Erfworld 39 (Page 38)

[Luvlein]

Nobel price winners like Thomas Mann have even more sexual innuendo in their stories than there is in erfworld.

[SteveMB]

the whole girl-sex-innuendo-thing makes me feel caught in the fantasy of some teenage boy

Or that of a 24 1/2 year old guy who doesn't have much of a life other than creating game worlds, perhaps....

[Haruspex]

I'm wondering why she amnesia'd the guard though. Is it because of what she said during the conversation (the way she talked about Stanley), or is it because she wants to keep her badass rep? Because if she's known as a sadistic torturer, using charm spells and having pleasant chats might break that image.

[Calemyr]

If it turns out to be a romantic relationship between those two, I'll be severely disappointed. Everything in this world has been sanitized. You don't die, you are croaked. They aren't dragons and spiders, they're dwagons and spidews. Food and cleaning just happen, and war is "played" by the rules. Even the freaking undead have an aspect of cuteness to them. If, after establishing all this, they then throw in a relationship like the one you guys are contemplating... they might as well build a house of cards and then turn on a fan. It's stupid, and I'll lose a great deal of respect for this comic if it turns out to be the case.

[SteveMB]

I'm wondering why she amnesia'd the guard though. Is it because of what she said during the conversation (the way she talked about Stanley), or is it because she wants to keep her badass rep? Because if she's known as a sadistic torturer, using charm spells and having pleasant chats might break that image.

Probably all of the above, plus a desire to keep her relationship with Jillian (whatever it is) secret.

If it turns out to be a romantic relationship between those two, I'll be severely disappointed. Everything in this world has been sanitized. You don't die, you are croaked. They aren't dragons and spiders, they're dwagons and spidews. Food and cleaning just happen, and war is "played" by the rules. Even the freaking undead have an aspect of cuteness to them. If, after establishing all this, they then throw in a relationship like the one you guys are contemplating... they might as well build a house of cards and then turn on a fan. It's stupid, and I'll lose a great deal of respect for this comic if it turns out to be the case.

Hmmm... perhaps the innuendo is the "relationship", sanitized into this world's terms in an analogous manner....

[Silver]

I find it imaginative and original, but the whole girl-sex-innuendo-thing makes me feel caught in the fantasy of some teenage boy.

You're not alone.

The "sushi" thing was pretty much uncalled-for.

[Gitman00]

"Dripping with innuendo"... yes. That is exactly how I have viewed the strips with Wanda and Jillian. There are SO many clues that you need to be very determinedly blind to them not to see them. And honestly, this is my biggest problem with the strip. I find it imaginative and original, but the whole girl-sex-innuendo-thing makes me feel caught in the fantasy of some teenage boy. I don't like the idea of people who find torture arousing. I don't appreciate all the shots of scantily clad girls with big bosoms wielding whips or sporting wet wounds. I don't like the way this will make me feel next time I eat sushi.

Anyway. I think Erfworld has potential. I just hope the authors will stop catering to the imagination of understimulated teenage boys soon, and get on with the action.

I keep looking over the Jillian/Wanda comics, and innuendo is the most I get from them. The clues and hints are there, but everything is still left ambiguous enough so that we can't make a definite statement about it one way or another. As I've mentioned before, I think the authors just like to screw with us as far as that goes. I can just see Rob reading these forums with a huge grin on his face, a guffaw escaping every now and then. It's even possible the sushi remark was not meant as a double entendre by the authors (I doubt it, but it's possible). I'm almost certain Wanda didn't mean it that way. She handed her a plate of sushi, for crying out loud!

All we know, for sure, is the following:

1. Wanda has tortured Jillian before, and likes to wear white leather while doing it. Her character profile has fashion as one of her strengths, so that's not surprising.

2. Wanda and Jillian are on somewhat friendly terms when Wanda's not torturing Jillian. Whether this is a genuine relationship, or part of Wanda's psychological manipulation, we just can't say for certain.

For my part, I'm intrigued, but I'm going to withhold judgment until we get more information. I suspect they're going to string us along for a while longer. I still think the innuendo is too obvious for it to actually be a dom/sub sexual relationship. There's something else going on here, and Rob and Jamie are having way too much fun letting us speculate.

[Webwalker]

I keep looking over the Jillian/Wanda comics, and innuendo is the most I get from them. The clues and hints are there, but everything is still left ambiguous enough so that we can't make a definite statement about it one way or another. As I've mentioned before, I think the authors just like to screw with us as far as that goes. I can just see Rob reading these forums with a huge grin on his face, a guffaw escaping every now and then. It's even possible the sushi remark was not meant as a double entendre by the authors (I doubt it, but it's possible). I'm almost certain Wanda didn't mean it that way. She handed her a plate of sushi, for crying out loud!

All we know, for sure, is the following:

1. Wanda has tortured Jillian before, and likes to wear white leather while doing it. Her character profile has fashion as one of her strengths, so that's not surprising.

2. Wanda and Jillian are on somewhat friendly terms when Wanda's not torturing Jillian. Whether this is a genuine relationship, or part of Wanda's psychological manipulation, we just can't say for certain.

For my part, I'm intrigued, but I'm going to withhold judgment until we get more information. I suspect they're going to string us along for a while longer. I still think the innuendo is too obvious for it to actually be a dom/sub sexual relationship. There's something else going on here, and Rob and Jamie are having way too much fun letting us speculate.

Agreed. Right now, we're all sitting in a dark room. We hear wings flapping, we hear quacking, and we're thinking "Are we extras in an Aflac commecial?". Eventually, Rob and Jamie will turn on the light, and we'll see what's really there.

But it's damn hard right now not to think we're about to be pitched Life Insurance.

(and i missed that sushi remark the first time. totally and utterly missed the innuendo there. yeah, either they completely missed that as well and it was entirely innocent, or they're really, really, really enjoying messing with our heads.)

[happyturtle]

I find it imaginative and original, but the whole girl-sex-innuendo-thing makes me feel caught in the fantasy of some teenage boy.

I'm a middle aged married lady, and I find it fascinating.

[Luvlein]

So maybe I don't have to wallow in guilt because I like it?
Thank you, happyturtle.

[JonathanC]

Wanda believes herself to be evil?
Huh?

More like Wanda wants Mr. Twoll to believe she's evil.

I just can't wait for the reward. I'm thinking chocolate. Or an arkentool. Certainly not fanservice for the sikbois out there.

Now, it will be supa-cool if Wanda is sewiously ewil -- like if the reward is more beatings. Or showing Jillian the lung she removed. That would be arsome.

Haar

She removed a lung? When?

[chionophile]

She didn't actually remove a lung. That was a hypothetical, "Wanda would be really cool/evil if she had removed Jill's lung".

[JonathanC]

She didn't actually remove a lung. That was a hypothetical, "Wanda would be really cool/evil if she had removed Jill's lung".

Well, no. Not really. Especially if she's supposed to be torturing Jill, rather than just butchering her. Torture, ideally, doesn't kill you until after you've given up the info, if at all. And a person who tortures for their own entertainment usually wants to keep their toys around for a while. Lung removal is a fairly fatal practice.

Incidentally, the whole "soft spoken, friendly" torturer thing isn't exactly new. It's one of the general torturer archetypes, though to be fair, you don't see that many torturer protagonists.

[SteveMB]

Incidentally, the whole "soft spoken, friendly" torturer thing isn't exactly new. It's one of the general torturer archetypes, though to be fair, you don't see that many torturer protagonists.

It's a form of psychological pressure -- basically, a one-person version of the "good cop / bad cop" routine (in this case, torturing someone into giving up information, and then adopting a friendly attitude after the victim has complied).

Wanda sounds sympathetic and comforting in panel 6 ("Don't wallow in guilt, my dearest. You never had as much choice as it seemed."). However, her comments in panel 10 ("Don't attempt escape. You'll miss out on that reward you've earned.") would seem to contradict and undercut that -- reminding Jillian that she is to be rewarded for being "very good" and not having "held anything back" would surely make it more likely that she would "wallow in guilt". I suggested earlier in the thread that the panel 10 speech was simply Wanda speaking in her usual blunt manner-of-fact way, but it's also possible that panel 6 was meant sarcastically or manipulatively and panel 10 was a deliberate twist of the psychological knife. (I think the former interpretation is more interesting, but I can't definitively rule out the latter one.)

Another semi-random thought: If the healing at the dawn "reset" also removes all trace of physical pain, leaving only an abstract memory of how bad it was, it would be that much harder for Jillian to understand and forgive her own past self for cracking, if that makes any sense.

[JonathanC]

Agreed. I think that's exactly what happened; you can see sudden change in Jillian's demeanor once the dawn healing happens. Suddenly she feels uncomfortable. Wanda really is a terrible person.

But that's good. It's all too easy for writers to make featured "bad guys" a little too sympathetic, and it tends to take away from their aura of menace as villains.

[benthehater]

For my part, I missed the sushi remark subtext too. I'm not so sure it holds up though. I adore sushi, and when sushi is referenced, I can only think of how much I'd love some sushi. The conversation before the dawn healing/restoration sounded like sex and the city, a girl talking about the love life and the guy she's interested in with her girlfriend (not girlfriend, just girlfriend). The fact that the ration was something as trendy and hip as sushi, just kind of seems to fit.

[JonathanC]

You're not alone.

The "sushi" thing was pretty much uncalled-for.

I don't get it. What's the subtext of the sushi remark? She offered her some sushi. Unless you're really, really reaching...I don't see any subtext there.

[Webwalker]

I don't get it. What's the subtext of the sushi remark? She offered her some sushi. Unless you're really, really reaching...I don't see any subtext there.

It's a very crude subtext. Warning: Juvenile and likely offensive to most people.

Spoiler

Show

It's a crude joke (in North America, at least. Can't say the same for around the world) that a woman's vagina smells like fish. Ergo, "Good girls eat sushi", or "Good girls eat fish." can be inferred to mean "Good girls eat vagina".

It is reaching, quite a bit. Especially when there is literally sushi given to Jillian in the comic. I didn't even think of it until other posters pointed it out.

[Harr]

Of course it's reaching. It's reaching in the same way that every single of the 'smart' jokes in Erfworld is reaching.

The same way that "Jimmy Hoffa was a mob guy who was never found, while Dr. Livingston was an explorer who was found, so then you say Hoffa when you want the letter to disappear and Livingston when you want it to appear" is reaching.

The same way that Vinnie speaking with the same accent as Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinnie and the Eager Elf being physically similar to Link from the Legend of Zelda is reaching.

And a bunch of other ones. There are jokes like this scattered all over the comic, it's one of its high points, or low points, depending on your likes/ dislikes with regards to humor. The fact that it's reaching and that you have to think about it is what's funny about it.

So yeah, I can see where people might decide whether it does or doesn't apply to their own reading of the strip individually, but I don't think there can be any doubt at all that the sushi reference is what the author intended, at least for those readers who are In with his whole 'dry witty sophisticated humor' vibe.

As for myself, the fact that the joke was contained in one strip and paced in very well with the conversation, which was itself paced excellently, meant it had a good effect and made me chuckle, which is good. So thumbs up from me.

Later edit -> On the other hand, I can't for the life of me figure out that expression in panel 4. The more I look at it, the more I think that she's either in pain, trying not to laugh, holding back a tear, embarrassed, trying to solve a math problem in her head, or having an orgasm. Mostly she looks a bit like a duck. The thread explanations don't do much for me, either. Oh well.

[JonathanC]

It's a very crude subtext. Warning: Juvenile and likely offensive to most people.

Spoiler

Show

It's a crude joke (in North America, at least. Can't say the same for around the world) that a woman's vagina smells like fish. Ergo, "Good girls eat sushi", or "Good girls eat fish." can be inferred to mean "Good girls eat vagina".

It is reaching, quite a bit. Especially when there is literally sushi given to Jillian in the comic. I didn't even think of it until other posters pointed it out.

Like I said...that's reaching a bit far. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If we're going to reach that far, then what could they eat? Not beef, because there's another crude joke in there. Not sausages, for obvious reasons. No asparagus, no pasta with Alfredo sauce, no clam chowder (or clams at all), no milk, no yogurt, nothing with a red sauce...basically they could both eat gruel, and our guardians of vice and virtue here might be satisfied. But what kind of torturer eats gruel? That's for prisoners, and in this case the prisoner is supposed to be rewarded. Thus, she eats as her tormentor eats: sushi.

The actual subtext in the comic, like all good subtext, can be taken either way. It's quite possible, in fact more likely, that their friendliness has much more to do with Wanda's methods of psychological torture than any real romantic interest between the two; real interrogators report that the best methods for information extraction involve developing a positive repartee with the captive, rather than simply hurting them (since people will say anything to stop the torture).

[Silver]

So yeah, I can see where people might decide whether it does or doesn't apply to their own reading of the strip individually, but I don't think there can be any doubt at all that the sushi reference is what the author intended, at least for those readers who are In with his whole 'dry witty sophisticated humor' vibe.

Sooooo... the target audience for Erfworld is "people who think tuna jokes are sophisticated humor"?

I wasn't going to be *quite* that harsh, but if the shoe fits...

[SteveMB]

Later edit -> On the other hand, I can't for the life of me figure out that expression in panel 4. The more I look at it, the more I think that she's either in pain, trying not to laugh, holding back a tear, embarrassed, trying to solve a math problem in her head, or having an orgasm. Mostly she looks a bit like a duck. The thread explanations don't do much for me, either. Oh well.

The best explanation I can come up with is that it's the effect of suddenly no longer being in physical pain, while at the same time experiencing the mental pain of having her head abruptly clear (if Wanda's spell was indeed some sort of charm/suggestion) and realizing that she's given up all the information Wanda wanted. At least, that seems like the best explanation of her rather confused expression in panel 4 combined with her despondent whimpering in the next few panels.

[Josu]

I think experience points are awarded at the end of the turn. Jillian literally received the experience of the torture in this panel.

[ryos]

We hear wings flapping, we hear quacking, and we're thinking "Are we extras in an Aflac commecial?".

You sir win the prize. That has got to be my personal favorite quote of the day.

