afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[Gildedragon]

An Athasian who learned of FR would probably prefer to go elsewhere, since they're probably not comfortable with gods as much as most would be due to not having any.

Of course, an Athasian who learned of FR would mostly be happy to not be anywhere near Athas anymore.

A primer from Oerth would probably view the Wall of the Faithless as a rather klunky affair, since many of their deities are quite similar or shared with Toril, and get along just fine without it.

The Athar would hate it completely and be extra hostile to FR powers, I should think, though they apparently don't pay enough attention to Toril to have found out about the Time of Troubles and, thus, Ao, even before he started erasing knowledge of himself.

Eberronians who wandered into the greater planar cosmology would probably be ecstatic at not having to deal with Dolurrh.



Since we've gotten onto the subject of Planar Metropolises and all...

Just what is required for a Planar Metropolis? Both to form in the first place and to prevent it from becoming a front for the Blood War/destroyed if it's accessible to more than one alignment extreme.

Enough high level spellcasters, on both counts.
Firstly enough spellcasters that planar travel is commonplace... Or "naturally" occurring portals. The first is probably the handiest as these artificial interplanar ports can be closed, more if that in a moment.
The answer to the second question is twofold.
The first is that if there is equal interplanar access, the bloodwar is kept as bay same as the bloodwar is kept off the material plane: if the war spills over there a) Good (and probably Law and Chaos) will step in and b) opening a new front will weaken them on another
Second is that any place capable of establishing regular interplanar travel can probably stop any interplanar skirmishes; banishment needs much less power than planar travel.
An addendum to that is that is that if the portals can be closed, trade sanctions can be established (the benefit to artificial portals)
Any planar metropolis will have these two things: planar travel and a strong enough power to keep order

Edit: I think a new thread needs to start up

[Judge_Worm]

How would an Athasian view a trip to the Dreadrealm? Or the Grey Waste?
Speaking of Athas, what stops a power's power from coming from the Inner Planes? I know that the Outer Planes are blocked because of the Grey, but the Elemental planes have a much stronger connection to Athas. Is there something I'm missing here? If so, what?

[Tzardok]

The good old joke about Athas is that the few souls, who through random chance manage to cross the Grey and reach the Outer Planes, say, when getting the first impression of the Lower Planes: "Hmm, looks like home. But there is water!"
About the Inner Planes: Athas has its own set of elemental planes somewhere in the Grey, which may or may not have a connection to the actual Inner Planes and are the direct and indirect scource of all divine magic in Athas. But even if they have a connection to the Inner Planes, this connection would be difficult to use and not that easy to find. Athas is and stays cut off from the greater multiverse and the easiest way of entering and leaving is finding one of the random doors to Sigil (and that should tell you something).

[Judge_Worm]

The good old joke about Athas is that the few souls, who through random chance manage to cross the Grey and reach the Outer Planes, say, when getting the first impression of the Lower Planes: "Hmm, looks like home. But there is water!"
About the Inner Planes: Athas has its own set of elemental planes somewhere in the Grey, which may or may not have a connection to the actual Inner Planes and are the direct and indirect scource of all divine magic in Athas. But even if they have a connection to the Inner Planes, this connection would be difficult to use and not that easy to find. Athas is and stays cut off from the greater multiverse and the easiest way of entering and leaving is finding one of the random doors to Sigil (and that should tell you something).

I can imagine how that would go...

Random Ignorant Prime (RIP): Excuse me mister, where's the bathroom?
Female Dwarf: Third door to the left, berk. Take this key with ya.
RIP: Gees thanks. *unlocks the door with key* Oh dear Pelor what is this place? Pelor? Pelor? *breaks down crying*
Halfling: Still looks fresh.
RIP: Do you have any food, I'm starving and I can't use my magic?
Halfling: I was just about to eat.
RIP: Can I come?
Halfling: That was the plan.

Edit: Does Athas have an Overpower? And what's stopping some nobody power on God Street from finding a way into Athas to cash in on a sure thing? I mean there doesn't seem to be anything preventing a power from granting divine power to Athasiansee from Athas (the sorcerer-kings kinda do that already). And even a lesser power should be strong enough to hold their own against the sorcerer-kings.

[Coidzor]

I think sticking one of your godly tentacles into Athas would be viewed as relatively pointless, since it's just going to get cut off, regardless of whether it survives on its own after being severed.

And if one isn't at the stage of godhood where one is many fingers in several different spheres, then being trapped in Athas is, well, being trapped in Athas.

[Mr Adventurer]

Could be a pretty epic motivation to develop in the mid to late levels, though, as an Athasian who's learned about the Great Wheel: escape from Athas, achieve divinity, then come back and start taking names, fix up the place to your liking.

[Mr Adventurer]

A question: does the Githyanki lich-queen still consume those githyanki who become high enough level that they could begin to threaten her power? If so, do we know what mechanism she uses to track this data?

Like, how does she (or her administration) know if for example a given soldier is about to hit 16th level?

