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2015-06-30, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Wait. Really? OR, or, maybe we're just looking at a Champion Fighter who has two extra ASIs over the Cleric so he's got Resilient (Wis), Sentinel, Great Weapon Master AND Strength 20 throwing around three attacks per round with an attack bonus of either +10 or +5 dealing either 2d6+5 or 2d6+15 each (minimum average damage here, assuming no criticals, no bonus action attacks, no reaction attacks, and no power attacks, is 39.99). Since you're not looking at to-hit vs AC/saving throw ratios at all, even if we continue to ignore criticals, bonus action and reaction attacks, and just include power attacks, that makes the Fighter's average damage per round 69.99, a whopping 26.99 points more per round than your complex calculation involving a Tempest Cleric, concentration, and multiple spells slots expended over multiple turns over multiple encounters over the course of the day. The Great Weapon Master Champion can deal 69.99 DPR in every round of every combat of every day, not including his Action Surge, not including critical hits, not including possible bonus action attacks, and not including possible reaction attacks.
Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-06-30 at 11:12 PM.
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2015-06-30, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
The cleric has to be of a few specific domains to get the weapon proficiency and cast two spells. The fighter just has to exist. You haven't given the fighter a combat style, most likely reroll 1s and 2s, feats, or class features such as Battle Master maneuvers, Champion critical hits, or Eldritch Knight spells.
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2015-06-30, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
The Combat Style (Great Weapon Fighting) represents that +1 in the Fighter's damage.
It's 36, not 39.99. I didn't include AC/Saving Throws because that favors the Cleric even more, since Spirit Guardians does half damage even on a successful save (to say nothing of it being AoE and having a 15 foot reach). Attacks do nothing on a miss, and Power Attacking makes that more likely. Taking accuracy into account means the Fighter falls significantly behind.
All the Fighter really has over our hypothetical Cleric is 1 hp/level.Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2015-06-30, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
yeah, the comparisons have been pretty slap-dash..... the cleric can put together some neat tricks.... but just can't keep up with the fighter's damage output. The fighter has better styles, feats, features, etc.
OTOH, just to stir the pot.... remember that Spirit guardians can work twice in a turn. When you walk over to a bad guy they make a save. If you stop there, they will make another save ontheir turn.
But even with that.... the cleric takes time to get everything going, and still can't compete with the fighter's damage output.
I also notice folks keep assuming the cleric will just have all of these feats, and high stats....somehow...
And even with advantage, the cleric is going to miss a decent number of conc checks.
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2015-06-30, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Pretty much exactly this. There are a fair number of advantages to playing a cleric, but they certainly don't invalidate fighters when it comes to reliable DPR.
The best you're going to do on damage for Spirit Guardians would likely be a lore bard with Find Steed for two copies of the spell at once, and that depends on the pretty shaky ruling that Spirit Guardians is a spell that targets only the bard.Last edited by Flashy; 2015-06-30 at 11:57 PM.
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2015-07-01, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2015-07-02 at 11:00 AM.
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2015-07-01, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
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2015-07-01, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2014
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2015-07-01, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2015-07-01, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Our bard, when he hit 6th level, seriously considered taking Tiny Hut and Spirit Guardian - we were about to assault a bridge (15' wide) and figured casting Spirit Guardians, then Tiny Hut in the middle of the bridge would deter any counterassault.
He ended up taking fireball instead, and clearing the bridge of the popcorn, but I still think if you can find tactical chokepoints often enough, that combo is quite broken.Trollbait extraordinaire
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2015-07-01, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
You're doing the numbers wrong.
You seriously arguing that a BM fighter 14 deals less DPR than a tempest cleric of the same level?
I'll use my two extra feats to take marksman and crossbow master. Dex 20. Alert feat. Hand crossbow drawn.
+10 to initiative. Should go first. 7 attacks at +7 dealing 1d6+15 damage each. Misses get turned into hits with sup dice (d10). Hits get turned into menacing attacks also dealing an extra d10 damage - and stopping you moving closer (unless you're immune to fear).
