Feats/Classes that Grant non-TOB Maneuvers

[Seerow]

So right now I am working on a build for a very low op game. Like brand new players who are on the level that taking Martial Weapon Proficiency on their Druid seems like a good idea.


So I decided to go about optimizing a Duelist, in my attempt to match to that level of play while still having fun with the build. I am looking for abilities and feats that grant special attack options, preferably usable with piercing weapons, that aren't directly tied to Tome of Battle (which I am avoiding because low optimization threshold).

I'm looking for things like Stunning Fist, Intimidating Strike, Einhander's "I'm not really left handed!" maneuver, Brutal Strike, etc. Basically I'm trying to make a swordsman with as many tricks up his sleeve as possible without actually resorting to ToB (seriously I know that dipping a level into Warblade or Swordsage would get me as many tricks as I can get from everything else put together, that's not the point). I'm also a big fan of the various skill tricks and am planning to make significant use of those (especially the mobility tricks).


So, how many other abilities out there fall into this category?

[sideswipe]

sundering, bullrushing, disarming, tripping are all good things with a feat or two invested, just the improved versions so no AoO make them good.

you could ask your DM to allow ambush feats for the precise strike damage and maybe enter with rogue or something else like that.

take karmic strike or Robilar's Gambit and use many AoO's to deal damage as possible, call it riposting. its very duelist.



edit - with dex and int to AC, add in the normal bracers, nat armour, ring protect, an animated shield, your 5 ranks in tumble giving +3 dodge ac when defensively, add combat expertise and your level after 7th and you have a pretty amazing AC. use robilars gambit and a large amount of AoO and you could really pull of the riposting duelist type.

dex 30ish, into 20 ish (these are being reserved)
dex +10
int +5
bracers +8
amulet and ring +12
shield +5 (at least)
defensively +3
expertise +5
level +10
base 10
=69, that is not optimised!

say hello to all the free attacks. and getting to attack in your turn with whatever other things you have.

[Zaq]

Well, if you like Intimidating Strike, there's also Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun). Both of them let you tack Shaken onto a normal attack, and they stack nicely. Daunting Presence (Miniatures Handbook) is similar, and it works at range, but it happens instead of attacking, rather than in addition to attacking.

If you've got magic in your pocket, there's Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) and Netherese Battle Curse (Lost Empires of Faerun). Arcane Strike adds damage, NBC adds debuffs. But of course, those require having arcane spells to burn, which may or may not be the case.

Goad (Miniatures Handbook) is one of the only hard-aggro mechanics in 3.5. It's far from foolproof, but it's one of your only options if you like that kind of thing.

Sandstorm has a few neat options. Pharoah's Fist and Rattlesnake Strike make Stunning Fist better, if you've already invested in that. If your terrain at least minimally supports it (or if you're willing to stack the deck by carrying sand around somehow), Sand Dancer lets you tack Blinded onto your normal attack.

You say this person likes piercing weapons? Skewer Foe, from Champions of Ruin, makes you do 1d6 extra damage with every attack after the first one you make in a round, if you're using a piercing weapon.

Piercing weapons (other than the ubiquitous spiked chain) don't tend to be great at default combat maneuvers, but there's always Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and the like. If you do go for tripping, Curling Wave Strike (Stormwrack) can be fun, even if it's not always the 100% most optimal choice.

At higher levels, Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) and Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) are interesting options, especially if you combine them.

[OldTrees1]

• Fighter 2(Dungeon Crasher)
• Fearsome Armor + Imperious Command
• War Mind 5
• Scarlet Corsair 5
• Knockback
• Improved Trip + Knock-down
• Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit
• Evasive Reflexes
• Staggering Strike/Three Mountains/Boomerang Daze/Dire Flail Smash
• Barbarian 1(Spirit Lion Totem + various rages)
• Skill Tricks

[Flickerdart]

Check out the Combat Focus line in PHBII. It's nothing grand, but you can gain things like fast healing, blindsight, and bonuses VS maneuvers. Combat Defense is rather underwhelming, but the immediate-action speed change of your Dodge target lets you apply the miss chance from the Words Given Form martial art to whoever is attacking you. Words Given Form is normally not worth it, but you are probably picking up Combat Expertise, the Spring Attack line, and IUS anyway.