[SteveMB]

I think experience points are awarded at the end of the turn. Jillian literally received the experience of the torture in this panel.

That assumes that experience points are a relevant mechanic in the turn-based strategy rules that Erfworld runs under.

[kansas_dave]

If it turns out to be a romantic relationship between those two, I'll be severely disappointed. Everything in this world has been sanitized. You don't die, you are croaked. They aren't dragons and spiders, they're dwagons and spidews. Food and cleaning just happen, and war is "played" by the rules. Even the freaking undead have an aspect of cuteness to them. If, after establishing all this, they then throw in a relationship like the one you guys are contemplating... they might as well build a house of cards and then turn on a fan. It's stupid, and I'll lose a great deal of respect for this comic if it turns out to be the case.

Jillian wouldn't be captured so often if she were trying to avoid it.

I hope just the opposite. I'm glad the artist isn't hidebound into slavishly following genre conventions.

[Estelindis]

I found this comic intriguing - I'm wondering even more about the relationship between Jillian and Wanda now. Sure, it answered some questions, but it left others wide open. Of all the possible reasons that Jill might be upset after her wound seem to go away, which one is true? Is she even upset, or is she weeping in order to vent a different raw emotion? The facial expression of panel four is quite ambiguous - although it looks to me like the classic "crumpled" face of someone breaking down, just about to cry.

[Konig]

I see two possibilities:

• There is innuendo, hints of friendship, a shared childhood or romance.
  This is supported by 'let's run away together' by Jillian.
  Maybe that's why Jillian keeps being reckless & getting captured? She just wants to be with Wanda?
  Wanda sure did seem eager in page 24 when she heard Jillian was captured. Could just be sadism.
  
  .
• The shared 'friendship' was actually a result of a spell.
  This is supported by the apparent agony that Jillian feels as the day ends and the spell (theoretically) wears off, and the sparkles around Jillian's head in page 36.

[SteveMB]

I found this comic intriguing - I'm wondering even more about the relationship between Jillian and Wanda now. Sure, it answered some questions, but it left others wide open. Of all the possible reasons that Jill might be upset after her wound seem to go away, which one is true? Is she even upset, or is she weeping in order to vent a different raw emotion? The facial expression of panel four is quite ambiguous - although it looks to me like the classic "crumpled" face of someone breaking down, just about to cry.

Judging by panels 5 & 8, she has clearly (at the least) broken down into a crying jag.

I see two possibilities:

• There is innuendo, hints of friendship, a shared childhood or romance.
  This is supported by 'let's run away together' by Jillian.
  Maybe that's why Jillian keeps being reckless & getting captured? She just wants to be with Wanda?
  Wanda sure did seem eager in page 24 when she heard Jillian was captured. Could just be sadism.
  
  .
• The shared 'friendship' was actually a result of a spell.
  This is supported by the apparent agony that Jillian feels as the day ends and the spell (theoretically) wears off, and the sparkles around Jillian's head in page 36.I

My read is that:

1. Jillian's willingness to have a nice friendly chat with Wanda after Wanda has spent the night whipping her bloody is induced by Wanda's spell.

2. Jillian extended some friendship toward Wanda (the suggestion that they both escape) before the spell was cast. While it's possible that it was a cynical maneuver to save herself, I don't interpret it that way -- if it were, I think it would have been preceded by a clearer attempt to "sell" the idea (i.e. "your side is doomed and I'm offering you a chance to save yourself").

3. Wanda has offered some friendly/comforting comments, but it's unclear if there's anything behind them other than a skilled interrogator's craft in working (as opposed to working over) a prisoner.

What all this means? Beats me (pardon the expression in this context).

[Konig]

Judging by panels 5 & 8, she has clearly (at the least) broken down into a crying jag.

My read is that:

1. Jillian's willingness to have a nice friendly chat with Wanda after Wanda has spent the night whipping her bloody is induced by Wanda's spell.

2. Jillian extended some friendship toward Wanda (the suggestion that they both escape) before the spell was cast. While it's possible that it was a cynical maneuver to save herself, I don't interpret it that way -- if it were, I think it would have been preceded by a clearer attempt to "sell" the idea (i.e. "your side is doomed and I'm offering you a chance to save yourself").

3. Wanda has offered some friendly/comforting comments, but it's unclear if there's anything behind them other than a skilled interrogator's craft in working (as opposed to working over) a prisoner.

What all this means? Beats me (pardon the expression in this context).

I like the interpretations.

Personally, I'd like to imagine it's a mix of enmity and friendship. I could totally understand if they were, say, childhood friends (That's the most likely G-rated storyline IMHO) or harboring some romantic attraction (PG to R rating) - and if they just couldn't reconcile their feelings of friendship/romance with being on opposite sides of the battlefield.

I think there's a real unconscious reason why Jillian lets herself get captured time and again, which would underscore the point, here.