plane shifting or moving, and also I can prevent any damage type - I'm not sure that "Untyped" is legit, though.

If that doesn't work, I drop down a few solars with wish/miracle, which drop every spell in the entire game on the thing. Or chain gates. Or I could just fly above it and craft infinite collossal quarterstaves for all of the bludgeoning damage.

Oh, also, is its NI untyped damage a spell? That's a readied-action reversed spell rebirth to the face, that is.

Or I go for the wizard who is immune to death from hit point damage, and then pull any of a number of schenanigans while blissfully ignoring the tons of damage.

Any of these work?

[Vhaidara]

Your character dies 5 rounds after beginning the contest from the damage. Also you may have trouble finding him.

Okay, I try again with a 20th level max Con Elan Barbarian.

[Cruiser1]

I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you. The only restrictions I ask for characters are: 20th level (190,000 XP if you use LA or WBL) with standard WBL (760,000 gp).

Your build seems strong! Time to see how it does against other Tier 0 builds. Priya the Prismatic Priestess is a level 20 build with standard WBL. She's no pushover in a duel...

The moment the contest starts. Priya goes first and gets a free standard action, since she's in Dire Tortoise form. If you're in Dire Tortoise form too, Priya activates one of her 21 contingent Celerities (20 from Craft Contingent Spell, and 1 from casting Contingency). Unless you're in Dire Tortoise form and also have 22 or more contingent Celerities, Priya goes first. In all but the most optimized high level combat, going first is all that matters.

Once Priya has a standard action to take, she starts her infinite Time Stop loop. Unless you're an epic character with the epic feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), you can't do anything in response. With infinite time, Priya can find out the details about your build and how to best defeat it at her leisure, or at least stay in Time Stop forever and keep the duel a draw.

Assuming Priya isn't somehow killed during the Time Stop, she exits Time Stop and takes infinite standard actions. Again unless you have properly worded contingencies you can't interrupt them. With infinite standard actions Priya can disjunct you (a few million times to be sure), then use her infinite wishes to transport you into the middle of the Sun and then into various black holes. If that doesn't work she'll just use Wish to place you in an antimagic field followed by nuking with a bunch of Orb spells, or she'll whack you with her +Google longword that's arguably enough to annihilate the entire Multiverse with a single swing. Again all this happens before we even roll initiative.

[OldTrees1]

New fishing attempt

Wizard 9 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theruge 9
Items: Thought Bottle(with current xp), 2x Spell Clock(once/second) of Delay Death(targeting the owner), 2x Spell Clock(once/second) of Greater Dispel Magic(dispelling the previous turn's Delay Death)

Round 1: Cast Teleport Thru Time to 1 month prior +/- 1d8 minutes.
Round ~T-1 Month: Cast Teleport Thru Time on a pair of Spell Clocks(1 of each) to send them to before(noting error ranges) my origin. They have instructions to be given to me at my origin.


Question: Dispelling Delay Death ends Delay Death while avoiding Delay Death's duration from expiring right?
Answered: No.

[Chronos]

Question: Dispelling Delay Death avoids Delay Death's duration from expiring right?

On the contrary: Dispelling a spell causes its duration to instantly expire.

To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us. Which means that in addition to a really impressive offense, we also need either an equally impressive defense, or a means of making sure our impressive offense happens before its does.

Meanwhile: A 20th-level archivist casts Commune, questioning Boccob. He asks the following questions:
1: Do you know who the most difficult-to-kill entity in the multiverse is?
(assuming a yes)
2a: Would you benefit from said entity dying?
3a: Is said entity evil?
4a: Is said entity good?
5a: Is said entity lawful?
6a: Is said entity chaotic?
(assuming a no to question 1)
2b: Do you know anything about the most difficult-to-kill entity in the multiverse?
(assuming a yes)
3b: Would you benefit from said entity dying?
4b: Is said entity evil?
5b: Is said entity good?
6b: Is said entity lawful?
7b: Is said entity chaotic?
(assuming a no to question 2b)
3c: Would you benefit from the death of the most difficult-to-kill entity that you do know about?
4c: Is said entity evil?
5c: Is said entity good?
6c: Is said entity lawful?
7c: Is said entity chaotic?

Keep in mind that, while the questions must be yes-no questions, the deity can give longer answers if that is in the deity's interests. At the end of these questions, is the archivist still alive, and if so, what are the answers?

[Flickerdart]

To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us. Which means that in addition to a really impressive offense, we also need either an equally impressive defense, or a means of making sure our impressive offense happens before its does.