With no Crits and using non magical bows and arrows, if they all hit (which thanks to precise shot, they pretty much all will) that's 7d6+105 points of damage. Every Attack that hits without precise shot deals an extra d10 damage.
I'm not seeing a cleric trump that kind of ranged single target nova damage.Last edited by Malifice; 2015-07-01 at 07:02 AM.
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2015-07-01, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
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2015-07-01, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- The Netherlands
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Last edited by PoeticDwarf; 2015-07-01 at 09:58 AM.
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2015-07-01, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
The question is not "When expending all of their resources for the day, who can deal the most damage in one round". The answer to that is Paladin, or better yet Paladin 2 / Fighter 2 / Bard of Valor X, who can burn through all their spell slots using Divine Smite with a max of 6 attacks per round (with self cast haste and GWM), all of which have up to +5d8 damage (or more accurately, 1d10+5d8+15, for 6d10+30d8+90 total damage).
The question is rather, who does better damage, accounting sure for that initial burst, but then also for the sustained damage afterwards. I don't have time to crunch those numbers right now, but I should also point out that the conventions which apply to balancing monsters indicate AOE effects should be counted as hitting two targets, so I'd argue the same is true here. Keep in mind Spirit Guardians lasts a ridiculous 10 minutes, so possibly multiple fights. Figuring out sustained damage over 5-10 rounds would be more meaningful than "burst" damage.
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2015-07-01, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2005
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2015-07-01, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
The +1 gets multiplied by 3 in my equation, although I can now see that I only gave the Fighter a +4 strength modifier when it should have been +5, which gives him another 3 damage. Let's give him that extra +1 because you say so. But it still doesn't matter because the Cleric's Spirit Guardians does half damage on a "miss", so even if the Fighter had 10 dpr over the Cleric when everything hits the Cleric's dpr in practice would still be higher, since things don't always hit.
And that's before considering the AoE and 15 foot reach of Spirit Guardians.
Don't get me wrong. I would love for the Fighter to have more dpr over the course of a day than a Cleric who put all his spells into it (and I believed 5e had fixed that until now), but everything I'm seeing here indicates otherwise.Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2015-07-01, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Coredump has a point here: being a melee cleric with Str 20 AND Wis 20 AND Con 20 is unlikely if you use the standard array. In fact, that's just not possible. Granted, some people roll some ridiculous stats to make the game more fun for the power-hungry out there, and that's their call to make, but that shouldn't apply to theorycrafting like this. The fighter gets a significant advantage in their ability to get more ASIs, which lets them typically have higher stats and more feat options. The Cleric is too MAD to make their other spellcasting worth it if you're stressing your ability to maintain a Con save and have a high enough strength to be a fighter replacement.
Does that outweigh the benefits of a situational spell like spirit guardians that requires a con save (which, if you're taking the war caster feat AND resilient feat AND giving yourself a +5 to constitution for that save, you're super-human or something)? That's up to your call. Have you tested it at your table? do all players feel like they contribute to combats?
Let's take this out of theorycrafting, and away from ludicrously high stats, and see how the idea flies, hm?Last edited by ruy343; 2015-07-01 at 02:05 PM.
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2015-07-01, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Here is what it comes down to.
If you think this cleric build is OP. Instead of just throwing out potentials.... create the build, and then we can make direct comparisons.
Provide us with this 'fighter-shaming' cleric build, and lets see how his DPR stands up to an actual fighter.
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2015-07-01, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
I still don't know where people are finding these clerics with spirit guardians that aren't getting peppered with hits as they stride into melee range.
It's not +3d8 every turn. It's +3d8 until you lose concentration. And it costs you a 3rd level spell slot which is not insignificant for a large portion of the game.
