An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[Anteros]

Clearly a mislead; everyone knows it was

Spoiler

Show

Bela.

But I do believe that it could be picked up on earlier. I believe the person in question said some things about the situation at the time. It ended up being who I thought, but I also thought it wasn't as big of a deal as everyone was saying at the time.

I think the problem is that Jordan expected us to do process of elimination and go with the simplest answer. Which is great for most series, but doing it in WoT will lead to a lot of bad assumptions.

[LokeyITP]

That wouldn't have been so bad.

The problem was years of interviews with conflicting hints. Then saying that there were hints in certain books which were actually misdirects at best (making the answer less likely to be selected).

RJ never said it was important to readers or the plot, it was just a puzzle to play with or not. It should have been important to the protagonists, that's the biggest problem (it gets a mention or two over the next half dozen books, that's it).

Spoiler

Show

Especially since Asmo had arguably the largest effect on the world outside Ishy (splitting the Aiel and that was just for a distraction, although Sammy made that situation worse also as a lark), and he also put up one of the best fights out of the Forsaken. So many of the things he did would have had the Last Battle over in a few minutes :)

[Anteros]

That wouldn't have been so bad.

The problem was years of interviews with conflicting hints. Then saying that there were hints in certain books which were actually misdirects at best (making the answer less likely to be selected).

RJ never said it was important to readers or the plot, it was just a puzzle to play with or not. It should have been important to the protagonists, that's the biggest problem (it gets a mention or two over the next half dozen books, that's it).

Spoiler

Show

Especially since Asmo had arguably the largest effect on the world outside Ishy (splitting the Aiel and that was just for a distraction, although Sammy made that situation worse also as a lark), and he also put up one of the best fights out of the Forsaken. So many of the things he did would have had the Last Battle over in a few minutes :)

Spoiler

Show

Well, it's not something the protagonists spend a lot of time worrying about, because they don't know he's dead in the first place. Rand thinks he just ran away.

[Psyren]

You're right, it kind of sucks that you can't read most of your own thread. OK, here's something non-spoilery: I always kind of liked this Shadar Logoth/Mordeth thing, how it was a "source" of evil that didn't come from Shai'tan. Two totally different flavors of evil, and they're NOT friends with each other, and they're both totally freaking scary.

Sanderson's word is that all evil comes from the Dark One, sadly. Hopefully just his terrible interpretation, or RJ changed his mind (since he is quoted differently in the interview database, I don't think so).

I don't get why this is a bad thing. It's the nature of evil to devour itself/get in its own way after all, this is a theme both of this book and many other fantasy works (D&D comes to mind, and Narnia and Diablo and ultimately LotR.)

I mean, let's hypothetically assume a scenario where Mashadar was indeed completely separate from Shai'tan, and then somehow grew powerful enough to take him down. All you'd end up with then is a new Shai'tan - from the perspective of anyone who wasn't pure evil, nothing would change.

RE: Darkhound usage:

Spoiler

Show

I always theorized that the wolves were keeping them in check via TAR, at least until Slayer/Isam got more active and started picking them off.

[Gnoman]

I've been doing a reread of the series, and it is amazing how many things I didn't catch the first four times I read it.

For example:

Spoiler

Show

It wasn't until this readthrough that I realized the full reason Aeil hate the Tinkers - previously I thought it was just because the Tinkers held to the Way Of The Leaf when the Aiel abandoned it, reminding the early Aiel of the vows they had broken. I somehow didn't catch that the Tinkers were descended from the first branching of the Aiel, when a large portion of the Aiel broke their vow to preserve the Aes Sedai artefacts and went off hunting the old songs. I also just now realized this is probably why the Aiel only sing battle-songs once they grow up.

[Traab]

I've been doing a reread of the series, and it is amazing how many things I didn't catch the first four times I read it.

For example:

Spoiler

Show

It wasn't until this readthrough that I realized the full reason Aeil hate the Tinkers - previously I thought it was just because the Tinkers held to the Way Of The Leaf when the Aiel abandoned it, reminding the early Aiel of the vows they had broken. I somehow didn't catch that the Tinkers were descended from the first branching of the Aiel, when a large portion of the Aiel broke their vow to preserve the Aes Sedai artefacts and went off hunting the old songs. I also just now realized this is probably why the Aiel only sing battle-songs once they grow up.

