Tolkien-esque magic levels?

[Talakeal]

It's reasonable to assume that the abilities we see him use, are only a subset of those he has.

But more importantly: a 5th-level Aragorn just doesn't make sense given the character's backstory. How has he survived for, like, 60 years in the wilderness, fighting orcs and trolls and wargs on a daily basis, and accumulated only enough XP to reach... level 5? He should have passed that point 59 years ago.

On-page, we see the Fellowship defeat encounters whose CR should be way beyond "Impossible" to a party of the level being described here - the orcs and troll in Moria before the balrog shows up, the uruk-hai on Amon Hen, the Nazgul on Weathertop. If they really are that low-level - and it's true, there's no solid proof they're not - then what that proves, quite conclusively to my mind, is that D&D classes and levels are an utterly inadequate way of describing these characters.

D&D has a pretty fast rate of advancement. You could ask the same questions about real life people, why after decades in a profession, even a combat profession, they are still more or less still regular people rather than the demigods that are mid level D&D characters.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why can't Sauron be level 12 (or lower, if he has CL boosters or Forge Ring as a bonus feat, or brought the Ring into being with some alternative ability such as wish) and still have one or two divine ranks?

Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to imply there was a level requirement for divine ranks, I meant that Sauron is level 12 (assuming modelled as a PC), and has a couple of divine ranks.

Again, only if you're ignoring the clues the actual text gives you as far as power scales go. Really, check the Silmarillion; it's amazing. Much more compelling than Lord of the Rings itself, with much better characterization.

I did. IT was far dryer than Lord of the Rings, and I only managed to get two thirds of the way through the latter. My point was that you said that Sauron was 'one of the most powerful Maiar', which is meaningless without me actually having a clue as to the power level of a Maiar (I got far enough into the Silmarillion to know that they make stuff, and then put it down because it was boring and I had to return it to the library). For all I know a Maiar could be as strong as the average hobbit, can I please get some background here? (Don't say 'read the Silmarillion', one man's amazing is another mans dry and boring)

...really? As I've said, I think 3e's power scales are a really terrible fit.

Not actually denying that, but the thread started on D&D and so I'm defaulting to it (also, I don't have the time to try and give them all GURPS stats, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gandalf only hit three or four hundred character points). In fact, I'm arguing for low-level characters for precisely this reason.

That's the actual way Sauron was defeated, per every source. I believe it's covered both in the Silmarillion - in the last bit "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age" - and either the appendices or the Council of Elrond in LotR. The latter explains how the ring went from Sauron to Isildur to Smeagol.

Can I get quotes, or at least page numbers? You seem to have an idea of where it's specified, so it'll save time on both ends (I have no problem believing that it happened, I questioned as I'm unsure if it was specified).

[GoblinGilmartin]

♫♩ I didn't mean to staaart a war!♫♩

[Exegesis]

Analysis: 4e does LOTR well.

If you want to model Lord of the Rings with D&D, a balrog has to be a balor. In 4e that's a level 27 elite brute. Gandalf returning as the White would be his gaining an epic destiny, placing him beforehand as a deva (they're angels bound to mortal forms, a perfect fit) wizard 20 with the paragon path Istari; hybrid him with invoker if you desire. Since his fire ring would give him resistance (immunity?) to the balor's flame whip and damaging aura, and he's free to burn all his dailies, this could happen--especially if there's a long fall down Durin's chasm which Gandalf averts with Feather Fall, but the demon suffers.

So why are there so few bangs?

There actually aren't. In the Hobbit, Gandalf is wise not to engage the trolls directly: unless he could bring them all down in one shot, Bilbo might have been killed. It's a hostage situation. And at that point in G's career it's not certain he could beat three trolls anyway, if they were more than basic level 9 ones. In the goblin caves he cast a lightning spell, and who knows how many he goblins he cut through later--the plot point is that the midgets were carried off, which is plausible if there are tons of goblins getting between Gandalf and them and Gandalf can't risk friendly fire (once again). Then Gandalf rescues the dwarves singlehandedly. Then they're pursued by a dozens of worgs, who are each level 9. That's indeed a life-threatening situation.

Lord of the Rings brings the restriction mentioned in the second post of this thread that G can only use his powers against similar beings, whether as a revised law of the universe or a specific let's be covert thing to avoid detection. His uses there are reasonable. And nowhere do I know of it being said that G was not throwing fireballs and chaos vortexes at the Morannon.

