[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread III)

[ErrantX]

We went through 50 pages in like, a month. WOW guys!!

Man, is it that time already? It seems like Path of War just happened! For those of you not familiar with the project, the original Path of War introduced a new paradigm of martial combat to Pathfinder by remaking, revamping, and expanding on the maneuver system introduced late in 3.5's run. I'm really happy to say that it's gained a lot of interest and support, and I couldn't be prouder to be involved with the project.

And now it's time to announce (well, technically re-announce but hey, new thread) Path of War Expanded, the first supplementary content for the Path of War line! What's up with Expanded? Just about everything! Path of War built up a super solid foundation with three base classes, new feats, martial disciplines and the new Traditions system, among other things, but it was necessarily lacking in some other ideas. Path of War Expanded will flesh out those gaps with worldbuilding advice, new items and weapons, new feats (including style feats!), new disciplines and additional Traditions. Included as well are three new base classes that combine supernatural prowess with swordsmanship: the Harbinger, Mystic, and Zealot.

What's a new thread without some links and teasers? Not a new thread at all, that's what. So here's some of ours:

- The Harbinger, a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. A new archetype, the Bleak Emissary, is available for beta testing. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

- The Zealot, a psionic swordsman who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines. Zealot archetypes may be found here.

- The Mystic, a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes can be found here.

But wait, there's more!

- Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar, for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

Discipline List! (in no particular order)

- The Eternal Guardian discipline

- The Sleeping Goddess discipline

- The Cursed Razor discipline

- The Shattered Mirror discipline

- The Mithral Current discipline

- The Riven Hourglass discipline, available for open beta.

- The Elemental Flux discipline is available for open beta.

- Piercing Thunder is available for open beta.

- Tempest Gale, a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

Other Stuff!


Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document

All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded!

Warpaths

Martial Tradition

- On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

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It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!

[Vhaidara]

Chris, might I suggest you take this time to just make the links for the archetypes say "[Class] Archetypes"

[Tempestfury]

Can't you put the Zealot Archetypes with the Zealot in the OP? And have Mithral Current, and the Zealot/Harbringer disciplines in their own different documents for easy access? Or is that going to be something for Monday? (With another million and one things)

[Ilorin Lorati]

The new theme for the thread.

[PsyBomb]

Keeping it going. I look forward to my next Pharaoh playtest opportunity.

[NineThePuma]

Can't you put the Zealot Archetypes with the Zealot in the OP? And have Mithral Current, and the Zealot/Harbringer disciplines in their own different documents for easy access? Or is that going to be something for Monday? (With another million and one things)

PLEASE do this.

[RedOndjage]

What's the ETA until the PoW fighter archetype? I'm really curious to see what you guys do with the class.

[stack]

Any word on the interaction between the destruction Zealot's area attack and strikes that have area's of their own?

[Ilorin Lorati]

The way it's worded leads me to believe that the area augments in Storm of Steel replace any other area.

[Taveena]

Again, I feel like "Combat Reflexes, but Charisma" is a pretty solid conviction.

[stack]

Again, I feel like "Combat Reflexes, but Charisma" is a pretty solid conviction.

I agree, the MADness really impacted my design choices when building a zealot.

[TerminusEst]

Hey; I mentioned it in the last thread, but I think it got buried w/ no response, etc.

But for the Mystic Archetype, Mandala Adept; is it intended that they get the Nimbus class at level 1 but cannot use it until level 2?

Just seemed weird to get an ability that you cannot use.

[Ironsides]

Saturday I played in AGrinning Cat's playtest with my Fiendbound Marauder (I liked the old name better by the way, Demon-Hand Warlock is a much more AWESOME name for the archetype). I am playing with a Strength focused TWF build with his two spectral Fists/Whips using the Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting feat. I thought this would be an awesome build but it has several pitfalls that has soured me to the build.

Your off-hand weapon only gets half strength bonus from your modifier... I don't know why Paizo wants to gimp a build that already focuses on dex but unless you pay the feat tax of Double Slice you don't get the full bonus. Also since you are gimping dexterity your Reflex Saves are awful.

So you would be better off with doing with a dex build of Weapon Finesse, TWF, and Deadly Agility. You can make up for the lack of strength score with Muleback Cords and going with medium armor. Also this helps with your lackluster Reflex Saves. YMMV but in a trap filled dungeon having a poor Reflex Save and a poor Acrobatics score because of the ACP penalty is a liability.

