[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

[Kaidinah]

*sigh* I'm really outvoted in regards to Graceful Killer. I guess I can just ban it in my games and grumble quietly when a fellow player picks it.

No offense, but considering that the Stalker is the weakest initiator, unless the Stalker gets a rework, arts like these are the only way to fix it.

Would you ban Brutal Slayer as well? Considering it effectively gets Graceful Killer at no cost?

[TheIronGolem]

*sigh* I'm really outvoted in regards to Graceful Killer.

Not completely. I love it, but I also worry that it will turn the Stalker into dip-fodder.

EDIT: But while we're on the subject, does this count as having Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility for prerequisites?

[tekevil]

All the Path of War classes are already dip fodder.

1 level Warlord dip is waaaay better than Fighter.

Have you seen how insane a Warder dip is?

I could go on, but it's pretty obvious that Path of War is dip fodder to the max.

We also have the problem that a Cleric-X/Warder-1 is significantly better than a Warder-1/Cleric-X


On topic though.

The change to Fear Monger legitimately made a near useless Stalker art of of a functional one.

[Extra Anchovies]

No offense, but considering that the Stalker is the weakest initiator, unless the Stalker gets a rework, arts like these are the only way to fix it.

I just edited in an answer to this in my previous post as a response to AGrinningCat. TL;DR, the Stalker's problem isn't in its feat economy but in its actual class features.

Not completely. I love it, but I also worry that it will turn the Stalker into dip-fodder.

That's a fair point, thank you for bringing it up again. I still hold this objection.

We also have the problem that a Cleric-X/Warder-1 is significantly better than a Warder-1/Cleric-X

Hm. I have to agree here. Graceful Killer does encourage Stalker 1/[other stuff] X, which isn't really that bad. I'd be annoyed that Stalker had been reduced to a dip class next to the other initiators, but it wouldn't be an issue for overall game balance.

[AGrinningCat]

Stalker is the weak class out of the original three anyways; I don't see any problem with giving them a functional melee attack if they want to use Dex instead of STR.

[ghanjrho]

I do think that opening Graceful Killer back up to multiple weapons (at least 2-3) would be a good idea, if for no other reason than I hate bonuses that are only tied to one particular weapon type.

Additionally, the Fear Monger rework is significantly worse than the original. Would be okay in a PoW that didn't have Unorthodox Method or Martial Traditions, but not in the one we have.

Lord of War should really not give a competence bonus. As it stands, it's a restricted Unorthodox Method that also gives a bonus I can buy for 400 gp, which is frankly not worth an Art.

[tekevil]

Agreed, if I wanted to play Soviet Stalker with a sickle and hammer I shouldn't be punished any more than the hilarious build already does.

[AGrinningCat]

Agreed, if I wanted to play Soviet Stalker with a sickle and hammer I shouldn't be punished any more than the hilarious build already does.

Sickle and Hammer is Strength build, Comrade. Not Dexterity.

[tekevil]

Sickle and Hammer is Strength build, Comrade. Not Dexterity.

You are correct, would be best going Brutal Slayer komrad!

Though in all seriousness I want to run a Stalker with a Rapier/Kukri/somethign with 18-20 and with a weapon that has a high crit multiplier so that my Deadly Strikes can be hilariously large dice.

[Extra Anchovies]

You are correct, would be best going Brutal Slayer komrad!

Though in all seriousness I want to run a Stalker with a Rapier/Kukri/somethign with 18-20 and with a weapon that has a high crit multiplier so that my Deadly Strikes can be hilariously large dice.

I wouldn't say it's "hilariously large". Deadly Strikes, at d10s, has less average damage than a full sneak attack progression at all levels except 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th, and it falls behind by more and more as you go up in level (eventually putting out only 27.5 vs SA's 35).

Also, now that I've looked at the math, that's another reason for the Vigilante Stalker's sneak attack to run from 1d6 to 7d6 - it keeps the damage in line with that of Deadly Strikes.

[PsyBomb]

Alright, picking up where I left off on the style reviews...

Iron Tortoise: This is the one I use as a benchmark for judging other styles, to be quite honest. All of it is at least solid and useful, and worth investing in for both full initiators and dabblers
Style- Size increase that stacks with everything is actually something almost completely unique to the game. Makes the shield much more worthwhile to use offensively.
Shell- Getting Evasion for a turn any time you use a counter (note: does not have to be from the school) will be frequent for some, and happens often enough even for feat-entry to make it significant.
Snap- This represents a very significant DPR increase for people who invest into TWF with their shield. It's a heavy investment, to be sure, but worth it once you get here.