Obviously Aragorn's frontal assault is pointless as a way of diverting Sauron's land army from Orodruin, since one squad of orcs would do to stop the hobbits. It was obviously a way of specifically diverting Sauron's air force so that Gandalf and the eagles could zoom in and airlift the hobbits for aerial package delivery. It just turned out that Sauron was dumber than could be guessed. An alternate version would see the hobbits dashing for their lives from the golem sentinels Sauron has guarding the Cracks of Doom, only to be swept up by the giant eagles and flown over the caldera. But Gollum clutched onto the same eagle bearing Frodo, and their wrestling match proceeds on eagle back.

So that's Gandalf. Orcs are upper heroic tier, placing the warriors of the fellowship around that level. Aragorn the half-elf ranger (marauder style) certainly achieves a paragon path by the end. Elf archery ranger, dwarf slayer, human fighter, Sam is an inspiring warlord, Frodo is less than nothing, the cousins are whatever. What do you call it. People.

[BootStrapTommy]

I did. IT was far dryer than Lord of the Rings, and I only managed to get two thirds of the way through the latter. My point was that you said that Sauron was 'one of the most powerful Maiar', which is meaningless without me actually having a clue as to the power level of a Maiar (I got far enough into the Silmarillion to know that they make stuff, and then put it down because it was boring and I had to return it to the library). For all I know a Maiar could be as strong as the average hobbit, can I please get some background here? (Don't say 'read the Silmarillion', one man's amazing is another mans dry and boring)

Celestial, more or less. Or demons (Sauron, Balrogs, eventually Saruman) depending on whose side they're on.

You are acquainted with Gandalf, yes? Gandalf is a Wizard, or Istari. The Istari are an order of Maiar. Gandalf is, initially, one of the weakest.

Sauron, though, is more than a Maiar, he is a Maiar who inherited the powers of his Vala (read: demigod) master, Morgoth.

[veti]

D&D has a pretty fast rate of advancement. You could ask the same questions about real life people, why after decades in a profession, even a combat profession, they are still more or less still regular people rather than the demigods that are mid level D&D characters.

Well, yes. If someone suggested modelling real life people as D&D characters, I probably would ask that question.

But I haven't seen anyone doing that. Not in this thread, anyway.

Seriously, if "D&D has a pretty fast rate of advancement", but Middle-earth doesn't, then that's just another reason why the two are not a good fit.

[Premier]

Oh, just FYI: Uruk-hai literally means "half-orc."

No, it does not. Please don't spread misinformation.

In the Black Speech, "Uruk-hai" literally means "orc-people", and is more specifically used to describe the large soldier-orcs that appeared in the late Third Age. Also, at no point does Tolkien suggest that they were created by crossbreeding with humans. While he does make references to orc-like men, those are a different thing (and are NOT explicitly described as crossbreeds, either), and the notion of Uruk-hai being half-men was invented by Peter Jackson for the films.

[Anonymouswizard]

Celestial, more or less. Or demons (Sauron, Balrogs, eventually Saruman) depending on whose side they're on.

To make this clear, I know what Maiar are, I was trying to make a point. What I don't know is if they are on the level of Tolkien elves, Superman, or Cthulhu (in ascending order of power). I'm suspecting somewhere between the first two.

You are acquainted with Gandalf, yes? Gandalf is a Wizard, or Istari. The Istari are an order of Maiar. Gandalf is, initially, one of the weakest.

I've also heard people say that Gandalf was one of the stronger Istari but deferred to Saruman. I have this argument with people in real life all the time. I know the broad strokes of the lore (through reading threads like this), just not the details to be able to say stuff like 'Gandalf could beat the witch king in a fight.' Could I get a clarification on that one by the way?

Sauron, though, is more than a Maiar, he is a Maiar who inherited the powers of his Vala (read: demigod) master, Morgoth.

Do you mind giving a reference for that? First time I've heard it, I just want to be sure it isn't a crazy fan theory.

[BootStrapTommy]

To make this clear, I know what Maiar are, I was trying to make a point. What I don't know is if they are on the level of Tolkien elves, Superman, or Cthulhu (in ascending order of power). I'm suspecting somewhere between the first two.

