Upcoming Screw Attack Death Battle

[Seerow]

Sure, end-game Tifa could one-shot Yang with Knights-of-the-Round, and could use stupid material combos to cheese, but everything we know about Tifa's personality and choice of fighting style is that her first attack will be to start slugging.

So equip her with 4xCut, W-Item, Final-Attack Phoenix, Attack Up, HP Up, and 10x Counter Attack (or 5x Counter-4xCut and drop W-Item). The Fighting Style is still entirely based on her fists, but her basic attack routine is getting 4 attacks per round and then getting between 10 and 20 attacks every time she is attacked. Then if somehow dies anyway, she comes back to life.

There's a lot more ways to take advantage of materia than spamming Knights of the Round.


That said, in the Cloud DB they only used Cloud's starter materia, so he was using basic stuff like casting Fire, which is really lame and I fully expect any future FF7 matchups to do similarly.

[Mato]

There is an odd quark in FF7, linking counter to x4 does nothing. I guess it might be a deva thought it was too powerful thing.

But they didn't lock out attaching mime to counter which can mime x4 cut if it was your last action. Same end result, but I guess I'm showing my nerd knowledge.

[Legato Endless]

Also, to counterpoint the part about different Links being not the same person. Skyward Sword, then newest game when the video was released, showed us the nature of Master Sword, more specifically, why it is always a Link that uses it. In the game, unlocking full power of the Master Sword makes it so that only Link is able to use it. Yet other successive Link in chronologically later Links can use it... who all bear atleast some resemblence to the original, who often involve a Zelda that is very close to the original.

It's clear there's something of a reincarnation or legacy inheritance from each successive pair to the next, making it valid to composite them.

Well it depends. Being a reincarnation it makes sense that each Link could use the items of another version, but they don't inherit the previous ability of their predessors, as there's entirely too much variance shown. Amalgamatimg that isn't really Link, but it's kind of irrelevant as I think the composite items with the most experienced version would be enough to take Cloud.

[Mato]

Amalgamatimg that isn't really Link

Actually future Links have discovered a previous Link's items before. Such as Twilight's Hero's Bow or Sahasrahla's implication that there is only one pair of Pegasus boots/shoes. So when an incarnation happens to come across one of the many of the same item types, it's possible to say they might even be the same exact item. Like ever notice the red mail appears in the last dungeon of at least three games? Maybe he strips it off after freeing the princess

And many people like to think Twilight was the only time Link learned any maneuvers. But the Wind Waker Link, while being taught the basics of countering by Orca, intuitively uses the helm splitter and back slice techniques. Minish Cap also takes place extremely early in the timeline, requiring Link to learn many abilities from the Tiger Scrolls that later reincarnations will take for granted.

Link is also canonically shown in several games to be capable of traveling through time, so while it hasn't truly hasn't happened yet it's always been possible for one incarnation of Link to meet another. And this does partially happen in Twilight, with a spiritual remnant hanging around for the sole purpose of passing his skills on.

[Legato Endless]

Link is also canonically shown in several games to be capable of traveling through time, so while it hasn't truly hasn't happened yet it's always been possible for one incarnation of Link to meet another. And this does partially happen in Twilight, with a spiritual remnant hanging around for the sole purpose of passing his skills on.

Certainly. The items being interchangeable makes perfect sense. And they can inherit skills, but I don't see them as all being equivalent in prowess from one incarnation to another. At the very least, some of them needed significantly more assistance. The Hero of the Winds wasn't able to fully wield the Master Sword on his own, he needed the assistance of the Sages to do it. One incarnation of the Hero of Time canonically failed. Every Link could certainly wield the various items, but put them in a tournament, I don't think it would be a series of draws. Some showed more talent, some acquired a lot more adventuring experience.

[Mato]

The Hero of the Winds wasn't able to fully wield the Master Sword on his own,

Actually he did. It's said that over time, Wind Waker has a massive time skip, that the edge was dulled and it's power to repel evil deteriorated and that ability can be recovered by awakening at least two of the Sages.

And in all actuality. Unlike most games the damage of the Master Sword cannot be improved in Wind Waker. Both upgrades do not improve it's so called dull edge at all. You're only restoring it's ability to repel evil, and even after being fully restored you'll note it doesn't murder Link in his sleep. Sort of like the Hero of Time you claimed failed was as a matter of fact able to use the blade. That so called "failure" was his young self was too weak to be able to use it so the Master Sword warped time until the same kid with literally the same mind/spirit, had a more developed body.