[Seerow]

Sideswipe: Yeah when fighting defensively, the character's AC is going to be absurd. He's actually going Kalashtar for Dancing with Shadows, with the idea being that he fights defensively sitting with a high AC looking for an opportunity before going in on a powerful hit (strongly considering a couple levels of Monk for decisive strike, but that involves finding a 1 handed finessible monk weapon that can be power attacked with when used for a two handed strike. That's a bit niche without resorting to homebrew. Much easier if decisive strike didn't require a special monk weapon D:)


I hadn't considered Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike in that light before, and will likely go for one or the other (probably Robilar's Gambit since Karmic Strike requires the enemy to hit to activate, while Robilar's does not).



Zaq: Dreadful Wrath is a good one, though it being regional could pose problems. Love the Pharoah's fist, being able to deliver an AoE stun is great. Sand Dancer is similarly pretty awesome, and it being able to be used with "loose earth" as well as sand makes it open ended enough to use reliably even without carrying sand around in a pouch (not that doing that is out of the question).

Was planning on trying to work in Improved Disarm and Improved Feint if possible. They're very fitting for the concept (trying to really play up the duelist/fencer archetype, and both of those are a big part of that), but they're lower priority simply because even after investing in them they aren't particularly valuable. Trip on the other hand I don't see investing much in, though the Curling Wave Strike was very helpful as a reference for a friend in another game, so thanks for that.

Skewer Foe I came across fairly recently, and yeah that is a neat feat. Probably more fitting for a TWFing blender than what I am going for, but definitely a cool feat worth mentioning nontheless.



As far as weapons go, right now the most likely weapons for the character to use are a Broadblade Shortsword, Elven Thinblade, or Rapier. I really wish Driving Attack didn't get set behind weapon mastery, because it is awesome, exactly the sort of thing I am looking for, but I can't justify 4 levels of fighter and 4 feats for it.


OldTrees-I wonder, can you aptitude boomerang daze? If so that is an awesome addition. If not, still not a bad ranged option, since I was considering a dip into exoticist I could snag the boomerang proficiency without much trouble. Dire Flail Smash is more likely to work with aptitude, but much harder the qualify for. Most of the others are things I've already been looking at, but I'll check out the Scarlet Corsair and Warmind. Warmind particularly could end up being good since I've been wondering what to do with Kalashtar's PP.

Flickerdart-The words given form martial art unfortunately requires 12 ranks of truespeech. Which isn't obtainable pre-epic for a non-truenamer. Which is too bad because the rest of it wouldn't be too bad to qualify for, and a practically always on 50% miss chance is both great and fits the flavor perfectly.

I'll look over the Combat Focus line again, it's been a few years since I've done anything with them, but I remember them mostly being more passive rather than new active options.

[OldTrees1]

OldTrees-I wonder, can you aptitude boomerang daze? If so that is an awesome addition. If not, still not a bad ranged option, since I was considering a dip into exoticist I could snag the boomerang proficiency without much trouble. Dire Flail Smash is more likely to work with aptitude, but much harder the qualify for. Most of the others are things I've already been looking at, but I'll check out the Scarlet Corsair and Warmind. Warmind particularly could end up being good since I've been wondering what to do with Kalashtar's PP.

I am harder on Aptitude than this forum's norm. I limit it to the _feat name_(weapon of choice) feats like Improved Critical(Scimitar). So I would not allow Aptitude on the Boomerang Daze/Dire Flail Smash/Three Mountain feats. However Staggering Strike is not weapon specific and is easy to qualify for.

Scarlet Corsair gains a free Feint ever 2d4 rounds at 3rd and an AoE intimidate at 5th.

[Seerow]

I am harder on Aptitude than this forum's norm. I limit it to the _feat name_(weapon of choice) feats like Improved Critical(Scimitar). So I would not allow Aptitude on the Boomerang Daze/Dire Flail Smash/Three Mountain feats. However Staggering Strike is not weapon specific and is easy to qualify for.

Yeah I can see that ruling, but it is something that ultimately comes down to DM. Definitely like Staggering Strike, especially since I'll want to grab some SA anyway for Scarlet Corsair

Scarlet Corsair gains a free Feint ever 2d4 rounds at 3rd and an AoE intimidate at 5th.

Okay yeah, that's actually really perfect. Might try to haggle my way out of being a pirate (use Profession(Duelist) or something similar to fill in the "waste these skill ranks" requirement), but the free feint and improved intimidate fits perfectly in flavor.

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart-The words given form martial art unfortunately requires 12 ranks of truespeech. Which isn't obtainable pre-epic for a non-truenamer. Which is too bad because the rest of it wouldn't be too bad to qualify for, and a practically always on 50% miss chance is both great and fits the flavor perfectly.

