Erfworld 39 (Page 38)

[Kromag]

When did Wanda get a chance to change her clothes? She's no longer wearing the all-white torture outfit she was last night.

Good point, yet more support for a 'relationship.' I'm actually surprised to find that while I was very much anticipating the Jillian/Wanda conflict when it was beginning...I'm more than ready to move on with Parsons story. Too much teasing and not enough revealing in this story line.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm not so sure about the relationship. The glow on the dust Wanda threw in the demon's eyes is the same color as the glow of a spell scroll she was using when she started torturing Jillian. It could be that they're camaraderie is nothing more than the result of a Charm Person spell. Perhaps the, um, "relationship" is actually part of the torture? Interesting thought....

[Lairek]

tbh, I think the spell that Wanda cast at the start was some sort of sensory enhancer, very common in torture/interogation.

As for the sudden pain, it could be that the instant "start-of-turn" heal factor is quite painfull. In a Wheel of timeish sorta way.

[Mewtroid]

I have ONE thing, and one thing only to say.


Amnesia dust to the face.

[SteveMB]

Speculation:

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If Wanda is expecting the spell on Mung to last beyond the next daily reset then maybe she's used one just like it on Jillian every single time, to make her forget exactly the parts that Mung will remember. In that case it could be that each time she's captured, Jillian expects to be interrogated by a friend; and each time, her fragile trust is betrayed, deepening the subconscious psychological wounds that make her hold back from forming the emotional attachments that she also wants (like when her indecision at Ansom's tent ultimately fell on the side of remaining a literal outsider).

Hmmm... now that is an interesting theory. It does raise a few questions:

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If Jillian remembers only relatively gentle treatment, how does she make sense of that? If she gave up any information in previous sessions, does she remember doing so, and if so how does she explain it to herself? If not (she didn't give up anything or doesn't remember doing so, either way), doesn't it seem at all odd to her that her captors didn't try harder?

I'm not so sure about the relationship. The glow on the dust Wanda threw in the demon's eyes is the same color as the glow of a spell scroll she was using when she started torturing Jillian. It could be that they're camaraderie is nothing more than the result of a Charm Person spell. Perhaps the, um, "relationship" is actually part of the torture? Interesting thought....

The spell might explain why Jillian was willing to engage in a friendly chat immediately after the torture session. However, that still leave the fact that she suggested that they both escape from (what she assumed to be) the impending doom of Wanda's side before the spell.

(I noted on the page 36 thread that she asked "How are you getting along?" after specifically being invited to "speak freely". However, if the spell was some sort of mental charm, its influence might still have prevented her from taking an attitude other than friendly to Wanda, permission to "speak freely" notwithstanding.)

[belboz]

I'm not so sure about the relationship. The glow on the dust Wanda threw in the demon's eyes is the same color as the glow of a spell scroll she was using when she started torturing Jillian. It could be that they're camaraderie is nothing more than the result of a Charm Person spell. Perhaps the, um, "relationship" is actually part of the torture? Interesting thought....

Or even, well...The whole scene struck me as a bit of "good copping" in a good cop/bad cop scenario, which, IIUC, a good torturer can often combine in one person. Jillian was a good little girl, and told Wanda what she was supposed to, and now Wanda's being nice to her, commiserating about the pain and guilt, and so on. A much more effective interrogation technique than being cruel to the prisoner *whatever* they do. I mean, why would they tell you stuff once it becomes clear that doing so won't help their situation?

This is how Stockholm Syndrome happens, no?

[jmsl]

*sighs* The willingness of people to overlook the obvious would be funny most of the time.

I see absolutely no reason to doubt there's a sexual D/s relationship. While there could be an alternate explanation, none would fit anywhere near as well. And yes, they do care about each other, which fits with Jillian asking Wanda to run away with her, the time here, and bits elsewhere.

As for the pain, you can see the wounds Jillian has in the 2nd panel, then are promptly at dawning. The guilt, it sounds like it refers to Jillian's royal past, although that is less certain. The spell Wanda cast on Jillian almost certainly wore off before they had the pleasant chat in the previous scene.