[Tzardok]

Could be a pretty epic motivation to develop in the mid to late levels, though, as an Athasian who's learned about the Great Wheel: escape from Athas, achieve divinity, then come back and start taking names, fix up the place to your liking.

Do powers function in Athas, I mean, can they survive there?

[Clistenes]

Question: Is there a Lawful Good counterpart to the God Street in Dis? (I specifically say "Lawful Good" and not just "Good" because I think having an assigned place for new deities's tiny realms is a very Lawful trait).

[Jowgen]

What is known about the orgin/early years of Levistus, Lord of the Fifth? There is a bunch of stuff that calls his nature as a being of Law into question, and I'm wondering if there is any truth to that.

Was he one of Asmodeus' orignal posse? Maybe a fallen Eladrin? Is there nothing on him at all? Basically, anything dating to before his murder of the Asmode-wife is of interest.

[Coidzor]

Are any of Asmodeus's original crew (or at least oldest since he became King of Hell) still around and on good terms with him or still working for him instead of eaten, banished, or cursed for betraying him?

With his wife gone, who is his oldest and most loyal servant?

Did his deceased wife likely have an inkling of what Asmodeus's real deal was, assuming she wasn't actually just an aspect of him?

What planar factions would be most likely to discover alternate cosmologies or primes like Eberron or Dragonlance and take an interest in them?

[Tzardok]

Are any of Asmodeus's original crew (or at least oldest since he became King of Hell) still around and on good terms with him or still working for him instead of eaten, banished, or cursed for betraying him?

What planar factions would be most likely to discover alternate cosmologies or primes like Eberron or Dragonlance and take an interest in them?

Dispater, Mephisto, Belial, Zariel (disposed) and most likely Levistus fell together with Asmodeus. How many of them are "on good terms" is questionable.

At least Dragonlance is known and documented by people in the Planes. No need to discover it.

[Gildedragon]

Eberron is bound to be of interest to the athar with its funny cleric rules.

[Judge_Worm]

With his wife gone, who is his oldest and most loyal servant?

Oldest? Probably Levistus.
Most loyal? Probably some low level prime.
Oldest and Most Loyal? Probably Bel or Glasya.

Edit: I felt the need to clarify. Loyalty does not run strong in the Hells, obediance, duty and fear is what keeps the Hells running smoothly. They are lawful, but do not mistake taking orders as being loyal. Any duke would gladly turn on Asmodeus if the opportunity presented itself. But taking on Asmodeus is like fighting Kord bare handed, if Kord had nukes.

[Clistenes]

We know that deities' ability to grant spells to their priests is limited to crystal spheres where they have a good amount of worshippers, same as their Portfolio Sense.

We know that deities' ability to grant spells is impaired in Planes that are far away from their own Home Plane.

But, how does their Portfolio Sense work in the Planes? If, say Kord, wants to use his Portfolio Sense to perceive something in Baator, can he do it?

[Jowgen]

Oldest? Probably Levistus.

What makes you say that? From what I've been able to gather, he isn't mentioned prior to his murder of the Asmo-wife.

[DrKerosene]

Is there any source of the creation of an Elder Brain?

I've not found anything clear on the subject, but I have a theory that the Elder Brain is an unrelated psionic creature that has a somewhat symbiotic relationship with Illithid communities (like how some other creatures live near Mindflayers to feed off of psionic energy in the area). Though I could believe it's the "final form" of a Neothelid that reached critical mass, and has to shed the body.

[Gildedragon]

When a shadowcraft mage emulates Miracle, and uses the very powerful request option... what is answering?

[Fable Wright]

Is there any source of the creation of an Elder Brain?

I've not found anything clear on the subject, but I have a theory that the Elder Brain is an unrelated psionic creature that has a somewhat symbiotic relationship with Illithid communities (like how some other creatures live near Mindflayers to feed off of psionic energy in the area). Though I could believe it's the "final form" of a Neothelid that reached critical mass, and has to shed the body.

Canonically, IIRC, they cannot be created at the moment. All the Elder Brains came directly from the Illithid's source, wherever that is. They might be an unrelated symbiote, which explains their inability to reproduce. They're probably not a neothelid, as presumably, one would have been created by now.

When a shadowcraft mage emulates Miracle, and uses the very powerful request option... what is answering?

The Dreamheart, of course. It's the source of the imagination that desires the request, and is infinite in power.

Though canonically, the answer is just *shrug*.

[unseenmage]

Is there any source of the creation of an Elder Brain?

I've not found anything clear on the subject, but I have a theory that the Elder Brain is an unrelated psionic creature that has a somewhat symbiotic relationship with Illithid communities (like how some other creatures live near Mindflayers to feed off of psionic energy in the area). Though I could believe it's the "final form" of a Neothelid that reached critical mass, and has to shed the body.

IIRC the book of aberrations, Lords of Madness?, has some text that describes Elder Brains as giant amalgamations of many many Illithid brains.