Speaking of them,

Spoiler

Show

the last time I remember reading about them was when perrin was trying to convince them of something, i forget what, but it was a violation of their beliefs in an attempt to help them survive I think. Iirc, it was described as amazing that even a taveren could manage to make them hesitate and be tempted to listen but they ultimately refused. Did "the song" or whatever it was they were looking for ever get found? What happened to them by the end of the series?

[Seerow]

Speaking of them,

Spoiler

Show

the last time I remember reading about them was when perrin was trying to convince them of something, i forget what, but it was a violation of their beliefs in an attempt to help them survive I think. Iirc, it was described as amazing that even a taveren could manage to make them hesitate and be tempted to listen but they ultimately refused. Did "the song" or whatever it was they were looking for ever get found? What happened to them by the end of the series?

Spoiler

Show

I don't recall their song ever being found. They kind of just got glossed over in the finale. They were working in non-combatant roles and I believe settled in Seanchan lands where they faced significantly less discrimination than the rest of the world.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Regarding speaking of them

Show

Their song did kinda get found, since Lews Therin Thelamon did know it, and used it in the last book to trick the Seanchen empress.

[Douglas]

For example:

Spoiler

Show

It wasn't until this readthrough that I realized the full reason Aeil hate the Tinkers - previously I thought it was just because the Tinkers held to the Way Of The Leaf when the Aiel abandoned it, reminding the early Aiel of the vows they had broken. I somehow didn't catch that the Tinkers were descended from the first branching of the Aiel, when a large portion of the Aiel broke their vow to preserve the Aes Sedai artefacts and went off hunting the old songs. I also just now realized this is probably why the Aiel only sing battle-songs once they grow up.

Spoiler

Show

There's a huge amount of significant historical origin reveals in Rand's Rhuidean sequence.

Mandein, talking with Aes Sedai and representatives of the Jenn Aiel: This shows the source of the prophecy of He Who Comes With The Dawn, and the origin of the Aiel custom of requiring their chiefs and Wise Ones to pass the test of Rhuidean.

Rhodric, talking with a representative from a local village that is allowing them to take water from their well: This village is the ancestors of what would eventually become Cairhein. In a world where every hand was turned against every other, where banditry and violent struggle over the scarce resources that survived the Breaking was the order of the day, this village alone offered the Aiel friendship and sharing. The Aiel remembered that deed well, and thousands of years later discovered the relationship between that village and Cairhein, and in thanks for it gave Avendoraldera and permission to cross the Waste freely for trade.

Jeordam, Rhodric's grandfather, meets a group of 5 Jenn who seek revenge for dead relatives: 2 of these Jenn are women, and this is the beginning of Far Dareis Mai, the Maidens of the Spear. It is also the origin of the standard Aiel weapon, the short spear, and there's a brief mention of the Tree(s) of Life.

Lewin, Jeordam's (grand?)father, finds a bandit camp where his sister and other kidnapped Aiel are held prisoner: This is the incident where the Aiel first break the Way of the Leaf, and the beginning of the split between Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Lewin makes the decision that swords are still forbidden, a tradition that survives to the end of the Third Age. Lewin's mother's response when she learns what he has done is the origin of the Aiel practice of putting on veils before killing.

Adan, Lewin's grandfather, watches helplessly as bandits carry off Aiel women: Some of the Aiel here decide to abandon the giant stockpile of objects of The One Power that the Aiel wagons are carting around, and instead seek safety and old songs of peaceful power. This is the origin of the Tinkers, and is why the Aiel call them Lost.

Jonai, Adan's father, meets some Ogier: Here we see the beginning of the Longing, see the original name of the type of tree that Avendesora is, and get a few bits of info on the status of the world. Ishamael being not fully trapped is mentioned here.

