[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

[Extra Anchovies]

From Path of War's Systems and Use page. Encounters have been defined.:

"An encounter is a period of time from when initiative begins (starting with the surprise round, if any) to the last initiative has ended and after a total time amount of one minute has elapsed without combat resuming."

Therefore, the Mystic always has 10 rounds of animus generation at the end of every combat. So they get a minimum of 10 uses of Animus Healing since they should be getting 1 free animus for every round in combat.

Hm. That needs to be cleared up, because as it is now, Animus Healing grants 20d4 heals at the end of every fight.

[Kudaku]

(...)Piercing Thunder: This one is more "cute tricks" than anything, but the chain has some build-enabling potential.
Style- Being able to Finesse some of these 2-handers is actually moderately significant, but since it doesn't shift your damage stat this more enables reach than anything.(...)

Snapped up this one since Piercing Thunder is very relevant to my current character - if Piercing Thunder Style makes polearms and spears qualify for Weapon Finesse, they would also qualify for Deadly Agility. So Weapon Finesse + Deadly Agility + Piercing Thunder Style would make spears and polearms DEX-SAD. You can already do Weapon Finesse + Deadly Agility with an elven branched spear, but Piercing Thunder Style opens up all the other spear and polearm options as well. Which is awesome.

As for Piercing Thunder Push: A number of spears and polearms already have the brace quality, which makes the first half of the feat do nothing. Any chance we could add in a sweetener for those weapons?

[PsyBomb]

Snapped up this one since Piercing Thunder is very relevant to my current character - if Piercing Thunder Style makes polearms and spears qualify for Weapon Finesse, they would also qualify for Deadly Agility. So Weapon Finesse + Deadly Agility + Piercing Thunder Style would make spears and polearms DEX-SAD. You can already do Weapon Finesse + Deadly Agility with an elven branched spear, but Piercing Thunder Style opens up all the other spear and polearm options as well. Which is awesome.

Color me embarrassed that I missed adding DA to that mix, thanks for the catch.

[Kudaku]

thanks for the catch.

Happy to help!

[Sethis]

Hm. That needs to be cleared up, because as it is now, Animus Healing grants 20d4 heals at the end of every fight.

Fire Aspect Elemental Flux stance already gives you infinite out of combat self-heal at IL 5 anyways.

So, I'm discovering a bit of an issue.

I'm making a rubato bard, and he's trying to focus on Mithral Current with a side of Elemental Flux. He's got aldori swordlord training, and he's using a dueling sword.

The issue is, with a +0 BaB, he's basically SCREWED for feats at level 1. I'm going to have to retrain a lot when I hit level 2 or 3.

I can't take Quick Draw, I can't take Weapon Focus, I can't take Deadly Agility.

I can't take any of the style feats, obviously. I don't get bonus feats, so when I hit level 3, I suddenly need to take everything, and even with retraining and Advanced Study at 5 I'm going to be in a weird place featwise. I'm basically stuck taking fodder and retraining later. * Retraining explicitly does allow you to take things you qualify for now that you didn't then, it was in an FAQ.

Without a +1 BaB or Quick Draw, or the Style feat, I have basically no way to ever draw a weapon and attack as Mithral Current requires at first level, and no related feats I can really take. Any Stalker in my position would have the same issue.

Shouldn't Ready the Draw stance also allow you to draw as a free action once per round? That would fix this issue. It is, I assume, supposed to be to enable Mithral Current to function at low levels.

[Extra Anchovies]

Fire Aspect Elemental Flux stance already gives you infinite out of combat self-heal at IL 5 anyways.

So, I'm discovering a bit of an issue.

I'm making a rubato bard, and he's trying to focus on Mithral Current with a side of Elemental Flux. He's got aldori swordlord training, and he's using a dueling sword.

The issue is, with a +0 BaB, he's basically SCREWED for feats at level 1. I'm going to have to retrain a lot when I hit level 2 or 3.