The books use the term "the Wise" to designated a rather undefinited group of wisemen in Middle Earth. The group, however, does include the Istari as well as the most powerful among the elves, like Elrond, Galadriel, and potentially Cirdan (whom are all ringbearers, mind you). The Elves often seem to defer to Gandalf, so I'd guess you're right.

I've also heard people say that Gandalf was one of the stronger Istari but deferred to Saruman. I have this argument with people in real life all the time. I know the broad strokes of the lore (through reading threads like this), just not the details to be able to say stuff like 'Gandalf could beat the witch king in a fight.' Could I get a clarification on that one by the way?

Honestly, not sure. Guess I assumed the color of each Wizard designated a rank in addition to the Valar of their origin. Hence Gandalf getting a wardrobe change. He usurps Saurman's position as the White after Saruman's betrayal.

But maybe Gandalf was. Though how Saruman trapped him in Isengard then is beyond me.

Do you mind giving a reference for that? First time I've heard it, I just want to be sure it isn't a crazy fan theory.

The Valar Melkor is the "Satan" of Middle Earth. Once the most powerful of the Valar, he became the first Dark Lord, Morgoth, and he corrupts Sauron, who was a Maiar of the Valar Aule the Smith, as his lieutenant.

When he is originally defeated, Sauron takes up his mantle, becoming the second Dark Lord. His death marks the end of the First Age and the beginning of the Second.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Melkor

[Anonymouswizard]

The books use the term "the Wise" to designated a rather undefinited group of wisemen in Middle Earth. The group, however, does include the Istari as well as the most powerful among the elves, like Elrond, Galadriel, and potentially Cirdan (whom are all ringbearers, mind you). The Elves often seem to defer to Gandalf, so I'd guess you're right.

Honestly, not sure. Guess I assumed the color of each Wizard designated a rank in addition to the Valar of their origin. Hence Gandalf getting a wardrobe change. He usurps Saurman's position as the White after Saruman's betrayal.

But maybe Gandalf was. Though how Saruman trapped him in Isengard then is beyond me.

There are two ways it could have happened: 1) Saruman was able to use more of his powers due to no longer being good (unlikely), or 2) their powers are roughly equal, but Gandalf was caught of guard (If Saruman had a power of 100 and Gandalf 103 I could see this changing easily). The way I understand it, Saruman and Gandalf were the strongest of the Istari and approximately equals when on Middle Earth, and Gandalf decided he didn't want to lead. Because of their relatively equal power Saruman managed to trap Gandalf. Story goes here, Gandalf comes back with his colour change, having been explicitly told 'no, you take Saruman's place' and allowed to use a little more of his power just so he's more powerful than Saruman. He removes Saruman from office, but doesn't take his place, either because he doesn't want to or because he doesn't have the time. In my mind the point here is that Saruman tried to lead as a ruler, and was removed from office, whereas his replacement just tried to help people and lead by example.

Also, Gandalf doesn't have to be stronger than Saruman, my reading of him being the grey wizard is that he's second in power, not as pure as white, but moreso than brown or blue.

The Valar Melkor is the "Satan" of Middle Earth. Once the most powerful of the Valar, he became the first Dark Lord, Morgoth, and he corrupts Sauron, who was a Maiar of the Valar Aule the Smith, as his lieutenant.

When he is originally defeated, Sauron takes up his mantle, becoming the second Dark Lord. His death marks the end of the First Age and the beginning of the Second.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Melkor

I know Sauron took up Morgoth's mantle, but from what I heard Morgoth was already rather weak from making all of the world his one ring. Sauron never took his power, he was just dangerous because nobody of his power level appeared on the other side allowed to use their full power.

[aspekt]

I kind of asked this before but I feel it may have been glossed over.

Has anyone here played one or more of the ME TRPGs that have come out?

If so would you mind sharing your experiences with the game mechanics and how they compared to other TRPGs or even one of the other ME TRPGs.

Aside from my own interest I think it pertinent to the discussion to see how other systems have handled various aspects of ME.

[Knaight]

I've done a bit with Burning Wheel, which is basically a ME game (it's not an official licensed property, but it's obviously Tolkenien). It's a very solid system, with a great deal to recommend it. It's also an extremely crunchy game, which isn't something that tends to mesh with my GM style, so I haven't actually GMed it at all.

