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2015-07-27, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
The GM banned full casters, and is expecting a "high power" game...and doesn't like optimization. These seem somewhat contradictory...But I am interested in the premise of the campaign, so I still want to at least give it a go for a session or 2.
He banned full casters, so it's unlikely I'll be able to use the...Tome of Battle?... as well as that new martial book thingy, but I'm asking if I can, anyway. Just in case they aren't allowed, what are some "strong" things that aren't like "optimized" (probably meaning, he doesn't want too many things that just stack on top of each other, is what I'm taking away from it).
I think I wouldn't mind playing a Bard, as far as Core is concerned, though I'm open to suggestions. The race I'm going to be playing will have a heavy focus on Dex, and free Weapon Finesse, which makes me think I should go rogue, but I'm not sure. I hear it's not exactly...good.
As well, how could I possibly get as many attacks as possible out of a single natural attack (like a bite)? Failing that, can someone point me to a grappling guide book. Grappling can't possibly be seen as optimized, even when it's optimized, so I think I could go for that.
EDIT: Level cap of 6; every 5000 xp earned past that point may be spent on epic feats.Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 10:30 AM.
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2015-07-27, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Ask about Tome of Battle. They're not casters, and they're not as powerful as casters, so it's both adhering to the spirit and the letter of the rules.
Binders (from Tome of Magic) can be quite good, especially with the summon-anything Web vestige.
Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 is a decent substitute for an Artificer.
Changeling Ranger 4 / Warshaper 4 / Chameleon 10 is fun.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2015-07-27, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Australia
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Well, tome of battle shouldn't be banned since they are around bard level of power. As for high power.... best you can get without full-casters is probably mid-power options like bard, binder, beguiler, dread necromancer, and psychic warrior.
Spoiler: Old Avatar by Aruiushttp://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q56/Zeritho/Koboldbard.png
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2015-07-27, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 06:40 AM.
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2015-07-27, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 07:04 AM.
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2015-07-27, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Staggering Strike(from Complete Adventurer) makes foes hit with a melee sneak attack have a Fort Save(DC scales with damage) or be staggered for 1 round. Works well with ToB classes.
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2015-07-27, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 07:22 AM.
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2015-07-27, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- Below sea level
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
I second the warlock suggestion since it's not too powerful, but can contribute more then enough (when built right around versatility instead of damage). As a matter of fact, for tips you can look here...
other great options are shadowcaster (tome of magic), though a full caster, doesn't nearly get so much spell and uses as you'd think. And maybe try some meldshaping or psionics...Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2015-07-27, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
I've considered those, but they both kinda feel a tad lackluster, with Warlock edging quite a bit ahead.
On an unrelated note: is Inhuman Reach good for gaining +5 ft of natural reach for a -1 to melee attack to-hit rolls? (I'm already probably going to pick up Aberration Blood for the grapple bonus, so consider it to not have a feat tax, but I might like the reach in case grappling really isn't a good option, such as the enemy being bigger than me, or there are too many enemies.)Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 07:59 AM.
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2015-07-27, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Shadowcaster seems like the opposite of what he wants -- it is a full caster, but it's terribly under-powered.
One nice trick with a Warlock is to go Warlock X / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3.
It's got some hitting power, but it's not as flexible as a straight-up Binder.
Could be. What's the rest of your build?I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2015-07-27, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
I'm surprised no-one's said Psion yet.
Alternatively, Binder with access to the online vestiges approaches sorcerer levels of power.
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2015-07-27, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
What does he mean by Full caster? So far I see quite a few suggestions that are full casters. Bards included. Is he aiming more for fixed list, no 9's kind of casting? In a campaign like that I would probably just go charger barbarian or hulking hurler. Wildshaping Ranger would do quite well. If you're allowed Templates turn into major turning points for power. Feral, Saint and Dark Creatures are amazing templates to get. LA heavy races also turn into some more powerful options.
