Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?

[thereaper]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).

[Shining Wrath]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).

Fair enough. The following are the CR 14 monsters:

• Adult black dragon
• Adult copper dragon
• Beholder (in lair)
• Death tyrant (not in lair)
• Ice devil

Assuming the monster decides to take out the guy with the always-on AOE spell first, and that you've closed to near the monster for the AOE to work, the monster might do as follows.

Either dragon is going to try Frightful Presence, with a CR of 16 against a Wisdom save. That's a good save for your cleric, so he saves with 5 (Wis) + 5 (Prof); he needs a 6 or more, so 75% chance of success. He's probably doing better than the Fighter at this.

When that doesn't work, breath attack for 54 points (either dragon), DC 18 Dexterity save for half. This is a normal save and a typical dump stat for clerics; you'll need to roll at least 17 in all likelihood, so 80% of the time you'll take the 54, and now must get a 27 on your concentration check to keep Spiritual Guardians active. That requires a 17 on one of two dice, so you have a 36% chance of success. In any event, you have 8 +3 + (13*(5+3)) = 115 HP; you're now down almost half your HP against a creature that can probably fly away and escape your AOE. Your cumulative chance of losing SG is .8*.64 = .512.

Therefore a CR appropriate dragon will probably blast you, force you to drop your SG, and fly away until the breath weapon recharges, and then ensure it hits you first, every time. A similar technique might be used against a melee fighter, but a ranged fighter is much stronger than the cleric here.

Against the Beholder, it looks at you with the central eye while it fights your friends. And again, it can fly away, and lair effects will not be your friend - your movement will be impaired and you'll be taking random eye attacks. A fighter won't like the lair effects, but won't care one bit about the central eye. A death tyrant will do similar things.

The ice devil is going to form a hemispherical dome of ice with you inside of it. It will take you a while to break out; in the meantime you are doing nothing. A fighter could be imprisoned in the same way but will probably do more weapon damage breaking down the wall; Spirit Guardians only attacks creatures and is of no help against the ice dome.

So I call it this way:

Fighter is clearly better against the Beholder and Death Tyrant, as the central eye stunt pretty much shuts down your bonuses.

Ranged fighter is clearly better against the dragons due to flight. Melee fighter we're looking at DPR, but you're still running a 50-50 chance of losing your SG each time the breath weapon comes online.

Ice devil it's a DPR question except for a slight advantage to the fighter escaping the ice dome.

[Gnomes2169]

... Well this one is going to involve a heck of a lot of time to go through (round by round), access to a monster manual to design level-appropriate encounters and taking into account chances of losing concentration. It will also require a fighter build, and since our cleric is going pure DPR, let's do the same with our fighter friend:

Variant human Fighter (battlemaster) level 14
20 str
16 con
130 Max HP

• Feats: Great weapon master, pole arm master, sentinel
• Fighting style: Great weapon fighter
• Equipment: Full plate, +2 halberd (appropriate for the fighter's level according to the DMG)
• Second wind: 1d10+14 HP/ short rest
• Action surge: 1/ short rest
• Extra attack: 3 1d10+7 attacks/ turn at +12 apiece (and 1 bonus 1d4+7 attack at +12 as well)
• Superiority dice: Five 1d10 dice/ short rest (will be used whenever they would be most effective)
• Maneuvers: Trip, reposte, menacing, precise, commander's (not going to be used here, as it burns both an action and bonus action, this two attacks/ round), maneuvering strike (again, not the most necessary).

The rest of this will require things that I do not have access to at the moment, so the rest is reserved for maaaaaath... Also, could I get the max HP of the cleric? Yes, it is important to the calculations. The cleric can't keep concentrating if they fall unconscious, after all.