You can find my build here. Can you guys think of a way to spice things up because I am tempted to retire the character and going with something else. Last 2 sessions have ended with my character lying unconscious on the floor waiting to be either killed or fed a potion (which may be the MAIN reason for my dissatisfaction but still). The first session I was laid up because I couldn't jump across a 10 foot wide pit trap and the second time I should have retreated to drink a potion or two.

Edit: Also you can enchant your Finessable weapons with the Agile enchantment. I think that may be worth a feat.

Edit 2: The Fiendbound Marauder's Fiend's Grip is STILL not considered a Discipline weapon for Eternal Guardian while Cursed Razor and Black Seraph are. Also I like the archetype itself just not where I went with it. I think that Prodigious TWF is has some inherent pitfalls that people might not consider when making a TWF STR build instead of a TWF Dex build.

[The Glyphstone]

So how's that Harbinger artwork coming?

[squiggit]

Also since you are gimping dexterity your Reflex Saves are awful.

You still get int to reflex at 4 with Fiendbound. Plus it's not really an archetype issue, regular Warders tend to struggle with that too since they're encouraged to have crap-all dexterity.

I think it's a shame Fiendbound loses tortoise instead of Fury now.

[ErrantX]

I plan on taking some time to address the last several pages of the previous thread and this one and reorganize the materials tomorrow.

-X

[Dromuthra]

I also took part in the playtest on Saturday, still playing my Ravenlord Harbinger. Notable changes to the harbinger are that I used a martial tradition to grab Golden Lion and a trait to grab Silver Crane, foregoing Shattered Mirror and Cursed Razor. We began this level of the dungeon at level three, which really helped as the Ravenlord archetype really comes online at that point. Being able to use the bird to initiate maneuvers was a godsend compared to the previous two levels, and it being able to initiate Enduring Crane Strike as needed was vital to my survival several times. It was also ruled that my bird, given its 18 intelligence, was able to root through my pouches and force feed me potions while I was unconscious (not sure how another DM would have ruled it), which happened twice that session and is a large part of the reason it wasn't a TPK at the end.

Overall I'm still quite satisfied with the character, though I think that it could stand to lose the good Fort save, considering that at level four they get Int to both it and Reflex saves. It would have been problematic for me at earlier levels to not have the good progression, but I think that the class is powerful enough that it doesn't really need it. I found generally that I almost never wanted my raven initiating my sole counter, Warning Lion's Roar, as it didn't share my skill bonuses. I believe I recall Snowbluff suggesting that the raven be made more familiar-esque; in that regard I'd recommend having it use its master's skills in place of its own. Looking through the other disciplines, many strikes and counters require skill checks, and very few of those are class skills for the raven, and thus are likely to be somewhat lower than necessary. With regards to the bird as a tank - through these last few levels it's felt a bit odd that the bird always had more health than I did. This only stopped being true for level three, but then at level four (when it becomes a magical beast and gains a d10 hit die) it once again surpasses me in health, which feels a bit odd. I don't think that it's necessarily a problem, but I just wanted to comment on it.

And just a couple of rules questions regarding PoW:
1. Can Enduring Crane Strike heal allies outside of line of sight but still within the 30 ft. range?
2. How does Dark Authority interact with the raven? I assume it isn't considered a part of me, and thus doesn't get the benefits, but I'd like clarification on that point.

Build.

[Tempestfury]

I really hope I can be in the play-test this Saturday... testing both the Bushi and the Vigilante, going to be interesting now that I have Sneak-Attack and not Deadly Strikes... I was going to be grabbing the 'Deadly Ambush' Stalker art at level 3, but now I'll just have higher sneak-attack damage... so I suspect I'll actually be doing a lot of damage. Especially as I'll be grabbing both Deadly Agility and the crit enchanting art.

[Vhaidara]

I was in the playtest, though my feedback won't be too useful. I made a Deadly Ambusher Ranger, and showed up late because I had a family dinner. So my character was in a jail cell, without his armor on. I was a Dex based (Fury for Thunder and picked up PTS) using a Halberd and a Spear. It was okay, but I didn't feel any different from a Warlord or a Dervish Defender, but worse. The problem is that the focus of the archetype is on the Animal Companion, and 4 is too late for a class defining ability to come online. It just makes those early levels a very boring slog. Especially when we had a Ravenlord next to me, essentially doing my job (super-pet class) better than me, because he had his pet and I didn't. And he had second level maneuvers.