[obryn]

I did. IT was far dryer than Lord of the Rings, and I only managed to get two thirds of the way through the latter. My point was that you said that Sauron was 'one of the most powerful Maiar', which is meaningless without me actually having a clue as to the power level of a Maiar (I got far enough into the Silmarillion to know that they make stuff, and then put it down because it was boring and I had to return it to the library). For all I know a Maiar could be as strong as the average hobbit, can I please get some background here? (Don't say 'read the Silmarillion', one man's amazing is another mans dry and boring)

The first few times I started it, I stalled out early on - like, before they got done cataloging all the Valar. But once I actually got into the meat of it, with the kinslaying, Feanor and his brothers, etc.... Man, I was engrossed. The characters in it - elves and men both - are a lot more flawed and compelling, IMO, than LotR.

As for the Maiar, well, we have the Balrogs and we have seen them in action. They weren't the mightiest of Maiar, but were among the mightiest who served Morgoth.

The main issue, as I said before, is one of scale. If Gandalf - a Maiar - is 'level 5' then what does 'level 1' even mean in D&D terms? It's wacky. The 'power levels' of beings in LotR and Silmarillion vary incredibly wildly, and don't conform neatly to how D&D manages them.

Can I get quotes, or at least page numbers? You seem to have an idea of where it's specified, so it'll save time on both ends (I have no problem believing that it happened, I questioned as I'm unsure if it was specified).

You know it's more ambiguous than I'd remembered. The Jackson version matches up fairly well, but instead of a desperate swipe it's a vengeful severing.

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
....
The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as weregild for my father’s death, and my brother’s. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?’ And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.

So Sauron was 'thrown down' - but not dead - and Isildur chopped off his finger before he could recover, which was believed to be Sauron's 'death blow.'

[obryn]

I kind of asked this before but I feel it may have been glossed over.

Has anyone here played one or more of the ME TRPGs that have come out?

If so would you mind sharing your experiences with the game mechanics and how they compared to other TRPGs or even one of the other ME TRPGs.

Aside from my own interest I think it pertinent to the discussion to see how other systems have handled various aspects of ME.

MERP - the ICE 80's game - is basically Rolemaster Lite and is ... well, it's Rolemaster if you know what that entails. It's very crunchy, and it's dramatically unsuitable for a Middle Earth game - almost as ill-fitting as D&D, in this case. Magic is D&D-flashy, though rather more limited at low levels, and critical hits are a huge deal.

What it has going for it is a more comprehensive skill system, so there's different ways of measuring potency.

Most MERP supplements are actually Rolemaster supplements, and you have bizarre stuff like Galadriel getting statted up as an Astrologer (which, yes, is a Rolemaster class).

The best thing about MERP are the maps. Holy crap, those maps. MERP had the best fantasy cartography of all time, IMO.

[aspekt]

I've done a bit with Burning Wheel, which is basically a ME game (it's not an official licensed property, but it's obviously Tolkenien). It's a very solid system, with a great deal to recommend it. It's also an extremely crunchy game, which isn't something that tends to mesh with my GM style, so I haven't actually GMed it at all.

Ya I paged through a copy in a store once. It seemed to pack a lot of crunch into as small a space as possible. I'm not opposed to running a game like that, just kind of overwhelming when looking at it.

A couple of others mentioned earlier that One Ring looked solid. But they gave no specifics. I know that MERP was Rolemaster which is apparently a game for math tutors ;) from what I've heard at least.

[BootStrapTommy]

The best thing about MERP are the maps. Holy crap, those maps. MERP had the best fantasy cartography of all time, IMO.

I love maps.

Personally I've always wanted to try out the newer One Ring Roleplaying game, but I'm perpetually broke and can afford the books.
Anyone have experience with that?

All my groups none d20 roleplaying experiences ultimately fail. Even GURPS, which I love. But I feel like none of them could resist LotR is TTRPG form.

[Kami2awa]

Silmarillion explained in 3 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXxU01IgoxU

LOTR background mythology 4 minute summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...&v=YxgsxaFWWHQ

[Jayabalard]

This doesn't follow. Low-level D&D is a perfectly fine fit for LotR characters' abilities.

He ran for 3 days straight. The non-lethal damage from hustling doubles every hour. It's simply not possible for a 5th level D&D character to do that.

