Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[unbeliever536]

Captain Axe has an axe for a hand.

We don't track him...

Maybe you meant to post here?

[EmperorSarda]

So I have a question, in 1002 we see that Roy does 3 attacks in panel 2, and another attack in panel 3. This is in between spells cast.

Is this evidence for 4 attacks in a round, and that Roy is 16th level?

So no one has really answered me on this. Am I reading the attacks wrong?

[Kornaki]

The fourth attack might have been an attack of opportunity when Durkon casts his next spell. A bit of a stretch, but Durkon is within melee reach and he could have simply blown his concentration check to cast defensively. I have no explanation for why he didn't spellsplinter, but that's the case even if he did make four attacks anyway.

[zoofroot]

The fourth attack might have been an attack of opportunity when Durkon casts his next spell. A bit of a stretch, but Durkon is within melee reach and he could have simply blown his concentration check to cast defensively. I have no explanation for why he didn't spellsplinter, but that's the case even if he did make four attacks anyway.

When you fail your concentration check to cast defensively, you lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity. If Durkon opted not to cast defensively, he may have provoked, but that seems unlikely.

[Pyrous]

When you fail your concentration check to cast defensively, you lose the spell, but you don't provoke an attack of opportunity. If Durkon opted not to cast defensively, he may have provoked, but that seems unlikely.

Or the Spellsplinter Maneuver allows one to make an AoO against a defensive casting foe.

[EmperorSarda]

The fourth attack might have been an attack of opportunity when Durkon casts his next spell.

But if that were the case wouldn't it have been like the Harm that Roy tried and failed to disrupt? Attacks of opportunity do not happen before the other's action, they happen during it.

[Pyrous]

But if that were the case wouldn't it have been like the Harm that Roy tried and failed to disrupt? Attacks of opportunity do not happen before the other's action, they happen during it.

Yeah, but a AoO that is provoked by casting happens during the casting, if the attack hits, the caster has to make a concentration check and on failure the caster loses the spell. The Harm that Roy failed to disrupt is Durkula succeding on the concentration check. In fact, I think that Roy's attack on Durkula while he was casting Harm was a readied action to attack when Durkula deactivates his gaseous form, netheir a AoO nor Spellsplinter.

[Emanick]

I think any suggestion that Roy is level 16 is slightly far-fetched. Just a couple dozen strips ago, he was complaining that "I just barely caught up to where I was when I died."

[EmperorSarda]

I think any suggestion that Roy is level 16 is slightly far-fetched. Just a couple dozen strips ago, he was complaining that "I just barely caught up to where I was when I died."

Then how is Roy's 4th attack in 1002 explained then? He isn't reacting to any spell cast, so no AoE or Spell Splinter.

[Quild]

Then how is Roy's 4th attack in 1002 explained then? He isn't reacting to any spell cast, so no AoE or Spell Splinter.

At the beginning of the fight, HPoH is trying to keep his distance. It may be an attack of opportunity because HPoH backed of. Roy seems at a bigger distance.

Or something happened off-panel.


BTW I hadn't noticed until then that Roy DID use the Spellsplinter Maneuver against the Harm Spell. It looks like his attack was making a "S" form. Horizontally.

[Steven]

For some light amusement: Anyone know what catrip V is talking about? Or is it likely to just be V's Bug Blocking Cantrip?

[unbeliever536]

For some light amusement: Anyone know what catrip V is talking about? Or is it likely to just be V's Bug Blocking Cantrip?

It's probably just V's Convenient Bug Blocker, but Prestidigitation is also a good bet for "Minor Convenient Whatever", which is essentially what this is.

[EmperorSarda]

It's probably just V's Convenient Bug Blocker, but Prestidigitation is also a good bet for "Minor Convenient Whatever", which is essentially what this is.

If V can use Prestidigitation to clean Owlbear goop off him, he can use it to clean his teeth.

[Aeliren]

"Horace Greenhilt's Mage Slayer" should probably be renamed "Spellsplinter Maneuver", since that's its name.