Mithral Current: I'm going to leave off the arguments about how useful the first feat is for a Bushi. This is a specialist's style again. if you aren't heavy into the school, it isn't worth taking.
Style- Critical to the school and decent for anyone who likes to pretend they aren't ready for combat. Worthless in a vaccuum, otherwise.
Flow- Basically Mobility by another name, and Mobility isn't all that great. has the advantage of protecting you in any turn you don't draw, but that really doesn't come up too often.
Slice- Quite helpful to boost that initial damage before your techniques land the Vulnerability more solidly on the target, a serious practitioner should be getting the bonus every or nearly every round

Piercing Thunder: This one is more "cute tricks" than anything, but the chain has some build-enabling potential.
Style- Being able to Finesse some of these 2-handers is actually moderately significant, but since it doesn't shift your damage stat this more enables reach than anything.
Push- Where the style turned your longspears into shortspears, this turns your shortspears into longspears. It will let you keep certain nasties out of arm's length.
Trample- Free combat maneuvers can't hurt, but you need a different way to take advantage of these (such as a Daevic AoO or Mounted Trample)

Primal Fury: This is one of the big damage disciplines to begin with, so the style has a lot to live up to. This bunch is... well, not all that great.
*Style*- Notably does nothing if you get it at level 3. Can be niche-useful for extending initial charges or lengthening the range to run down people who try to run.
Slash- Extra attacks are always nice to have, if you're willing to accept taking extra attacks on your route.
Savagery- 2d6 bleed is insignificant at level 11, especially when you should already be obliterating charge targets if you're using the school properly. Basically just used to ensure that people you put down bleed out faster, which really isn't worthwhile.

Riven Hourglass: Autohypnosis is a great skill to begin with, the style has plenty of boosts and counters, and these feats are all quite powerful as well. Arguably the strongest of the Style feat lines. Very friendly to get in via martial Training.
Style- Really can't complain here. You get to see that you miss before triggering the reroll, so it will never be really wasted.
Rewind- This is a major game-changer, especially for when you can get it. 10 rounds free to act is HUGE, and will usually let you finish the combat and fix yourself up. Arguably too strong, but I call it on the bare edge of fair
Eternity- Not as good as Rewind, but still quite solid. You will hemorrhage resources like crasy if you abuse it, but getting that one last round out of a major buff (or extending somthing intended to be a 1-round deal) can and will change the nature of the combat

Scarlet Throne: This has been argued to death so I won't go into too much depth. Don't know why it got so much attention where there are so many other major standouts.
Style- Looks like it was intended to help Warders, or strength TWF characters who have to move. Not my favorite
Dignity- Never have to ready a counter again if you have good attack bonus, this will save you a ton of pain over time
Riposte- Given how often you are triggering this condition, the feat is much stronger than it appears on the surface. Should happen nearly every round, except in niche combats (or if the enemy gets an inkling of what you're doing)

Shattered Mirror: Another one that is incredibly friendly to dippers and quite powerful, this one helps casters and more mobile fighters out in a huge way.
Style- The weapon groups associated with Shattered Mirror are very, very broad. Basically just a flat +2 AC bonus at all times, which is decent.
Waltz- This is fighting with Riven Hourglass Rewind for the position of strongest PoW style feat, ignoring all difficult terrain constantly is something normally reserved for high-level buffs (and is one of the only times I've ever seen a feat beat the spell to the punch by multiple levels)
Duality- Again, highly powerful. Adds an average of 3.5 to your attack rolls for the entire round.

Silver Crane: Holy crap, a Tankling line of feats that's actually GOOD. This line will make your team a nightmare to take down as long as you are standing. Made an oradin with this feat chain, freaking impossible to kill and made my allies near-immortal. Good times
Style- As simple as it gets. You get easier to hurt, your allies get much more difficult to hurt. Makes enemies focus on you, which is right where you want them
Feathers- For when you are getting ignored anyway, you can deny them the joy of harming one of your buddies by taking the shot. Bodyguard mechanics are rare, treasure it.
Wing- Now, they don't even get the joy of watching you take the damage on the intercept. Not as good as the others, since damage numbers can get really rough to meet with a Will save... but on ABILITY damage, you'll nearly always make it.

