necropolitans

[Ettina]

What is their story? Are there any living people in their town, or only undead?

My brother has an idea for a Corpse Bride-like plot involving an arranged marriage with a necropolitan girl. His character undergoes the transformation and marries her, and then they get attacked by a paladin who kills his bride. He swears revenge and goes after the guy. Does that sound plausible? Where might this guy have come from before his marriage?

[Eonir]

Necropolitans have no formal society. They can be plugged into an existing society or in some kind of Necropolis.

[Phelix-Mu]

What is their story? Are there any living people in their town, or only undead?

My brother has an idea for a Corpse Bride-like plot involving an arranged marriage with a necropolitan girl. His character undergoes the transformation and marries her, and then they get attacked by a paladin who kills his bride. He swears revenge and goes after the guy. Does that sound plausible? Where might this guy have come from before his marriage?

It's plausible, but I'd be tempted to have there be something more complicated going on with the paladin. Righteous Sword and so forth are horribly cliched approaches to a paladin npc, and this would be a good point at which to have some plot complication (like the paladin was under some geas to slay all undead, as punishment for being involved in [insert plot device]). While slaying undead is important, it's probably not as important as fighting actual evil, so a paladin might be forgiven for being merciful toward non-evil necropolitans that had committed no evil (other than existing...*sigh*). Mercy and compassion are also obligations of a paladin, and oft-forgotten among the general Douche Paladin anti-paladin sentiment.

[infomatic]

Seconded. Possible alternative:

1. Prominent family's daughter has incurable disease, they transform her into Necropolitan to "save" her. They don't tell anybody else; use magic to disguise her, because having a Corpse for a daughter doesn't go over well at parties.

2. Party gets to town, helps the family recover McGuffin. PC falls for Corpse Bride. (Doesn't know yet)

3. Meanwhile, across town, undead cult springs up beneath temple. NPC priest knows a ritual that will purge the infestation. (For extra pathos, have PCs help him, defending priest during ritual, etc.)

4. Ritual goes off, destroying Corpse Bride in collateral damage. PC discovers ashes of C.B. back at home. "You're welcome," says the Cleric, and leaves. PC angry, swears Vengeance®.

(He could also persuade the family to transform him into a Necopolitan at this point, out of solidarity or something, but changing yourself into Undead and THEN going after a Cleric seems a bit dumb.)

[Venger]

What is their story? Are there any living people in their town, or only undead?

My brother has an idea for a Corpse Bride-like plot involving an arranged marriage with a necropolitan girl. His character undergoes the transformation and marries her, and then they get attacked by a paladin who kills his bride. He swears revenge and goes after the guy. Does that sound plausible? Where might this guy have come from before his marriage?

some necropolitans live "the little-known city of Nocturnus" where they can be accepted by fellow necropolitans, but it doesn't speak of the city's demographic information, leaving it in your purview. If you want to have some non-genocidal living characters interacting favorably with the necropolitans, like in corpse bride, then that would be canon-compatible.

yeah, that's plausible. paladins are susceptible to being butts in just as much of a proportion as anyone else.

It's plausible, but I'd be tempted to have there be something more complicated going on with the paladin. Righteous Sword and so forth are horribly cliched approaches to a paladin npc, and this would be a good point at which to have some plot complication (like the paladin was under some geas to slay all undead, as punishment for being involved in [insert plot device]). While slaying undead is important, it's probably not as important as fighting actual evil, so a paladin might be forgiven for being merciful toward non-evil necropolitans that had committed no evil (other than existing...*sigh*). Mercy and compassion are also obligations of a paladin, and oft-forgotten among the general Douche Paladin anti-paladin sentiment.

it's not really necessary, since the husband character is the hero of the story and the pally's the bad guy, so he could have just kiled the emily character for racist reasons. or if it bothers OP, his dm could just make it one of the evil pally variants, since he killed someone who wasn't doing anything wrong for no reason.

Seconded. Possible alternative:

1. Prominent family's daughter has incurable disease, they transform her into Necropolitan to "save" her. They don't tell anybody else; use magic to disguise her.

2. Party gets to town, helps the family recover McGuffin. PC falls for Corpse Bride. (Doesn't know yet)

3. Meanwhile, across town, undead cult springs up beneath temple. NPC priest knows a ritual that will purge the infestation. (For extra pathos, have PCs help him, defending priest during ritual, etc.)

4. Ritual goes off, destroying Corpse Bride in collateral damage. PC discovers ashes of C.B. back at home. "You're welcome," says the Cleric, and leaves. PC angry, swears Vengeance®.

(He could also persuade the family to transform him into a Necopolitan at this point, out of solidarity or something, but changing yourself into Undead and THEN going after a Cleric seems a bit dumb.)

not really. he said paladin, not cleric. paladins' ability to turn undead is severely limited, and necropolitans have turn resistance anyways, so he's in no real danger of being killed by that alone.

