Erfworld thread IV: In memory of King Saline

[tomaO2]

I'm a bit interested in Charlie knowing about Stanley leaving the hex, even though it wasn't transmitted by thinkagram. Charlie's definitely got SOME assets in the area. Is it enough to kill off Stanley before he gets to safety? Maybe not but it's pretty clear that Charlie can do a mass strike any time he wants. I don't doubt that he's got a LOT of money in the bank and he can afford some crazy high losses, if he really needs to. So, yea, if Charlie makes you his sole target, and is willing to overlook the many concequences of doing so, you are dead.

The way to avoid that is to stop expanding, first off. What happened to the lead elements at SpaceRock? Are they doing anything useful? Are they still attacking or just sitting around in the city? The empire is currently too expanded. If Parson had simply razed the city, then he could have automatically had the capital moved back to GK, if I understand how that works, and then retreated the army so that he can get a defendable border set up.

Primary goals would be setting up the dwagon relay system, creating glasses that can see through foolmancy, getting some knights with said glasses on dwagons to scout around city hexes, and then have Wanda go around to kill and decrypt every damn unit in the empire.

Rinse, and repeat, until every city is brimming with 0 upkeep units. Upgrade every city to at least level 3. Get Stanley hunting to tame new dwagons, now that he has a scouting alternative to the archons that he lost earlier (not even keeping enough so Stan could keep taming was such a waste), so that his fliers can get back to strength.

Then, after everything is properly guarded, start expanding again. GK can steamroll pretty much everyone because of 0 upkeep, especially if the dwagon relay can get Wanda to the area. It's just such a massive advantage but they wasted it by over extending themselves. Expansion was fine at first, but after taking over Unaroyal, they should have taken a break.

Another thing, aren't there supposed to be casters dying from lack of upkeep? Even if GK is hated by MK, I still think it should be possible to convince suicidal casters that there is a new life that can await them if they just allow themselves to be re-popped by Wanda.

[Bird]

Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

I ask because Parson was explicitly born in 1982 and IIRC went into Erfworld in 2006, but has awareness of memes that came into use after that (the last page being a good example).

The potential explanations I have for this are:

1. New memes are necessary for comedic purposes and we're just supposed to ignore it.

2. Parson doesn't actually come from Earth, but from somewhere similar that had modern memes as well as 2006-era memes (and 2006 era Internet Explorer, and Ohio, etc).

3. Some mechanism of Erfworld gives Parson knowledge of things from after he plot'd over.

4. Erfworld has a sliding chronology, like the Marvel Universe. (For those unfamiliar--in the MU, stuff from decades ago is generally still in continuity, but is understood to have happened relatively recently instead of in the '70s or whenever. This is not so different from a "just ignore it" answer.)

[Landis963]

Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

I ask because Parson was explicitly born in 1982 and IIRC went into Erfworld in 2006, but has awareness of memes that came into use after that (the last page being a good example).

The potential explanations I have for this are:

1. New memes are necessary for comedic purposes and we're just supposed to ignore it.

2. Parson doesn't actually come from Earth, but from somewhere similar that had modern memes as well as 2006-era memes (and 2006 era Internet Explorer, and Ohio, etc).

3. Some mechanism of Erfworld gives Parson knowledge of things from after he plot'd over.

4. Erfworld has a sliding chronology, like the Marvel Universe. (For those unfamiliar--in the MU, stuff from decades ago is generally still in continuity, but is understood to have happened relatively recently instead of in the '70s or whenever. This is not so different from a "just ignore it" answer.)

I assume 3. Either natural Thinkamancy or Signamancy.

[tomaO2]

Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

Sort of, this isn't exactly the first time the whole new meme question has popped up. In the IRC chat, we discussed it during Parson's 'lolwhat?' in book two.

Unfortunately, we aren't really allowed to talk about Rob's quotes in chat. It's a rule he has said he is serious about. He might be okay with me mentioning the chat but it's not really worth risking. It was also a long time ago so he might not recall it.

That said, I would suggest that you consider memes an exception to this timeline rule and assume that Erfworld is copying new memes from Earth all the time.

[Aquillion]

I assume 3. Either natural Thinkamancy or Signamancy.

I think we have to go with "just ignore it".

The problem with any other explanation is that that means that Parson is aging at a ridiculous rate -- if it is 2014 in-comic, Parson is now 32 or so, meaning he has aged eight years since the comic began. We could possibly explain this by saying time flows differently or whatever, but I suspect that that will not be the case if he ever contacts Earth again.