[Legato Endless]

Sort of like the Hero of Time you claimed failed was as a matter of fact able to use the blade. That so called "failure" was his young self was too weak to be able to use it so the Master Sword warped time until the same kid with literally the same mind/spirit, had a more developed body.

What do you mean 'claimed' Mato? An incarnation of Link failed in his quest in OoT. His death and inability to stop Ganondorf leads to the timeline of the Link to the Past/Oracle/Link's awakening games. How is that anything other than a failure?

[Mato]

What do you mean 'claimed' Mato?

Meaning your post ambiguously referred to something that in context said nothing that you meant it to.

Your last post started off agreeing about items and how you didn't think that prowess was equal. Then as you can see you quantified that by talking about how assistance was needed.

Certainly. The items being interchangeable makes perfect sense. And they can inherit skills, but I don't see them as all being equivalent in prowess from one incarnation to another. At the very least, some of them needed significantly more assistance. The Hero of the Winds wasn't able to fully wield the Master Sword on his own, he needed the assistance of the Sages to do it. One incarnation of the Hero of Time canonically failed. Every Link could certainly wield the various items, but put them in a tournament, I don't think it would be a series of draws. Some showed more talent, some acquired a lot more adventuring experience.

But as you can see, your two examples are about how the Hero of the Winds needed the Sages for the Master Sword and a assertion that the Hero of Time failed.
Well failed at what exactly?
Well in context you're talking about the Master Sword, the Hero certain didn't fail at that.
It's supposed to be an example of assistance, which the Hero of Time certainly didn't need.
Then you went right back into talking about how every Link could wield the items but some are more talented. So not only did you switch over to a whole other context in the middle of your paragraph, you immediately switched back.

Sometimes it's a little hard to catch stuff like that.

[Forum Explorer]

What do you mean 'claimed' Mato? An incarnation of Link failed in his quest in OoT. His death and inability to stop Ganondorf leads to the timeline of the Link to the Past/Oracle/Link's awakening games. How is that anything other than a failure?

I thought that was because he was removed from the timeline or something? Whatever Zelda did at the end of OoT anyways.

[Seerow]

I thought that was because he was removed from the timeline or something? Whatever Zelda did at the end of OoT anyways.

There's three separate timelines that spawn from OoT.

The first one is the one we remember playing through. Link becomes an adult, defeats Ganon in an epic showdown, saves the day.

The second one is what you described. Zelda pulls shenanigans to send Link back in time, in this timeline Link beats Ganon before he ever becomes a big deal.

The last one is the one that occurs whenever you get a game over screen in game. The Hero has failed, Ganon wins, and the world turns to Darkness. Usually this would be played off as Gameplay, and Link is just the kind of badass who never dies, but we're already dealing with time travel and a split timeline, and apparently that causes the possibility that Link can lose/die to cause a third timeline spiraling out from that.

[Zaydos]

Specifically the Sages manage to seal Ganon in the Golden Realm (thus creating the Dark World). Untold generations pass before he escapes again to be stopped by the descendants of the sages, and the last in a line of knights descended from the Knight of Hyrule who died to give them the chance (SNES translation said knights, GBA said Knight and it's implied to be the Hero of Time in specific which implies other things).

Interesting this is the only time line where Ganon is implied to be permanently defeated as in Zelda II Link stops Ganon's revival apparently permanently.

Also between Hyrule Historia (which made it canon that there were 3 time lines) and Skyward Sword it is official that Link has been reincarnating to stop Ganon in all the time lines, and since Ganon only needs to win once the fact that he hasn't means Link is pretty good at stopping him.

[Reddish Mage]

I wonder how strong "canon" can be when it appears nowhere in the actual games themselves. The "official" timeline has been revised on more than one occasion. If a new idea for a game contradicts the timeline few are going to care.

If a story doesn't appear in the media itself, it's really just commentary, and far more mutable than anything in the actual story.

Contradict the events in Wind Waker and you are messing with people's memories and ability to suspend disbelief. Put "Wind Waker" in a new timeline and few are going to even notice.

