Centaurs don't make no sense

[Flickerdart]

A centaur has two redundant sets of every organ. This is to enable emergency separation between the halves a la the Enterprise, at which point the human half is well advised to have access to flight magic.

[Mono Vertigo]

Would we get anywhere if we looked at a praying mantis' anatomy, one of the closest things IRL to a centauroid? Probably not, since they're insects and centaurs are generally meant to be mammals...

[description of sci-fi centaur anatomy]

Thank you, my good sir, for giving me flashbacks of some specific parts of Homestuck and simultaneously making me want to get radically drunk tonight.
Gorram, there's not enough alcohol in this house to make me forget I read this.

[Ashtagon]

Centaurs are aberrations. they are in fact two separate organisms, a human-like half and a horse-like half, living in close symbiosis. The human-like portion trails off at the base into a "genital tendril" than merges deep within the horse half, enabling both organisms' sperm and ova to meet when they procreate in the usual (horse-like) manner.

Careful examination of the "waist" area will reveals subtle "rip" where the two halves meet, which is constantly oozing a brownish ichor. Friendly centaurs go to great pains to hide this, usually using human clothing and "belts". Toward the sides of this rip are two openings which allow the horse half to breathe. In private, the centaur can open these wider to allow feeding in greater quantities than the human mouth alone could accommodate. Where this waist-mouth can't be fed due to social mores, the centaur's human half is able to "feed" the horse portion through the "nutritional tendril", a sister organ to the genital tendril.

[daremetoidareyo]

Actually, now that you brought up mantises, Perhaps there are spiracles on the legs or trunk of the horse to help draw in oxygen, supplementing the air drawn in through the nose and mouth. Unlike an insect, they would need some sort of filtration system and porous membrane. I would posit that they have an adaptive hemoglobin that is capable of carrying more oxygen. These spiracles would necessitate some sort of diaphragm analogs to draw the air in, which would increase the caloric needs of the beast at least a little.


Although, to be fair, the human face is omnivorous, and the favorite food of centaurs is calorie rich (wine and mead). This leads one to believe that centaurs, as a race, have entire swaths of meadow under protection as fodder for their extensive bee colonies. Perhaps they seed this meadow with grapes (for wine). Further, the meat part of the diet is where the real calorie rich fuels can be obtained: Centaurs would love to eat liver, heart, and especially the fat of killed fauna. The raw protein and fats could supplement the fueling needs of the creature, so long as the centaur has some relatively potent insulin to both maintain blood sugar levels steadily.

Spoiler: Cultural dietary adaptations for insulin regulation

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Some dietary adaptation could definitely help, as
1.) mucilaginous polysaccharides gums that slow the digestion and absorption of sugary foods can be regularly eaten, (usually cactus plant foods, but perhaps the local environment has analogs to prickly pear, millet, chia seeds, and nopales).
2.) Soluble fibers, tannins (super high in grapes and wine) and inulin in one group of traditional foods (including mesquite bean pods, acorns and tepary beans) helps reduce blood sugar levels, slow sugar absorption rates, and improve insulin production and sensitivity.

Further, this is all information known to cultural ethnobotanists who deal with diabetes issues for traditional peoples in "feast or famine environments" (like a desert) where sugar regulation needs to be spread across long spans of time with low caloric intake. The diabetes issues comes from western diets which are super high in sugars that interact poorly with these semi-genetic sugar-storing biological tendencies.

The question becomes, how much intestine do these things have. They obviously have a need for slow release sugar, a quality that can be preserved by consumption of tannins, but in order to digest the most tannin filled substance of them all (tree leaves) you need a long spool of intestines for bacteria to digest the cellulose in order to extract the energy. There are some cases of termites having their genetic code switched with these bacteria by what is conjectured to have been a phage, so that the termites themselves can digest wood pulp with no microbiological symbiosis with bacteria, but this is a bit rare. The problem with a long spool of intestine like this is that there needs to be some room for the additional oxygenation structures in the body of this creature.

[Segev]

When I've had to ponder this in the past, I've determined that centaurs probably have both sets of lungs, and a strange respiratory pattern wherein they first fill the human set, and the exhalation from that fills the equine set. The human set is actually far less efficient than human lungs, being primarily a secondary "bellows" to store and push air into the primary equine set. The equine set is on a slower breathing cycle, normally, and exhales directly out when it deflates. The limited oxygen-harvesting capability of the human set enables them to comfortably exhale from the equine set for a longer period; this also gives them a reputation as being "long-winded," as they can often speak or hold a note far longer than could a human without feeling the lack of air.