Combat 1
Enemies:

Combat 2
Enemies:

Combat 3 (set here since after a long rest the party should have the most resources to expend)
Enemies:

Short rest 1 (here to see what the cleric and fighter regain before moving on)

Combat 4
Enemies:

Combat 5
Enemies:

Short rest 2

Combat 6
Enemies:

Combat 7 (this one includes a BBEG dungeon boss)
Enemies:

Final results

[Malifice]

Maneuvers: Trip, reposte, menacing, precise, commander's (not going to be used here, as it burns both an action and bonus action, this two attacks/ round), maneuvering strike (again, not the most necessary).

Ditch maneuvering strike for precise strike. It's a must have maneuver for GWM builds. It ups your DPR by over 25 percent if not more.

Toggle the -5/+10 GWM on. Then roll to hit. If you miss, expend a dice to turn it into a hit. If you hit, expend a dice to make it a menacing (or tripping) attack and add the dice to damage.

[Gnomes2169]

Ditch maneuvering strike for precise strike. It's a must have maneuver for GWM builds. It ups your DPR by over 25 percent if not more.

Toggle the -5/+10 GWM on. Then roll to hit. If you miss, expend a dice to turn it into a hit. If you hit, expend a dice to make it a menacing (or tripping) attack and add the dice to damage.

Precise was on the list, I thought?

As for GWM, nope, not keeping it always-on. I am finding actual monsters to attack (not just a set AC or HP total), so the -5/+10 will only be used when attacking targets it's advantageous against. (To be fair, for the most part it will be worth it with the fighter's attack bonus... But sometimes a high AC critter will show up, so we won't just have it always on)

[Malifice]

Precise was on the list, I thought?

As for GWM, nope, not keeping it always-on. I am finding actual monsters to attack (not just a set AC or HP total), so the -5/+10 will only be used when attacking targets it's advantageous against. (To be fair, for the most part it will be worth it with the fighter's attack bonus... But sometimes a high AC critter will show up, so we won't just have it always on)

From my experience you'll probably find it pays off even against high AC critters

Single attack w attack bonus +10, GWS, strength 20 and Glaive vs AC20 (GWM on, roll of 5 on sup die, menacing used on a hit, precise on a miss, fractions rounded down):

Roll:
1-9 (miss) 0 damage
10-14 (hit w precise) 21 damage
15-19 (hit w menacing) 26 damage
20 (crit w menacing) 39 damage

[(5x21)+(5x26)+(39)]/20 = 13.7 DPR

Vs AC20, GWM off:
1-4 (miss) 0 damage
5-9 (hit w precise) 11 damage
10-19 (hit w menacing) 16 damage
20 (crit w menacing) 29 damage

[(5x11)+(10x16)+(29)]/20 = 12.2 DPR

[Kryx]

There is a breakpoint based on an opponent's AC, but in general using gwm is mathematically better than not. There is a graph around here.

[Malifice]

There is a breakpoint based on an opponent's AC, but in general using gwm is mathematically better than not. There is a graph around here.

That graph doesn't take into account the benefits of the precise strike manouver.

The beauty of which is you can declare the manoiver after rolling the attack turning the miss into a hit.

If you do hit anyways, you instead declare a menacing or tripping strike and add to the damage.

[Kryx]

That graph doesn't take into account the benefits of the precise strike manouver.

The beauty of which is you can declare the manoiver after rolling the attack turning the miss into a hit.

If you do hit anyways, you instead declare a menacing or tripping strike and add to the damage.

Agreed - using GWM is pretty much always the best choice. With Precision it may always be the best choice.

[Xetheral]

The table is linked in my signature. For a fighter, barbarian, or other classes without a source of bonus damage, GWM can certainly be advantageous. For a rogue or a paladin, with immense burst damage potential, not so much.

Precise strike isn't included in the table as it's a niche (albiet common) case. Halfling rerolls, diviners, and lucky's interaction with disadvantage aren't included either.