[infomatic]

not really. he said paladin, not cleric. paladins' ability to turn undead is severely limited, and necropolitans have turn resistance anyways, so he's in no real danger of being killed by that alone.

I know that. I changed the story. With good reason: In addition to being overused, the Heartless, Single-Minded Paladin makes for a pretty poor nemesis because they aren't a real threat. You want a good long-term foe to swear vengeance on, have some guts and challenge a Tier One.

[Venger]

I know that. I changed the story. With good reason: In addition to being overused, the Heartless, Single-Minded Paladin makes for a pretty poor nemesis because they aren't a real threat. You want a good long-term foe to swear vengeance on, have some guts and challenge a Tier One.

I'm confused. Are you the DM?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by infomatic
You want a good long-term foe to swear vengeance on, have some guts and challenge a Tier One.

Rather than a paladin, how about a druid? I could see a druid on a crusade to eradicate any trace of the twisted unliving. What they've done doesn't matter, any more than it matters than an invasive weed produces berries that some birds might like; the fact is that the undead have no place in the living world, and the druid takes his role as guardian with the utmost severity. The dead should decay, and return to the living; those which do not--are a wrongness upon the earth which cannot be tolerated, only destroyed.

[infomatic]

I'm confused. Are you the DM?

Of course not. As my post notes, I'm suggesting a "Possible alternative".

Ettina pitched a story idea. I pitched one back. Ettina can use the idea or ignore it.

[Segev]

My biggest problem with the tale as presented is that it should result in one (1) fallen paladin who is now forced to atone for his sin, if he even can. He committed an evil and unlawful act: he struck, at best, without any investigation or understanding of the situation (rather chaotic as a general rule, unless there's imminent harm to be prevented by immediate action). He struck down an innocent girl (albeit an undead one), and striking down innocents is evil. He may have believed she was evil based on "undead=evil," but that is a snap judgment made with no excuse of preventing imminent harm. It may be enough to fall into "unwitting" evil, which would allow him to atone, but it still is both a chaotic and evil act.

Normally, I wouldn't hold "unwitting evil" against a paladin in most circumstances where it actually comes up. "I didn't know that the mushroom I trampled in my haste to rescue the fairy princess was actually her life-force!" is not really something you can reasonably expect the paladin to know better, nor to have time nor reason to stop and examine. But here, he sees an undead girl and does nothing but immediately kill her. He could have thought "undead==evil," but it still behooves him to, unless she's actively perpetrating harm to others right then, refrain from violence until he finds out what she's up to. His imprudent action led to unwitting evil when he could have known better if he'd tried. That's why I hold him responsible enough to lose his powers, but not so much that I wouldn't let him atone.

Regardless, the paladin shouldn't be a paladin anymore. This makes the revenge-seeking a bit less of a challenge (though he IS still a dude in heavy armor with a sharp pointy bit of metal). What might make it interesting is to go out for revenge and discover the paladin is desperately trying to atone for his error and has learned from it; he has his powers when encountered because he's successfully atoned.

[Venger]

Of course not. As my post notes, I'm suggesting a "Possible alternative".

Ettina pitched a story idea. I pitched one back. Ettina can use the idea or ignore it.

oh, okay, I gotcha.

[Extra Anchovies]

changing yourself into Undead and THEN going after a Cleric seems a bit dumb.)

Not with Human Heritage (which incidentally also lets both positive and negative energy heal you - woop!).

[Venger]

Not with Human Heritage (which incidentally also lets both positive and negative energy heal you - woop!).

Remember! You can take this as a Human, leading your statblock to read: Undead (Augmented Humanoid) (Human)

[Ettina]

Normally, I wouldn't hold "unwitting evil" against a paladin in most circumstances where it actually comes up. "I didn't know that the mushroom I trampled in my haste to rescue the fairy princess was actually her life-force!" is not really something you can reasonably expect the paladin to know better, nor to have time nor reason to stop and examine. But here, he sees an undead girl and does nothing but immediately kill her. He could have thought "undead==evil," but it still behooves him to, unless she's actively perpetrating harm to others right then, refrain from violence until he finds out what she's up to. His imprudent action led to unwitting evil when he could have known better if he'd tried. That's why I hold him responsible enough to lose his powers, but not so much that I wouldn't let him atone.

In some settings, I'd agree with you. But in D&D, the vast majority of undead are always evil. Non-evil undead like necropolitans are extremely rare. I'd find it pretty plausible that a paladin might not know non-evil undead exist, in which case it's not reasonable for him to think an undead could possibly be an innocent. He lives in a world where some races of beings are just plain irredeemably evil, and he has every reason to think undead fall into that category.

If he knew she was a necropolitan, or even that it was possible she might be, then I'd judge differently. But most paladins, even if they deliberately go out and hunt undead, are not going to run into any non-evil undead. And I get the strong impression that most people don't know about necropolitans.