When exerting themselves to the fullest, they actually engage in an almost interior-circular-breathing cycle, with a similar structure to what humans have to separate the esophagus from the airway allowing them to exhale from the equine lungs while holding air in the human lungs. This keeps the brain oxygenated while the cycling air from the lower set proceeds, though it has the side effect of requiring rapid breathing thereafter to refil them quickly. For this reason, despite their tremendous burst-speeds and their excellent long-term endurance at higher pace than human norm, centaurs actually have less peak endurance than do humans or horses: both can last longer at a run/gallop/full exertion than can a centaur. Oddly, centaurs do have the ability to hold their breath for longer, making them better underwater swimmers (albeit not at all otherwise adapted for it).

[Mr Beer]

Are we adding the trio of privates as well?

Oh, and Mr Beer, you've got me wondering on which set/sets of equipment are fertile on a centaur, is that explained?

Procreation is simultaneously an important plot point (it falls on a central character's shoulders) and so potentially complex that I can't recall the exact details. IIRC it involves an egg, something like a chicken's, that spends time in both vaginas at some point, and also that a (female) centaur could theoretically fertilise herself.

I don't believe that humans and centaurs can crossbreed, at least not under normal circumstances. Though they can sure practice.

[Flickerdart]

They obviously have a need for slow release sugar, a quality that can be preserved by consumption of tannins, but in order to digest the most tannin filled substance of them all (tree leaves) you need a long spool of intestines for bacteria to digest the cellulose in order to extract the energy.

Fortunately, centaurs have a lot of extra space in their bodies for just that sort of thing!

[Mr Beer]

And which set of mammaries are used for their infants.

Human ones I think, don't remember.

[Mr. Mask]

[Genital tendrils, brown ichor]

I hate everything! Maglubiyet, take responsibility!

[Maglubiyet]

horrifying unspeakable abominations

Holy...

I hate everything! Maglubiyet, take responsibility!

Words fail me...going to go watch kitten videos for a few dozen hours to scrub my brain.

[Mr. Mask]

[Vwulf DeMarcus]

Human ones I think, don't remember.

Though it's been a while since I've read all three books, I don't believe it's stated. However, you're probably right. I (seem to) remember something about castes, but I don't know where the book that describes that is. I'll look.

EDIT: Found it! Essentially, a child can have between 1 and 4 parents, and the eggs have to be fertilized twice. I can go into more detail via PM if necessary, or, if you have the books, look in the back of the 2nd one, named Wizard.

[Mr. Mask]

Though it's been a while since I've read all three books, I don't believe it's stated. However, you're probably right. I (seem to) remember something about castes, but I don't know where the book that describes that is. I'll look.

EDIT: Found it! Essentially, a child can have between 1 and 4 parents, and the eggs have to be fertilized twice. I can go into more detail via PM if necessary, or, if you have the books, look in the back of the 2nd one, named Wizard.

Spoiler

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2spooky4me 2spooky4me 2spooky4me 2spooky4me 2spooky4me !!

[OracleofWuffing]

A long time ago (so, like, don't necromance it), there was a thread about Owlbears that spun out into other creatures, and someone walked in with diagrams of organs that were applicable to centaurs. But I believe Mr Beer has just kinda blasted straight through those diagrams and the next five planets.

[Ashtagon]

I hate everything! Maglubiyet, take responsibility!

Holy...

Words fail me...going to go watch kitten videos for a few dozen hours to scrub my brain.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age. -- Lovecraft

I took ranks in Craft (disturbing image).

[LudicSavant]

rather than whatever the fantasy equivalent of hard sci-fi is.

There really ought to be a term for that to describe the works of people like Brandon Sanderson.

[Segev]

There really ought to be a term for that to describe the works of people like Brandon Sanderson.

TV Tropes calls it Magic A is Magic A.

[Keltest]

TV Tropes calls it Magic A is Magic A.

You monster. There goes the rest of my day.

[Segev]

You monster. There goes the rest of my day.

Bwah. ha. Ha.

[LudicSavant]

TV Tropes calls it Magic A is Magic A.

I do not think that term is sufficient.

[Segev]

I do not think that term is sufficient.

How not? Please elaborate; I enjoy this topic. :)

[LudicSavant]

How not? Please elaborate; I enjoy this topic. :)

For one thing, it is simply asking for basic standards of good writing rather than more specifically identifying a certain level of *hardness* to the speculative fantasy fiction. The term is not a fantasy analogue to the term "hard science fiction."