Oh, and Wights are BS. Negative levels with no saves. On a CR 3. Thanks Cat. Thanks.

I won't be there next week (another family dinner), but the week after that, if Cat is still running these, I am bringing to the fore Turtle Power, a Solhofaat Paladin, to see how founded Cat's concerns about the archetype are.

[Tempestfury]

The problem is that the focus of the archetype is on the Animal Companion, and 4 is too late for a class defining ability to come online. It just makes those early levels a very boring slog.

Now you know the pain of playing an Investigator.

I won't be there next week (another family dinner)

Oh good, space for me! Hope you enjoy the dinner.

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, I'm finishing up the mystic guide, so go ahead and let me know what all needs edited. Please try not to spam the same things over and over, it just makes it harder for me to figure out what needs fixed. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[Vhaidara]

Now you know the pain of playing an Investigator.

Not a comparison. Yes, investigator's main damage source comes online at 4, but they aren't a combat focused class, they're a skill-focused class, and they get a lot of support for that from the start (Inspiration, Alchemy, excellent skill list + lots of points + Int focus). The Ambush Hunter, meanwhile, trades out Favored Enemy (one of the ranger's early damage sources) for Sneak Attack that only works when flanking with an animal companion they don't get until 4th level (and vs flat footed, but the full round recovery is rarely worth it to trigger that)

[CyanEyed]

As the Crimson Countess in Cat's playtest game, lol @ potions.
However, keeping track of all the nonstatic bonuses and penalties on me and my enemies might have given me cancer.

[Vhaidara]

Also, request: Can Monk of the Silver Hand remove the Lawful alignment restriction? Please? The alignment restriction is stupid anyways, since Monk is a much more generic class. I can see leaving it on the paladin, since paladin isn't generic (actually containing abilities related to alignment)

[TheIronGolem]

Also, request: Can Monk of the Silver Hand remove the Lawful alignment restriction? Please? The alignment restriction is stupid anyways, since Monk is a much more generic class. I can see leaving it on the paladin, since paladin isn't generic (actually containing abilities related to alignment)

I kinda wish it had been a Brawler archetype, personally. Still, I must admit that the Monk is in more need of good archetypes.

Related news for anyone using Hero Lab: I've started inputting playtest data into the 3PP Community Pack. It now supports the Harbinger, the Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror disciplines, and most (not all) of the PoWEx feats. I'm hoping to get the Zealot into the next release.

[Lord_Gareth]

I kinda wish it had been a Brawler archetype, personally. Still, I must admit that the Monk is in more need of good archetypes.

Related news for anyone using Hero Lab: I've started inputting playtest data into the 3PP Community Pack. It now supports the Harbinger, the Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror disciplines, and most (not all) of the PoWEx feats. I'm hoping to get the Zealot into the next release.

Dude, that's AWESOME!

However you might want to hold off 'cause a bunch of last-minute changes are being folded into Harbinger's upcoming release >.> Maneuver edits, class feature edits, etc.

[radionausea]

Hey IronGolem, I need to set up a github account to add some files for the playtest too. I've made archetypes for Bushi and Husaar and input (text and requirements only) the Mithral Current, Riven Hour Glass and Piercing Thunder disciplines.

How does one get in on these Saturday play tests? I'd love to play something but I'm on GMT so might be difficult if its an evening game for Americans

[TheIronGolem]

Dude, that's AWESOME!

However you might want to hold off 'cause a bunch of last-minute changes are being folded into Harbinger's upcoming release >.> Maneuver edits, class feature edits, etc.

Yeah, I figured that would be the price of starting early. That's also why I've only done the Harbinger so far; I figure the others are still less "mature" and likely to see more changes that I'd have to redo.

[TheIronGolem]

Hey IronGolem, I need to set up a github account to add some files for the playtest too. I've made archetypes for Bushi and Husaar and input (text and requirements only) the Mithral Current, Riven Hour Glass and Piercing Thunder disciplines.

Nice! The project is here, if you didn't already know that; you'll need to ask ShadowChemosh for access. I'd be happy to coordinate further work with you through the project page.

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, so I'm looking over the archetypes document right now. I'm fielding suggestions for a capstone for the Knight Disciple, a replacement 15th level ability for the Monk of the Silver Fist, and any editing or wording issues that are in the current document.