Sleeping Goddess: The psionic discipline, and it meshes well on the multiclass. The feats emphasize this as well, which is good.
Style- Action economy is king, and this will let you add rider effects to when you refocus.
Slumber- Tag a target with an AoO, follow with a Coup. Laugh as they bleed. Even on normal use, this will ensure that every follow-on attack you have will hit.
Strike- Sleeping Goddess has a lot of physical attacks with rider save-based effects, this basically increased the DC of all of them by 2.

*Solar Wind*: One question, does this change element if you use the other schools, or if you utilize the Changing Winds feat? If so, this just got much, much stronger.
Style- Not much damage, but everything counts. The torch thing is mostly flavorful, but it means that you can do a few extra tricks
Flash- Dependent on you not using a Boost beforehand, but getting two rounds of blind off is a fight-ender.
Inferno- Much like Black Seraph Style, this cuts out easy-to-acquire resistances and immunities. Critical for specialists.

Steel Serpent: School is likely to be buffed soon, but the style chain is surprisingly good. You need to be using a lot of Steel Serpent to make the most of it, so it isn't too dip-friendly, but the effects are solid otherwise.
Style- I have nothing bad to say here. Tag with a main attack, they have a hard time attacking back.
Fangs- Plays quite well with Unquiet Grave as well, notably. Cutting out AC is just a part of it, there are tons of ways to take extra advantage of a flat-footed foe and you likely have more than one of your opponents damaged like this.
Venom- Nauseate cuts out an entire turn, and they have to make the save every time they take weapon damage. Good stuff.

Tempest Gale: The other ranged school, this is a very tricksy style chain hooking into a very tricksy school. You'll find that it supports you well as long as you play to the school strengths.
Style- You really never know when the maneuver will be useful, but this importantly allows you to use Dex instead of Strength.
Haze- Simple, direct, and powerful. Most attacks you take will be ranged due to your ranged nature, so this is a superior flat defense.
Storm- By this point, you probably want to be using your standard actions on Strikes, so it will rarely be worthwhile to take this feat.

*Thrashing Dragon*: To be honest, I wasn't impressed by these feats. Flavorful, but not all that effective in most cases. The problem is that you are a specialist in a style that makes these things irrelevant around the time you get them.
Style- If you aren't making a Strike, this helps your mobility out.
Pounce- Mostly used with strikes from outside the school, since most of the good ones in-school give multiple attacks
Whirlwind- Much better than Whirlwind Attack, especially for those with more than 2 arms (Kali summoners come to mind). Much better than the last two feats, but usually not worth grabbing at this point.

Veiled Moon: My favorite school, and the feats are really solid for it as well.
Style- I always love abilities that prevent opponents from getting back at you, and this one will let you Stealth out as long as he doesn't have any buddies.
*Step*- Never take an attack of opportunity again. Question: does this require LOS or LOE? If not, it is a hundred times better than I thought and has major out-of-combat utility
Warp- An odd way to end the series, but powerful. This is crowd control, pure and simple, and your opponent gets basically none of the benefits of it. I wish it wasn't phrased as only being usable on opponents, I can think of a few times I'd like to tag an ally with it.

That wraps up my style feats review, hope it helps.

[Vhaidara]

This would be good if the Stalker was starved for feats, but the Stalker's problems aren't in that it doesn't have enough feats but in that its other core class features don't hold up well next to those of the other DSP initiators.

I actually dispute this. Stalker's are naturally inclined towards Dex builds, which places a 2 feat tax on them beyond anything else. Say I want to play a TWF Stalker: The only way I can have that functional at level 1 is to both spend my Stalker Art on Combat Art AND play a human.

I am opposed to anything that prevents a player from using their combat style at level 1. It's also the source of my biggest complaint against the Ambush Hunter: You don't have the focus of your class until level 4. Players should be able to do their "thing" from level 1. Graceful Killer enables that for Stalkers.

[AGrinningCat]

Benefit: Whenever an ally who is flanking the same enemy as you misses an attack against that opponent, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.

