Page 5....err..48

[the_tick_rules]

it's unit production rules are straight from a computer game.

[DogBrain]

Finally, Stanley appears (to me) to exhibit a quality of self-direction that is unique in his world. I've discussed that in exhaustive detail in other threads so I won't belabor the point here.

To support your point, Stanley is also trying to "game the game". Instead of using sound tactics or strategies, he's relying on exploits (Arkenhammer) and cheats (Parson). Likewise, he's a tyrant and a bully with no regard for the morale nor well-being of his units.

[DogBrain]

If Erfworld mechanics includes something like a "charisma" bonus for leaders, then Stanley's selection policy makes sense -- "handsome and dashing" is a merit-based criterion. If my inference (Stanley promotes existing troops rather than buys new warlords because the latter takes more time than he can spare) and my admitted out-and-out guess (warlords produced by the former route are "green") are correct, then Stanley needs to get bonuses wherever he can find them.

Stanley is what I call a "rules gamer". That's the dimwit who stares at me aghast and says "How could you have beaten me!?!?!? I had WAY higher bonuses in my units than you did!!!" He's someone who mistakenly thinks that numbers mean everything and intelligent play is irrelevant.

[SteveMB]

To support your point, Stanley is also trying to "game the game". Instead of using sound tactics or strategies, he's relying on exploits (Arkenhammer) and cheats (Parson). Likewise, he's a tyrant and a bully with no regard for the morale nor well-being of his units.

Stanley is what I call a "rules gamer". That's the dimwit who stares at me aghast and says "How could you have beaten me!?!?!? I had WAY higher bonuses in my units than you did!!!" He's someone who mistakenly thinks that numbers mean everything and intelligent play is irrelevant.

That fits the idea that Stanley is the avatar and the others are game AIs -- the former can squander units relentlessly (unless the game has mechanics for "mutiny" if you go too far) until he digs himself into a hole he can't get out of (what looks like the situation as the story begins); the latter might be programmed with a more restrained policy.

Perhaps Wanda is serving as a channel for the game's "advisor/help" function...?

[LordVader]

Yes. Specifically, one such as Civilization or Alpha Centauri. Units are created, have an upkeep, can move around, etc.

[LordVader]

It is definitely Heroes of Might and Magic.
Why?
1: Towns that produce units
2: Units pop fully formed
3: Units require some kind of a leader to fight
4: Units are formed into stacks.
Heroes III, I salute you. You were and are one of the best games I have ever played. LONG LIVE HEROES III!

[Khendroc]

I was thinking more heroes of might and magic, what with the warlord units that give bonuses to their troops.

[Dunklezahn]

I honestly can think of about 4 games that perfectly fit those same criteria. But we really don’t have a whole lot of details. I do like the guessing though.

[shakes019]

I doubt that the writers have a specific game in mind, or that if they do, they would every identify it. Personally, I hope that they don't.

[Scientivore]

To support your point, Stanley is also trying to "game the game". Instead of using sound tactics or strategies, he's relying on exploits (Arkenhammer) and cheats (Parson). Likewise, he's a tyrant and a bully with no regard for the morale nor well-being of his units.

Right, Gobwin Knob's problem in a nutshell is that Stanley is merely self-directed. He hasn't gone the next step and taken responsibility for a greater whole. If it weren't for Ansom getting the treasury (because it's his last city) if/when he ducks out, he'd not have even bothered with summoning Parson.

[factotum]

Its more for legal reasons I think. If you have little restrictions (elder scrolls series) then you could kill the children.

I think the rules for that might differ depending where you are. For example, the CRPGs Fallout and Fallout 2 both had children in them who would do stuff like picking your pocket--however, these were removed from the European release, presumably due to some problem with local laws. They remained in the original US version AFAIK, though.

[Ben_the_dragon]

as stated in the strip, there are two ways to make a warlord. taking a regular unit and imporving their rank. or building one in a city. i htink here is where you find the difference between nobility and regular units.

the tool was rased to his posistion, he wasn't made for it, but Ansom on the other hand was "bread" it was his function since he popped. and i think thats why he has a problem with the tool......off to work i go

[WhiteNoise]

I see erfworld as being more a game given life than a game, the Overlords who rule their cities/factions with absolute authority and play their overarching games are personifications of the roles people take in such games,

Then the life of the world starts giving other things like people personalities etc,
See thats the sting in the tail for parson i reckon, he'll expect well its a game so when win or loose its over thats it,
Thats when Erfworld goes no this is life it dosnt just end at the credits there is always more,,,,,
Ever played a game or watched a film and thought i wish i could see what happens next cause i bet it would be cool, My hope and take is that what erfworld's going to turn out like as the well the things you never worried about, (like parson's toliet break, its something that happens on erf but in games/films its rarely mentioned)

[jindra34]

And how does the Magic Kingdom then work? Why would anyone create a caster for their city, then donate them to the Magic Kingdom?

Casters are probably trained in the magic kingdom...