It doesn't model Aragorn's tracking ability very well.

They went in single file, running like hounds on a strong scent, and an eager light was in their eyes. Nearly due west the broad swath of the marching Orcs tramped its ugly slot; the sweet grass of Rohan had been bruised and blackened as they passed. Presently Aragorn gave a cry and turned aside. "Stay!" he shouted. "Do not follow me yet!" He ran quickly to the right, away from the main trail; for he had seen footprints that went that way, branching off from the others, the marks of small unshod feet.

He spotted pippin's footprints, while on the run. That's a DC 18 check (+1 for small hobbits, +2 for being 2 days behind, 15 DC base for normal ground), at -20 due to "running like a hound".

There are other issues... but the bottom line is that Aragorn is modeled by low level D&D only if you hand wave away all of the things that can't be, which is a pretty circular argument

Aragorn doesn't need to be level 20 just because you like the number 20.

Quite true. Likewise, Aragorn doesn't need to be level 5 just because someone likes level 5.

[Flickerdart]

He ran for 3 days straight. The non-lethal damage from hustling doubles every hour. It's simply not possible for a 5th level D&D character to do that.

It's not possible for anyone to do that - you're not allowed to run overland, period.

Also, a dog can't actually run while tracking - they only have a +5 Survival when tracking by scent. They could manage it at normal speed -5 penalty, but then you don't get to hold the -20 penalty above your head while pointing to it and ululating wildly, so there's that.

[Jayabalard]

It's not possible for anyone to do that - you're not allowed to run overland, period.

Sure you can; overland running is done by hustling (that's how long distance running works in D&D).

Any character that can take 2^78 damage can "run" for 80 hours straight like Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas did.

They ran for about 80 hours non-stop, except 2 fairly short rest breaks. A 5th level character can't do that. Ergo: Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas cannot actually be modeled as 5th level characters.

Also, a dog can't actually run while tracking

Aragorn can. The text is "running like hounds on a strong scent" which would be something like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFx4MNfDiwY

[veti]

He ran for 3 days straight. The non-lethal damage from hustling doubles every hour. It's simply not possible for a 5th level D&D character to do that.

Or a 50th-level one, for that matter. Or a 500th-level one, or a 50,000th level one, absent some kind of restorative magic.

But putting in two rest breaks makes all the difference. 2^23 is only 8,388,608 HP. I guess you could have that many at a mere level quarter-million or thereabouts.

However, given that there exist real people who can run for 24 hours or more non-stop, I think something may be broken in the rules there.

[Satinavian]

I always assumed, his "running" was modelled by longstrider or similar spells/abilities which allow faster and longer movement than a normal human should be able to achieve. It was noticed as an achievement in the books after all and thus was not really normal.

[illyahr]

Or he could be doing a forced march. Otherwise, Gimli wouldn't be able to keep up. The orcs were frequently stopping for one reason or another so a forced march would have them catch up eventually. That has a Fortitude save to avoid the nonlethal damage. Rangers get Endurance so he has a bonus on this save.

[Flickerdart]

Or a 50th-level one, for that matter. Or a 500th-level one, or a 50,000th level one, absent some kind of restorative magic.

But putting in two rest breaks makes all the difference. 2^23 is only 8,388,608 HP. I guess you could have that many at a mere level quarter-million or thereabouts.

However, given that there exist real people who can run for 24 hours or more non-stop, I think something may be broken in the rules there.

Well, now we've settled it - because of that one scene, Aragorn must be level 250,000, meaning that he fights level 200,000 or so Uruk-hai.

[illyahr]

No, it does not. Please don't spread misinformation.

In the Black Speech, "Uruk-hai" literally means "orc-people", and is more specifically used to describe the large soldier-orcs that appeared in the late Third Age. Also, at no point does Tolkien suggest that they were created by crossbreeding with humans. While he does make references to orc-like men, those are a different thing (and are NOT explicitly described as crossbreeds, either), and the notion of Uruk-hai being half-men was invented by Peter Jackson for the films.

Actually, the original direct translation was "orc-men." Orcs only use the word "man," or any equivalent word in other languages, when referring to humans so it followed that they were "orc-humans" or half-orcs.