[Reboot]

If V can use Prestidigitation to clean Owlbear goop off him, he can use it to clean his teeth.

But that doesn't stop it in the first place! Basically, we're looking for a long-duration (hours/level) 0th level spell that keeps small, light objects like flies - albeit travelling at noticable relative speed - out of one's face.

I'm going with "V's Bug Blocker".

[zimmerwald1915]

But that doesn't stop it in the first place! Basically, we're looking for a long-duration (hours/level) 0th level spell that keeps small, light objects like flies - albeit travelling at noticable relative speed - out of one's face.

I'm going with "V's Bug Blocker".

That'd be a cantrip with power greater than a 4th-level spell. Seems dubious to me.

Besides, neither V nor Bandana ever said "block," "prevent," "shield," or anything of the kind. Bandana asked V what she "did about" bugs in her teeth. Cleaning them after the fact is a perfectly legitimate answer, even if it's not meaningfully different from the crew's more mundane solution. Magic might be more thorough.

[Seto]

Or the Spellsplinter Maneuver allows one to make an AoO against a defensive casting foe.

The way I interpret it is : Spellsplinter Maneuver allows an AoO against a spellcaster who's casting defensively, and makes their spell fizzle automatically.
Knowing that, Durkula chose to cast Harm without using defensive casting, and provoked, in order to avoid the Spellsplinter maneuver. He then succeeded on his Concentration check.

[Steven]

That'd be a cantrip with power greater than a 4th-level spell. Seems dubious to me.

Only if you think that stopping the occasional small insect hitting a small part of your face is more powerful than preventing any vermin getting close to you and doing damage to ones big and bad enough to try.

By that logic a scarf is more powerful than a 4th level spell.

[Emanick]

That'd be a cantrip with power greater than a 4th-level spell. Seems dubious to me.

Besides, neither V nor Bandana ever said "block," "prevent," "shield," or anything of the kind. Bandana asked V what she "did about" bugs in her teeth. Cleaning them after the fact is a perfectly legitimate answer, even if it's not meaningfully different from the crew's more mundane solution. Magic might be more thorough.

If it specifically only targeted Fine vermin with 1/4 HD, and only protected the face, it could probably be a cantrip. Such a spell would have no combat utility whatsoever.

[Kurald Galain]

"Horace Greenhilt's Mage Slayer" should probably be changed to "Spellsplinter Maneuver", since that seems to be its name.

Done. Also, Belkar has imp sunder listed again.

Several smilies in the top posts are down; does anyone have a backup of e.g. Jacinda and Laurin?

[Douglas]

If you're updating the feat's name (finally), you should also update its reference to be where the name is revealed.

[dsollen]

Okay, I apologize if this is an obviously idiotic comment, seems like someone would have noticed and fixed it by now unless there is something I'm missing.

However, the first page of this thread lists Roy's level as 14 while linking to the forum discussion that declares roy just leveled to 15 based off of Xp earned. This is well after the whole resurrection thing so I don't think he lost any levels after. Shouldn't he be listed as 15 by now?

Incidentally, if Roy wins the current fight I don't suppose that would be enough to put him into 16 would it? I doubt it, he was barely 15, but Durkon was already a level above him and gained a template worth 2 HD, so maybe the xp will be substantial enough to make a difference.

[unbeliever536]

Okay, I apologize if this is an obviously idiotic comment, seems like someone would have noticed and fixed it by now unless there is something I'm missing.

However, the first page of this thread lists Roy's level as 14 while linking to the forum discussion that declares roy just leveled to 15 based off of Xp earned. This is well after the whole resurrection thing so I don't think he lost any levels after. Shouldn't he be listed as 15 by now?

Incidentally, if Roy wins the current fight I don't suppose that would be enough to put him into 16 would it? I doubt it, he was barely 15, but Durkon was already a level above him and gained a template worth 2 HD, so maybe the xp will be substantial enough to make a difference.

As I recall, discussion following the "two guts" conversation led to the conclusion that Roy was level 14 during the Azure City battle and therefore level 14 after the fight with Tarquin; redone xp calcs supported this.