Wanda is clearly hiding her close relationship from everyone else; while she is extracting information, that's unlikely to be her primary reason for her actions. I think we're still unclear of Wanda's overall motivation, whether she's trying to help Stanley win, or she's trying to find a way out of servitude to him, or what. She seems like a halfway decent sort, but not too nice. She doesn't go out of her way to warn Bogroll when he's being set up, but she does assign him to Parson. Perhaps she's just careful where she acts, or maybe she's undermining Parson (so far I doubt that) by assigning him Bogroll.

I don't want to go into details, but I've been in D/s relationships (minus the whipping, thankfully). I could be reading too much into the story, but it's incredibly unlikely, and I'm still a little uncomfortable reading about it in such an otherwise "cute" comic. The memories it brings up are intense. :-)

[Helgraf]

I have ONE thing, and one thing only to say.


Amnesia dust to the face.

Because it's made with gunpowder!

[Hart av Srednak]

*sighs* The willingness of people to overlook the obvious would be funny most of the time.

I see absolutely no reason to doubt there's a sexual D/s relationship. While there could be an alternate explanation, none would fit anywhere near as well. And yes, they do care about each other, which fits with Jillian asking Wanda to run away with her, the time here, and bits elsewhere.

As for the pain, you can see the wounds Jillian has in the 2nd panel, then are promptly at dawning. The guilt, it sounds like it refers to Jillian's royal past, although that is less certain. The spell Wanda cast on Jillian almost certainly wore off before they had the pleasant chat in the previous scene.

Wanda is clearly hiding her close relationship from everyone else; while she is extracting information, that's unlikely to be her primary reason for her actions. I think we're still unclear of Wanda's overall motivation, whether she's trying to help Stanley win, or she's trying to find a way out of servitude to him, or what. She seems like a halfway decent sort, but not too nice. She doesn't go out of her way to warn Bogroll when he's being set up, but she does assign him to Parson. Perhaps she's just careful where she acts, or maybe she's undermining Parson (so far I doubt that) by assigning him Bogroll.

I don't want to go into details, but I've been in D/s relationships (minus the whipping, thankfully). I could be reading too much into the story, but it's incredibly unlikely, and I'm still a little uncomfortable reading about it in such an otherwise "cute" comic. The memories it brings up are intense. :-)

I'm thinking in same lines though I now that cannot be proved now (so there's no point in arguing).

[Pepz]

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the last of the royal house deposed by Stanley?

I was thinking that as well :)

And I really love the way this is going :) but I mostly can't wait till I actually understand what the heck is happening :D
It's clear that Wanda isn't what she seems :) and it's clear that our lovely tool thinks she loves torturing, while she actually just enjoys seeing Jill again (sexual or friendly, either way :P )

Keep on rocking :D

[SteveMB]

As for the pain, you can see the wounds Jillian has in the 2nd panel, then are promptly at dawning. The guilt, it sounds like it refers to Jillian's royal past, although that is less certain.

How so? Wanda's comment that "In some ways, your wounds have healed. In other ways, you're only just feeling them now." clearly suggests that Jillian's reaction is a mental aftereffect of the torture session.

The spell Wanda cast on Jillian almost certainly wore off before they had the pleasant chat in the previous scene.

If you look closely at the "pleasant chat" scene, you'll see a few sparkles around Jillian's head (indicating that the spell is still active). The nature of the spell hasn't been specified, though the fact that the sparkles when it was originally cast are the same color as the sparkles of the spell she used on Mung on the way out would seem to suggest that it's some sort of mental compulsion.

[Pepz]

couldn't the "in some ways"-line be about the fact that she can talk about it (like she does in the beginning) but just now she's really starting to feel the pain (being close to the killer of her father possibly?)

[Luvlein]

And it's going to be even harder now to quiet the "Lovers" contingent. Wanda seems to be so concerned over Jillian, over "my dearest"... that's awfully loverish.

While I am a fervent advocate of the BDSM theory, I think that application of "my dearest" is dripping with sarcasm.

[Thimble]

So... the only person that Wanda can unwind with is someone that she's just spent the night beating bloody, possibly under a mental compulsion, and she guards that privacy by erasing all memory of it from an outside witness (in a form of magic that she dislikes, incidentally).