The only offense that's been demonstrated is NI damage at any point in time, which is trivial to avoid. Beyond that, we haven't seen this entity capable of anything offensive at all.

[Necroticplague]

Hmmmmm.....Similar to the Stuffy Doll, it seems to retroactively kill you 4 or 5 rounds after your plans begin. So the only way to kill it is to do something that doesn'y require more than about 30 seconds.

To that end: d2 crusader. Use a candle to get a djjin to wish me to the creature's location. Swift Action to quicken heal minor wounds on myself, true strike. Cast [spell whos name I can't remember, makes it so you can treat a roll as a nat 20], and quickened wraithstrike. Quickened heal minor on self to activate Imbued Healing (luck), punch him with your guaranteed hit, do infinite damage.

[Heliomance]

I think it's killing you 1d4+1 rounds after you start whatever you're doing.

[Psyren]

To be fair .... anything winning a challenge via festering anger abuse is kind of lame. It's neither elegant nor especially creative.

But using it to wrestle your foe into a bag without dealing damage seems plenty creative to me

[rockdeworld]

Well, nigh-unkillable creatures are always a ton of fun.

Hah, I hadn't seen Amkii before. Neat concept.

Truenamer: I think those require LoE, so you have to get in range before you can do that. Having said that, your character doesn't see him and then 3 rounds later loses truenaming and then takes NI untyped damage.

The damage is not from a spell.

Okay, I try again with a 20th level max Con Elan Barbarian.

Same result. Not enough HP, unless I'm missing something.

Your build seems strong! Time to see how it does against other Tier 0 builds. Priya the Prismatic Priestess is a level 20 build with standard WBL. She's no pushover in a duel...

Agh, the reading (nice work on that build, IMO)
Priya wins initiative without using any contingencies. However, she is somehow killed during the Time Stop. Specifically (tell me if she has any buffs active to stop any of these):
In round 2 of effective time for her (i.e. when she's dancing to cast another time stop) an (Ex) effect strips her of all abilities, including class abilities like Spelldancing, but, ah, not her buffs, so she's still immune to damage, etc.
So she survives the damage.
Then she dies (no save, not a [death] effect*, just dies).
*Even though that's cheesy. Sorry.

To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us.

<snip>

Well, you can take from the Elan commoner's staring contest that it's not ignoring you, correct.

The Commune spell fails. I didn't see anything in the rules that says you know why it fails, but correct me if I missed something.
Then the archivist dies in similar fashion as the above, 4 rounds after he started casting.

d2 crusader. Use a candle to get a djjin to wish me to the creature's location. Swift Action to quicken heal minor wounds on myself, true strike. Cast [spell whos name I can't remember, makes it so you can treat a roll as a nat 20], and quickened wraithstrike. Quickened heal minor on self to activate Imbued Healing (luck), punch him with your guaranteed hit, do infinite damage.

Your travel via the transport wish is blocked. 4 rounds later, ability loss and NI damage.

Let's see If I understand then:
Round 1: (Standard) Use candle, get wish, transport. (Swift) true strike (for +20 to-hit on top of ?? BAB)
Round 2: (Standard) nat-20 spell, (swift) wraithstrike
Round 3: (swift) heal minor wounds for Imbued Healing, (standard) unarmed strike (or something)

At the end of round 1 you find yourself in Sigil, facing a large-sized creature made of steampunk.
In round 3 your attack misses due to incorporeality low attack bonus (assuming 20 die roll + 16 BAB vs touch ac). incorporeality (I was right the first time and got messed up)
In round 5, you lose all abilities and then take NI damage.

[Urpriest]

Your travel via the transport wish is blocked. 4 rounds later, ability loss and NI damage.

Can we ask if this is because you're taking a non-cheesy version of the "regardless of local conditions" line, or because the creature has some means of bypassing the cheesy version of said line?

[Chronos]

OK, my archivist's brother (also an archivist 20), who has the Craft Contingent Spell feat, crafts a contingent True Resurrection that will trigger on himself if he dies. Then he goes outside, stares up into the sky, and shouts "Thing that killed my brother, I will be avenged on you!".