I'll look over the Combat Focus line again, it's been a few years since I've done anything with them, but I remember them mostly being more passive rather than new active options.

Truename Training (or Human Paragon or a Factotum dip - or hell, a Truenamer dip isn't ultra bad for an Int focused character like a Duelist) takes care of the class skill issue.

Combat Defense and Combat Strike are the only active Combat Focus abilities - everything else works while you have Combat Focus active.

If you're flexible on race, Killoren Destroyer is a pretty sweet option (stun whenever you hit someone with a Killoren Smite).

[sideswipe]

Truename Training (or Human Paragon or a Factotum dip - or hell, a Truenamer dip isn't ultra bad for an Int focused character like a Duelist) takes care of the class skill issue.

its a large investment though.

[Flickerdart]

its a large investment though.

He's a feat and a skill away from 50% miss chance - it's not a bad cost.

[Sian]

as an off-beat suggestion ... Singh Rager 5 for free panicked 4+cha times a day, at a DC 14+½ Char Level + Cha Mod, while getting Pounce and a small pseudo-rage on the journey

[sideswipe]

He's a feat and a skill away from 50% miss chance - it's not a bad cost.

um 1 feat for truename training, and pump the skill with stuff for a lot of money and skill points.

you don't even have an utterance for 1 feat...... how 50% miss chance?

[Seerow]

Right now what I am looking at is:

Monk 2/Fighter2/Swashbuckler3/Duelist7/Rogue1/Scarlet Corsair 5

2 Flaws: Carmendine Monk, Intimidating Strike
1) Monk 1 (Stunning Fist) Dodge
2) Monk 2 (Combat Reflexes)
3) Swashbuckler 1 (Weapon Finesse), Mobility
4) Exoticist Fighter 1 (Power Attack)
5) Exoticist Fighter 2 (Combat Expertise)
6) Swashbuckler 2, Imperious Command
7) Swashbuckler 3
8) Duelist 1
9) Duelist 2, Path of Shadows
10) Duelist 3
11) Duelist 4
12) Duelist 5, Dancing with Shadows
13) Duelist 6
14) Duelist 7
15) Rogue 1, Staggering Strike
16) Scarlet Corsair 1 (Improved Feint)
17) Scarlet Corsair 2
18) Scarlet Corsair 3, Robilar's Gambit
19) Scarlet Corsair 4
20) Scarlet Corsair 5


The biggest place where I have room to move around is by dropping out the Dancing with Shadows. If I go human instead, that's a net gain of 3 feats (or really probably 4 by dropping Power Attack as well) which can be used on various options presented in this thread. On the other hand, Dancing With Shadows is a pretty awesome feat that fits very tightly with what I want, especially if I can find a good monk weapon to use Decisive Strike with. But the idea behind the Dancing With Shadows is most rounds fight defensively using the various maneuvers, and after setting up a good opening, using Graceful Lunge to get off a full two-handed power attack at no attack penalty (or even a net bonus) with doubled damage from Decisive Strike.

[Flickerdart]

um 1 feat for truename training, and pump the skill with stuff for a lot of money and skill points.

you don't even have an utterance for 1 feat...... how 50% miss chance?

Pump the what with the what now? No, Words Given Form isn't an utterance, it's a Martial Art. You sink the 12 Truespeech ranks into it and never need to look at the skill again, and it doesn't cost anything once you have the prerequisites. It's a very obscure mechanic that was introduced in OA and never really received splat support aside from this mention in ToM.

[sideswipe]

Pump the what with the what now? No, Words Given Form isn't an utterance, it's a Martial Art. You sink the 12 Truespeech ranks into it and never need to look at the skill again, and it doesn't cost anything once you have the prerequisites. It's a very obscure mechanic that was introduced in OA and never really received splat support aside from this mention in ToM.

so for 24 skill points and 5 feats you get to spend a 6th feat on words given form for a 50% miss chance against a single opponent for that round?

[gorfnab]

If you go with Cobra Strike Monk and drop the Stunning fist you could free up another feat. Deadly Defense will give you a minor damage boost while fighting defensively. Elusive Target would be a nice option to squeeze in somewhere.

[dextercorvia]

Unbalancing Strike(OA) Your successful unarmed strike makes your (humanoid) opponent lose their dex bonus to ac on a failed save (Ref, Wis based). Requires Stunning Fist, but doesn't use an attempt, so do it with every attack. (Other SF feats got errata stating they use an attempt, but this one was left out.)