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2015-07-01, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
If concentration is maintained, Spirit Guardians has a duration of 10 minutes! The cleric in my party cast it and sprinted around the zombie dungeon absolutely massacring just about every hostile in the whole place. They were all in groups of three to six, almost all of which would expire to the first hit. He ended up doing hundreds and hundreds of damage in total before the spell expired. He happened to make the two or three concentration saving throws he had to take during that time, but still.
My AOE wizard had just gotten the long-wished-for fireball, and I felt extremely under-powered. The cleric asked me at one point, "why did you waste a whole 3rd level spell on those ones? You could have just waited for me to wander in."
It might have just been the theme of the dungeon, as unintelligent low-hit-point crowds are Spirit Guardians's best use case, but that is the case for fireball too.
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2015-07-01, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
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2015-07-01, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
I already mentioned it was a Str 16 Cleric, not 20. The Fighter gets 20 Str.
I haven't considered durability in these calculations. That's the only area where the Fighter has an edge. But having a few more hit points doesn't justify exclusion in a party when the other guy can do more sustained dpr with just as much aggro control (Spirit Guardians lowers enemy speed) and domain features and being able to pick up people who drop with Healing Words (it works just fine as a 1st level spell, so it doesn't interfere with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon spam).Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2015-07-01, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Originally Posted by thereaper
And that's assuming the attack does <10 damage. I've had single attacks deal up to 30 damage, which is impossible to maintain concentration against. Furthermore, it's a save against every attack...that could be 6+ saves in a single round for the fights I've seen. If 6 attacks land, the base save will be made against all of them 1.5% of the time.
Like Slipperychicken I think it's a good combination if you can manage to keep it going, but I don't know why the enemy wouldn't focus fire you the moment it gets going (meaning I don't think it's at all overpowered).
Originally Posted by pex
Originally Posted by thereaper
Originally Posted by GiantOctopodes
I'd be surprised if Spirit Guardian lasted more than a couple of rounds, let alone 10 minutes, because of the concentration weakness.
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2015-07-01, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
You estimates don't work because they ignore too much.
A human variant nature cleric is likely your best bet because the build doesn't take a feat to add shillelagh and avoids MAD that way, can add CON save proficiency, polearm master, and 2 ASI's towards WIS for decent combat without needing extra slots on spiritual weapon. You could use spiritual weapon instead and use the polearm master feat on warcaster to get that good concentration save. I would use polearm master so you have some slots for other spells, at least a few prayers of healing that way.
Weapon damage would be d8 but WIS would be 20 to cover both spells and melee attacks, and you get to choose bonus damage type, and keep a shield.
That gives d8+5 For the attack action, d4+5 For the bonus attack action, +2d8 if either of them hit, and 18 DC for spirit guardians at 14th level.
5% crit 2d8+5= 0.7
60% normal 1d8+5= 5.7
5% crit 2d4+5= 0.5
60% normal 1d4+5= 4.5
5% crit 4d8= 0.9 (tad off but close enuff)
82.75% 2d8= 7.45 (tad off again)
Estimated DPR at 65% accuracy = 19.75 plus spells.
Assuming +0 on the save would be 85% full damage + 15% half damage.
For example, 3d8 would be 85%*3d8+15%*3d8/2 per target per round less ~19.75 for the encounter after losing first round attacks, and with decreasing benefits each round enemies die. Over a 4 round encounter averaging 2 targets per round adds ~20 DPR to the encounter for ~39.75 but vs single target encounters would be about ~7.55 for ~ 27.3 DPR.
A battlemaster with a halberd, GWF, GWM, polearm master, and 20 STR using precision attack to prevent 3 misses per short rest looks like this...