Golden Lion Style.
I know how this is supposed to read, but bear with me for a second:
I am an ally to myself.
I am an ally to myself who is flanking the same enemy as myself. (Assuming I have another individual flanking)
I am an ally who missed an attack against that opponent against a target that an ally is flanking.

If I'm reading this strictly RAW; does this mean I can make attack of opportunities against targets I miss, as long as I'm flanking with someone?

[tekevil]

Yeah, one of the Stalker's biggest weaknesses is just how long it takes for them to get their acts together due to lack of feats.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, one of the Stalker's biggest weaknesses is just how long it takes for them to get their acts together due to lack of feats.

I... don't think that's too much of an issue. Prior to the introduction of Graceful Killer, all of the Stalker complaints that I'd seen were about the recovery method and core class features, not "needs more feats".

[squiggit]

We also have the problem that a Cleric-X/Warder-1 is significantly better than a Warder-1/Cleric-X

Pretty sure that's like 90% of the point behind tying maneuver swaps to character level than class level, because it's really silly to punish someone for taking levels of classes in the wrong order like that and forcing someone to choose between handicapping their style or losing power in the long run is terrible, really terrible. But everyone here except me seems to hate that change.

I... don't think that's too much of an issue. Prior to the introduction of Graceful Killer, all of the Stalker complaints that I'd seen were about the recovery method and core class features, not "needs more feats".

Feats aren't the main issue, but having basically all of its default combat modes take 3-5 levels or humanity to be fully functional didn't help any.

[Nyaa]

As PoW1 classes are getting new disciplines, aren't PRCs going to get them too? I remember Chris mentioning Awakened Blade getting Flux and Goddess and Mage Hunter (or was it Bladecaster?) getting Flux and Mirror.

[tekevil]

I... don't think that's too much of an issue. Prior to the introduction of Graceful Killer, all of the Stalker complaints that I'd seen were about the recovery method and core class features, not "needs more feats".

Most of those complaints were around the time Path of War 1 was pre-print stage and the Mystic was a ball of speculation.

[Extra Anchovies]

Pretty sure that's like 90% of the point behind tying maneuver swaps to character level than class level, because it's really silly to punish someone for taking levels of classes in the wrong order like that and forcing someone to choose between handicapping their style or losing power in the long run is terrible, really terrible. But everyone here except me seems to hate that change.

It scales with initiator level, though, which with the +2 IL trait gets you five swaps at levels 4/8/12/16/20, which can get you maneuvers of level 2/3/4/5/6 respectively. Pretty solid for a 1st-level dip, if you ask me.

Feats aren't the main issue, but having basically all of its default combat modes take 3-5 levels or humanity to be fully functional didn't help any.

Hm. Let's take a look at the commonly used combat styles, leaving out feats that can't be taken at 1st level by anyone (e.g. Greater Unarmed Strike)

TWF: Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, TWF, OR TWF, Prodigious TWF - 2 or 3 feats, BAB +1
THF: Power Attack - 1 feat, BAB +1
Archery: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot - 2 feats [Rapid Shot is useful but not necessary]
Sword+Board: Improved Shield Bash, TWF, Prodigious TWF - 3 feats
Unarmed (Str): Improved Unarmed Strike - 1 feat [TWF and Prodigious TWF are useful but not necessary]
Unarmed (Dex): Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Improved Unarmed Strike - 3 feats, BAB +1 [TWF is useful but not necessary]

So Dex-based TWF, Dex-based unarmed, and Sword+Board are the only ones that aren't fully online at level 1 for a non-human Stalker with Combat Art. All three of those come online at level 3. I don't see any problem with that. Characters shouldn't be completely set feat-wise at level 1, with everything after being gravy.

[tekevil]

You know what would probably make a lot of people happy and restrict nobody to any weapon choices or bypass feat pre-reqs?

What if the art just gave you Weapon Finesse and 2WF instead?

[Vhaidara]

Characters shouldn't be completely set feat-wise at level 1, with everything after being gravy.

You need to preface that with "in my opinion". Because I wholly disagree. I consider not being set up to completely handle your chosen combat style at level 1 to be very bad design. I had the same complaint on Pharaoh (Pharaoh's Bond wasn't there until level 2) and I still have that complaint with Ambush Hunter (the archetype is focused on the animal companion you don't have until level 4).

Tek, I actually dislike that as well. Mostly because it leaves people wanting to go einhander stalker out in the cold.