No wonder she has headaches.

Bets that Jillian escapes sometime during the day? I'm betting yes - it keeps the plot moving faster.

[jmsl]

How so? Wanda's comment that "In some ways, your wounds have healed. In other ways, you're only just feeling them now." clearly suggests that Jillian's reaction is a mental aftereffect of the torture session.

If you look closely at the "pleasant chat" scene, you'll see a few sparkles around Jillian's head (indicating that the spell is still active). The nature of the spell hasn't been specified, though the fact that the sparkles when it was originally cast are the same color as the sparkles of the spell she used on Mung on the way out would seem to suggest that it's some sort of mental compulsion.

I concur on the wounds aftereffects, although there may be more to it than that. I was only referring to the guilt and lack of choice comment.

As for the 2nd, good catch. I didn't notice the sparkles in the last few panels until I zoomed in. That does complicate interpretation somewhat, although given Jillian's behavior before any spell was cast, it doesn't significantly change things for me.

I also found it interesting in the current page that Jillian has a chain still around her ankle. I'm sure that's to keep her from escaping, but it could also provide some mild support for a hypothesis that Jillian's under some form of long-term compulsion to keep coming back, rather than truly choosing to be captured. That's supported by one interpretation of Wanda's "guilt" comments. Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait to do more than speculate wildly.

[Scientivore]

If you look closely at the "pleasant chat" scene, you'll see a few sparkles around Jillian's head (indicating that the spell is still active). The nature of the spell hasn't been specified, though the fact that the sparkles when it was originally cast are the same color as the sparkles of the spell she used on Mung on the way out would seem to suggest that it's some sort of mental compulsion.

I believe that yellow is the color of Eyemancy and that Wanda used either Thinkamancy or Foolamancy (if Thinkamancy is read-only) to make Mung suggestible. So, to me, the color of the sparklies doesn't contradict the possibility that Wanda cast a mind-reading spell from Thinkamancy on Jillian. I'm leaning toward thinking that it was a suggestion spell for other reasons.

[happyturtle]

I think she's using 'Dearest' affectionately, rather than loverly or sarcastically. She's moved from the persona of Mistress to one of Guardian or Caretaker.

Jmsl, I like your suggestion that Jillian is under a magic compulsion to keep getting captured. That makes a lot of sense, especially with 'You never had as much choice as it seemed'. So what does she remember when she's away from Wanda? She seems to remember that they are on friendly terms, based on her comments before Wanda got started. And based on her normally choosing 'the hard way', perhaps she thinks she can hold out against whatever Wanda does, and doesn't remember that Wanda can get into her head magically.

1. Why is Stanley's side losing so badly, if Wanda's had the advantage of being able to successfully interrogate Jillian on several past occasions? You'd think that would enable them to win at least one battle. Is the warlord problem that bad? Has there never been a good looking warlord with a shred of competence?

2. How hard will it be for Jillian to convince Mung to open the cell door? She's not naturally the manipulative type, but I think he'd be an easy mark. Bogroll, though naturally more gullible, is also too obedient to go against orders, no matter what anyone said. But Mung is just clever enough to make his own decisions.

[SteveMB]

I think she's using 'Dearest' affectionately, rather than loverly or sarcastically. She's moved from the persona of Mistress to one of Guardian or Caretaker.

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but it does seem to fit her attitude at this point.

Jmsl, I like your suggestion that Jillian is under a magic compulsion to keep getting captured. That makes a lot of sense, especially with 'You never had as much choice as it seemed'. So what does she remember when she's away from Wanda? She seems to remember that they are on friendly terms, based on her comments before Wanda got started. And based on her normally choosing 'the hard way', perhaps she thinks she can hold out against whatever Wanda does, and doesn't remember that Wanda can get into her head magically.

The theory that Wanda uses a spell like the one she used on Mung to make Jillian forget parts of the interrogation sessions implies that she never actually escaped without Wanda planning, or at least expecting, it in advance (though Wanda may have made it seem that way to her, either by a mundane "setup" or by additional manipulation of her memories).