One presumes thatsthats how you make them. Just start alchemically gluing illithid brains together.

I'd also check Dragon mag illithid articles on the subject. Coulda swore I remember reading about how they're made. It has just been a verg long time and i have mostly forgotten.

[Mr Adventurer]

Doesn't the same book also say that Neothelids are what happens when a Mind Flayer tadpole doesn't implant, but survives for a long time without a host?

[unseenmage]

Doesn't the same book also say that Neothelids are what happens when a Mind Flayer tadpole doesn't implant, but survives for a long time without a host?

I believe so, yes.

Always wanted to play an awakened illithid larvae thrallherd from infancy.

Somehow research a ritual so it could keep its own mind when it finally either A) went through cerebremorphosis (probably into a half-illithid half-boss-monster), or B) grew into a larger larvae then later a cerebrelith.

[DrKerosene]

IIRC the book of aberrations, Lords of Madness?, has some text that describes Elder Brains as giant amalgamations of many many Illithid brains.

One presumes thatsthats how you make them. Just start alchemically gluing illithid brains together.

I'm pretty sure that's actually the answer from the Illithiad. Such is mentioned in this previous topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Elder-Brains. Mimir.net has an article called "Shame of the Baatezu" that suggests that a similar method created Ilsensine.

I'd also check Dragon mag illithid articles on the subject. Coulda swore I remember reading about how they're made. It has just been a verg long time and i have mostly forgotten.

I'm pretty sure what I have access to (some 3.X) just covers gear, and a variant casting system.


I suppose I was wondering if there's been any official suggestions about if Elder Brains really are unrelated to Mindflayers.

It's "cleaner" to keep them related in the Life-Cycle, but I do not have access to a lot of material and I can believe there are "facts" in creature entries (abilities, environment, etc) that could suggest something else (like the parasite/symbiotic relationship). I just didn't want to go into an essay about possible connections/conspiracies.

[Mr Adventurer]

I thought Elder Brains were a collection of Mind Flayer brains added after the flayers' bodies perished?

[Malimar]

I thought Elder Brains were a collection of Mind Flayer brains added after the flayers' bodies perished?

I distinctly remember a line from somewhere -- probably Lords of Madness -- saying that the Mind Flayers are led to think that their brains (& minds & personalities & so on) get added to the Elder Brain after they die, but in reality the Elder Brain just eats them and they cease to exist.

[Tzardok]

IIRC LoM said that Elder Brains absorb the brain and the knowledge of the dead illithids, but the illithids believe erroneously their personality also would become part of it. But that doesn't tell us whether the Elder Brain is created from illithid brains or not.

[Evolved Shrimp]

IIRC LoM said that Elder Brains absorb the brain and the knowledge of the dead illithids, but the illithids believe erroneously their personality also would become part of it. But that doesn't tell us whether the Elder Brain is created from illithid brains or not.

LoM describes elder brains on page 65, and Tzardok’s recollection is correct: Elder brains consume brains of deceased mind flayers, gaining all their knowledge. Mind flayers believe that their personality survives as part of the elder brain, but that is incorrect.

LoM also states “How an elder brain comes to be is unknown.” So while it is possible that they arise from fused mind flayer brains or have arrived from the same place as the other mind flayers, that is just speculation.

(The whole arrangement with elder brains and mind flayer communities reminds me most of an aboleth and its thralls. So here’s a different kind of speculation: Elder brains are closely related to aboleths – as demonstrated, for example, in their shared ability to preserve knowledge forever and accumulate it without limit – and in this relation lies the source of the great enmity between aboleths and mind flayers.)

Doesn't the same book also say that Neothelids are what happens when a Mind Flayer tadpole doesn't implant, but survives for a long time without a host?

Yes, this is discussed on page 67. A neothelid can develop when a mind flayer community collapses and no longer feeds the tadpoles and the elder brain in their communal pool. In that case, tadpoles become cannibalistic until the last survivor eventually leaves the pool in search of food. When it consumes an intelligent being, it awakens in the same manner as an implanted tadpole and becomes psychic.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, this is discussed on page 67. A neothelid can develop when a mind flayer community collapses and no longer feeds the tadpoles and the elder brain in their communal pool. In that case, tadpoles become cannibalistic until the last survivor eventually leaves the pool in search of food. When it consumes an intelligent being, it awakens in the same manner as an implanted tadpole and becomes psychic.

That's totally metal.

[Tzardok]

That's totally metal.

And the illithids greatest taboo. They never even consider not implanting a tadpole, they don't think about neothelids and hunt them down, should they have the opportunity, and if you mention them while being a guest...

[Fable Wright]

And the illithids greatest taboo. They never even consider not implanting a tadpole, they don't think about neothelids and hunt them down, should they have the opportunity, and if you mention them while being a guest...

If the illithids are having you over as a guest, then you've got enough defenses up that they can't possibly harm you anyways. The worst they could do is cordially request that you never show up again.