[tekevil]

You need to preface that with "in my opinion". Because I wholly disagree. I consider not being set up to completely handle your chosen combat style at level 1 to be very bad design. I had the same complaint on Pharaoh (Pharaoh's Bond wasn't there until level 2) and I still have that complaint with Ambush Hunter (the archetype is focused on the animal companion you don't have until level 4).

Tek, I actually dislike that as well. Mostly because it leaves people wanting to go einhander stalker out in the cold.

An Einhander Stalker and a TWF Stalker would still get dex to damage at the same time and have the exact same expenditure of resources by level 3.

Also it's a small peeve of mine when someone says "in your opinion" because what he said is his opinion. No need to add that disclaimer.

[Lord_Gareth]

Sweet freaking hell but we rip through these threads.

[Kaidinah]

Thanks for the feedback Psybomb, we definitely need people looking at stuff that hasn't been looked at much yet like the style feats. Can't wait to see you finish those up!

I'll give it a shot too! Here, a review of the entire PoW:E feat document.

Spoiler: PoW: E Feat document feedback

Show

Oh look. The traits are here too. I already love these three traits, and have given my opinion on them many times. No problems here.

Agile Dancer is pretty cool, though I honestly think it could have been a trait, like This or this.

Animus healing is hilarious, since I know that in the 10 rounds after combat ends, the Mystic can use this a minimum of 10 times. I don't think it is broken, just funny.

Battle Fervor is cool. Any chance of it being Sacred or Profane damage if the character is aligned?

Channeled Recovery is cool! Though I don't see a reason to keep its maneuvers known prerequisite. This could make a cool feat for a straight cleric that wants to help out its initiating party.

Darksilver Initiate is awaiting future updates. No point in reviewing it here.

Diverse Training feels too strong, but I think it was being changed? Not sure. If anything, I think removing the scaling to the initiator class abilities should be taken out, considering how good the first part of this feat is.

Electrum Manticore is cool in that you can break action economy with it. I think it needs an extra push though. One kind of push it could have would be not limiting it to per-encounter. Mirror of the Moon is a good comparison point, as it is infinite use and quite useful.

Elemental Sun feels superfluous with the new Solar Wind feat that was just released.

Enduring Protector is way cool! I think it should be enhanced to say "temporary Hit Points equal to the slain creatures Hit Dice or equal to the amount of temporary hit points you would gain from Martial Power. Whichever is higher." This is definitely a good feat line for a tough tank.

Feral Goddess needs a rework. One could just take Weapon Group Adaptation and be better served, as it would do everything Feral Goddess does, while also benefiting racial features and class features that grant natural attacks. This feat needs a little push, and probably should get a power point reduction like Forge of the Goddess.

Flowing Mithril Fist deserves a shoutout separate from the "This is all good" section because its just cool. Way too cool. Not only does it give its nice silver bonus, but it also helps get around some of the feat intensiveness that using Mithril Current and unarmed strikes would normally require.

Forge of the Goddess is cool, and it grants a power point cost reduction. I think this feat needs a little more.

Giant Slayer is wonderful for helping get past a very crappy higher level adventurer problem. Better yet, you won't need dodge and mobility anymore!

Mirror of the Moon has a ridiculous amount of cool factor, and is also one of the strongest of the combo discipline feats. It is not broken, but I just wanted to stress how cool it is.

Molten Silver Strike feels like it could use a bit of a boost. Perhaps it could increase the range of the ranged Mithril Current strikes?

Sorcerous Bloodline may be a little hard to use, depending on which bloodline you wish to advance. Its basically best off for bloodlines with minimal reliance of Charisma. Nothing is wrong with it balance wise though, as when it works, it REALLY works.

Now for the style feats.

Black Seraph Style is actually my favorite style. I have already built a Brutal Slayer to utilize it, and I have plans to use it with a Privateer as well. Every one of the Black Seraph feats are powerful, useful, and very cool. They work with the available debuffs of Black Seraph as well.

Broken Blade Style is interesting in that it introduces a new way to play Broken Blade. It doesn't interrupt Broken Blade's action economy, but it certainly adds to it. This style itself is fine, but it might be overwhelming in play until BB gets its nerfs.

Cursed Razor Style is a very strong style feat chain. Thankfully, the classes best at using it are also feat starved. Definitely a good line. Cursed Razor Plague is exceptionally cool, as your character spreads their curses far and wide.