[Mato]

I thought that was because he was removed from the timeline or something? Whatever Zelda did at the end of OoT anyways.

Yeah me too, in fact it fits better.

The Historia says Link's time travel is the reason the timeline split, not every time he possibility could have died resulted in a new universe. So you can just observe all of his time travel as forked lines, meaning when he left the world to be sealed away and the true progression is Zelda was forced to awaken the Sages. When Link returned to the world seven years after he left it, that created the first fork in the timeline.

But many fans don't like the placement of the Timeline. Like if you were honestly going to do a hero fallen side, Twilight should have been on it instead of sitting on the Child side (unless you accept MM was Link's death)

[Areswargod139]

Link is also canonically shown in several games to be capable of traveling through time, so while it hasn't truly hasn't happened yet it's always been possible for one incarnation of Link to meet another. And this does partially happen in Twilight, with a spiritual remnant hanging around for the sole purpose of passing his skills on.

Like a Doctor Who crossover! Imagine the zany banter!

Ocarina Link: "Huah huah haaa!"
Twilight Link: "Hua hut haaa!"

80's Link: "Well excuuuuuuse meee, other me!

If we can't get the VA for 80's Link we can always cast/retcon a John Hurt Link in there somewhere!

[Devonix]

I wonder how strong "canon" can be when it appears nowhere in the actual games themselves. The "official" timeline has been revised on more than one occasion. If a new idea for a game contradicts the timeline few are going to care.

If a story doesn't appear in the media itself, it's really just commentary, and far more mutable than anything in the actual story.

Contradict the events in Wind Waker and you are messing with people's memories and ability to suspend disbelief. Put "Wind Waker" in a new timeline and few are going to even notice.

By necessity things like commentary or extranious media have to come before and over the games. Because player input makes the outcomes impossible to nail down to one specific continuity. What is written in the books or manual or stated by the developer overrides any thing that you do in game.

[Kato]

Like a Doctor Who crossover! Imagine the zany banter!

Ocarina Link: "Huah huah haaa!"
Twilight Link: "Hua hut haaa!"

80's Link: "Well excuuuuuuse meee, other me!

If we can't get the VA for 80's Link we can always cast/retcon a John Hurt Link in there somewhere!

I'm not sure if this is horryifying or awesome... but until proven otherwise I want to see it.


Anyway, intro episode for Yang is out and guesses were right: It's gonna be a fist fight with the busty beauty from FF VII. Well, I'm sure this won't cause any fan outrages Maybe at some point in the future they'll complete the trifecta by bringing in Aerith for a fight...

[Morbis Meh]

I'm not sure if this is horryifying or awesome... but until proven otherwise I want to see it.


Anyway, intro episode for Yang is out and guesses were right: It's gonna be a fist fight with the busty beauty from FF VII. Well, I'm sure this won't cause any fan outrages Maybe at some point in the future they'll complete the trifecta by bringing in Aerith for a fight...

Can anyone else think of some main story character that just dies halfway through the game to match up against her though?

[Flickerdart]

Can anyone else think of some main story character that just dies halfway through the game to match up against her though?

Ashley/Kaiden?

[Kato]

Can anyone else think of some main story character that just dies halfway through the game to match up against her though?

Spoiler: various old JRPGs. Also, TTGL, PMMM

Show

Galuf? I guess Minwu's not really a main character. Shadow if you don't save him, but then he's not a main character either. Oh, Tellah! Nei in Fantasy Star II. Chrono... kind of?
Kamina! Spiral Power vs... ancient Materia magic?
Tomoe Mami?
I'm sure there's a bunch more

[Traab]

Can anyone else think of some main story character that just dies halfway through the game to match up against her though?

Buffy the vampire slayer? I mean sure she comes back, but she dies like, alot. :p I wish Willow had died at one point, because uber wicca willow would setup a badass magic versus magic fight. In fact, to hell with looking for a character that died halfway through a series, give us aerith versus willow!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Anyway, intro episode for Yang is out and guesses were right: It's gonna be a fist fight with the busty beauty from FF VII. Well, I'm sure this won't cause any fan outrages Maybe at some point in the future they'll complete the trifecta by bringing in Aerith for a fight...

I'm a bit sad that Monty isn't around, because he totally would've had a crack at animating this.

