Crusader Kings 2 Thread III: Keeping Up With The Karlings

[Pokonic]

Spoiler: The power of the Seduction focus

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[OrcusMcP]

Okay, I'm gonna gripe for a moment. (this may or may not be relevant to my LP)

I get that the Muslim empires were getting way too decadent too fast in the older system, and to survive as a player you had to play a game of murder all your brothers/nephews/cousins/former-roommates to keep it down. But under the current system, especially in the older bookmarks when the Umayyads and Abbasids already start with powerful leaders, land and tech, it seems almost impossible for them to succumb to any kind of decadence. I never see Asturias last longer than 50 years. The Abbasids always manage to paint half the map green. It's frustrating. They never turn on each other, either, because they always inter-marry. Ugh.

/griping

[Leecros]

I get that the Muslim empires were getting way too decadent too fast in the older system, and to survive as a player you had to play a game of murder all your brothers/nephews/cousins/former-roommates to keep it down. But under the current system, especially in the older bookmarks when the Umayyads and Abbasids already start with powerful leaders, land and tech, it seems almost impossible for them to succumb to any kind of decadence. I never see Asturias last longer than 50 years. The Abbasids always manage to paint half the map green. It's frustrating. They never turn on each other, either, because they always inter-marry. Ugh.

It's something that i've notice happen to Empires in general. Unless they're getting conquered by a more powerful nation, Empires just rarely fall apart completely. A good example is Francia, If Francia never forms, then the Karling nations collapse into pieces eventually and go on to murder each other for years and years, but if Francia or the HRE does form, then that nation generally persists until the end of the game, or they get conquered by an external force. The ruling family might change, but rarely do they collapse from the inside.

Comparatively speaking, i've seen Kingdoms collapse to the point where the King title doesn't even exist anymore. A specific example would be Pictland in my current game as Saxony. Pictland has collapsed to the point where there was no King of the Picts twice in the last 200 years.

It's like the Emperor level is a threshold where it's very difficult for your nation to collapse from the inside. Which, of course, means that unless there's a bigger and better threat, they just keep growing and growing.

of course i've seen the Abbasids and Umayyads collapse, but the number of the games where they haven't far outweigh the games where they did.

Then there was the game where the Umayyads went Orthodox. Yeah...that was kind of weird.

[Corvus]

I've found out the hard way that de jure drift has some problems in my current Poland game. At the time I had the option to form the kingdoms of Lithuania and Rutenia I didn't have the cash to spare, so most of those lands drifted into Poland. Fast forward a couple of centuries and the Empire is having vassal limit problems because there are just too many dukes in the Kingdom of Poland. And bizarrely, the lords of the Empire are refusing to allow me to lower centralization so I can have more vassals.

And in other news from the game, I knew that having all those orthodox greeks flooding the Slavic Church was going to cause problems. A new high priest came to power and he was terrible. Not a single positive ability. Got given the name Ill-Ruler straight away and then decided it was time to call a Great Holy War on the Byzantiums, who are by far the most powerful nation around. The purple blob has taken over most of the Balkans (but for the part I snatched in he north), all of southern Italy, there is a Scandinavian Duchy and they stomped on a fractured Abassids all the way to the Caspian and then took another 5 or so Duchies from them. Luckily for the Slavs that the Warriors of Perun own half of Germany and could bring 20K to aid the cause. 4 years later I owned Bulgaria, which I handed over to a relative to run for me as a vassal.

[Actana]

I think I just had my current Roman Empire game implode upon itself. Having conquered almost the entirety of Europe and the Middle East up to India (I owned everything barring Avaria and Cumania which were still around because truces last forever - all in all there were around 12 independent states left in the world, most of them in India), I was faced with the first independence rebellion in a long time. However, the last time it happened both sides had had around 50k troops at best. This time both sides had over 500k troops scattered across the world, and also some 100k Aztecs running around South France disrupting the rebels. The game slowed to a crawl, loading seconds for every day passing. Eventually I think the game decided to call quits and crash, and I'm not entirely sure I want to continue playing it like that.

Still, it was nice to see over a million troops mobilized in a war. Was certainly a lot to manage.

[Anxe]

I think I just had my current Roman Empire game implode upon itself. Having conquered almost the entirety of Europe and the Middle East up to India (I owned everything barring Avaria and Cumania which were still around because truces last forever - all in all there were around 12 independent states left in the world, most of them in India), I was faced with the first independence rebellion in a long time. However, the last time it happened both sides had had around 50k troops at best. This time both sides had over 500k troops scattered across the world, and also some 100k Aztecs running around South France disrupting the rebels. The game slowed to a crawl, loading seconds for every day passing. Eventually I think the game decided to call quits and crash, and I'm not entirely sure I want to continue playing it like that.