Elemental Flux Style feels weak. The first feat in the line is okay, and doesn't really need to be changed. The second feat is just not good, and wastes a swift action to grant its effects. I'd rather just take Elements as One instead of Shift. The third feat is just not worth it. You would still have to spend the standard action activating the elemental burst effect after using your swift action to enter the style at the beginning of combat. Between entering the style, the standard action to activate the elemental burst, and Shift requiring a swift action, this style eats up way too many actions for less benefit than most styles feat chains.

Eternal Guardian Style is cool, but it is overly reliant on cursing when most classes that would want to use it don't have good ways of getting maximum curses out. Harbingers don't want this discipline, and Eternal Guardian itself doesn't hand out curses the way Cursed Razor or a Harbinger can.

Golden Lion Style needs some work, but is close to where it should be. The flanking requirement should be removed on the first feat, Charge is great, and Command should be strengthened.

Iron Tortoise style is fine. Psybomb's feedback has the right of it.

Mithril Current Style is great. Perfect for someone that would rather take 3 feats than be a Bushi. My only problem is that Mithril Current Slice is really, very strong for anyone with Mithril Current. Sadly, Bushi would have to take a dead feat to access Slice.

I already gave feedback on Piercing Thunder Style, where I said that the 1st feat is completely useless to strength using Piercing Thunder users. My suggestion was to have the feat provide some bonus to strength users that dex users would not be able to access, that way Piercing Thunder Style has no dead feats for anyone. ErrantX seemed to like that. Trample is great, no problems here.

Primal Fury Style is pretty cool I think. The style itself needs a "(minimum 5 feet)" added to it. Slash provides the awesome beserker and risk/reward feeling that Primal Fury should provide. I love Slash. Savagery is okay. I think Savagery should be replaced with a cool utility effect, instead of more damage.

Riven Hourglass Style is perfect. Please keep it the way it is.

Scarlet Throne Style is also just fine.

Shattered Mirror Style is perfect. I also want to point out that certain terrains, such as swamps, aren't actually difficult terrain and still hamper movement when you use Waltz. I personally Don't think Waltz should work on such terrains, but I just wanted to point it out in case the devs did intend for them to be able to move through such terrain.

Silver Crane is perfect.

For Sleeping Goddess Style, Psybomb has the right of it again. I don't think its overpowered though. This is a fantastic style for multiclassers, Pathwalkers, and such to use.

Solar Wind Style definitely needs a rework with how Solar Wind is being changed in this book. The 1st feat needs clarification for how long its illumination lasts.

Steel Serpent Style is very impressive. This will be amazing to use once Steel Serpent gets some updates.

Tempest Gale Style is great too. I especially like the capstone.

Thrashing Dragon Style is pretty cool I think, if I am reading it right. The 1st feat allows you to TWF on AOO's, right?
EDIT: This first feat does not work on AOOs. The 1st feat in Thrashing Dragon style should be buffed now that I know this. It should definitely work on AOOs and other standard attacks.
Pounce in fantastic when you use Thrashing Dragon maneuvers that only grant 1 attack (some of the best TD maneuvers out there!) and helps tremendously when using strikes from other disciplines. Whirlwind is pretty cool, but I will probably skip it in most builds, unless certain Primal Fury maneuvers are significantly nerfed.

Veiled Moon Style is a great feat chain. Especially when combined with Mirror of the Moon. All of its feats are quite useful, though I think the capstone could benefit greatly from being considered a Veiled Moon strike, since currently it would have 4 less of a DC than a Veiled Moon strike, due to not getting the +2 discipline weapon bonus, and the +2 from Discipline Specialization.

[NineThePuma]

Imho, stalker's big weakness is that its core fighting style is Two Weapon Fighting Crit Fishing Thrower. Three relatively feat intensive fighting styles. the fact that it's also Dex oriented by default can go either way, but anything to alleviate some of that feat starvation is a blessing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

While I really like the current version of Bleak Emissary I too think it's recovery method is too strong as it is. I think that keeping the swift action gate would help a lot to curb the power down, simply make the move action an extra requirement. From level 2 to 6 it would create a dynamic where you have to decide "Do I need to claim this round, or would I be better served keeping my action for Panther Style?", I personally think that kind of choice are good for the game.

Also on an unrelated note, is there any chance Thrashing Dragon Style could be buffed so it works in AoO? Because as it is now, it is pretty weak, if you are in a position where you only have an effective standard action I think it would be better to try and recover maneuvers or something else.

I know that Novawurmson hasn't been online for a couple of days and I think he is the designer of Bleak Emissary, so I'm reposting this from the old thread in the hopes he can see it once he is back.

@KKaidinah: Thrashing Dragon Style doesn't allow for double hit on AoO's, I asked that in the FAQ thread and Elricaltovilla said it only worked on standard action attacks, hence my comments of how it is a weak feat by it's own, I agree that the next tier feats are much better.

[Turion]

It scales with initiator level, though, which with the +2 IL trait gets you five swaps at levels 4/8/12/16/20, which can get you maneuvers of level 2/3/4/5/6 respectively. Pretty solid for a 1st-level dip, if you ask me.



Hm. Let's take a look at the commonly used combat styles, leaving out feats that can't be taken at 1st level by anyone (e.g. Greater Unarmed Strike)

TWF: Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, TWF, OR TWF, Prodigious TWF - 2 or 3 feats, BAB +1
THF: Power Attack - 1 feat, BAB +1
Archery: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot - 2 feats [Rapid Shot is useful but not necessary]
Sword+Board: Improved Shield Bash, TWF, Prodigious TWF - 3 feats
Unarmed (Str): Improved Unarmed Strike - 1 feat [TWF and Prodigious TWF are useful but not necessary]
Unarmed (Dex): Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Improved Unarmed Strike - 3 feats, BAB +1 [TWF is useful but not necessary]

So Dex-based TWF, Dex-based unarmed, and Sword+Board are the only ones that aren't fully online at level 1 for a non-human Stalker with Combat Art. All three of those come online at level 3. I don't see any problem with that. Characters shouldn't be completely set feat-wise at level 1, with everything after being gravy.

Nitpick: you left out Deadly Aim for archery, Piranha Strike for... pretty much any dex-based melee, and the crossbow style in general (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim; Rapid Shot is nice as well). I'm not even touching firearms

[Kaidinah]

Imho, stalker's big weakness is that its core fighting style is Two Weapon Fighting Crit Fishing Thrower. Three relatively feat intensive fighting styles. the fact that it's also Dex oriented by default can go either way, but anything to alleviate some of that feat starvation is a blessing.

I am going with Nine on this one.

Deadly Agility+Weapon Finesse should stay. Even with these highly efficient feat granting Stalker Arts, the Brutal Slayer is still more efficient due to basically getting these Arts for free, while also getting to benefit from power attack, and take any Stalker Art it wants at 1st level because it doesn't need 2-5 feats to activate its fighting style. I don't see why someone would be opposed to Graceful Killer while not absolutely abhoring Brutal Slayer.

Keep in mind, I consider Brutal Slayer the closest thing to the balance point all Stalkers should be at. It is great! In no way should the devs take my statements as meaning that I think it is overpowered, because its just not.

I know that Novawurmson hasn't been online for a couple of days and I think he is the designer of Bleak Emissary, so I'm reposting this from the old thread in the hopes he can see it once he is back.

@KKaidinah: Thrashing Dragon Style doesn't allow for double hit on AoO's, I asked that in the FAQ thread and Elricaltovilla said it only worked on standard action attacks, hence my comments of how it is a weak feat by it's own, I agree that the next tier feats are much better.

Thank you for that! I edited my feedback accordingly. Such a shame!

[Extra Anchovies]

Spoiler: feats!

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[QUOTE=Kaidinah;19452141]

Agile Dancer is pretty cool, though I honestly think it could have been a trait, like This or this.

I'm inclined to agree. It would be a really strong trait, but it feels too weak to be worth a feat outside of feat-light combat styles like THF.

Animus healing is hilarious, since I know that in the 10 rounds after combat ends, the Mystic can use this a minimum of 10 times. I don't think it is broken, just funny.

Hm? I don't know what you mean. Maximum of 10 times, yes, but a Mystic stops generating Animus right after the fight ends, and they wouldn't necessarily have 10 Animus at that point (and if they do they probably aren't doing their job right). Font of Animus turns this feat into unlimited healing, but you know what? That's 15th level. If you don't have unlimited healing via items by 15th level, you're probably dead.