There are a few more in the feat section of my Melee Debuff Miniguide, although that was focused on debuffing, rather than just any maneuver like option.

[Seerow]

so for 24 skill points and 5 feats you get to spend a 6th feat on words given form for a 50% miss chance against a single opponent for that round?

The feat requirements are Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike. All of those except Spring Attack I already have. So really he's recommending 1 feat and either a second feat or a level dip into Factotum, plus the skillpoints, to be able to at will have 50% miss chance against whoever my dodge target is.

It is a pretty high investment to go for if you don't already meet most of the requirements, but as he pointed out I am most of the way there already, and it is worth pointing out even if I don't go for it.

If you go with Cobra Strike Monk and drop the Stunning fist you could free up another feat. Deadly Defense will give you a minor damage boost while fighting defensively. Elusive Target would be a nice option to squeeze in somewhere.

I could, but Stunning Fist + ki focus weapon actually fits what I want quite well (as far as getting different maneuvers to use in combat), and with Carmendine Monk changing the save DC to int based, that save will remain relevant throughout play.

[Kraken]

Where in ToM is words given form found?

[Sian]

sidebar p218

[sideswipe]

The feat requirements are Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike. All of those except Spring Attack I already have. So really he's recommending 1 feat and either a second feat or a level dip into Factotum, plus the skillpoints, to be able to at will have 50% miss chance against whoever my dodge target is.

It is a pretty high investment to go for if you don't already meet most of the requirements, but as he pointed out I am most of the way there already, and it is worth pointing out even if I don't go for it.

actually from where you are its a level dip and 2 feats or 3 feats. one for spring attack, one for the feat and one for truespeak if no dip.

and its a 50% miss chance against a single opponent. if there are two its almost useless. unless you take improved dodge then its good for two a round....

instead of 3 feats and a tonne of skill points get an item, its a much smaller percentage of your resources.
think without bonus feats you get 7 feats in your life. and you have spent a lot to get the prerequisites (they are for other things) you still need to pay over a third of your feats or more than a quarter and one precious level just for a very restrictive bonus... most smart DM's use groups as single target encounters are a cake walk usually.

what i am saying is even from where you are, its too much of an investment for a pretty pathetic ability.

[Troacctid]

It's not just a 50% miss chance, it's total concealment. Meaning they can't target you, they can't make attacks of opportunity against you, they lose their Dex to AC against all your attacks, you get +2 to hit them...

[Flickerdart]

actually from where you are its a level dip and 2 feats or 3 feats. one for spring attack, one for the feat and one for truespeak if no dip.

Bro.

Martial Arts do not take up a feat.

[sideswipe]

can i have a page reference for this? online sources say it either does not exist or is a feat giving exactly what i said and only saying its in ToM. so please give a page reference.

[Seerow]

can i have a page reference for this? online sources say it either does not exist or is a feat giving exactly what i said and only saying its in ToM. so please give a page reference.

ToM page 218.

"First introduced in Oriental Adventures martial arts styles are added benefits gained when a character takes a certain assortment of feats. A character who takes the feats within a style gains a mastery ability related to the techniques of that style"

I'm still most likely not taking it, but he is right.

[Flickerdart]

can i have a page reference for this? online sources say it either does not exist or is a feat giving exactly what i said and only saying its in ToM. so please give a page reference.

I don't know what your online sources are, but googling "words given form martial art" will tell you that it's on Page 218 of the Tome of Magic in the preview blurb of the first result.

[sideswipe]

ToM page 218.

"First introduced in Oriental Adventures martial arts styles are added benefits gained when a character takes a certain assortment of feats. A character who takes the feats within a style gains a mastery ability related to the techniques of that style"

I'm still most likely not taking it, but he is right.

ok you get total concealment from a single target. the target of your dodge. which means they cant directly attack you only your square with a 50% chance of hitting you.... so apart from a few exceptions its just a miss chance, but total concealment does mean a few other things.

sorry the online stuff was wrong, but a page ref had been mentioned earlier in the thread with no reply.

still its only a bit better then what i said and a feat cheaper. for what it is and costs its very underwhelming.

[Kraken]

Huh. Seemingly that miss chance would be (EX)? That is pretty good, but...those pre reqs, damn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The various tactical and weapon style feats introduced in Complete Warrior and appearing in other books such as PH2, Races of the Wild, and Drow of the Underdark would be a good place to look. There are also reserve feats in Complete Mage and Complete Champion for spellcasters.