[gooddragon1]

definitely heroes of might and magic (EDIT:brainfart) with a difference so far - units can become heroes, this is not entirely unusual since in some of the more recent ones it looks that way. However, it seems that movement of troops can occur without heroes (the dwagons attacking jillian). I wonder however on a tangent. If their magic is strong enough to affect our world even though we created theirs (could however be an alternate universe), is it possible to wish for something via a spell and have it carry over to ours? Would be interesting if wishing is possible.

[DogBrain]

it's unit production rules are straight from a computer game.

No, they're straight from board games that are older than computer games.

[Loyal2NES]

Erfworld's starting to sound a bit like Civilization...

I was thinking the same exact thing...

I'd like to see Parson's reaction if he were to learn that food, production, and income for the whole capital are all handled by a select 10-20 individuals. ...Probably boot up the Civilopedia and learn everything from there.

Regarding the Warlord Benefits thing, in Civ III, winning a battle with an Elite unit could produce a Great Leader, who could then form an Army. Units could be stacked into that army (Up to three, or four if you've built the Pentagon).

Ordinarily, if two units fight, they fight to the death unless (a) One unit was mounted or otherwise had a movement bonus that the other lacked (And could thus retreat if he was about to die), or (b) the unit was part of an army which still had other units in it (So the other unit(s) could fight, and the wounded unit(s) could heal later if the army itself survived).

...This reminds me of two other thoughts on battle:

1) How does Cavalry function?

2) What's the difference between a Warlord and Chief Warlord?

Let's think; There are, thus far, four ranks of leadership: Commander, Warlord, Chief Warlord, and Overlord.

[Commander]s, by the sound of it, are below [Warlord]s but still fill the requirements for "Leadership". Perhaps the only utility difference between the two is how many Stacks each can control, or perhaps the magnitude or effect of "Leadership" benefits. Jillian could be either, but is probably a full Warlord judging by her mount and equipment. Whatshisface, here, likely is just a Commander. Both needed to be with their Stack to command them.

Also: Stanley said that his Uncroaked Warlords could still lead troops. Perhaps reanimated Warlords are downgraded to Commander status, or have some other penalty that living leaders lack? Could someone else offer input?

A Chief Warlord is obviously higher than both. Parson noted that his being a CW meant that his Leadership bonus applied to every friendly in his capital. More generally, this seems to imply that:

(a) A Chief Warlord can direct troops remotely, else he would only be able to direct a few groups in a small area, while the rest fend for themselves.
(b) A Chief Warlord can direct any troops in his "zone". This "zone" could mean wherever the CW is making his battlefield, but is probably limited to towns, capitals, and other establishments. i.e., Parson outside of Gobwin Knob is no more capable than Jillian.

The Overlord, in terms of power, is probably equivalant to the player sitting at the keyboard. He can direct any troops under his banner, can send production orders to all towns under his control, and is fully aware of the status of any of his troops at a given time. Stanley is Gobwin Knob's Overlord. I'm guessing Ansom is either a Chief Warlord (Since he can obviously lead a large number of troops) or an Overlord (Because he arranged for diplomacy options).

[/Theorycraft]Of course, this is just my thought. Feel free to offer your own.

Furthermore, I must find a way to use "Sure, that's useful--Like knowing the exact weight and speed of the rhino that's charging you," in real life sometime.

[SteveMB]

Let's think; There are, thus far, four ranks of leadership: Commander, Warlord, Chief Warlord, and Overlord.

According to Parson's Klog description, "commander" and "warlord" are both terms for a leader. It's not indicated how, if at all, the two terms differ in meaning.

Also: Stanley said that his Uncroaked Warlords could still lead troops. Perhaps reanimated Warlords are downgraded to Commander status, or have some other penalty that living leaders lack? Could someone else offer input?

The statement that uncroaked leaders can follow "simple orders" (emphasis added) would seem to imply a degradation in ability, but the details are unclear. One thing we do know is that the uncroaked deteriorate (presumably reflected in game-mechanics terms as "automatically disbanded after X turns").

[Calemyr]

I read it as a Commander commands a unit, a Warlord commands a group of units, and the Chief Warlord commands the Warlords, while the Overlord commands the Chief Warlord as well as makes decisions of other natures, such as resource allocation and mission objectives. For example, a warlord can manage the units in a particular theater of combat, while the commanders worry about the performance of their own unit and the chief warlord worries about all theaters at the same time. In this upcoming battle, the difference will seem minimal, but in a conflict between two large forces, these distinctions may become very visible.

As for the uncroaked warlords, I believe it was meant to imply that they could indeed handle several units at a time, but that without freewill, they do not actually think per say, and so are not intuitive or reactive enough to handle complicated tasks that are not first broken down for them. On the other hand, I imagine uncroaked warlords do not suffer from morale effects, nor are they inclined to rebel.

[Ultimatum479]

If Erfworld mechanics includes something like a "charisma" bonus for leaders, then Stanley's selection policy makes sense -- "handsome and dashing" is a merit-based criterion.

Doubtful. Wanda knows Erfworld's mechanics in and out, it'd appear, so she wouldn't be upset with his decisions were that a sensible selection factor.