[OldTrees1]

Try 1: Festering Anger
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after a point in the past.
Try 2: Forced Dream
Died from NI damage 4 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 3: Diplomatic Omniscifier
Died from NI damage 3 rounds after a point in the past.
Others died 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 4: Staring Contest
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after the present
Try 5: Truenamer
Died from NI damage 3 rounds after the present
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 6: Barbaric Staring Contest
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after the present
Try 7: Pryia

Agh, the reading (nice work on that build, IMO)
Priya wins initiative without using any contingencies. However, she is somehow killed during the Time Stop. Specifically (tell me if she has any buffs active to stop any of these):
In round 2 of effective time for her (i.e. when she's dancing to cast another time stop) an (Ex) effect strips her of all abilities, including class abilities like Spelldancing, but, ah, not her buffs, so she's still immune to damage, etc.
So she survives the damage.
Then she dies (no save, not a [death] effect*, just dies).
*Even though that's cheesy. Sorry.

"just die" on the same round as the damage.
Try 8: Communing Archivist
Died from NI damage 4 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Commune failed
Try 9: d2 Crusader

At the end of round 1 you find yourself in Sigil, facing a large-sized creature made of steampunk.
In round 3 your attack misses due to incorporeality.
In round 5, you lose all abilities and then take NI damage.

Try 10: True Res Archivist
Died, soul bound
Try 11: Vecna Blooded Su Transmutation Commune
Commune Failed
Foresight gave warning of Turn 1. It is 4 rounds later that the class feature loss and damage occurs
Try 12: Post 34 not included in this summary


Conclusions:
Our Enemy is Visible, Incorporeal, Con - and can be found with a well worded Wish.
You are on a 1d4+1 round timer keyed to your personal time from the beginning of your plan*. (Spell Stowaway[Time Stop] could explain some of this)
You face "loss of class features", NI damage, and "just die".

*I might test this. There are alternative hypotheses of when the timer starts.

[Necroticplague]

The only one that breaks RAW is that the creature has regeneration.

Note to others: this means it has no con score, and thus all the immunities that entails.

[Kazyan]

Repeat the Commune, but with a Vecna-Blooded Wizard (Transmuter) 8/Cleric 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Wizard +2/Mindbender 1/Dweomerkeeper 7. Commune on the Wizard list via Wyrm Wizard, using the Spell Versatility ACF from Unearthed Arcana to make Commune into a Transmutation (so Mind Blank and Vecna-Blooded don't work anymore), and Supernatrual Spell from Dweomerkeeper to cast as a standard action that ignores SR.

This Wizard has Foresight, Superior Invisibility, and Astral Projection up at that moment. Does Foresight give any information on what's about to kill him, does a Lesser Celerity give him time to see it (via Mindsight), is he dead despite Astral Projection, and if the latter is true, is his soul recoverable from the Thinaun knife his actual body was holding onto and that his familiar will ivestigate? (Also, what happens to his familiar?)

[rockdeworld]

Can we ask if this is because you're taking a non-cheesy version of the "regardless of local conditions" line, or because the creature has some means of bypassing the cheesy version of said line?

Ah, I missed that part. In that case, my answer demands editing.

Done.

OK, my archivist's brother (also an archivist 20), who has the Craft Contingent Spell feat, crafts a contingent True Resurrection that will trigger on himself if he dies. Then he goes outside, stares up into the sky, and shouts "Thing that killed my brother, I will be avenged on you!".

I can't stop laughing XD

After dying he can't revive due to having his soul bound into a gem.

Transport wish was blocked
<snip>
You face "loss of class features", NI damage, NI ability damage and "just die".

Try 9 with transport wish is now edited. Also, I didn't mean to imply ability damage - it's straight HP damage.

Missed this:

(it was after the present right?)

Yes.

Repeat the Commune, but with a Vecna-Blooded Wizard (Transmuter) 8/Cleric 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Wizard +2/Mindbender 1/Dweomerkeeper 7. Commune on the Wizard list via Wyrm Wizard, using the Spell Versatility ACF from Unearthed Arcana to make Commune into a Transmutation (so Mind Blank and Vecna-Blooded don't work anymore), and Supernatrual Spell from Dweomerkeeper to cast as a standard action that ignores SR.

Commune fails again, despite being Transmutation and (Su) and ignoring SR.
Foresight gives you an instantaneous warning of impending danger/harm to yourself on the first round, and it's 4 rounds after this that the ability loss/damage effects take place. "The spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself": kill the creature that targeted you.

In the first round, your familiar becomes hostile towards you and attempts to kill you (likely failing).

You use Lesser Celerity, but see nothing.

Your astral body, and physical body both suffer ability loss followed by damage. The familiar stops being your familiar due to the aforementioned ability loss, then is no longer your ally (since it became hostile), so lives.

Edits: phew. I don't like double-posting though.