Battle Fervor is cool. Any chance of it being Sacred or Profane damage if the character is aligned?

I feel like that's A) a bit much, because of the possibility of 150% damage, and B) unnecessarily punishing CN, TN, and LN warpriests.

Channeled Recovery is cool! Though I don't see a reason to keep its maneuvers known prerequisite. This could make a cool feat for a straight cleric that wants to help out its initiating party.

It actually seems a bit weak to me. Maybe the targets of the healing can forgo any number of dice of healing and recover an equivalent number of levels' worth of maneuvers? e.g. a character gives up four dice of healing to recover a 1st-level maneuver and a 3rd-level maneuver.

Diverse Training feels too strong, but I think it was being changed? Not sure. If anything, I think removing the scaling to the initiator class abilities should be taken out, considering how good the first part of this feat is.

Really? I'd actually prefer the opposite (remove the IL stacking, let the class features stack).

Electrum Manticore is cool in that you can break action economy with it. I think it needs an extra push though. One kind of push it could have would be not limiting it to per-encounter. Mirror of the Moon is a good comparison point, as it is infinite use and quite useful.

Yeah, I agree. Switching stances won't happen often enough that you'll be getting the benefit too often, but it's the slight buff that EM needs.

Elemental Sun feels superfluous with the new Solar Wind feat that was just released.

Agreed.

Enduring Protector is way cool! I think it should be enhanced to say "temporary Hit Points equal to the slain creatures Hit Dice or equal to the amount of temporary hit points you would gain from Martial Power. Whichever is higher." This is definitely a good feat line for a tough tank.

It's a fun one, but not one I'd personally take since I don't like to depend on my character being the one who gets the kill when there's four party members effectively competing for that. Letting them gain the Martial Power temp HP would be a good change, because as it is now the feat isn't particularly good except in parties built around handing every kill to one character.

Feral Goddess needs a rework. One could just take Weapon Group Adaptation and be better served, as it would do everything Feral Goddess does, while also benefiting racial features and class features that grant natural attacks. This feat needs a little push, and probably should get a power point reduction like Forge of the Goddess.

Agreed. Being treated as magic for DR purposes isn't notable enough to make this worth its own feat.

Mirror of the Moon has a ridiculous amount of cool factor, and is also one of the strongest of the combo discipline feats. It is not broken, but I just wanted to stress how cool it is.

Also it's got one of the coolest names out of any of the feats. The name alone is enough to make me want to build a SM/VM-based initiator

Molten Silver Strike feels like it could use a bit of a boost. Perhaps it could increase the range of the ranged Mithril Current strikes?

I honestly don't think there are even enough ranged MC strikes to make this feat worthwhile (I count only four).

Imho, stalker's big weakness is that its core fighting style is Two Weapon Fighting Crit Fishing Thrower. Three relatively feat intensive fighting styles. the fact that it's also Dex oriented by default can go either way, but anything to alleviate some of that feat starvation is a blessing.

Really? Where's the encouragement towards thrown weapons? I don't see it. But then, throwing is so atrociously bad in PF that I disregard it entirely.

Nitpick: you left out Deadly Aim for archery, Piranha Strike for... pretty much any dex-based melee, and the crossbow style in general (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim; Rapid Shot is nice as well). I'm not even touching firearms

Those all fall into the helpful but not necessary category - a character will usually do better with those feats than without them, but they aren't required for a character to fight in that particular style. I listed Power Attack as necessary for THF because they need the extra damage per hit to stand up next to the extra attacks and/or extra range from other fighting styles.

[Kaidinah]

Hm? I don't know what you mean. Maximum of 10 times, yes, but a Mystic stops generating Animus right after the fight ends, and they wouldn't necessarily have 10 Animus at that point (and if they do they probably aren't doing their job right). Font of Animus turns this feat into unlimited healing, but you know what? That's 15th level. If you don't have unlimited healing via items by 15th level, you're probably dead.

From Path of War's Systems and Use page. Encounters have been defined.:

"An encounter is a period of time from when initiative begins (starting with the surprise round, if any) to the last initiative has ended and after a total time amount of one minute has elapsed without combat resuming."

Therefore, the Mystic always has 10 rounds of animus generation at the end of every combat. So they get a minimum of 10 uses of Animus Healing since they should be getting 1 free animus for every round in combat.