Furthermore, the decision whether or not to use precise strike occurs after the attack roll, which complicates the analysis immensely and requires consideration of multiple cases. At a minimum, willingness to risk the die on a miss by x and size of the die varying with level both need to be taken into account, and they interact with each other. These extra dimensions mean presenting the data would require at least 3(7+9+11)=81 tables similar to the linked one to account for the varying permutations introduced by precise strike.

[Ashrym]

I've already done that, but I haven't put it all into one post, so I'll do so now, because I honestly would like to be proven wrong:

Level 14 Variant Human Tempest Cleric
Str 16
Con 16
Wis 20

Feats: Resilient(Con), Warcaster

Equipment: Fullplate, Greatsword

All 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slots reserved for Spirit Guardians
All 2nd and 4th level slots reserved for Spiritual Weapon

Remember, we're concerned with sustained dpr over the course of a day (which in this case means 7 battles, with an assumed 2 short rests per day and 3 rounds per combat); not nova. And since Spirit Guardians has aggro control properties (it slows enemies), any equivalent Fighter has to burn a feat on Sentinel to be comparable (so that they can hinder enemy movement as well).

VS AC 18 it gives this result....


2d6+3 @ 55% accuracy

5% crit 4d6+3 = 0.85
50% normal 2d6+3 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
79.75% normal 2d8 = 7.1775
weapon DPR*14 rounds = 194.985 damage

2 war priest bonus action attacks in 1 encounter without spiritual hammer
5% crit 4d6+3 = 0.85
50% normal 2d6+3 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
79.75% normal 2d8 = 7.1775
weapon DPR*2 rounds = 27.855 damage

6 guided strikes to prevent 6 misses
6*normal 2d6+3+2d8 = 114 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 4, 2d8+5 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 4d8+5 = 1.15
60% normal 2d8+5 = 8.4
lvl 4 DPR*9 rounds = 85.95 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 2, 1d8+5 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 2d8+5 = 0.7
60% normal 1d8+5 = 5.7
lvl 2 DPR*9 rounds = 57.6 damage

spirit guardians lvl 7, 7d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 7d8 = 28.35
10% save 7d8/2 = 1.575
lvl 7 DPR*3 rounds = 89.775 per target

spirit guardians level 6, 6d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 6d8 = 24.3
10% save 6d8/2 = 1.35
lvl 6 DPR*3 rounds = 76.95 per target

spirit guardians level 5, 5d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 20.25
10% save 5d8/2 = 1.125
lvl 5 DPR*6 rounds = 128.25 per target

spirit guardians level 3, 3d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 12.15
10% save 5d8/2 = 0.675
lvl 3 DPR*9 rounds = 115.425 per target

480.42 damage from weapon (336.887) and spiritual weapon (143.55) attacks and 410.4 damage per target from spirit guardians over 21 rounds, after spirit guardians runs out.
single target DPR = 42.42
assuming 2 spirit guardian targets on average total DPR = 61.96



against a level 14 fighter with polearm mastery, 20 STR, GWM, great weapon fighting style, and sentinel just because you required it, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, halberd, using -5/+10

3*5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 4.14
3*35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 22.365
//GWM attack bonus action @ 14.25%
5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 0.197
35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 1.062
//PAM attack bonus action @ 85.75%
5% crit 2d4+5+10 (rerolls) = 0.943
35% normal 1d4+5+10 (rerolls) = 5.552

DPR*21 rounds = 719.4506

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 12.43
9*35% normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 67.095
action surge = 79.525 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d10+5+10 (rerolls) = 319.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1118.476
DPR = 53.26


against a level 14 fighter with crossbow master, sharpshooter, 20 DEX, archery fighting style, and ritual caster druid because sentinel no longer matters, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, hand crossbow, using -5/+10

4*5% crit 2d6+5+10 = 4.4
4*45% normal 1d6+5+10 = 33.3

DPR*21 rounds = 791.7

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d6+5+10 = 9.9
9*45% normal 1d6+5+10 = 74.925
action surge = 84.825 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d6+5+10 = 277.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1154.025
DPR = 54.95