To support your point, Stanley is also trying to "game the game". Instead of using sound tactics or strategies, he's relying on exploits (Arkenhammer) and cheats (Parson). Likewise, he's a tyrant and a bully with no regard for the morale nor well-being of his units.

Wanda had to convince him about the summoning of Parson, and Ansom's tried to use the Arkenpliers too. Of course, that could always just mean that Ansom is a player too and Vinny is his equivalent of Wanda. Perhaps Ansom being a player avatar gives his player OoC reasons to hate Stanley, which is why Vinny doesn't quite understand his reasons for the upcoming battle.

[SteveMB]

Doubtful. Wanda knows Erfworld's mechanics in and out, it'd appear, so she wouldn't be upset with his decisions were that a sensible selection factor.

Actually, both could be right within their respective points of view -- Stanley's approach could be the best of the set of bad options available "inside the box" (i.e. raising warlords in one of the two standard ways described in Parson's Klog entry); Wanda was looking outside the box for a better solution.

Wanda had to convince him about the summoning of Parson, and Ansom's tried to use the Arkenpliers too. Of course, that could always just mean that Ansom is a player too and Vinny is his equivalent of Wanda. Perhaps Ansom being a player avatar gives his player OoC reasons to hate Stanley, which is why Vinny doesn't quite understand his reasons for the upcoming battle.

Could be. As I noted on another thread, the question of whether or not some charactes are "really" player avatars may be unanswerable, or even meaningless, based on evidence internal to Erfworld.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Creation of leader units. That would explain the significant cost of the scroll for summoning Parson -- it represents a 3rd way to create a leader unit. Substituting HUGE amounts of money but not needing an existing unit or the time needed to build one.

RE: Stanley the "Played". Thanks for pointing that out, it actually explains a few things to me. I'm reminded of an TBS/RTT (turn-based strategy, real-time tactics) hybrid I played once. Hero-type units could find and equip 2 items, and the AI was really bad about how it distributed/used the items it found. You'd find a warrior-hero equipped with a caster-hero staff and such.

This might explain why Stanley is "attuned" to his Arkentool but Ansom isn't. It's the equivalent of an AI not knowing how to properly use the item. It might also give us a hint on how many major kingdoms are out there (4 Arkentools = 4 factions the 'player' could have chosen to start as).

RE: Magic Kingdom. Wish I could remember the name of that TBS/RTT game right now, because it had something similar. The basic idea was that there were "unaligned" minor powers that you could buy mercenaries and items from -- and under the right circumstances, conquer/ally with.

This might also explain the preponderance of elvish races -- they may represent villages that started out unaligned but the players or AI can win them over.

[K2]

I wonder if there is a unit cap, that would make alliances far more important.

[Doshi]

Regarding the nature of Commanders, Wanda is a Commander. Stanley addresses her by that title on page 17, when she casts the 'Tron' summoning of Parson.
Regarding the question of which characters might really be Avatars of a Player, I suspect that the Players of the Game take the roles of Royal Overlords. (King Slately and Charlie are, I think the current leading candidates to be controlled by Players) Anson and Jillian are, I suspect, characters that could potentially be taken over by a Player, if they became Overlords, but I think for the moment they retain their autonomy. (The fact that Anson and Jillian's basic personalities may have been designed to allow a Player to take them over may explain why they both seem somewhat weak willed. Jillian is indecisive and may be involved in a BSDM relationship with Wanda. Anson reacts fairly weakly to both Jillian and Vinny.) Perhaps the reason why Jillian is pretending not to be a Royal is precisely because she fears that she could be taken over by a Player? Jillian may have originally been one of the Royals of the Croatan tribe, the same tribe as Wanda. I suspect Wanda may have become aware of the rules involving Royals during the destruction of the Croatan. If I'm right, and Wanda knows Royal Overlords can be controlled by Players, that may be the main reason why she has allied herself with Stanley, who is not a Royal. Wanda may even have played a major role in Stanley's rise to power, precisely because she wanted to create a non Royal Overlord.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I loved this page, and the culture shock that Parson is feeling. It was utterly delightful.

Thank you, Rob!

Hmm

[Runolfr]

So, you are just born..as an adult....

No, you are not "born". You "pop".

[Harr]

It is a BAD idea to mix the Klogs with the story like you're doing.

The Klogs were fine as what they started out as: a bonus where Parson jots down the stuff he learns about the way Erfworld functions.

So stuff like units are born grown up, is fine, and interesting, and cool, and awesome to have as a bonus. But it's stuff you can lift OUT of the comic and the story would still be coherent with just the drawn pages. It's separate.

When you go beyond that and actually insert Parson's thoughts about the current battles and the storyline into it, you're stepping out of "look, bonus stuff about the world mechanics" and into "hey, we're bailing out of actually showing you the story by text-dumping parts of it" and if it keeps going, it's not going to be long before readers start calling you out on it (even more than right now).

[thevorpalbunny]

Would you rather it take three weeks to pass through this "little battle" as we have to see parson's entire thought process as he writes his Klog/diary?

Klog =