[Venger]

In some settings, I'd agree with you. But in D&D, the vast majority of undead are always evil. Non-evil undead like necropolitans are extremely rare. I'd find it pretty plausible that a paladin might not know non-evil undead exist, in which case it's not reasonable for him to think an undead could possibly be an innocent. He lives in a world where some races of beings are just plain irredeemably evil, and he has every reason to think undead fall into that category.

If he knew she was a necropolitan, or even that it was possible she might be, then I'd judge differently. But most paladins, even if they deliberately go out and hunt undead, are not going to run into any non-evil undead. And I get the strong impression that most people don't know about necropolitans.

so do you want your paladin character archenemy to be a good guy or a bad guy?

[Phelix-Mu]

In some settings, I'd agree with you. But in D&D, the vast majority of undead are always evil. Non-evil undead like necropolitans are extremely rare. I'd find it pretty plausible that a paladin might not know non-evil undead exist, in which case it's not reasonable for him to think an undead could possibly be an innocent. He lives in a world where some races of beings are just plain irredeemably evil, and he has every reason to think undead fall into that category.

If he knew she was a necropolitan, or even that it was possible she might be, then I'd judge differently. But most paladins, even if they deliberately go out and hunt undead, are not going to run into any non-evil undead. And I get the strong impression that most people don't know about necropolitans.

To be clear, no paladin should ever find themselves in a situation where they have an opportunity to use detect evil, but don't and just kill something on a hunch, or because there is a general trend in that race's alignment. The final sanction (death) is a serious judgement to levy, and it comes with great responsibility. If a paladin were to kill the wrong person due to human error, deception, racism, or miscommunication, it would be a grave thing indeed, and at the very least demand atonement (not the spell necessarily, but an effort to make up for the mistake...plausibly including having the person raised from the dead if it was a major error and the party is high level). And there is no reason not to, with detect evil at will (unless in mass combat where there is no time to do so). Paladins are beings of law, and must have evidence of wrongdoing, not just probable wrongdoing. Detect evil gives them the evidence they need.

[atemu1234]

I both like and hate Necropolitans. They are really cool, both as characters and as interestingly-backstoried NPCs, but they become stale and boring after a very short time, simply because they aren't... different. I stopped using the normal vampire template for a while for the same reason, and now I've introduced it back with the ones from Book of Templates and Advanced Bestiary. All in all, when it comes to Necropolitans, they're interesting for a bit.

They live in the city of Nocturnus, whose demographics are pretty much up to you.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, they tend to pop up all the time in optimization exercises, which rather straightjackets possible themes by putting the horse before the cart, in my mind. If you want to play undead, that's cool. But if you want to play x, and undead seems a strong choice, think long and hard. It should have a serious role play component, as the Ritual of Crucimigration is nothing less than a radically life-changing event to undergo. Shoehorning it into a concept on optimization grounds seems remarkably common, and rubs my demographic representation pet peeve the wrong way.

[Necroticplague]

Not with Human Heritage (which incidentally also lets both positive and negative energy heal you - woop!).

Actually, it makes it so that you heal from inflict but are immune to cure. Cure has 2 classes of creatures that it effects: living creatures and undead. You would be neither, so they poke you with a cure spell, which then does nothing. Healing from negative energy, however, is an undead trait that you possess.

[Deadline]

In some settings, I'd agree with you. But in D&D, the vast majority of undead are always evil.

It's worth noting that any creature with the Undead type radiates evil, and shows up to a Detect Evil spell, no matter what alignment the undead creature has.

In other words, there really isn't such a thing as a non-evil undead, unless you are using the Deathless type from BoED. You can have a Lawful Good Necropolitan, and still show up on a Detect Evil spell as evil (you also show up on Detect Law and Detect Good).

The same thing happens with creatures who have alignment subtypes. You could have a Lawful Good Succubus, and it will show up on all of the Detect [Alignment] spells.

[Venger]

It's worth noting that any creature with the Undead type radiates evil, and shows up to a Detect Evil spell, no matter what alignment the undead creature has.

In other words, there really isn't such a thing as a non-evil undead, unless you are using the Deathless type from BoED. You can have a Lawful Good Necropolitan, and still show up on a Detect Evil spell as evil (you also show up on Detect Law and Detect Good).

The same thing happens with creatures who have alignment subtypes. You could have a Lawful Good Succubus, and it will show up on all of the Detect [Alignment] spells.

all the more reason a paladin who was putting even the smallest bit of effort into not being a giant tool walking around committing hate crimes wouldn't default to going full CLEAVEANSMITE on anything that pinged on his detect evil radar.

but again, a nonissue if OP wants the paladin character to be a bad guy.

[Rater202]

Where is human heritage, anyway?

[Venger]

Where is human heritage, anyway?

races of destiny, p 152.