3*5% crit 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 4.14
3*35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 22.37
14.25% crit bonus attack (approx)
5% crit 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.23
35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 1.06
85.75% normal bonus attack
5% crit 2d4+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.94
35% normal 1d4+10+5 (rerolls) = 5.55
Estimated DPR before maneuvers and action surge: 34.29
Action surge (1/short rest) assuming 2 4-round encounters:
.125*3*5% crits 2d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 0.52
.125*3*35% normal 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 2.8
5 maneuvers per short rest, 3 on precision attack, 2 on rider attacks (d10's):
.125*3 * 1d10+10+5 (rerolls) = 8.0
.125*2*5% crit 2d10 (rerolls) = 0.16
.125*2*95% 1d10 (rerolls) = 1.5
Estimated DPR on the sample fighter: 47.27
In a 7th-level slot, just the spirit guardians is doing about the same damage as the fighter if 2 targets exist for 4 rounds. In all cases, either has peaks and shine moments, and the fighter is generally more damage and better key target damage.
The next argument is likely whether the cleric at ~90% of the fighter damage is badwrongfun even though combat is more random than that, almost all spells are going to damage, both have shine moments, and there are other differences than damage. ;-)
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2015-07-01, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
It's fine as a player spell, and I don't agree that the Fighter has been invalidated because a particular clerical build can sometimes throw out lots of DPR. Building the cleric to make Concentration saves involves two feats (Warcaster and Resilient(CON)), plus probably at least, maybe two ASI buffing Constitution. That's a big investment. After all that, a level 14 Cleric gets to save with advantage at +10 on the die roll, trying to beat the greater of 10 or half the damage taken. At level 14 an attack doing 30 or more points of damage per turn is not unusual; the cleric will miss a save against 30 (DC 15) one time in 25 (4%), and the odds drop from there; as his level rises, he'll get exactly one more bonus to his save when proficiency goes to 6, but the damage done by the monsters will rise; e.g., a copper dragon (CR 21) does 63 damage with its breath (31 DC so our cleric must roll a 20 on one of their two dice).
Where Spirit Guardians strikes me as OP is when used by a NPC against the party. An enemy that knows the party is coming can have SG up when they enter the room and move to engage while they are bunched up coming through the door. Ouchies.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2015-07-02, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
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2015-07-02, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
You also have more than 5-7 spell slots. Would you feel better then if it was instead a Paladin/Warlock, so their spells came back after short rests? The point remains either way that measuring offensive potential off a single round is a relatively meaningless way to approach it. Looking at DPR over anything less than 4-5 rounds is simply an incomplete picture of things, since regardless of how many rounds you expect them to engage in combat between short rests, it's not likely to be 1.
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2015-07-02, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
The standard listed in the DMG is to average the damage potential of the first 3 rounds of combat, assume everything hits (And it not saved against) and that AOE attacks land on two targets.
The Cleric's expected average damage per round under the conditions given to us by the book is: 47.3 (I posted the math in an earlier post within this thread).
A Battlemaster Fighter's average damage per round under those same conditions is: (8.33 x 20 + 300 + 6d12)/3 = 168.56 (Using a greatsword, GWF, GWM, Action Surge, and Superiority Dice)
I think that after looking at those numbers, it is pretty safe to say that the Cleric isn't rendering anyone obsolete.
In fact, if you look at the graph here, you can see that the Cleric's DPR that is assuming everything hits doesn't even compare to the actual expected damage of other classes (That takes into consideration miss chance for example).
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2015-07-02, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
You're missing a ton of variables though. Your damage is short range only, its able to be dropped via anything that drops concentration, it's a one trick pony.
I did a sustained DPR calculation earlier in a different thread (assuming a 3 encounters of 3 rounds then short rest x 3 adventuring day), and BM fighters come out on top (with Champion coming on top once they have to deal with greater number of encounters per short rest).
Spirit Guardians is not broken or OP. It just provides a method for a Cleric to keep up with that DPR (when he's not busy buffing other party members, or healing or whatever).
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2015-07-02, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?
Again, if anyone is convinced the cleric can out do the fighter....stop with the vague assertions and build an actual cleric. Pick a level, stats, feats, domain, etc and present the actual PC that is going to go out and make the fighter feel bad.
Otherwise folks are just bouncing around cherry picking whatever is needed for that example.