A younger Jonai enters the Hall of the Servants: In this sequence we see Callandor, we see the Aes Sedai who made the Prophecies of the Dragon, and we see the Green Man (his name is Someshta, and he is of a race called Nym). And here, at last, we see in full measure what the Aiel used to be, in the story of the death of the city of Tzora, and how they struggled and gave their lives - completely nonviolently - to buy time for others to flee. Perhaps most importantly in this scene, we see Aes Sedai entrust the Aiel with two Covenants - to keep the Way of the Leaf, and to keep the objects of the One Power safe. The Aiel broke the first, the Tinkers broke the second, and thus they each call the other Lost. Only the Jenn Aiel kept both, and they died out. As Jonai leaves, the Aes Sedai discuss plans to work with a group of young male channelers who have not yet gone insane; collaboration with this group will create the wards around Callandor and create the Eye of the World.

Coumin, father of Jonai, works in a field and is fascinated by some soldiers: Here we see The Song, what the Tinkers seek, in action. Then word comes of the strike on Shayol Ghul, and the successful sealing of the Bore, giving us a handy time reference. This is soon followed by a demonstration of scapegoating, showing how deep rooted hostility towards Aiel is in some people.

Charn, Coumin's great-grandfather, walks around a city: Here we see a brief demonstration of what Aiel were like waaaay back before the war, and how profoundly they were respected back then. And then the Bore gets drilled.

The last two scenes are more context for the other developments rather than specific origin scenes themselves, but overall there's a lot of history condensed into these few scenes.

[anjxed]

Spoiler

Show

I always see the second age as some sort of reference to the roman republic ie. The 3rd name and great works being done, then the breaking as the fall of the empire, knowledge lost ie. Travelling

Will be looking forward to updates :D

[LokeyITP]

Spoiler: Tua'th'a'n''' (Enemy Spy will actually meet these guys soon, yay)

Show

There never was a song that would bring back the AoL. There's seed songs and god knows what songs, but not one that does that.

Spoiler: On the DO

Show

That's a tougher one. Was hoping for more than just Satan (albeit Satan that's built into the world but doesn't have an opposing force of good--the wheel is neutral). I guess the fact that the main story turned out so bleh makes it annoying RJ spent 24/7 for decades on this schlock. Like I said, the story was already done better before his first drafts were made. (This is beyond the dumb need the DO in the mix to have free will Sanderson nonsense.)

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Tua'th'a'n

Show

They were newer searching for a song that brings back the AoL, they dont know themselves what sort of song they are actually seeking(or at least its not explained by them), only that its been lost and they are trying to regain it.

[Psyren]

One thing I will note is kinda cool about this thread's format - the further AES gets into the books, the less we'll have to spoiler

[Traab]

One thing I will note is kinda cool about this thread's format - the further AES gets into the books, the less we'll have to spoiler

Another 6000 pages and we will be halfway there! lol

[tonberrian]

I'm gonna have to do a quick reread of this series before An Enemy Spy reaches A Memory of Light. I haven't read that one yet.

I'm also waiting for some of the foreshadowing for events in this very book to pay off.

[Anteros]

I'm gonna have to do a quick reread of this series before An Enemy Spy reaches A Memory of Light. I haven't read that one yet.

I'm also waiting for some of the foreshadowing for events in this very book to pay off.

I think you have time.

[Feytalist]

Speaking of the world's history;

Y'all might enjoy reading The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, a reference book with a lot of information on the history of the world, the different countries and cultures and whatnot. It's pretty interesting, and has a lot of what we're talking about here neatly condensed. Not written by Jordan himself, although apparently he edited it. It's current up to book 5 or 6 I think (and so the OP might want to have a gander at it only after reading till there, at the least).

Apparently there's a Wheel of Time Companion coming later this year as well, which will probably be something similar, just more up to date of course.

[Malak'ai]

Speaking of the world's history;

Y'all might enjoy reading The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, a reference book with a lot of information on the history of the world, the different countries and cultures and whatnot. It's pretty interesting, and has a lot of what we're talking about here neatly condensed. Not written by Jordan himself, although apparently he edited it. It's current up to book 5 or 6 I think (and so the OP might want to have a gander at it only after reading till there, at the least).

Apparently there's a Wheel of Time Companion coming later this year as well, which will probably be something similar, just more up to date of course.

Ah, the good ol' BWB. Helps explain a few more things in detail. Also has some half decient artwork (as well as some real shockers) in it. I particularly like the portrait of Lanfear .