Still, it was nice to see over a million troops mobilized in a war. Was certainly a lot to manage.

Funny. I never learned about World War 0 in my history class. :P

[Squark]

Funny. I never learned about World War 0 in my history class. :P

My history teachers have argued that the seven year's war (Americans like me call it the French and Indian War) counts as a world war as it included major powers in America, Europe, and Asia, and there was fighting in Africa and the Phillipines as well.

Granted, there might be an even earlier conflict that at least included Europe, Asia, and Africa, but I don't recall one.

EDIT: Also, game balance aside, weren't the Islamic states relatively stable apart from the Mongolian Invasion? I mean, the Ottomans eventually appeared, but a quick wikipedia check confirms that the Abbassids existed for about 750 years? It should be difficult to dislodge them, shouldn't it?

[Leecros]

EDIT: Also, game balance aside, weren't the Islamic states relatively stable apart from the Mongolian Invasion? I mean, the Ottomans eventually appeared, but a quick wikipedia check confirms that the Abbassids existed for about 750 years? It should be difficult to dislodge them, shouldn't it?

The Abbassids existed for a long time as Caliph, but by The Old Gods start, they were a shadow of their former glory, with Egypt and large parts of Persia and Arabia getting their independence. After the Seljuk Invasion, they became a minor subject state to the Turks. Then under The Mamluks after the Mongol Invasions displaced them.



in other news, i managed to become King of Saxony and England, getting the achievement for it and creating the Germanic Saxon Empire. However, my vassals keep conquering land in Brittania. Making it hard for me to reign them in and keep them under control as they all blob out.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

The mechanics are based on Ibn al-Khaldun's history, which was based on the history of Andalusia and North Africa, in which one does see a cycle of righteous tribal revolutions that then become decadent and get overthrown in turn.

Doesn't work as well for the main bit of the middle east though. The abbasids stopped being more than figureheads after the Buyids managed to coopt the state and rule over the Abbasids.

[Anxe]

Can someone explain how Merchant Republics work for me?

I'm not running the DLC or anything, but I'm trying to get money from them so I can start upgrading my counties even faster. I'm the HRE and I have control over Venice and soon Pisa. From what I understand I have to create the Duchy of Venice/Pisa and then grant it to a Mayor. I did this and then there was an event about all these new patrician families in Venice. I figure I did that part right.

I waited for the patrician families to set up their trade posts and was expecting the money to start rolling in, but my income only went up by 1/year (probably from some other unrelated change in the Empire). So am I doing this right? Do I have to change my taxation system to start getting money from the Patricians? I don't have Feudal taxes on right now, does that need to go on?

Thanks for the help!

[OrcusMcP]

Can someone explain how Merchant Republics work for me?

I'm not running the DLC or anything, but I'm trying to get money from them so I can start upgrading my counties even faster. I'm the HRE and I have control over Venice and soon Pisa. From what I understand I have to create the Duchy of Venice/Pisa and then grant it to a Mayor. I did this and then there was an event about all these new patrician families in Venice. I figure I did that part right.

I waited for the patrician families to set up their trade posts and was expecting the money to start rolling in, but my income only went up by 1/year (probably from some other unrelated change in the Empire). So am I doing this right? Do I have to change my taxation system to start getting money from the Patricians? I don't have Feudal taxes on right now, does that need to go on?

Thanks for the help!

Yes, it sounds like you set them up right, but the republics are not quite the money factory they used to be. The republic and the patricians fall under Burgher Tax Laws, but they also pay 50% less tax off the top. EDIT TO ADD: Republics are absolutely money factories for THEMSELVES, but not as much for their lieges.

You will probably still get more money from the republic than if it was a duchy, but if you're the HRE (or any empire, really) then you will likely get far more tax money by increasing your feudal taxes than by trying to make a bunch of republics.

[Guancyto]

I thought the key with vassal republics was that they created trade posts everywhere, substantially improving the income of your coastal cities (without having to worry about all the problems that come with independent republics).

Although truth be known I mostly just like them.

[OrcusMcP]

I thought the key with vassal republics was that they created trade posts everywhere, substantially improving the income of your coastal cities (without having to worry about all the problems that come with independent republics).

Although truth be known I mostly just like them.

A trade post will increase the tax value of the whole county, not just the cities, and the more of them that are contiguous the better they are. So yes, that will also increase your income. It's also a much longer term increase if you're building a republic up from scratch.

I still maintain that once you are at the empire stage, increasing your feudal taxes will give you a more instantaneous boost from all your dukes/kings under you.

[Flickerdart]

From what I understand I have to create the Duchy of Venice/Pisa and then grant it to a Mayor. I did this and then there was an event about all these new patrician families in Venice. I figure I did that part right.

This is indeed correct, but note two things:
1: Any coastal duchy can be made into a trade republic, not just Pisa/Venice/Amalfi/etc.
2: You may not want to make more than one Republic in the same sea - they are notorious about fighting each other. As the HREmperor, you should be able to set up something in the North or Baltic Sea without risking meddlesome Italians stabbing one another over scraps of land.

[Anxe]

A trade post will increase the tax value of the whole county, not just the cities, and the more of them that are contiguous the better they are. So yes, that will also increase your income. It's also a much longer term increase if you're building a republic up from scratch.

I still maintain that once you are at the empire stage, increasing your feudal taxes will give you a more instantaneous boost from all your dukes/kings under you.

So how long are talking here? I imagine the patrician who built it gets a cut and then the Lord Mayor gets a cut before I get my taste. Do the trade posts become more valuable over time?

Now that you guys have mentioned it I definitely want to try setting one up in the Baltic and another in England or Jerusalem if I get the chance (Other places I control/soon will control).

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Depending on how late in the game it is, Baltic and England Republics may conflict with each other. In my latest England game, the Republic of the Channel Isles' only competitor is Bremen. The only other republics are Pisa (exiled to Sardinia for an interesting century) and, for a time, a Muslim Republic in western Libya.

[OrcusMcP]

So how long are talking here? I imagine the patrician who built it gets a cut and then the Lord Mayor gets a cut before I get my taste. Do the trade posts become more valuable over time?

Now that you guys have mentioned it I definitely want to try setting one up in the Baltic and another in England or Jerusalem if I get the chance (Other places I control/soon will control).

Long. It's hard to give an exact timeline, because the patricians need money and good relations and time to build up the trade network. And Flickerdart's advice is sound, it's better to have a republic in the Med and one in the Baltic if you're the HRE. Did the Hansa event fire? Or are you too late/early?

And yes, the trade post patrician gets a cut, the doge/lord mayor gets a cut, then you get yours, which is 50% of whatever your normal Burgher cut is. Feudal taxes. Raise them. Even the lowest level that gets you money will up your income SO MUCH as an emperor.

[Artanis]

Honestly, the best use I've found for Republic vassals as an Emperor is to have a one-stop source for ALL THE BOATS for hauling around troops. Like OrcusMcP says, if you want more money, raise Feudal taxes one notch.

[Anxe]

Had to look up that Hansa event to find out what it is. Nope! Hasn't happened and its looking like it won't happen given how late in the game it is.

So the advice is just wait and don't have my republics be in the same region. And also raise feudal taxes. I've avoided that before as the relationship penalty always seemed worse than getting the money. Troops have always seemed way more useful than gold to me.

[tyckspoon]

Had to look up that Hansa event to find out what it is. Nope! Hasn't happened and its looking like it won't happen given how late in the game it is.

So the advice is just wait and don't have my republics be in the same region. And also raise feudal taxes. I've avoided that before as the relationship penalty always seemed worse than getting the money. Troops have always seemed way more useful than gold to me.

By Empire level you can do most of your work with demesne, retinue, and mercenary troops, all of which are more loyal, more reliable, and easier to wrangle than vassal levies, and are directly supported by your gold income.

[Tentreto]

Just recently started playing CK2, and I definitely like it. I went for a deep end start and randomed my first playthrough on the Old Gods and was the count of Celle.
Around 400 years later, as ruler of the Holy Roman empire over Germany, Hungary, somehow Greece and Jerusalem, I only have about ten years left, hoping the Telids don't jihad, as I am literally bordering their capital.
My only problem is that the game slows to a crawl when they do jihad, the game essentially slows to a crawl. Is there any real way of helping this?

[DBear]

Religion in my game is just getting weird. The HRE went Lollard and are being gradually carved up by the Catholic rest of Europe. Denmark is the major beneficiary as they now control Italy and Germany. The queen of Denmark is also kin.
The Golden Horde is now Catholic. I have no idea how that happened and wasn't aware of it until they started showing up as "eligible bachelors".
The strangest of all, Norway went Shia! Free holy war for me as Empire of Alba, and I already control Sweden and Finland.
Spain has cleared out the Muslims but has horrible bordergore right now.

[Anxe]

Just recently started playing CK2, and I definitely like it. I went for a deep end start and randomed my first playthrough on the Old Gods and was the count of Celle.
Around 400 years later, as ruler of the Holy Roman empire over Germany, Hungary, somehow Greece and Jerusalem, I only have about ten years left, hoping the Telids don't jihad, as I am literally bordering their capital.
My only problem is that the game slows to a crawl when they do jihad, the game essentially slows to a crawl. Is there any real way of helping this?

Without getting a new PC? I'm not sure. There might be some settings you can play with to reduce the animations that go into army movements and battles.

[Leecros]

I really wish there were more limitations on the Ilkhanate and Golden Horde to prevent them from murdering each other as soon as the Golden Horde arrives. Especially considering the Mongol Hordes were largely united until the 1300's. Even then, The Yuan Dynasty was technically their overlord...Although the relations between the various hordes and the yuan quickly deteriorated over the years.

I know that generally the Ilkhanate is supposed to expand into Persia and Arabia and the Golden Horde is supposed to expand farther north, but they sure seem to like murdering each other over the the land in between them. It's not even a decade since the Golden Horde appeared and both hordes have already pretty much burned through their event spawned troops fighting each other.

[Anxe]

Okay! Asking for advice once more.

The feudal taxes thing has worked out great and I am now swimming in money. My next issue is further expansion. I've taken over most of Europe and am now pushing into Russia. I'm soon going to run into a problem though where Holy War will be my only Casus Belli left to use. Is there anything else I can use to start taking land from the Mongols and the Muslims? I'd like that "Request Invasion" thing the Pope has, but he won't grant it to me anymore because I'm so gigantic.

So any other ideas besides expanding Duchy by Duchy?

[Actana]

Try undermining the vassals of the larger empires, hopefully sparking rebellions. That should make it a bit easier to pick off the states one by one. Usurping kingdom titles and the like is always an option, as well as pressing claims on duchies that won't eventually be absorbed back into the nation you took it from.

A personal favorite tactic of mine was to give a county I've owned for a long time to the person I'm pressing a claim on (especially if it's a larger kingdom title), making them my vassal until the claim is pressed. Once the claim is won, the new areas will also be yours. Then, you can revoke the title you gave them since you'll have a strong claim on it. If they give it to you, no big deal. If they refuse and rebel, you beat their new areas easily since they have no troops and then revoke both the county you gave them and their new claimed title. You can gain quite a few kingdom titles that way and are free to distribute them to worthier people.


Though to be honest, I'm in the same boat as you. I've managed to conquer the entirety of Europe and Africa, owning everything except India. And there are two large Indian kingdoms that stand in my way: I have very few options besides holy wars and eventually usurping the multiple kingdom titles they hold and pressing those claims until I have to resort to more holy wars. It's tiresome.

[Anxe]

I was doing the King title thing for awhile, but that strategy doesn't work against Empires unfortunately. The new Emperor/Empress takes the county you gifted them into the Empire that you got for them. I got a nice ally that way, but not more territory for me.

I guess I'll try supporting rebellions in foreign countries and sending my chancelor to Sow Disent. Might break the Empires up into Kingdoms that I can take faster.

And intermarriage is an option I've been trying for ages, but its so hard!

[Actana]

It's almost impossible to marry into a nation with a different religion. And it's a pain to convert a nation to a different one. There's one interesting exception though: if you can press a claim for the empire, try to force conversion upon the claimant first and then press the claim. You'll get a ruler of your religion onto the throne, and with any luck they might even last for a while, creating some nice religious friends into the nation.

[Flickerdart]

I was doing the King title thing for awhile, but that strategy doesn't work against Empires unfortunately. The new Emperor/Empress takes the county you gifted them into the Empire that you got for them. I got a nice ally that way, but not more territory for me.

The strategy doesn't work against any title that's equivalent to your own in rank. Pull individual kingdoms or break up the empire and then pull individual kingdoms.

The real bastard way of doing it is pushing a Strong claim for a woman or child, then turning around and stabbing them in the back by pushing a Weak claim from someone who's more suitable to rule (such as an existing vassal or ideally, an heir).

[Anxe]

It's almost impossible to marry into a nation with a different religion. And it's a pain to convert a nation to a different one. There's one interesting exception though: if you can press a claim for the empire, try to force conversion upon the claimant first and then press the claim. You'll get a ruler of your religion onto the throne, and with any luck they might even last for a while, creating some nice religious friends into the nation.

That's what I did with the Byzantine Empire. Now I've got my Catholic sister Empire. Hadn't thought of that for the marrying problem. Fortunately the Ilkhanate is Orthodox so there's some overlap. My past tries to convert leaders of other nations have gone poorly though (usually ends with my Chaplain's head on a pike).

So I might just have to live with the slow expansion is the general message? I'll stick with the attempt to break Kings off the Empires as best I can.