[HalfTangible]

Then, after everything is properly guarded, start expanding again. GK can steamroll pretty much everyone because of 0 upkeep, especially if the dwagon relay can get Wanda to the area. It's just such a massive advantage but they wasted it by over extending themselves. Expansion was fine at first, but after taking over Unaroyal, they should have taken a break.

See the summer updates. They did.

[Porthos]

Up-up-update!

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Silly thought, but I wonder if Parson could use his little gizmo to figure out the odds that he will indeed regret taking the deal.

Though, come to think of it, I'm reminded of a certain truism regarding Deveels.

Probably doesn't matter in this case. Parson knows he's gonna get screwed, but he still can't pass it up. Worst kinda deal, really.

[Aquillion]

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I like Wanda's "fate will guard him." Pretty sure it is, Wanda. For a Fateist, she doesn't really have a firm handle on her own philosophy.

Anyway, it's obviously a trap, but the problem is that Parson is bound by Duty. He literally can't reject this offer, and Charlie knows it.

[VariaVespasa]

Not entirely true. He could pass the decision to Stanley to make. And he could use the bracer on the offer, as was suggested.

[Killer Angel]

Not entirely true. He could pass the decision to Stanley to make. And he could use the bracer on the offer, as was suggested.

It seems to me that, for once, Parson wants to play safely. Even if he doesn't like the possible implications, the risk is, indeed, great.

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, Parson is playing it safe and I think it's the right choice. Parson did run the numbers with the bracer and he knows of there is a 20% chance Stanley could be killed. And that's just for the forces Parson knows about. If Charlie has some Archons in the area, the odds could get a LOT worse very quickly. Even with just a 20% chance of Stanley getting killed, it's not worth the risk of ending the entire side JUST to get Jillian. Even if she is going to be a major PITA at soem future point.

[guttering flame]

We know Parson's braser takes Fate into account (from the calculations he made about returning to his world when Spacerock was on fire) so Wanda is probably wrong. Fate is not protecting Stanley.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Yeah, Parson is playing it safe and I think it's the right choice. Parson did run the numbers with the bracer and he knows of there is a 20% chance Stanley could be killed. And that's just for the forces Parson knows about. If Charlie has some Archons in the area, the odds could get a LOT worse very quickly. Even with just a 20% chance of Stanley getting killed, it's not worth the risk of ending the entire side JUST to get Jillian. Even if she is going to be a major PITA at soem future point.

Truth be told, I still think Capturing Jillian is the safest choice here, if Charlie at all attacks while she is in transport execute her instantly. Negotiate for her release once Stanley is at Jetstone surrounded by Decrypted.

[TheStranger]

No way this ends well for GK. On its face, taking this offer seems like the safe, smart move - it's too risky to leave Stanley exposed to an unknown force. But I can't imagine that this isn't some type of trap. Though I wouldn't put it past Stanley to just attack while Parson's still negotiating, either. One way or another, it's awfully convenient that almost every important GK unit is in the magic kingdom right now.

[slayerx]

Truth be told, I still think Capturing Jillian is the safest choice here, if Charlie at all attacks while she is in transport execute her instantly. Negotiate for her release once Stanley is at Jetstone surrounded by Decrypted.

Charlie made it clear he wanted Jillian to remain in fighting form and not have to start over. Charlie may be more than willing to risk Jillian to spite Parson for capturing Jillian and ruining her side. When it comes down to it, who has more to loose? Charlie, or GK? For Charlie, loosing Jillian is a serious set back, but for GK, loosing Stanley means game over. Charlie can risk Jillian, but Parson can't risk Stanley.

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I like Wanda's "fate will guard him." Pretty sure it is, Wanda. For a Fateist, she doesn't really have a firm handle on her own philosophy.

Anyway, it's obviously a trap, but the problem is that Parson is bound by Duty. He literally can't reject this offer, and Charlie knows it.

Kinda reminds me of that old Joke about the guy who relied on god to save him during a flood.

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So a guy gets stuck in his home during a flood. A boat comes by and offers to help him, but he refuses saying God will protect him.
The water gets higher and another boat comes by, and the guy again refuses saying god will protect him.
The water gets so high the guy is stuck on the roof and a helicopter offers to help but he once again refuses.
The guy drowns and goes to heaven and asks God why he did not save him.
God replies, "What do you mean? I sent you two boats and a helicopter"

Y'know for all wanda knows Charlie offering this deal, and Parson excepting this deal IS fate's way of protecting Stanley. You might even say that Fate helpped ansom get loose so that he could not only save Stanley from Jillian, but also to help turn the tide of battle just enough that Charlie would be forced to make a truce and leave Stanley alone instead of going after him next turn.