################################################## ################################################


Same scenario, VS AC 16 instead of 18, +1 weapons available (80% base accuracy), cleric first


2d6+3 @ 65% accuracy

5% crit 4d6+3+1 = 0.9
65% normal 2d6+3+1 = 7.15
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
84.5% normal 2d8 = 4.5
weapon DPR*14 rounds = 231.77 damage

2 war priest bonus action attacks in 1 encounter without spiritual hammer
5% crit 4d6+3+1 = 0.85
65% normal 2d6+3+1 = 5.0
5% crit 4d8 = 0.9
84.5% normal 2d8 = 4.5
weapon DPR*2 rounds = 33.11 damage

6 guided strikes to prevent 6 misses
6*normal 2d6+3+1+2d8 = 120 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 4, 2d8+5 @ 75% accuracy

5% crit 4d8+5 = 1.15
70% normal 2d8+5 = 9.8
lvl 4 DPR*9 rounds = 98.55 damage

spiritual weapon lvl 2, 1d8+5 @ 75% accuracy

5% crit 2d8+5 = 0.7
70% normal 1d8+5 = 6.65
lvl 2 DPR*9 rounds = 66.15 damage

spirit guardians lvl 7, 7d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 7d8 = 28.35
10% save 7d8/2 = 1.575
lvl 7 DPR*3 rounds = 89.775 per target

spirit guardians level 6, 6d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 6d8 = 24.3
10% save 6d8/2 = 1.35
lvl 6 DPR*3 rounds = 76.95 per target

spirit guardians level 5, 5d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 20.25
10% save 5d8/2 = 1.125
lvl 5 DPR*6 rounds = 128.25 per target

spirit guardians level 3, 3d8 @ 90% accuracy
90% fail 5d8 = 12.15
10% save 5d8/2 = 0.675
lvl 3 DPR*9 rounds = 115.425 per target

549.58 damage from weapon (384.88) and spiritual weapon attacks (164.7) and 410.4 damage per target from spirit guardians over 21 rounds, after spirit guardians runs out.
single target DPR = 45.71
assuming 2 spirit guardian targets on average total DPR = 65.26



against a level 14 fighter with polearm mastery, 20 STR, GWM, great weapon fighting style, and sentinel just because you required it, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, halberd, using -5/+10

3*5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 4.29
3*50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 33.45
//GWM attack bonus action @ 14.25%
5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 0.204
50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 1.589
//PAM attack bonus action @ 85.75%
5% crit 2d4+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 0.986
50% normal 1d4+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 8.361

DPR*21 rounds = 1026.467

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 12.87
9*50% normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 100.35
action surge = 113.22 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d10+5+10+1 (rerolls) = 334.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1474.187
DPR = 70.20. and much higher than the cleric's single or single plus bonus, better hit points, and better healing with the healer feat compared to the cleric only having 4 1st-level slots left.


against a level 14 fighter with crossbow master, sharpshooter, 20 DEX, archery fighting style, and ritual caster druid because sentinel no longer matters, and the healer feat on a variant human
battlemaster, hand crossbow, using -5/+10

4*5% crit 2d6+5+10+1 = 4.6
4*60% normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 46.8
DPR*21 rounds = 1079.4

3 action surges add 9 attacks, no bonus attacks
9*5% crit 2d6+5+10+1 = 10.35
9*60% normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 105.3
action surge = 115.65 damage

15 misses prevented by precision attack
15*normal 1d6+5+10+1 = 292.5 damage

over 21 rounds = 1154.025
DPR = 70.84

A +1 weapon going with the AC 18 is still 62.2 with the hand crossbow, just to keep the comparison with a +1 weapon.


The hand crossbow fighter has ritual spells and better healing than the cleric, better hit points, better range, better burst damage, better focused damage, and better overall damage because not all AC's are that high and not all monsters have no bonus to the saving throw. The only thing the war cleric does in trying is fail at the damage and allows the fighter to also become a better healer than the cleric in the process. The cleric becomes more worse off as additional buffs based on attacks are added to the party or better magical weapons. I think at this point is safe to say the crossbow fighter can tell the war cleric in the example to go pound sand. ;-)

[charcoalninja]

I'll happily go toe to toe with this cleric 5 with my raging, Str 18, GWM, axe using frenzy barbarian 5.

You're getting three attacks a round back at you at +2 (with advantage) dealing 1d12+17 damage per hit.

Good luck making a concentration save against even one of those hits.

I have around 55 hit points. I should last about three rounds taking damage from the spell and your attacks.

Or an action surging, S and B BM fighter.

Bonus action to shove you prone. Followed by 4 attacks at +7 with advantage dealing 2d8+6 damage each.

Or a paladin smiting. Even a DW rogue at that level deals 5d6+4 DPR (conservatively) while halving the damage he takes back in return via uncanny dodge.

It's no more imprssive DPR than any of the above, and it's useable once per day at 5th level.

Doesn't look broken to me at all.

Problem is that the cleric sees you and opens up with Spirit Guardians. The next round he casts Sanctuary and every other round he spends his time moving and using the dodge action. Your level 5 barbarian now has to deal with save vs. WIS for 3d8 damage on the clerics round when he moves the aura overtop you, and save vs. 3d8 damage when you start your turn. Then you need to make a WIS save to even attack him in the first place, and if you succeed that one you're attacking AC 20 (plate plus shield) with dodge nullifying your advantage so you're trying to hit AC 20 with a mere +2. Your speed is halved so you're not ever going to be able to outrun this divine blender and all he needs to get this off is to keep Spirit guardians up for round 1.

Your Barb is now virtually helpless while the celestial guardians rip him apart with fireball level damage each round for the low low cost of 1 level 3 slot and one level 1 slot.

EDIT: while all this analysis may show that it isn't in fact overpowered I maintain that it is the single best spell in the game. In a dungeon a single cast can last you 2-3 encounters since it lasts up to 10 minutes.

[Shining Wrath]

Problem is that the cleric sees you and opens up with Spirit Guardians. The next round he casts Sanctuary and every other round he spends his time moving and using the dodge action. Your level 5 barbarian now has to deal with save vs. WIS for 3d8 damage on the clerics round when he moves the aura overtop you, and save vs. 3d8 damage when you start your turn. Then you need to make a WIS save to even attack him in the first place, and if you succeed that one you're attacking AC 20 (plate plus shield) with dodge nullifying your advantage so you're trying to hit AC 20 with a mere +2. Your speed is halved so you're not ever going to be able to outrun this divine blender and all he needs to get this off is to keep Spirit guardians up for round 1.

Your Barb is now virtually helpless while the celestial guardians rip him apart with fireball level damage each round for the low low cost of 1 level 3 slot and one level 1 slot.

EDIT: while all this analysis may show that it isn't in fact overpowered I maintain that it is the single best spell in the game. In a dungeon a single cast can last you 2-3 encounters since it lasts up to 10 minutes.

And I'm still where I was at the start; it's fine for a PC to use (DM can always scale add some HP to monsters), but it's a nightmare if the BBEG uses it and engages the party as they enter his lair and the SG start whuppin' on the squishy people.

[charcoalninja]

And I'm still where I was at the start; it's fine for a PC to use (DM can always scale add some HP to monsters), but it's a nightmare if the BBEG uses it and engages the party as they enter his lair and the SG start whuppin' on the squishy people.

Especially when higher level spellslots come into play. If a 6th level slot is used rather than making a Blade Barrier, you're looking at 6d8 damage twice a round for 12d8 additional damage per round Spirit Guardians is up and shreading people, that also halves the movement of everyone inside of it. It's a truely devistating spell, and while it may not be overpowered, it certainly isn't a good spell against Dragons as we've seen (the single HUGE damage high hit breaks concentration far too easily), against any encounter with more than a few foes it's a game changer.

[Xetheral]

Do we know for sure that Spirit Guardians can do damage on the caster's turn? Or does "enter the area" require voluntary movement by the target?

[Kryx]

Do we know for sure that Spirit Guardians can do damage on the caster's turn? Or does "enter the area" require voluntary movement by the target?

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...17883109826560

When a spell's description uses "enter" in relation to an AoE, the entering has to be voluntary only if the text says so.

It's a very crazy ruling imo. Calebrus illustrates how broken Spiritual Guardians can be in that exchange.

I would make the same decision as Calebrus - Enter must be voluntary.

[Slipperychicken]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...17883109826560


It's a very crazy ruling imo. Calebrus illustrates how broken Spiritual Guardians can be in that exchange.

I would make the same decision as Calebrus - Enter must be voluntary.

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.

[Kryx]

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.

It's not the same. As Calebrus outlined the extreme is that he could run by "over 100 creatures". Whereas 15 foot radius is up to 34 creatures if every square around you is occupied.

In reality it is significantly fewer creatures as well.

[SharkForce]

Either way, the creature is being damaged before it can act, since the damage happens when it starts a turn in the AoE.

as i understand it, the goal is mostly to prevent you from just running past every enemy on the battlefield to damage each of them, and then end your turn in range to damage an enemy you care about twice. i don't think anyone objects to you standing in range and getting the damage on targets that are in range when their turn starts (though i could be wrong).

[Kryx]

as i understand it, the goal is mostly to prevent you from just running past every enemy on the battlefield to damage each of them, and then end your turn in range to damage an enemy you care about twice.

Per Crawford they only save to be damaged once:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...21400713232385

Keep in mind that the spell forces a creature to save only once per turn, and the cleric has to maintain concentration.

If you use that ruling the issue is the higher amount of targets.

[SharkForce]

Per Crawford they only save to be damaged once:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...21400713232385

once *per turn* he said.

ie once on your turn when you're running around, once on the enemy's turn when you stand next to them and their turn starts.

[thereaper]

snip

Your math seems to hold. Thank you. I must not have realized how much Action Surge adds. I happily concede that there is still a reason to play a Fighter, and you therefore have my gratitude, good sir.

Out of curiosity, does the result also hold for a Greatsword Fighter (which I presume would have less damage due to lack of Polearm Master)?

[Kryx]

once *per turn* he said.

ie once on your turn when you're running around, once on the enemy's turn when you stand next to them and their turn starts.

Right... I kinda ignored the word turn as he used the wording to imply it couldn't be twice, but I guess he meant it couldn't be twice in the same turn (no going in and out of range 5 times).

Either way it's still a bad ruling with poor implications imo. Entering should be voluntary.

[numerek]

The standard listed in the DMG is to average the damage potential of the first 3 rounds of combat, assume everything hits (And it not saved against) and that AOE attacks land on two targets.
The Cleric's expected average damage per round under the conditions given to us by the book is: 47.3 (I posted the math in an earlier post within this thread).
A Battlemaster Fighter's average damage per round under those same conditions is: (8.33 x 20 + 300 + 6d12)/3 = 168.56 (Using a greatsword, GWF, GWM, Action Surge, and Superiority Dice)
I think that after looking at those numbers, it is pretty safe to say that the Cleric isn't rendering anyone obsolete.
In fact, if you look at the graph here, you can see that the Cleric's DPR that is assuming everything hits doesn't even compare to the actual expected damage of other classes (That takes into consideration miss chance for example).

I have made a copy of the graph fixed a few issues I saw with classes getting abilities before they should and fighters not getting extra feats. Then I added a Cleric tab, a lot of the dpr is affected by the "average in aoe" multiplier but really most people consider the first round of combat the most important and being able to affect 2 people in the first round that melee range is achievable is pretty easy and 6+ I would think would be fairly common. My cleric build would be.