[McNum]

Spoiler: various old JRPGs. Also, TTGL, PMMM

Show

Galuf? I guess Minwu's not really a main character. Shadow if you don't save him, but then he's not a main character either. Oh, Tellah! Nei in Fantasy Star II. Chrono... kind of?
Kamina! Spiral Power vs... ancient Materia magic?
Tomoe Mami?
I'm sure there's a bunch more

Spoiler: TTGL

Show

Kamina vs. Aerith?

I dig it. No, seriously, I think it just might actually work. Kamina is from the patron saint of serial escalation, but he actually dies early enough to be somewhat low power, just like Aerith. But in his death, he becomes something greater, and if going by the movie, lets his friends boost their spiral power to utterly crazy limits. Aerith, in her death, becomes not just one with the planet, but seems to actually have some influence on the planet itself.

Heh, so what would we call a Death-Battle where both characters die hallway-through the fight and keep fighting from the afterlife? Because as I see it, they might just be able to.

[Traab]

They did the tifa blurb. Seems legit. They cover her vast strength talking about hurling giant monsters for her big moves, and being able to toss cloud into the sky so fast it broke the sound barrier. They are also giving her her ultimate weapon, I think premium heart is her ultimate weapon at least. So at least they wont be leaving her with basic leather fighting gloves while yang gets shotgun gloves. They didnt cover materia though. So its possible she wont get to use any of it at all, let alone the good stuff.

[Dragonus45]

They did the tifa blurb. Seems legit. They cover her vast strength talking about hurling giant monsters for her big moves, and being able to toss cloud into the sky so fast it broke the sound barrier. They are also giving her her ultimate weapon, I think premium heart is her ultimate weapon at least. So at least they wont be leaving her with basic leather fighting gloves while yang gets shotgun gloves. They didnt cover materia though. So its possible she wont get to use any of it at all, let alone the good stuff.

I imagine its going to be premium heart plus what we saw her with in Advent Children and possibly any materia she has when you first get her. Unfortunately I can't really remember if she starts with any.

[McNum]

I imagine its going to be premium heart plus what we saw her with in Advent Children and possibly any materia she has when you first get her. Unfortunately I can't really remember if she starts with any.

I don't believe she does. She starts with a "You should go to the Materia Store and here's 1500 gil" message instead. So, if we go by what that store has, it'd be Cure, Fire, Ice, and Bolt. Respectable, but also a little lackluster compared to other Materia. Still, Cure is a pretty solid pick for a Death Battle.

[Dragonus45]

I don't believe she does. She starts with a "You should go to the Materia Store and here's 1500 gil" message instead. So, if we go by what that store has, it'd be Cure, Fire, Ice, and Bolt. Respectable, but also a little lackluster compared to other Materia. Still, Cure is a pretty solid pick for a Death Battle.

Well they would probably bump them up to the -aga versions as well.

[Mato]

Well they would probably bump them up to the -aga versions as well.

I think Cloud was stuck with Fira so that's not a certainty.

[Almarck]

I think Cloud was stuck with Fira so that's not a certainty.

They stated he got firaga in the intro when previewing his gear. Along with thundaga.

Granted I don't know final Fantasy 7 at all. Is there a real difference as side from bigger numbers with firaga or fira?

[Mato]

Granted I don't know final Fantasy 7 at all. Is there a real difference as side from bigger numbers with firaga or fira?

That's pretty much it, costs more mp to deal more damage.

Specifically in FF7, a lv1 Tifa with str/mag 1 hitting an opponent that has 1 def/magdef, firega deals 47 damage but armed with the Premium Heart (max 99 attack power) her punch deals 109 damage (calc).

[DiscipleofBob]

For those who watched the live stream, we have an outcome...

Spoiler: Tifa VS Yang

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Yang wins.

I guess in the end without a buttload of broken materia combinations it's no real surprise. DB gives Tifa more strength and experience, but Yang has that semblance and aura to block and counter everything. While I think Tifa probably would have won with better materia, I like both characters enough that it doesn't bother me too much.

Spoiler: Other Characters

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In lieu of no teaser for next DeathBattle, here's a question: Would another Final Fantasy Monk / Blackbelt have done better?

Snow? Zell? Sabin? Josef? Yang from FFIV? Yang's daughter Ursula? One of the versions from the games with job/class systems?

It's not Final Fantasy, but what about Ayla from Chrono Trigger?