Really, one probalme with Wanda's fatalist beliefs is that she doesn't actually KNOW fate's plans; she only THINKS she knows. Her entire thesis that fate will protect her and Stanley is based on them being attuned, but she should know that isn't true. Blair and Bell were the former owners of the Arkendish and arken shows, but fate did not protect them... and when Judy attuned to the shoes she managed to leave the game. 3 attuned wielders of the arken tools and fate did not prevent them from leaving the game. If fate did not keep those 3 in the game, then why will it keep Stanley or Wanda? There is good reason to think that they do not have divine protection and it would be foolish to assume they do.

[guttering flame]

I can't buy that Charlie's trying to save Jillian for her own sake. He lost interest in her as soon as he completed that mind-scrub in book 0. The one who promoted her back into importance was Ansom and later Trasilvito's king. So why does he view her as vital now all of a sudden. Th idea that Wanda could make her reveal his secrets through uncroaking doesn't make a lot of sense. Parson already heard them from Jack and it's a safe bet that Charlie knows Jack's status. He was in Spacerock when it burned to a crisp and than returned with Wanda and Parson good as new to the magic kingdom, unlike the half burnt Parson. What could Jillian tell Parson that he hasn't already heard from Jack?

My theory is that Jillian is not the thing Charlie is trying to protect. What he wants to protect is in fact the unpopped Faq heir. This new Banhammer could take over Jillian's role as the instrument of Fate and wouldn't have her connections to Wanda which Charlie probably sees as problematic. He'd be more tractable and open to Charlie's manipulations. (This also explains why the Faq-heir subplot is in the story) If Jillian fell captive or was killed right now, the heir would be frozen or destroyed so Charlie needs to keep Jillian free for a few more turns until the heir is safely popped. As soon as the heir arrives Charlie would move to assassinate her.




I've reread book 0 recently and got to wondering what were the long-term changes Charlie and Betsy caused in Jillian's character when they mind-raped her. Some think that Charlie erased Jillian free will, sense of duty or her connection to Fate but I was more interested in how Betsy changed her. Obviously Betsy didn't manage to make Jillian a pacifist. Even before Faq fell, Jillian was still a mercenary leader. So what did Betsy's meddling do? They seemed to be quite extensive so they should have had some effect. Betsy dumped out things that looked ugly to her and probably encouraged nice things:

• Betsy drifted away, toward something like Jillian‘s ideas of happiness, contentedness. Green meadows and safety.

Then I thought, what about Jillian love-life? In the current story Jillian is all about Ansom. How does he fit her previous anti-royal mannered self? He doesn't. He's nice and handsome, all about fancy tea sets and protecting Jillian from the dangers of war.

[Aquillion]

Wanda just confirmed that the reason she needs to decrypt Jillian is related to Charlie's NDA, and that it's something Jack doesn't know about.

[halfeye]

This new Banhammer

Is Banhammer a surname? I'm pretty sure Jillian's surname is Zamussels, couldn't the king's personal name have been Banhammer?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Zamussels was her 'stage name' when doing merc work, not her (Royalist) family name. She's been referred to as Banhammer since taking the throne.

[Legato Endless]

The King's first name was Loj.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

The King's first name was Loj.

Which means if he took his Daughters name, he'd be:

Loj Zamussels.

Large Zamussels.

[Welf]

I wonder if Parson could have gotten out of it more. Like capturing the caster and croaking all high level warlords. They are not necessary for Jillian to survive

Loj Zamussels? Would that be "Lots of muscles"? I never get these puns.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I wonder if Parson could have gotten out of it more. Like capturing the caster and croaking all high level warlords. They are not necessary for Jillian to survive

Loj Zamussels? Would that be "Lots of muscles"? I never get these puns.

Oh yeah! Actually, it would probably be "Loads of Muscles".

Edit: I guess it depends how you pronounce it - Low-jah. Lah-juh. La-j. eh, who knows.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, that pun's probably Large Ban Hammer.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I think it is premature to assume Parson has fully taken the deal yet, look at his orders to Stanley

"Do not attack, yet" yet implies that Parson thinks the Negotiation has a chance of falling through.

[Killer Angel]

Why aren't we discussing Forecastle's update?

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F. really has an habit, in dealing with superstitions...

[Kornaki]

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An unexplained hole in the bottom of the ship? Sounds like the work of the secret Anchorbar weapon. Mayhaps the frigate is immune to whatever it is.

[Fjolnir]

submarines or torpedoes?

[Math_Mage]

Fish. Divers. Squid.

[Avaris]

Fish. Divers. Squid.

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Thinking about it, it's fairly clear where this is going, which I suspect means Forecastle will end soon. Anchorbar has warlords on all their ships, and it seems only warlords can tame wild creatures. Therefore the warlords are there to tame the squid.