For that matter, it's possible that she can openly (to everyone except Jillian herself) make the arrangements, if she was able to convince Stanley that it was a good idea to let Jillian "escape", learn more information from Ansom's side, and get captured again. (If so, have the losses of dwagons to Jillian's blade in between captures started to change Stanley's mind on this point? They are "his greatest remaining threat", after all...).

Your suggestion that she doesn't remember giving up anything avoids a fairly glaring inconsistency Jillian might notice (why did I talk so easily?), but leaves a more subtle one (why didn't they try harder to make me talk?)

(Also, it occurs to me that the spell duration issue might not really apply -- a spell can have lasting effects even if the spell itself has a limited duration. For instance, I don't think we've seen any direct-damage spells, but if they exist then someone croaked by them presumably wouldn't return to life just because the spell expired. Similarly, someone ordered to forget wouldn't necessarily remember again simply because the mental compulsion spell expired.)

1. Why is Stanley's side losing so badly, if Wanda's had the advantage of being able to successfully interrogate Jillian on several past occasions? You'd think that would enable them to win at least one battle. Is the warlord problem that bad? Has there never been a good looking warlord with a shred of competence?

I think it's a matter of the top leadership problem being that bad.

2. How hard will it be for Jillian to convince Mung to open the cell door? She's not naturally the manipulative type, but I think he'd be an easy mark. Bogroll, though naturally more gullible, is also too obedient to go against orders, no matter what anyone said. But Mung is just clever enough to make his own decisions.

Unknown. If she pulls that off, and the theory that her memories have been tampered with is correct, this would be her first genuine escape.

[the_tick_rules]

hmm erfworld can be difficult to interpet. i assumed the you never had as much choice meant that with ansom being apparently so single minded her range of options under his command was limited.

[Vatharian]

I think, that Wanda's work on intel didn't make any difference, because Stanley didn't make any effort to actually conclude something useful. Loosing these battles by Tool really, really makes me wonder. To add three cents to magic Wanda used on Jillan I support the theory, that 'thinkamancy' (lol, read only! You're on the best way to count down actual stats for spells, you know? ;) )made Jillan more open to answering the questions, but still, it makes no sense that Wanda beated her more. That shirt intrigues me somewhat, but until something more gets uncovered, I'd assume, that Wanda just changed her shirt because it's new d... ugh, turn is coming. And she erased Mung's memory just because she doesn't like anyone looking on her hands while she works. Assuming that someone so badass, dark and complicated doesn't have her own secrets, hiding something even from Tool just isn't right.
As I stated before, I don't think that Wanda let Jillan escape earlier. It's normal during war, that winners free captives. At least on Earth.

This comic cuts any they-are-related discussion, because Wanda would at least know that Jillan is noble. Of course there is probabilty, that Wanda actually IS related to Stan's, well, 'predecessors', if you get my drift. That's for turning everything upside-down :P

On the sidenote: Did anyone notice the 'Earth -> Erf-world" ? Ot it's only my imagination? ^_^b

[Scientivore]

On the sidenote: Did anyone notice the 'Earth -> Erf-world" ? Ot it's only my imagination? ^_^b

Oh, it's been mentioned once or twice. The "Pun translations" thread has all of the wordplay and much more.

[stealth_pirate]

it has yet to get good for me... strange that...

[benthehater]

The relationship has transcended from "complicated" to "loaded". I think it's fair to say that it cannot be simply explained as a friends' relationship, a lovers' relationship, a bdsm relationship, or a stockholm syndrome relationship, or any simple terminology. (though I think we can finally dispose of "sisters") It's a relationship complicated by the nature of the characters (which is still very mysterious), the fact that they are on opposite sides of forces, and the power dynamic, and every other suggestive piece of information we've been shown.

I think that Wanda might have actually conditioned Jillian to engage recklessly until capture, and that Jillian doesn't realize she's doing it when she's doing it.

A very important part of that scene was the guilt remarks Wanda made at Jillians recovery, and I think I have an idea of how that works.

Wanda broke Jillian through torture. The erotically charged part of the torture may or may not have been used exclusively to make the torture more effective in breaking Jillian. At the end of the torture session, Jillian tells Wanda everything on command, and they talk like close friends chatting over coffee at starbucks. Or more accurately, sushi in L.A. I guess. (never been to L.A.) At the end of turn, the "effect" of being broken ended, and Jillian's wounds and conditioned/broken state vanished, and now Jillian is very aware of what happened to her from an objective memory viewpoint, realizing precisely when she was broken, reliving the moment when she probably sold out her side.