[Segev]

Eh, I am not sure Brandon Sanderson's works are "hard fantasy" in the sense meant by "hard sci-fi." "Hard sci-fi" is closer to speculative fiction than anything else. It seeks to take existing theories and elaborate on them in practice. It tends to only permit technological advances which overcome current physical limitations in our manufacturing processes, or which require minor innovations to resolve a problem. It is distinct from soft sci-fi in that it doesn't permit speculating on the nature of underlying physical law, nor hypothesizing entirely new fields of scientific research, nor anything, well, fantastical.

It is more akin to "low fantasy" than anything else, based on the notion that the breaks from reality are few and/or far between.

Brandon Sanderson does pretty high fantasy; he just sets up consistent magical laws of HOW it works. Hard sci-fi would require very rigorous ties to what we know is true; "hard fantasy" would require some means of demonstrating where the magic links into underlying physical laws. And generally without resorting to "a God did it."

(Hard sci-fi dodges that requirement a little bit by saying it's starting with real-world known physics. Hard fantasy could presumably do something similar, but would very quickly look like "alien science made our magic.")

[Seharvepernfan]

This bugged me to, so I changed centaurs to be a race of lycanthropes. They have a tall, strong humanoid form that basically looks like a big muscular half-elf, then a horse form (for blending into the wilds and long travel) and a hybrid battle form (large size, humanoid weapons, fast speed).

[Segev]

"Centaur" would be a perfectly viable War Form for a Lunar Exalt with a Horse as his spirit form.

[Freelance GM]

What exactly is in the human torso part of a centaur?

I was just wondering about this. I came to this thread looking for answers. Instead, I only found more questions.

Well, more questions and some squicky mental images.

A long time ago someone walked in with diagrams of organs that were applicable to centaurs.

I looked at the diagram, and okay, cool, but if the Centaur's heart and lungs were that much bigger, wouldn't it have a different ribcage structure? Then there's also the kind of Uncanny Valley thought that his/her pectoral muscles would probably start at the collarbone and end where the human navel would/should be.

I almost feel like Centaurs would be more anatomically plausible if they were depicted as human torsos on miniature horses. But that wouldn't be nearly as cool.

[Segev]

Hm. I'm picturing the human skeleton going down to the pelvic bone, which rests roughly where the horse's neck intersects the body on a horse. The spine of the human extends to the spine of the horse, instead of to a tailbone, and the human torso has roughly the same mobility at the hips/waist as a horse's neck would. I believe this means that centaurs can actually bend pretty far forward, and may have the back muscles to support their human-part bodies at any of those angles.

I'm told horses can be coaxed into laying down, and that most of the trouble with it is skittishness at the vulnerability of the position (being, largely, prey animals), rather than physical discomfort. I know I've seen horses roll over on their backs occasionally. Add the ability of the human torso to lean forward to parallel with the equine back, and that can allow centaurs to rest in just about any position the human body might. They may, if they're laying bellies-down, need a fainting-couch-like bed to rest their torso on comfortably. Or they might just lay all the way forward, with only a narrow gap between where the equine chest touches down and the human waist begins.

I tend to assume they have the internal parts appropriate to their external parts, with the redundancies being used to feed one another to make up for any deficiencies due to missing parts (in particular airways being much longer coming from the human head).

[JeenLeen]

The thread that inspired this thread had me thinking about centaurs. I pictured a modified one like:

The human head contains the brain and mouth, like a normal human.
The human torso contains very large lungs, a stomach, and a heart.
The horse body contains the rest of the internal organs, including a larger stomach and the primary heart. The actual digestion of food happens in this part of the body.

Arms are longer (and perhaps with three joints, or at least double-jointed) to allow more flexibility, and things like easier hygiene, cleaning, and reaching into backpacks. Legs are probably more flexible as well to facilitate movement horses have some difficulty with.

I'm not a biology specialist by any means, but the above seemed a reasonable biology.

[Maglubiyet]

I think this video clears up a lot of questions about centaur biology.

In particular, it answers whether they can swing on swings. Plus it gives a few details about their courtship rituals.

[Jay R]

If you don't like centaurs, stick with creatures that make more intuitive sense, like chimeras, gryphons, hippogriffs, etc. If you don't draw the line somewhere, you'll wind up with ridiculous creatures like Kardashians.