20 cleric (light or knowledge for potent spellcasting, probably light since this is a damage build)
starting
8 15 15 10 16 8
ending
8 16 16 10 20 8
variant human
feats resilient constitution & dexterity, war caster, shield master, +4 wisdom
medium armor + shield
I am afb so I don't know if war caster works with sacred flame but that only adds a little to dpr anyway.

The cleric could also be a polearm master with shillelagh nature cleric will probably update to add that in at some point, though it should work out to be about the same.

[charcoalninja]

Right... I kinda ignored the word turn as he used the wording to imply it couldn't be twice, but I guess he meant it couldn't be twice in the same turn (no going in and out of range 5 times).

Either way it's still a bad ruling with poor implications imo. Entering should be voluntary.

The spell summons celestial spirits that harry and attack anyone within 15 ' of the caster unless the caster designates them as unaffected when they are summoned. Do you honestly think it makes any lick of sense for my summoned death machines to ignore an enemy near me because they tripped and fell too close, or were pushed? Do they flit around saying "oh gosh ol' chap you should be more careful. Here I'll wait until you're ready to eat your face."

No, it's like a cloud of angry bees. If you enter it regardless they sting the crap out of you.

[Giant2005]

The spell summons celestial spirits that harry and attack anyone within 15 ' of the caster unless the caster designates them as unaffected when they are summoned. Do you honestly think it makes any lick of sense for my summoned death machines to ignore an enemy near me because they tripped and fell too close, or were pushed? Do they flit around saying "oh gosh ol' chap you should be more careful. Here I'll wait until you're ready to eat your face."

No, it's like a cloud of angry bees. If you enter it regardless they sting the crap out of you.

They aren't angry bees, they are Guardians their duty is to protect, not to attack. They shouldn't attack some random enemy that is casually standing around simply because the Cleric moved closer to that person. A Guardian isn't a weapon, it is a protector.
Ruling that the Guardians can attack people based on the actions of the Cleric is like ruling that it is perfectly okay to attach Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound to the end of a staff and use it like a mace.

If everyone is running around using that stupid ruling, I don't really know why someone would make a thread talking about Spirit Guardians being OP, when they should really be making threads about Moonbeam being OP.

[Kryx]

Moonbeam is indeed significantly less balanced if you use this (bad) ruling, but it's smaller - 5 foot radius (15x15 or 9 squares). Still decently sized and can get a lot of creatures.

Forced movement is questionable, but moving spells over people to have them activate is just flatly OP imo.

[Giant2005]

Moonbeam is indeed significantly less balanced if you use this (bad) ruling, but it's smaller - 5 foot radius (15x15 or 9 squares). Still decently sized and can get a lot of creatures.

Yes but the lesser AOE radius is easily countered by the massive speed in which you could move it, plus it doesn't require any feats to do so safely like Spirit Guardians does. The damage is better too.
Even without the AOE shenanigans, the spell would be immensely powerful as a single target by being able to hit two or more times per round. A level 2 Scorching Ray does 21 damage per round on average while a level 2 Moonbeam would do 22 damage per round on average - that AOE attack does more single target damage than the formerly best single target spell in the game and the difference increases significantly when cast with higher level spell slots considering Scorching Ray only increases 2D6 per level and Moonbeam increases 2D10 per level. Also, of course being able to repeat the spell constantly over the next minute is far superior to casting the spell and having it function only one turn.
This ruling turns Druids into the undisputed supreme nukers of the magical world.

[Kryx]

Yes but the lesser AOE radius is easily countered by the massive speed in which you could move it, plus it doesn't require any feats to do so safely like Spirit Guardians does. The damage is better too.

I agree 100%. The spell is significantly better abuse of the (bad) ruling.

[coredump]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.