Wanda, for her part, in spite of being evil in the eyes of Mung, says some comforting things at that point (or at least as much as Wanda is capable of comforting anyone). She knows what Jillian is experiencing, and tries to tell her that it's not Jillians fault for breaking, since she "never had as much choice as it seemed".

So, yeah. How Wanda and Jillian really feel is still completely impossible to know. Wanda is basically impenetrable, but I think it is worth noting that she's basically been nicer to Jillian than she's been to anybody, what with endearing remarks, sushi, etc. It might be as nice as Wanda is capable of.

I really like what it told us about Ansom though. The conversation with Vinnie Doombats is actually a relationship conversation, though the boys don't know it. It appears to be about Stanley, but part of it is about Jillian. Ansom is Royal, and likes Jillian, who as far as Ansom knows, is not Royal. What does Ansom want from the relationship? If Jillian isn't Royal, as far as Ansom knows, they can't really ever get married or anything like that. Would Ansom want that anyway from Jillian? Would Ansom want that if he knew the truth about Jillian's royalty? Would Jillian even want to get married ever? To someone like Ansom? I can't help but feel that Ansom is unfortunately someone who doesn't quite "get it". He might operate on a kind of "black and white" point of view, and fail to really appreciate just how not simple a relationship is with Jillian. I think Jillian genuinely does like him, and is actually interested in him, but because of the loaded complicated relationship issues (warlord, royal, not royal, royal pretending not to be, working relationship, at war, in combat, one party must manage the other, potentially strange love triangle, vague sexual orientation, torture/conditioning/mind control, captured how many times now, The Arkendildo, Golem Fetishism, Ansom's ex-girlfriends, a really really fat beligerant hamster, my loss of sanity) she isn't acting on those feelings.

And to Ansom, I think it might be like this.
"I tried to initiate the relationship with her."
"She didn't seem to want to."
"I can't figure out why she doesn't like me."

[Jacklu]

It looks to me like Wanda used some kind of spell on Jillian to make her easily give up any information she had. It would be presumed that the spell ended at dawn and Jillian could suddenly remember what she had done. At least that's what it looks like to me.

[SteveMB]

At the end of turn, the "effect" of being broken ended, and Jillian's wounds and conditioned/broken state vanished, and now Jillian is very aware of what happened to her from an objective memory viewpoint, realizing precisely when she was broken, reliving the moment when she probably sold out her side.

Wanda, for her part, in spite of being evil in the eyes of Mung, says some comforting things at that point (or at least as much as Wanda is capable of comforting anyone). She knows what Jillian is experiencing, and tries to tell her that it's not Jillians fault for breaking, since she "never had as much choice as it seemed".

So, yeah. How Wanda and Jillian really feel is still completely impossible to know. Wanda is basically impenetrable, but I think it is worth noting that she's basically been nicer to Jillian than she's been to anybody, what with endearing remarks, sushi, etc. It might be as nice as Wanda is capable of.

If that interpretation is correct, Wanda's comment "Don't attempt escape. You'll miss out on that reward you've earned." (emphasis added) is actually a pretty cold remark that would aggravate Jillian's guilt over being broken (though it's ambiguous as to whether Wanda deliberately meant it that way or even understands that it might be taken that way).

I really like what it told us about Ansom though. The conversation with Vinnie Doombats is actually a relationship conversation, though the boys don't know it. It appears to be about Stanley, but part of it is about Jillian. Ansom is Royal, and likes Jillian, who as far as Ansom knows, is not Royal. What does Ansom want from the relationship? If Jillian isn't Royal, as far as Ansom knows, they can't really ever get married or anything like that.

That doesn't necessarily follow, depending on how the rules for such things work in Erfworld (e.g. if marriage simply elevates the lower-ranking spouse to the level of the higher-ranking one in the nobility, it wouldn't necessarily be any problem at all).

And to Ansom, I think it might be like this.
"I tried to initiate the relationship with her."
"She didn't seem to want to."
"I can't figure out why she doesn't like me."

That's the most straightforward interpretation of what we've seen of their relationship, I think.

[djharr]

Of course, there is the really dirty minded interpretation of the last bit...the eating of the sushi is a "foreshadowing" of the reward she is going to get that night..."Good girls get to eat sushi" is just DRIPPING with innuendo and double entendre...and since this is a family forum, if I say any more, I undoubtedly will get banned....

[nooblade]

Hrmm.

I think its important to take the information from the cast page into account.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erfcast.html

Wanda is a methodical and intelligent emotionless caster. Jillian is a barbarian, whose weakness is "knowing what she wants". I think that implies being suggestionable.

Here's my thoughts on this:

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It's like there's two Erfworld worlds. One has the game and one has the personas of the characters. Wanda knows that Jillian's personality has the potential to influence her ability in the game world, maybe it already has with her being careless with the dragons. My guess is that she is baiting her for more of the magical items that she drops when she is captured. Wanda doesn't even need to bother with magic or the dust with Jillian, but it might also be advantageous to avoid because enemy casters would detect something wrong.

There is another complicated problem with her not wanting the guard to know and treating Jillian as a friend. I think Wanda's personality is not only introverted, but somewhat twisted, so she doesn't want anyone to find out and investigate. That doesn't make her necessarily evil, though, just really, really dark. Like most necromancers. If they were "friends", then why would Wanda mecilessly torture her? My idea is plausible because Jillian, as a barbarian, can cope with the pain and needs to feel Wanda's approval more importantly than make pointless objections to torture.

And then my conspiracies become even more twisted with this notion:

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Parson could come along and realize that Jillian would be more valuable commanding for them. That would give the Godwin Knobbers an important edge in the battle to come. But there is that group of Jetstone sent to find Jillian that could cause some trouble. I still have a gut feeling that Jillian is only going to resolver her personal problems among the rest of the Godwin Knob group. Not that the theories of romance with Ansom aren't interesting, it's just that she's not likely to share feelings and things with Vinnie and Ansom anytime soon. Parson is the main character after all. He has to meet Jillian sometime.

But intense torture does seem a little out of place in a world like Erfworld.

[Scientivore]

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It's like there's two Erfworld worlds. One has the game and one has the personas of the characters.

Yes.

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From reading many of the comments beneath the strips of PartiallyClips I found out that Rob learned the concept of "playing the metagame" from Steve Jackson himself because of making the Sluggy Freelance game Get Nifty!. Reading the metacomic here (so to speak), I'd say that it's a given that Parson will think in those terms, and quite possible that special Erfworlders such as Wanda will do likewise.

[Gez]

And she erased Mung's memory just because she doesn't like anyone looking on her hands while she works.

And also because she may want to hide the special nature of the relationship they have (not just torture and interrogation, based on all the innuendo starting from the strip where she changed clothing to this one).

And also because she let out Jillian's secret (she's a Royal) and if that secret is to stay a secret, eavesdropping trolls like Mung shouldn't be let in the confidence.

The Arkendildo

It may very well exist, after all the titans are Elvises. Good thing the chance of it being actually shown in the strip is infinitesimally slim.

[Caleniel]

Of course, there is the really dirty minded interpretation of the last bit...the eating of the sushi is a "foreshadowing" of the reward she is going to get that night..."Good girls get to eat sushi" is just DRIPPING with innuendo and double entendre...and since this is a family forum, if I say any more, I undoubtedly will get banned....

"Dripping with innuendo"... yes. That is exactly how I have viewed the strips with Wanda and Jillian. There are SO many clues that you need to be very determinedly blind to them not to see them. And honestly, this is my biggest problem with the strip. I find it imaginative and original, but the whole girl-sex-innuendo-thing makes me feel caught in the fantasy of some teenage boy. I don't like the idea of people who find torture arousing. I don't appreciate all the shots of scantily clad girls with big bosoms wielding whips or sporting wet wounds. I don't like the way this will make me feel next time I eat sushi.

Anyway. I think Erfworld has potential. I just hope the authors will stop catering to the imagination of understimulated teenage boys soon, and get on with the action.