[johnbragg]

D&D has a pretty fast rate of advancement. You could ask the same questions about real life people, why after decades in a profession, even a combat profession, they are still more or less still regular people rather than the demigods that are mid level D&D characters.

Ooh, ooh, I know, I know.

XP needed to level increases. Encounter CR stays the same.

Let's tweak the math a bit to make a CR 1 encounter worth 100 xp at level 1. You get some CR 2 or 3 encounters, you get some CR <1, let's say they balance out.

So 10 encounters puts you at level 2. 20 more encounters to get to level 3. 30 more to get to level 4. 40 more to get to level 5. Level 6 is 50 more than that, a total of 150 encounters.

(I'm using 10 encounters instead of 13.333 because it makes the math easily comprehensible.)

That sort of math puts the Seal Team 6's and British SAS of the world at around level 3-6 or so.

See also http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/...expectations-2 where I got most of the idea.

EDIT: This also models a lot of real-world professions. There's a often a noticeable difference in performance based on experience between a rookie lawyer/teacher/etc and a 3rd or 5th year. Between a 5 year, 10 year, 20 year veteran, not nearly as noticeable a difference. Steep learning curve at the beginning, then it flattens out.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ooh, ooh, I know, I know.

XP needed to level increases. Encounter CR stays the same.

Let's tweak the math a bit to make a CR 1 encounter worth 100 xp at level 1. You get some CR 2 or 3 encounters, you get some CR <1, let's say they balance out.

So 10 encounters puts you at level 2. 20 more encounters to get to level 3. 30 more to get to level 4. 40 more to get to level 5. Level 6 is 50 more than that, a total of 150 encounters.

(I'm using 10 encounters instead of 13.333 because it makes the math easily comprehensible.)

That sort of math puts the Seal Team 6's and British SAS of the world at around level 3-6 or so.

See also http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/...expectations-2 where I got most of the idea.

EDIT: This also models a lot of real-world professions. There's a often a noticeable difference in performance based on experience between a rookie lawyer/teacher/etc and a 3rd or 5th year. Between a 5 year, 10 year, 20 year veteran, not nearly as noticeable a difference. Steep learning curve at the beginning, then it flattens out.

Next from Onyx Path: Classroom, the Teaching

This is actually really interesting, but remember that most people aren't fighting 3-5 encounters per day (suggested number for D&D 3.5), which means that if we assume that a soldier sees combat once a month (to pick a random number, I have no idea how often any serviceman sees actual combat, whether as an average or in wartime), then the average D&D character is earning XP at roughly (30*4=)120 times as fast as a soldier, which means that by the time our soldier reaches level 2, the D&D character will have had 1200 combats, or 120000 XP, enough to place him at level 16 (probably level less if he remembers to sell his loot occasionally). This is assuming that all our combat are against those same orcs we were fighting at level 1, and the XP values for encounters do not change as we level.

No, I am not going to work out a version with the 15 minute adventuring day.

[Flickerdart]

EDIT: This also models a lot of real-world professions. There's a often a noticeable difference in performance based on experience between a rookie lawyer/teacher/etc and a 3rd or 5th year. Between a 5 year, 10 year, 20 year veteran, not nearly as noticeable a difference. Steep learning curve at the beginning, then it flattens out.

Actually, if you look at the way skills accrue, it's about the same way already - from level 1 to 6 you only about double your total skill check if you're trying to get the highest possible result.

[aspekt]

I love maps.

Personally I've always wanted to try out the newer One Ring Roleplaying game, but I'm perpetually broke and can afford the books.
Anyone have experience with that?

All my groups none d20 roleplaying experiences ultimately fail. Even GURPS, which I love. But I feel like none of them could resist LotR is TTRPG form.

Then you would love the MERPS modules with the maps still intact. Sadly, it is out of print and typical prices for complete modules are exorbitant.

I love maps too. I have laminated my Faerun map and plan on laminating most of my large rpg maps.

Tolkien adored maps as well. But you probably knew that.

[YossarianLives]

I love maps.

Personally I've always wanted to try out the newer One Ring Roleplaying game, but I'm perpetually broke and can afford the books.
Anyone have experience with that?

All my groups none d20 roleplaying experiences ultimately fail. Even GURPS, which I love. But I feel like none of them could resist LotR is TTRPG form.

I've never played the One Ring RPG but I'll be getting my new copy in a couple days.

I'm so excited.