Here is a correct link.

[Quild]

The only thing that bugs me about it the confirmation that Roy has the spellsplinter manoeuver.
It means that either it is a Fighter feat, either Roy reached level 15.

The first one, I have no problem with it.

The second one... It would mean that when Roy says he "just barely caught up to where he was before dying", it's not to be taken first degree.
As exemple: I know a lot of players who would complain about their character having no progression, while the character had.

He could be complaining about the progression from 14 and some xp to 15 while Haley went from 12-13 to 16 in the same time.

I'm fine with both. But I prefer the first one. Maybe we'll figure it when the number of Roy's attack will be more evident.

[Chronos]

Given that Roy's a fighter, he learned the feat from a fighter, Wrecan speaks of the feat being known by fighters, and almost all feats that improve melee combat in some way are fighter bonus feats, I think it's an assumption almost not worth even noting that Spellsplinter is a fighter bonus feat.

[dsollen]

As I recall, discussion following the "two guts" conversation led to the conclusion that Roy was level 14 during the Azure City battle and therefore level 14 after the fight with Tarquin; redone xp calcs supported this.

Here is a correct link.

I figured it was something like that. However, that still means the forum link for roy is wrong. It needs to be pointed to the new discussion.

[Quartz]

I think it's an assumption almost not worth even noting that Spellsplinter is a fighter bonus feat.

I agree, but you can still take a fighter bonus feat as your every-three-levels feat.

[unbeliever536]

I agree, but you can still take a fighter bonus feat as your every-three-levels feat.

Yes, but we're trying to establish a minimum level here, not an exact value.

[dsollen]

In regard to the earlier discussion as to rather or not Roy's sword dispelled Hel's might, I want to weigh in. One of the arguments was that Hel's might has such a long duration that it could not possible have worn off yet; I disagree with this. I know how Righteous might works, but looking back at all the uses of Thor's Might, like this example already brought up, it has always appeared to be a shorter, but stronger, buff then righteous might. I think Thor/Hel might are houseruled (well, obviously, they have different names so some sort of house rule exists) versions that function slightly different then RAW, and thus one should not try to deduce anything by presuming a spell duration.

In fact not only does Thor's might usually appear shorter, but also much higher damage. Righteous might only gives +4 to str so basically +2 to damage roles at expense of -1 to attack roles offensively. It gives lots of defensive boosts, but durkon often seems to do massively more damage when it's active, disproportional to a tiny +2 to damage roles. For instance compare damage he does to what hinjo was doing here

Notice the spell ended after a single round of attack. Durkon probably cast it before that round, but at this time there is no indication that there is any other strong threat on the city walls, the spell would almost be counter productive against hobgoblins, wasting a round for a minor buff against things he can 1 hit KO easily. He has always saved Thor's might as big guns in emergencies so it seems unlikely he just happened to have used it 11 rounds prior to fight hobgoblins just to see hojo in trouble and by pure coincidence get there with just one round left to save him. More likely it's a short duration buff he used to get just when he saw a threat and which wore off shortly after.

A better example though isthese strips , even though the battle happened off screen. We see when Thor's might was cast and when it ended, and the later strip it seems very unlikely Durkon dismissed the spell at will, it appears to either have run out or be some house ruled variant that wears off if your taken to negative hp or something.

So if Thor's might works exactly like righteous might that means that during the period off scene we would have had to have spent 13 rounds of combat (he was lvl 13 then) off panel between the linked comics for the spell to wear off. That feels way to long.

I would expect durkon to know how Hinjo's attacks were doing without having to ask after 13 rounds of combat, that line seems to be referencing the attack that he helped facilitate with Thor's Might; though I admit that argument is hardly conclusive.

More to the point, could this fight really have gone another 13 rounds during the gap without coming to a conclusion? Would V kept blasting away for 13 turns before she got around to trying her stone trick? Does the devil have enough hit die to survive 13 rounds of blaster damage? How many spells does V have? Shouldn't she have run out of high level spells by now?