I can't take Quick Draw, I can't take Weapon Focus, I can't take Deadly Agility.

I can't take any of the style feats, obviously. I don't get bonus feats, so when I hit level 3, I suddenly need to take everything, and even with retraining and Advanced Study at 5 I'm going to be in a weird place featwise. I'm basically stuck taking fodder and retraining later. * Retraining explicitly does allow you to take things you qualify for now that you didn't then, it was in an FAQ.

Without a +1 BaB or Quick Draw, or the Style feat, I have basically no way to ever draw a weapon and attack as Mithral Current requires at first level, and no related feats I can really take.

That's a systemic issue in Pathfinder, and one that's big enough that DSP can't completely fix it (although they could patch part of it by adding a clause to every average-BAB class they make that they count as having BAB +1 at 1st level for prerequisite purposes). I recommend asking your DM to allow retraining and/or houserule away the BAB +1 prerequisite on, well, everything, because it's unfair to average-BAB martials.

[tekevil]

Even if you're a Human Rubato there are plenty of 1st level feats worth taking.

Weapon finesse
Discipline Focus
Power Attack
Piranha Strike

Though I can see the problem if you're trying to make Dueling Sword a thing, something that very few classes can do.

[Sethis]

Even if you're a Human Rubato there are plenty of 1st level feats worth taking.

Weapon finesse
Discipline Focus
Power Attack
Piranha Strike

Though I can see the problem if you're trying to make Dueling Sword a thing, something that very few classes can do.

Yeah, I had to get proficiency from a talent. My GM is using houserules where everyone gets Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and a few other feat taxes for free. (also, guess what needs +1 BAB? Both Power Attack and Piranha Strike).

I did take Discipline Focus for Elemental Flux though. Gets me some damage and DCs on Variable Strike, plus it's needed for Elements as One, which maybe I'll take at 7? 9? I dunno, feats are going to be an issue.

[Eloelle]

Hello,

I made a post on the DSP forums proper but it seems this place is way more active so I will cross-post things here. I hope that's okay!

Most of my feedback is about the Mystic since that's what I've been interested in lately. I really like it a lot! But there are a lot of issues with it still.

The maneuver cycle for the Mystic
Can you ready fewer maneuvers than your maximum?
> If so, then just ready your number of granted maneuvers, leaving 2-3 ‘unreadied’, and have them refresh every round. This was less effective for the Crusader since they only got 2-4 Granted maneuvers in the first place, but it was still an option.
> If not, then you actually become weaker by choosing Extra Readied Maneuver or at higher levels when you gain more Readied Maneuvers and not more Granted ones. The Crusader always had exactly 3 fewer Granted maneuvers than Readied ones, so it was always on a 4-round cycle (or 3 if you took Extra Granted Maneuver; Extra Readied Maneuver was restricted to the Swordsage). I like the RNG-ish system a little better than I did at first glance, but the math on this iteration just doesn’t work out. You could maybe fix this by allowing the Extra Granted Maneuver feat to be taken more than once, but idk.

Another option would be to grant more than one maneuver per round at higher levels. You’re most likely going to be using at most 2 maneuvers per round, but a lot of them are utility for specific situations like needing to Ghost Touch or penetrate DR or hit multiple opponents.

Another option would be to reduce the number of Readied Maneuvers that they get and instead make Instant Enlightenment usable (way) more often. Like per-encounter often.

Animus and maneuvers only ‘in combat’
One possible solution would be to allow characters to always have access to their ‘chosen’ granted maneuvers (so 2, or 3 if they took the Extra Granted Maneuver) at all times, even out of combat, but the rest of the granted maneuvers go in a pool that are only accessible once things are undeniably in combat. That would solve the Clockwatcher problem, and would allow a few other out-of-combat utility maneuvers to be used while still keeping the ‘surging arcane forces’ dealio.

Font of Animus
No limit? And why so late in their career? I know players who, once they get to level 15, will walk around using Font of Animus every minute (or every round, if they stack – which you should specify) to make sure they always have a zillion anima when an encounter starts. But at levels 9-14, when you’re able to spend 3 or 4 points on a single maneuver, but you’re still only generating one per round, it really doesn’t add up.

Ability scores
Having one of their signature disciplines (Elemental Flux) and several class features be based off Spellcraft when they are already dependent on Wisdom, Strength (probably), Dexterity, and Constitution (because they are squishier than other initiators) is kind of unfair. Either grant a bonus to Spellcraft, or a way to key it off Wisdom instead.

Mystic Artifice
It’s one thing to create a wondrous item, but spell completion/trigger item requires you to have the corresponding spell – if you fail the Spellcraft check while attempting to make a wand, what happens? Did you just waste 750g (times caster level times spell level)?

I think it should be a ‘per day’ thing, since you need to prepare the spell to create the item anyway. Like: “If you fail the Spellcraft check to emulate a spell, you can’t make any progress on the item that day (unless you increase the DC).” That way you’ve got spell completion items covered as well.

Aurora Soul

Yeah it’s underpowered.

Maneuvers/skills are fine.

Improved Unarmed Strike makes up for the loss of martial weapon proficiency. It is not worth an extra feat. Not even when combined with Greater Unarmed Strike. Here’s the table:
Base Attack Bonus Unarmed Strike Damage
+3 – +6 1d4
+7 – +10 1d6
+11 – +14 1d8
+15 or higher 1d10
But because you’re 3/4 BAB, what that actually means is your unarmed strike is still 1d3 until level 4, and increases to 1d6 at level 10, 1d8 at 15, and 1d10 at 20. Barring extensive investment in size modification (which would apply to any other weapon anyway) that means GUS gives you:
Levels 1-3: Nothing
Levels 4-10: +0.5 average damage
Levels 11-15: +1.5 average damage
Levels 16-20: +2.5 average damage

Even for a full BAB class it’s a trap option. If you gave them progression as a monk, it would still only be:
Levels 1-3: +1.5 average damage
Levels 4-7: +2.5 average damage
Levels 8-11: +3.5
Levels 12-15: +5
Levels 16-19: +7
Level 20: +9
Compared to two-weapon fighting with light martial weapons it’s still hardly worth a feat – they start at 1d6 (+1.5 average damage over an unarmed strike), have wider crit ranges, can be enchanted separately, don’t trigger physical contact abilities like elemental auras, can be made out of Silver or Cold Iron – okay, they can be sundered/disarmed, so it’s a tradeoff there, but hey.

Adding WIS to AC makes up for the loss of a shield – at higher point buys, it may outscale it by a little, but that’s the case for any class that has Canny Defense. In any case, the fact that we can use it while two-weapon fighting with our fists is the only redeeming feature of this archetype. But why is it in exchange for an out-of-combat, utility-oriented class feature? If anything, it should replace Arcane Defense and add +1 at levels 6/11/16/20, or something like that. Alternatively, just have it replace light armor proficiency and shield proficiency and not any other class features.

Adding WIS to damage finally makes up for the loss of damage, but now we’re at level 7, and two bonus feats in the hole with nothing to show for it but an unarmed strike that does maybe 2-3 more damage than an equivalent light weapon – unless it crits or the monster has DR other than Magic.

Adding WIS to CMB and CMD is cool but nothing about the archetype or the base class facilitates or benefits from the use of combat maneuvers. There are a few strikes that add combat maneuvers to your damage, and adding WIS to that is certainly a nice bonus, well worth the feat it costs, but it does seem a little out of place in that you need to invest significant resources elsewhere to make it useful, especially when you don’t get it until this late in the game.

Adding WIS to crit confirms is fine but, again, out of place, since an unarmed strike has the worst crit range in the game. It would combine well with Pummeling Style, except you’re not getting any Flurry of Blows or the ability to spend ki to get extra attacks, so you’re limited to whatever extra attacks you spent feats and stances on.

—

Simplest fix would be to move Improved Unarmed Strike to the proficiencies section, take out Greater Unarmed Strike, and make the 2nd-level feat grant Flurry of Blows. I'm sort of looking at the Meditant archetype for the Psychic Warrior to compare it.

[Nihilarian]

Maneuver: Beginning at 3rd level, as a swift action, the pathwalker can expend his psionic focus to brace his weapon against a charge as an immediate action, and gain a +1 bonus to the attack roll of this brace. This bonus increases by +1 at 7th level and every four class levels thereafter.

This should probably be one or the other.

[Deadkitten]

I have to ask before giving input on the Path of War style feats: Should I allow Master of Many Styles Monk to influence my opinion of any of the style feats to any degree?

[Lord_Gareth]

I have to ask before giving input on the Path of War style feats: Should I allow Master of Many Styles Monk to influence my opinion of any of the style feats to any degree?

We're not balancing to the existence of that wretched filth, no.

[Kaidinah]

Font of Animus
No limit? And why so late in their career? I know players who, once they get to level 15, will walk around using Font of Animus every minute (or every round, if they stack – which you should specify) to make sure they always have a zillion anima when an encounter starts. But at levels 9-14, when you’re able to spend 3 or 4 points on a single maneuver, but you’re still only generating one per round, it really doesn’t add up.

Yeah, starting a combat with a butt-ton more animus would be problematic, and I do not think Mystics should be generating a bunch of additional animus without sacrificing actions in combat.

However, keep in mind that Elemental Flux was designed to be as effective as other disciplines without needing animus to buff its damage. Animus is a cool bonus, and not something that you should assume the Mystic needs to make Elemental Flux worth it.

You don't need to spend 3 or 4 animus to keep it competitive. If you go nova with your animus, you pay the price.

Aurora Soul

Yeah it’s underpowered.

Maneuvers/skills are fine.

Improved Unarmed Strike makes up for the loss of martial weapon proficiency. It is not worth an extra feat. Not even when combined with Greater Unarmed Strike. Here’s the table:
Base Attack Bonus Unarmed Strike Damage
+3 – +6 1d4
+7 – +10 1d6
+11 – +14 1d8
+15 or higher 1d10
But because you’re 3/4 BAB, what that actually means is your unarmed strike is still 1d3 until level 4, and increases to 1d6 at level 10, 1d8 at 15, and 1d10 at 20. Barring extensive investment in size modification (which would apply to any other weapon anyway) that means GUS gives you:
Levels 1-3: Nothing
Levels 4-10: +0.5 average damage
Levels 11-15: +1.5 average damage
Levels 16-20: +2.5 average damage

I agree here. They should count as full-BaB for this particular feat.

This is also a chance to give the Stalker a cool Stalker art that grants Greater Unarmed Strike at full BAB and possibly some other feat or goody, such as TWF when using unarmed strikes only.

[Extra Anchovies]

We're not balancing to the existence of that wretched filth, no.

I'm glad we have similar opinions of that... thing.

The maneuver cycle for the Mystic
Can you ready fewer maneuvers than your maximum?
> If so, then just ready your number of granted maneuvers, leaving 2-3 ‘unreadied’, and have them refresh every round. This was less effective for the Crusader since they only got 2-4 Granted maneuvers in the first place, but it was still an option.

>idiot mystic
pls no

ETA: For those who don't know, there's a 3.5 thing called the Idiot Crusader which is based around having fewer maneuvers known than you do maneuvers granted (this is generally achieved with a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1). Its main purposes is picking up White Raven Tactics via Martial Study for an arbitrary number of turns per round. Thankfully it doesn't work with the mystic because they have six disciplines available and a lot of maneuvers to choose from all of them.

> If not, then you actually become weaker by choosing Extra Readied Maneuver or at higher levels when you gain more Readied Maneuvers and not more Granted ones. The Crusader always had exactly 3 fewer Granted maneuvers than Readied ones, so it was always on a 3-round cycle (or two if you took Extra Granted Maneuver; Extra Readied Maneuver was restricted to the Swordsage). I like the RNG-ish system a little better than I did at first glance, but the math on this iteration just doesn’t work out. You could maybe fix this by allowing the Extra Granted Maneuver feat to be taken more than once, but idk.

Yeah, Mystics are not really meant to take Extra Readied Maneuver.

Another option would be to grant more than one maneuver per round at higher levels. You’re most likely going to be using at most 2 maneuvers per round, but a lot of them are utility for specific situations like needing to Ghost Touch or penetrate DR or hit multiple opponents.

I agree with this, or at least the idea behind it. As it is now, the Mystic's maneuvers refresh every four rounds from levels 1-11, every five rounds from levels 12-14, every six rounds from levels 15-19, and every seven rounds at level 20. A quick fix would be to have the initial granted maneuvers increase at the same rate as the readied maneuvers (2 at 1st, +1 at 3rd and every three levels thereafter). It would be a slight buff to the Mystic but it wouldn't put the Mystic above the Harbinger or Zealot in terms of power. Eventually granting multiple maneuvers per round at higher levels might also work but would be more complicated.

Animus and maneuvers only ‘in combat’
One possible solution would be to allow characters to always have access to their ‘chosen’ granted maneuvers (so 2, or 3 if they took the Extra Granted Maneuver) at all times, even out of combat, but the rest of the granted maneuvers go in a pool that are only accessible once things are undeniably in combat. That would solve the Clockwatcher problem above, and would allow a few other out-of-combat utility maneuvers to be used while still keeping the ‘surging arcane forces’ dealio.

The issue there is that the maneuvers you hand-pick change each time your maneuvers are granted to you.

Font of Animus
No limit? And why so late in their career? I know players who, once they get to level 15, will walk around using Font of Animus every minute (or every round, if they stack – which you should specify) to make sure they always have a zillion anima when an encounter starts. But at levels 9-14, when you’re able to spend 3 or 4 points on a single maneuver, but you’re still only generating one per round, it really doesn’t add up.

It does need to have stacking clarified. Maybe "when not in combat, a Mystic can only use this ability once per minute"?

Ability scores
Having one of their signature disciplines (Elemental Flux) and several class features be based off Spellcraft when they are already dependent on Wisdom, Strength (probably), Dexterity, and Constitution (because they are squishier than other initiators) is kind of unfair. Either grant a bonus to Spellcraft, or a way to key it off Wisdom instead.

Hm. Wis-based Spellcraft actually makes a lot of sense for this class. Getting Wis to UMD would be nice too but that's a bit much to ask.

[Eloelle]

Yeah, starting a combat with a butt-ton more animus would be problematic, and I do not think Mystics should be generating a bunch of additional animus without sacrificing actions in combat.

However, keep in mind that Elemental Flux was designed to be as effective as other disciplines without needing animus to buff its damage. Animus is a cool bonus, and not something that you should assume the Mystic needs to make Elemental Flux worth it.

You don't need to spend 3 or 4 animus to keep it competitive. If you go nova with your animus, you pay the price.

Ok, that makes sense, but it seems weird to increase your nova potential with levels but not increase your resources to do it with (barring the small buffs to your wisdom modifier as you gain wealth)?

I agree here. They should count as full-BaB for this particular feat.

This is also a chance to give the Stalker a cool Stalker art that grants Greater Unarmed Strike at full BAB and possibly some other feat or goody, such as TWF when using unarmed strikes only.

lol, even then it's still weaker than Monastic Legacy except at precisely level 15 (yeah, yeah, I know you need 2 levels in Monk for that, but you know how little Paizo gives monks). The feat itself is bad imo.

>idiot mystic
pls no

I'm not sure I follow >.> it seems pretty useful to have 5-7 maneuvers of your choice every round. The full-BAB initiators only get that many to begin with.

Yeah, Mystics are not really meant to take Extra Readied Maneuver.

I agree with this, or at least the idea behind it. As it is now, the Mystic's maneuvers refresh every four rounds from levels 1-11, every five rounds from levels 12-14, every six rounds from levels 15-19, and every seven rounds at level 20. A quick fix would be to have the initial granted maneuvers increase at the same rate as the readied maneuvers (2 at 1st, +1 at 3rd and every three levels thereafter). It would be a slight buff to the Mystic but it wouldn't put the Mystic above the Harbinger or Zealot in terms of power. Eventually granting multiple maneuvers per round at higher levels might also work but would be more complicated.

Fair.

The issue there is that the maneuvers you hand-pick change each time your maneuvers are granted to you.

Hm, true. I guess you could change that, too?

Hm. Wis-based Spellcraft actually makes a lot of sense for this class. Getting Wis to UMD would be nice too but that's a bit much to ask.

Yeah. UMD isn't integral to the class the way Spellcraft is, even though it would be nice with the change I suggested for Mystic Artifice.

[AGrinningCat]

Asking again so people don't forget

Benefit: Whenever an ally who is flanking the same enemy as you misses an attack against that opponent, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.

Golden Lion Style.
I know how this is supposed to read, but bear with me for a second:
I am an ally to myself.
I am an ally to myself who is flanking the same enemy as myself. (Assuming I have another individual flanking)
I am an ally who missed an attack against that opponent against a target that an ally is flanking.

If I'm reading this strictly RAW; does this mean I can make attack of opportunities against targets I miss, as long as I'm flanking with someone?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere (probably the FAQ thread) that as far as PoW mechanics are concerned you are not considered to be your own ally.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere (probably the FAQ thread) that as far as PoW mechanics are concerned you are not considered to be your own ally.

You've got'cherself backwards. You're always your own ally. Always. I'll poke it at the team, see if we want to install 'other ally' in there or if it's cute enough to keep.

[Kaidinah]

Ok, that makes sense, but it seems weird to increase your nova potential with levels but not increase your resources to do it with (barring the small buffs to your wisdom modifier as you gain wealth)?

lol, even then it's still weaker than Monastic Legacy (yeah, yeah, I know you need 2 levels in Monk for that, but you know how little Paizo gives monks). The feat itself is bad imo.

There is also a feat to get +2 more animus at the start of a fight. Though I like this bounded nova potential. At early levels, there is a limit to how much animus you can spend, in that you literally don't have enough ways to burn it all without gimping yourself. At later levels, you can actually burn it all to do something big and flashy. You basically have to choose between pacing yourself, or making something blow up.

Also, I am okay with their unarmed strikes falling behind, especially since monks don't get 9/9 Broken Blade scaling, and don't get one of the strongest party buffs in the game (Glyphs) that can be used as a move action.

[Eloelle]

There is also a feat to get +2 more animus at the start of a fight. Though I like this bounded nova potential. At early levels, there is a limit to how much animus you can spend, in that you literally don't have enough ways to burn it all without gimping yourself. At later levels, you can actually burn it all to do something big and flashy. You basically have to choose between pacing yourself, or making something blow up.

That's kind of cool. I never thought of it that way. I wonder if that's the intention though?

I don't agree that costing a feat addresses my reservations, but it's something anyway.

Also, I am okay with their unarmed strikes falling behind, especially since monks don't get 9/9 Broken Blade scaling, and don't get one of the strongest party buffs in the game (Glyphs) that can be used as a move action.

Regarding broken blade: You only need 3rd level maneuvers to access the main attraction of that discipline. There's very little above 6th level that isn't just a lower-level maneuver with higher damage numbers.

Regarding glyphs: You get those as a non-Aurora Soul anyway, which is why I compared them to two-weapon fighting with weapons. My point was mainly that it's not worth the feat slot until your BAB reaches 15, and even then it's only 2.5 extra average damage.

[master4sword]

Pretty sure that's like 90% of the point behind tying maneuver swaps to character level than class level, because it's really silly to punish someone for taking levels of classes in the wrong order like that and forcing someone to choose between handicapping their style or losing power in the long run is terrible, really terrible. But everyone here except me seems to hate that change.

This is the exact reason that I like the change.

[Extra Anchovies]

Just a heads up, Idiot Crusader tactics work with the Warpath Follower. For example:

Warder (Zweihander Sentinel) 1/Warlord 1/Warpath Follower 1
Learn Angering Smash, Iron Shell, Snapping Strike, Throwing Shell, and Red Zephyr's Strike as Warder maneuvers. Learn Shoulder Rush, Crushing Blow, Blade of Breaking, Prince's Attitude, Panther on the Hunt, and Scything Strike as Warlord maneuvers. Take a level of Warpath Follower for a deity with a heavy blade as their favored weapon, and pick Iron Tortoise, Scarlet Throne, and Primal Fury as your maneuvers. You can only learn 1st-level maneuvers (IL is 2), and although you could learn 3, there's only one available (Primal Wrath). Since you have one granted maneuver and one maneuver known, you can use it every round without needing a recovery action.

I'm sure there are specific abuses with this, but I can't be bothered to find them and the fact that this exploit exists is reason enough to patch it. Maybe prohibit the Warpath Follower from selecting disciplines that they know maneuvers of from different classes?

ETA: The example I provide isn't too horrible, but it can get pretty bad - add in Extra Granted Maneuver and an Advanced Study down the road and you can use a fairly high-level maneuver every round with no recovery necessary.

[Jurai]

Will we get items like the Crown of White Ravens for Path of War?

[Kaidinah]

This is the exact reason that I like the change.

To be fair, I would have opposed non-initiator class levels advancing initiator levels without using a feat back in PoW 1 if I was part of that playtest.

You don't see half a class's levels advancing Mind Blades or Astral Suits.

[Eloelle]

Just a heads up, Idiot Crusader tactics work with the Warpath Follower. For example:

Warder (Zweihander Sentinel) 1/Warlord 1/Warpath Follower 1
Learn Angering Smash, Iron Shell, Snapping Strike, Throwing Shell, and Red Zephyr's Strike as Warder maneuvers. Learn Shoulder Rush, Crushing Blow, Blade of Breaking, Prince's Attitude, Panther on the Hunt, and Scything Strike as Warlord maneuvers. Take a level of Warpath Follower for a deity with a heavy blade as their favored weapon, and pick Iron Tortoise, Scarlet Throne, and Primal Fury as your maneuvers. You can only learn 1st-level maneuvers (IL is 2), and although you could learn 3, there's only one available (Primal Wrath). Since you have one granted maneuver and one maneuver known, you can use it every round without needing a recovery action.

I'm sure there are specific abuses with this, but I can't be bothered to find them and the fact that this exploit exists is reason enough to patch it. Maybe prohibit the Warpath Follower from selecting disciplines that they know maneuvers of from different classes?

Oh, I see, 'Idiot Mystic' was the technical term. That makes a lot more sense - thank you! Sorry, I'm kind of new (obviously) so I don't know what's been said and done and what not.

[Anlashok]

Flow- Basically Mobility by another name, and Mobility isn't all that great. has the advantage of protecting you in any turn you don't draw, but that really doesn't come up too often.

If you're using MC as intended you're probably drawing at least once a turn, which makes it worse than mobility since at least you Mobility doesn't get turned off after attacking.

Conversely you can turn it into a permanent +4 to AC by outright ignoring MC mechanics and simply carrying a sheathed dagger around with you permanently while fighting normally. That's not very good either though since you're burning two feats and your style for it, but it gets more out of the feat than someone trying to play 'properly'.

Frankly the only reason this isn't one of the worst feats in the entire game of Pathfinder game is because Paizo has printed feats that actually make you worse if you try to use them. Even then Mithral Current Flow is pretty damn close.

Power aside I think it should send up a red flag that the optimal playstyle here is to have a backup weapon you never draw and then optimize for massive single hit attacks with Slice.

Again: I get more mileage out of Mithral Current Flow by being a guy on a horse with a silver lance or a scarlet throne/primal fury specialist in heavy armor with a greatsword and a dagger tucked into my belt than by being anything close to what a mithral current user normally looks like.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you're using MC as intended you're probably drawing at least once a turn, which makes it worse than mobility since at least you Mobility doesn't get turned off after attacking.

Conversely you can turn it into a permanent +4 to AC by outright ignoring MC mechanics and simply carrying a sheathed dagger around with you permanently while fighting normally. That's not very good either though since you're burning two feats and your style for it, but it gets more out of the feat than someone trying to play 'properly'.

Frankly the only reason this isn't one of the worst feats in the entire game of Pathfinder is because Paizo has printed feats that actually make you worse if you try to use them. Even then Mithral Current Flow is pretty damn close.

Power aside I think it should send up a red flag that the optimal playstyle here is to have a backup weapon you never draw and then optimize for massive single hit attacks with Slice.

Again: I get more mileage out of Mithral Current Flow by being a guy on a horse with a silver lance or a scarlet throne/primal fury specialist in heavy armor with a greatsword and a dagger tucked into my belt than by being anything close to what a mithral current user normally looks like.

Yeah, MC Flow is just a tax for MC Slice. It needs some changes.

I also now want to roll up a gangster-rapping Bushi named MC Slice.

Oh, I see, 'Idiot Mystic' was the technical term. That makes a lot more sense - thank you! Sorry, I'm kind of new (obviously) so I don't know what's been said and done and what not.

You're welcome! The idiot crusader isn't exactly the most widely known exploit but it's one of my favorites, so I noticed the similarity as soon as you mentioned readying fewer-than-normal maneuvers as a Mystic.

Also, welcome to the forums! I hope you enjoy your time here

[PsyBomb]

If you're using MC as intended you're probably drawing at least once a turn, which makes it worse than mobility since at least you Mobility doesn't get turned off after attacking.

Frankly the only reason this isn't one of the worst feats in the entire game of Pathfinder game is because Paizo has printed feats that actually make you worse if you try to use them. Even then Mithral Current Flow is pretty damn close.

Power aside I think it should send up a red flag that the optimal playstyle here is to have a backup weapon you never draw and then optimize for massive single hit attacks with Slice.

It's a bit better than THAT. Not by much, but you do your movement before drawing to gain the defensive bonuses. Thus, Mobility, which gives the same bonuses in extremely similar situations. Mobility doesn't get turned off, but only applies to AoOs from movement

[Elricaltovilla]

Diverse Training has gone the way of the Dodo, and in it's place we've got the following feats:

Pikeman’s Training [Combat]
Militaries across the land rely on lines of pikemen carrying both their long spears and a shield. You are familiar with this fighting style.
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: You can wield a two handed polearm in one hand, provided you are wielding a light or heavy shield in your other hand.

Short Haft [Combat]
Holding your polearm further up its length, you can strike adjacent foes as well as those further away.
Prerequisite: BAB +6
Benefit: You can attack adjacent enemies with your reach weapon until the end of your turn by taking a -2 penalty to AC for the round. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.

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I've got a list of other feats that need fixing, but those are going to have to wait until tomorrow. I just got back from convincing a horde of over 200,000 kobolds that my friends and I are gods and they should worship us as such. So I'm kind of tired.

[MilleniaAntares]

Ability scores
Having one of their signature disciplines (Elemental Flux) and several class features be based off Spellcraft when they are already dependent on Wisdom, Strength (probably), Dexterity, and Constitution (because they are squishier than other initiators) is kind of unfair. Either grant a bonus to Spellcraft, or a way to key it off Wisdom instead.

All PoW classes have this issue. That's not going to change.

Maybe that should be added to the FAQ.