[Tomp115]

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler, but maybe a little

Show

It will soon be time for your first non-Rand POV

[Psyren]

Another 6000 pages and we will be halfway there! lol

Well, yeah

Speaking of the world's history;

Y'all might enjoy reading The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, a reference book with a lot of information on the history of the world, the different countries and cultures and whatnot. It's pretty interesting, and has a lot of what we're talking about here neatly condensed. Not written by Jordan himself, although apparently he edited it. It's current up to book 5 or 6 I think (and so the OP might want to have a gander at it only after reading till there, at the least).

Apparently there's a Wheel of Time Companion coming later this year as well, which will probably be something similar, just more up to date of course.

Why on earth would I read that when the Wiki is a thing and far more likely to be accurate?

And 90% of the time the fanart is better too.

[Mato]

Why on earth would I read that when the Wiki is a thing and far more likely to be accurate?

And 90% of the time the fanart is better too.

If you wait a week after it comes out, all the information in them will appear as citations on the wiki too.

[Feytalist]

...or you could, you know, physically own the book.

Weird people


The book was written "in-universe", as it were, and has a pretty amusing tone throughout. Along with some guesswork by the author. All that will be lost by going to the wiki. (Which is a slight problem I have with wikis of this sort; it tends to destroy the tone of the original work. Bloodless facts are... less useful in literary works of fiction.)


Anyway, it turns out the book is current up to book nine of WoT. Guess it contains more than I remembered.

[anjxed]

I thinkhe said somewhere that the book isn't really accurate because its supposed to be writtin by an Aes Sedai during the period.

[Feytalist]

Yeah, but it's sort of nudge-and-wink inaccuracies, as in "requests by this author for further clarification were unforthcoming" and so on. Jordan apparently didn't give the author all the facts, and told her to guess certain plot points for funsies instead.

And anyway, most of the book is accurate. The only real inaccuracies are with regards to

Spoiler

Show

the whereabouts and disposition of the Forsaken, and various Lost Age artifacts, Talents, creatures and so on.

[Psyren]

Bloodless facts are... less useful in literary works of fiction.

On the contrary, I'd say a clinical approach is even more useful for fictional works. They allow the community to point out all the instances of Unreliable Narrator within the work and all the contradictions that result, cutting through the confusion to what actually happened.

The perhaps unfortunate fact is that dozens of really dedicated fans are just going to have more brain power for this sort of thing than a lone author, especially when the original guy has passed away.

Another thing I like about this trend is that it forces such guides to differentiate by other means, such as offering better artwork. Before the internet and particularly the Web 2.0 revolution via the wikispace, only the most dedicated fans could compile this stuff alone and you'd almost always have to know them personally to get access yourself - so the author-written guides and encyclopedias like this didn't have to do much to sell to the fans. Now, a wiki can help you chapter-and-verse every single major and even not-so-major event in the series, so the data alone isn't enough anymore.

Now, to be clear, I'm sure I might pick up the book eventually - but there's no need for me to prioritize it when all the information I need out of it is available online, even without the bells and whistles of an in-universe tone. I certainly will if the art and humor set it apart.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 20: Dust on the Wind
Our heroes make their way through the city looking for the river. Thom and the hobbits Emond's Fielders have fallen behind Lan and Moiraine and when they try to catch up, a tendril of fog comes between them. It's Mashadar!

I'm not entirely positive what Mashadar actually is, but from what I can gather it's a manifestation of all the evil will that was in Aridhol before it's self destruction, turned alive by dark magic, probably of Mordeth's doing seeing as how it didn't kill him. Yet another never to trust a guy who's name is literally More Death. It's a non-sentient, eternally hungering force that seems to oppose the Dark One just as much as anyone else. Makes sense, since Aridhol was the Dark One's enemy.

Anyway, if Mashadar touches you, you are dead, and if Moiraine uses her powers to cut a hole through the fog it will attract the baddies, so the others have to find some other way. They all hesitate, but when Rand decides to be the firstg to move, they all follow him. Well, it turns out Rand isn't the best guide you could ask for because he leads them into a whole mess of trollocs. Our heroic heroes all flee like frightened mice.

Rand is on his own, being chased by trollocs, and then a Myrddraal joins them. This has turned out be a really lousy day for Rand. Oh, but it gets better, because Mashadar has decided to join the chase. Rand gallops between a gap in the fog that closes behind him. The Myrddraal, apparently having attended the Zapp Brannigan Academy of War, forces the trollocs into the mist and then goes in after them, and they all die horribly. It reminds me of that famous battle in World War Two when Patton drove an entire tank division off a cliff instead of finding a way around it. That's some inspired leadership right there.

Rand makes for the river and almost slices Mat in two when they surprise each other. They make it to the city gate and are almost out when Thom rides by with a small army of trollocs on his tail, shouting at them to ride faster.

And we have our first POV change! We follow Perrin as he slowly goes through the streets, trying not to attract attention. He runs into Egwene and they both make for the river. Trollocs chase them and Perrin rides straight into the river without realizing it. He swims to the river bank, dodging thrown spears and washes up on the bank safely. Egwene is not with him. Was she captured(possible) or killed(highly unlikely) by the trollocs? Or did she manage to get away? We don't know.

Anyway, enough of that. This is Rand's story and he'll be damned if he has to give up screen time for a second string protagonist like Perrin. He, Mat and Thom run, Mat and Thom killing a few trollocs on the way. They get to the river and need to choose a direction to run, if they choose the wrong way they might never meet up with Lan and Moiraine. They go downriver. As luck would have it, there's a boat conveniently located on the river. Our heroes jump onboard, surprising the slepping clue, who become even more surprised when the trollocs follow them. The crew scrambles to get the boat moving and keep the trollocs from climbing onboard. Rand is knocked to the ground by a trolloc and about to be skewered, but a trolloc's spear is no match for plot armor and boom swings around and knocks it into the water. Rand realizes how lucky he is and decides his good luck must be all used up. Now don't say that, Rand. You've still got thirteen and a half books to go. I'm sure you'll have plenty of narrow escapes and improbable coincidences to save you from certain death.

None of the crew were killed, but the boat has suffered some damge, and the night sentry is calling Rand a sneaky Darkfriend to cover his own butt after being accused of sleeping on the job, which he was. The captain doesn't believe that, but he does take them to his cabin to interrogate them. Thom tells him that Rand and Mat are hoping to be his apprentice gleemen, and proceeds to spin a tale all about their adventures dodging trollocs and dragkhar and myrddraal and other nasty things, casting himself as the daring and dashing hero. I get the feeling he doesn't intend this tale to be actually believed, but rather to be so fantastical that the listener would assume that the truth is far more mundane and not suspect what's really going on. The captain has had bad run-ins with trollocs himself recently, and after Rand and Mat pay him with their silver coins Moiraine gave to them, he agrees to take them to Whitebridge instead of throwing them overboard.

Rand looks over the back of the ship and worries about Egwene.

[Traab]

Anyway, enough of that. This is Rand's story and he'll be damned if he has to give up screen time for a second string protagonist like Perrin.

Ha. Haha. Hahaha. HAHAHAHA! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

[Anteros]

...or you could, you know, physically own the book.

Weird people


The book was written "in-universe", as it were, and has a pretty amusing tone throughout. Along with some guesswork by the author. All that will be lost by going to the wiki. (Which is a slight problem I have with wikis of this sort; it tends to destroy the tone of the original work. Bloodless facts are... less useful in literary works of fiction.)


Anyway, it turns out the book is current up to book nine of WoT. Guess it contains more than I remembered.

I second not checking the wiki until at least your second read of the series. It's just going to ruin all the guesswork and surprises, as well as the "magical" aspect of the setting which is like half the draw of this series.

Maybe once you're deep into the series it can be useful as a refresher, but for now you're not supposed to understand what a lot of things are. The books are written to give you the knowledge as the characters learn it and adding an outside wiki is going to cause you to miss a lot of the experience.

[anjxed]

Ha. Haha. Hahaha. HAHAHAHA! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

In it for a rude beginning lol

[Gnoman]

Out of curiosity, An Enemy Spy, which edition of the books are you reading? The paperbacks of at least the earlier books have some frankly hilarious typographical errors (as in, letters between lines and halfway across the page from where they're supposed to be).