Spoiler: boring counting of spells

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In fact lets do the math on her spells. According to the link chronos just kindly provided me V was level 13 during this battle. lets assume that V has the full 24 int V later displays (perhaps a bit generous, since V presumably upped her int at level 16). Lets also presume that that she has the same ring of wizardry 3 that was used as the presumption when calculating her int

Her spells are:

Spoiler

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7th: 2
6th: 3
5th: 4
4th: 5

for a total of 14 spells above 4th level

We see her cast:

Spoiler

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7th: 2 (prismatic spray, banish) -unless she was interrupted before casting?
6th: 2 (disintegrate, viel)
5th: 2 (empowered lightning bolt, quickened magic missile)
4th: 1(crushing dispair)
2nd: 1 (gust of wind)
unknown: bluish cone spell possibly V greater animal messenger.

for a total of at least 7 4th or higher spells cast, plus a mystery cone spell.

She had already cast in the round where Durkon used Thor's might. I'm not sure what is the start of a round when Thor's might ends, since Durkon doesn't seem to be taking his turn right after it ends, but lets say that the crushing despair was cast the same round that Thor's might ended.

That means that V got in 12 rounds off panel . If we assume she cast one spell per round (and come on, when would V ever not do so, especially with her current mindset at the time?) that is a total of *13* unknown spells cast, including the mystery cone spell.

She only has 7 spells above 4th level left after we include her spells cast with a minimum of 13 unknown spells cast if Thor's might is really 1 rd/lvl. That means at least 8 of the unknown spells would have to be below 4th level; and this isn't even including the possibility of her casting other quickened spells, having spells above 4th level that weren't useful in the fight and thus weren't cast, or any other off panel spells she may have cast before thor's might. Even if we assumed she was wearing a wing of wizardry 4 instead of 3 she *still* would have had to have dipped into her 3rd level spell slots.

And remember, after thor's might ended she cast disintegrate and prismatic spray; meaning for some reason she would have had to have been throwing around 3rd level spells in a difficult fight, during a time when she was impatient, trying to prove her arcane might, and not at all inclined to pace herself, without using the two strongest spells she had available in the fight.

I think it's far more likely that Thor's might is house ruled as a shorter & stronger spell then to presume V would lower herself to spending half her rounds casting 3rd level spells for no apparent reason.


While I can't recall the other instances of Durkon using Thor's Might (I wish I did, please if anyone recalls link them!!) I had always felt it seemed like a shorter but stronger spell then Righteous might every time it was cast.

the point being, I do not think it's safe to presume that Thor's Might is just another name for Righteous Might. Then, if we presume thor's might is house ruled then Hel's might appeared to last for just about the length of time the previous Might spells usually lasted.

Considering how..specific an ability the sword would have to have to remove enchantments, and that we know for a fact that the green glow did not remove enchantments here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html (and here they are lots of low level enhancements, so if the sword had a dispel mechanic it would be more likely to overcome these weaker ones then Hel's Might). Presuming not one (the heal) but multiple new abilities all appeared at the same time and were all perfectly suited to defeating this one foe, seems less likely then Hel's Might was house ruled. I definitely don't think it meets the standard of proof required by this thread.

[Ephemera]

So, does panel 7 of comic 1014 imply that Bloodfeast has overcome Gontor's vampire damage resistance? If so, any idea how that's possible (forgive me if I'm ignoring something obvious about his polymorphed traits).

I guess we know from his writing on the subject that the Giant isn't a big fan of the polymorph rules so house rule is a strong possibility (I suppose that rules preventing abuse of polymorph spells as buffs might reasonably also wind up limiting how much nerfing you'd get from a baleful polymorph spell), but otherwise the baleful polymorph description says that he should have all the charcteristics of a normal lizard of whatever type he is (has it been 24 hours since he was transformed?).

I realize we're not tracking Bloodfeast unless we somehow decide that he's Belkar's companion (unlikely!), but this seems nevertheless the best place to pose this question.