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2015-07-27, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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- Austin TX
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Martial Monkn pulling from the Commander Fighter list for Leadership at level 1. Bard and White Raven from there to boost your followers. Would also suggest a different race, Magic Blooded Unseelie Lesser Assimar in this case for +6 to Cha. Nix the Unseelie and go Draconic levels for a different flavor if you wish.
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2015-07-27, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Artificier? It's not a caster but get's access to all the caster goodies (because it can craft magic items without casting spells, gets magic items creation feats as bonus feats and doesn't have to burn XP to craft items) as long as you get anything close to WBL.
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2015-07-27, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
I think he means no casters that can get level 9 spells. Not positive, but I think so. And yeah, those templates are pretty amazing. Dark maybe not so much sense we can already get Hide in Plain Sight via Chameleon. I do like how a Saint's damage reduction is penetrated by evil...OK, great, so the best value for your buck then would be to instead fight good creatures, right? lol. Meh. Don't think I'd pick up Saint. I don't like the fluff of it. Feral makes sense for my character, so I'd see if it'd be allowed.
Last edited by SangoProduction; 2015-07-27 at 08:48 AM.
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2015-07-27, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Australia
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2015-07-27, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
They were just general recommendations for cost to value of template. Other recommendations depends on source availability.
Arctic (dragmag 306), Half Minotaur (313), Mineral Warrior (Und), Unseelie Fey(compendium), Phrenic(XPH), Draconic(RotD).
There are other templates that have LA: - ; but I doubt you will be able to get approval for them.
As for other classes. Duskblades and psychic warriors are great gish in a box. Psy wars have the famous king of smack builds. Great for High powered games while being pretty simple in terms of optimization plus talashora monk/psy warriors make great grapplers.
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2015-07-27, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
OK. Apparently "levels" stop at level 6, and instead after that point every 5000 xp can be spent on epic feats...ok....not sure how I feel about that.
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2015-07-27, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Oh, you're playing E6! That changes everything.
If that's what you're doing, I would highly, highly recommend that your GM look at either Rizban's or Gnorman's E6 compendium as they're classes INTENDED for E6 play, while ordinary classes aren't. In all honesty, I would recommend Gnorman's stuff over Rizban's. Gnorman's classes are more "plug and play", while Rizban's are more for the optimiser.Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar
Ponytar by Dirtytabs
Originally Posted by DudeWhyAreAllTheNamesTaken(Imgur)
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2015-07-27, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
Oh, well, then, Tome of Battle immediately wipes the floor with most casters in E6. It's basically what happens when you take a Magus, give it full BAB because you can, make it a bit stronger with the kind of spells it gets, let it recover its spells faster, and declare it's Totally Not A Spellcaster Guys.
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2015-07-27, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
E6 doesn't change much at all, since most classes are either front-loaded and work fine (like Monk) or are loaded at all levels (like Wizard).
Really, the only change E6 introduces that matters is level adjustment being absorbed into point buy. This lets you do things like pick up templates which amortize the PB loss with a little extra on top, so much of the time it's worth it to pick up an LA+1 or LA+2 race.
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2015-07-27, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2015-07-27, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
E6 converts level adjustment from "you lose levels" to "you get less PB." So a normal character is supposed to get 32PB, a +1 LA character gets 25, a +2 LA character gets 18, and so on. If you choose a race with good ability score modifiers, you can break even or even end up ahead, plus a little extra in terms of racial abilities.
For example, a mineral warrior gets +2 to STR, +4 to CON, and -2 to the mental stats. For a melee tank who wants to boost his CON as high as possible, this is a great deal. He loses 7 points of PB for the +1 LA, and the -6 mental stat penalties cost 6 points to cancel out. But he only has to put 14s into STR and CON (a 6-point value each) to get a 16 (a 10 point value) and an 18 (a 16 point value). In total, his positive adjustments save him 14 points, 1 point higher than the 13 points he sacrificed to become a mineral warrior and cancel out its drawbacks. Plus he gets cool features on top!
Of course, this still predisposes a character to his race's path of least resistance, and mineral warrior is an exceptionally powerful template, but this works just as well with other ones.
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2015-07-27, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed
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2015-07-27, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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Re: High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed