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2007-05-05, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Unless your opponent is armed with a bouncy rubber ball.
Soon certainly didn't think that one through, that's for sure! You'd think the guy would have known about his own class's will saves better.
On that note, can someone tell me why a class based around religious devotees to extreme causes and super strict honor and discipline codes has such crappy will saves? D&D must have some pretty poorly thought out game mechanics if a class specifically devoted to honor, loyalty, faith, and discipline gets swayed so easily by symbols. In fact, I think a better punchline for the Saphire slaughter strip would have been Xykon saying "It's almost like the universe is trying to force some form of arbitrary balance between those who can bend reality to their will and those who can not, but FAILED MISERABLY!"Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 12:22 PM.
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2007-05-05, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Paladins are supposed to have high saving throws. They have all around even stats and they get to add their charisma to all their saves.
If you are outclassed, though, you are outclassed. Xykon was just way too high level.Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 12:40 PM.
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2007-05-05, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- K-W, Canada
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
You have to willingly commit acts against the Code or for Evil to Fall.
The suicide in this case traces to Japanese honour, which I've never really understood entirely. But I'm fairly certain she was wrong to kill herself right there. Her first task was to guard the gate, so she should have used her moment of lucidity to attack Xykon. Then, once she had won, she then kills herself to regain the honour she lost in attacking her allies.
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2007-05-05, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 12:45 PM.
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2007-05-05, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Yeah, the whole, "killing-yourself-so-you-don't-get-captured," is a lot less meaningful when your corpse could be animated and your shade can be talked to. Necromancy just screws everything up.
While most PC paladins do have rather good saves overall but these where NPC paladins so even with charmisa bounus to saves they had little no chance a making these saves vs a lvl 20 lich, they had lost before that battle began.
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2007-05-05, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Paladin is a offset of the Fighter class and so it inherited the Fighter class good saving throw being a fortitude save.
Divine Grace allows paladins to add their Charisma bonus to all saving throws , since Paladins also can have access to divine spells they end up making up for their poor will saves progression table with their stats bonus, the only save they will likely have poor is their reflex save since they have no much reason to have much of a dexterity.
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2007-05-05, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
HUMANS....... ARE....... SUPERIORRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But she was naked! And all... articulate!!
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2007-05-05, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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2007-05-05, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Yeah, I always found that to be a little weird. And since we're on the subject, I think there's a few other things that paladins should have. Zone of truth ought to be added to their spell list and they should have the Gather Information and Sense Motive skills as class skills. They are supposed to be able to hunt down evil but be merciful and careful about who they strike down. It strikes me as odd that they don't have the spells and skills to do this properly.
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2007-05-05, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Av by Smuchmuch
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Erm... they're not supposed to be invincible unkillable machines; If they had high will save, Xykon simply would've used something requiring reflex save. Frankly, it doesn't matter what he would've used - someone would whine about it. Reflex? Hey, they're warriors, with lots of exercise, using two blades, they should've got nice DEX. Fortitude? How about... Well, you got the picture. Everyone has at least 1-2 dump stats, unless someone cheated when they rolled character. They're just warriors with a bit of their god's blessing, not terminators.
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2007-05-05, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Yes, I'm fairly certain she was quite capable of logical thought in the six seconds of normal thinking she had after killing her compatriots.
By the way, she couldn't have won against Xykon. He'd have just laughed and cast another spell to finish her off. He totally outclasses everyone. On top of that, she's only got a fifty-fifty chance of being able to attack him at all (30% chance to just babble randomly and 20% chance to run away) until Xykon actively attacks her first.
It's not so much about the military effects of being captured as it is about the guilt and shame of killing all your fellow soldiers so that the lich sorceror has clear access to the tool he needs to take over the world.
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2007-05-05, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
True, Paladins are not unstoppable killing machines and in fact the Paladin class does depend on its mount.
This is not about dump stats, take the Monk class for example that have all saves as good saves but have problems in their own.
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2007-05-05, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
High saves wouldn't make them invincible unkillable machines. It'd just remove the silliness of a class CENTERED AROUND HONOR, FAITH, AND LOYALTY from being mentally swayed.
Storyline-wise, a paladin is supposed to be the most insanely DISCIPLINED mental mind there is in the ENTIRE world, and that's BEFORE you take into account the divine hold their gods have over them (of which D&D only shows by their immunity to fear, which by itself makes no sense because why would the gods make their servants immune to fear but not to any other form of mental sway?). This is a class that is REQUIRED to FOLLOW AN HONOUR CODE THEIR ENTIRE LIFE or else the gods will forcefully strip away their powers. You'd think such a mind would be near impossible to charm or sway under any condition.
The fact that D&D rules allows them to have more than half a chance to be mentally swayed, even by a level 20 lich, shows that D&D has taken absolutely no consideration into the whole storyline and theme of the paladin class and no idea what the definition of "discipline" is (and obviously has never had any of its designers in the actual military).
This isn't about mechanics. This is about HUMAN NATURE and the blatant obvious fact that D&D mechanics as they are make no sense in terms of the D&D background given to paladins and how they'd apply to human nature. In fact, it's practically an insult to the human mind and self-awareness that people who dedicate their entire lives to following a ludicrously disciplined code can be so easily hypnotized, no matter how good the hypnotist is.Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 02:07 PM.
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2007-05-05, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
My own personal interpretation of their fear immunity has been that they still feel fear but are so courageous that it doesn't affect them. Paladins are supposed to be courageous more so than any other class after all, it's part of what they are, and you can't have courage if you don't feel fear.
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2007-05-05, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
You can't have discipline if you're committing acts of randomness (IE, the type of insanity from magical insanity), either.
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2007-05-05, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
This is magic we are talking about. Magic. How else could you explain how a big burley barbarian who never backed away from a fight in his life would turn around, run, and scream like a little girl after having Cause Fear cast on him? It simply isn't the same as normal fear or normal insanity.
The reasons paladins are immune to fear is because they literally radiate bravery. I mean, it's called, Aura of Courage, after all. It's not because they went through years of mental conditioning, or anything. If someone cast fear on them, the aura would counter it, just like any other countercasting.
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2007-05-05, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
So Deus Ex Machina, then? (which is the very definition of magic, especially as you've described it). Hmm... No wonder why lots of people were so disheartened by that strip. It works in the context of "magic" ("a wizard did it." Literally!) but is completely against all logic of human emotion and mind. And makes me look down on D&D as a whole anyways. Because disguising Deus Ex Machina as "magic" and saying "it's allowed because it's magic" in the most plot-related of things (emotion and mentality) shows that D&D makes for absolutely horrible storytelling in this regard (this is a criticism of D&D, not Rich, who was simply legitly going by said flawed D&D conventions, ignoring the question of legality of using a seal on a bouncy rubber ball). If people criticize authors for using such cheap cop outs as "A wizard did it" deus ex machina in other storylines, I hardly see why D&D itself should be exempt from such criticism for having such a blatant example of that built in.
I can take magical undead and magical monsters, but things like magical mental suggestion in blatant contradictions against the sheer CORE of the character concept to the point where it would legitly force such OOCness legitly in a system that's supposed to be primarily storytelling-based indicates a very poor system. Like when people in storyline roleplay writing clubs use beer and alchohol as blatant excuses to get their characters to act completely OOC, except worse.
And it IS "legal OOCness". As Redcloak himself stated, Fear is a natural human emotionl. Absolute chaos, however, is NOT and is dependent on your personality (which is why there's a Chaos Law alignment but not a Fear Courage alignment in D&D)
Well, "It's MAGIC!" has certainly done a lot to convince me that D&D is a fantastic storytelling module.Last edited by TiamatRoar; 2007-05-05 at 02:45 PM.
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2007-05-05, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
I was trying to convince you that D&D is a fantastic storytelling module? I certainly don't recall doing that.
Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2007-05-05 at 02:45 PM.
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2007-05-05, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
You might not have been aware of or actively trying to, but it has been the theme of this thread so your attempts to counter argue were indirectly attempting to do that.
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2007-05-05, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-05-05, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Some people have a time getting their heads around this:
Just because you're good, holy, say your prayers before you sleep and recycle does not mean that you're not going to be humiliated and slaughtered by an immensely powerful Lich. Being 'good' doesn't actually automatically earn anyone a heroic death. I'm glad Rich realizes that.Last edited by Grasilich; 2007-05-05 at 03:05 PM.
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2007-05-05, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- In the Playground
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
No thats monks...Paladins aren't disciplined mental minds. They are disciplined in terms of their actions.
This is a class that is REQUIRED to FOLLOW AN HONOUR CODE THEIR ENTIRE LIFE or else the gods will forcefully strip away their powers. You'd think such a mind would be near impossible to charm or sway under any condition.
The fact that D&D rules allows them to have more than half a chance to be mentally swayed, even by a level 20 lich, shows that D&D has taken absolutely no consideration into the whole storyline and theme of the paladin class and no idea what the definition of "discipline" is (and obviously has never had any of its designers in the actual military).
This isn't about mechanics. This is about HUMAN NATURE and the blatant obvious fact that D&D mechanics as they are make no sense in terms of the D&D background given to paladins and how they'd apply to human nature. In fact, it's practically an insult to the human mind and self-awareness that people who dedicate their entire lives to following a ludicrously disciplined code can be so easily hypnotized, no matter how good the hypnotist is.
um, self-awareness and following a code of honor shouldn't make your mind any more resistant to mind control, as I said above. It shouldn't matter what you do and what kind of moral codes you follow. Just because you are a really nice person, or always follow some method of living or another, however strong, should have no effect upon your susception to hypnotism. It should DEFINITELY help against people trying to convince you of something, you could often die for your code, but that shouldn't affect whether magic can suppress it or not.
It works in the context of "magic" ("a wizard did it." Literally!) but is completely against all logic of human emotion and mind.
And makes me look down on D&D as a whole anyways.
and saying "it's allowed because it's magic" in the most plot-related of things (emotion and mentality) shows that D&D makes for absolutely horrible storytelling in this regard
1. assumption.
2. incorrect assumption.
3. try playing dnd with a competent DM.
4. how is this "the most plot-related of things" unless ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS THAT AFFECTS THE PLOT is also "a most plot-related thing"
true. If somebody uses magic as a plot device, to fix any problems you can't figure out otherwise, then they are a bad DM. There are in fact GOOD DMs in dnd (who knew). Any good DM won't use magic as a deus ex machina, they will use it to add to their storytelling. It is pretty easy to avoid deus ex machina magic in your plot, although in a single battle like this? sure. At the level Xykon is at, he could have used a meteor swarm instead, and they'd all be dead. Would you call that a deus ex machina because it killed everyone? If so, then according to you dnd shouldn't include high level wizards. If not, then how is using a symbol of insanity on paladins any different, under the arguments I made above shredding your "code of honor = mental invincibility" arguments?Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-05-05 at 03:54 PM.
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2007-05-05, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Well said. If this had been some goody-two-shoes fairy-tale, where all the good guys have character shields, it would become a rather bland story pretty quickly.
I'm glad Xykon disposed of the paladines in the cruelest possible way, it ads flavour and tips the scales back to neutral after all the dead hobgoblins we have seen. Besides, Paladines killed Redcloak's family, so they only got what was comming for them.
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2007-05-05, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- A dungeon
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Shedding tears for NPCs who knew they were going to fight a lich sorceror many times too powerful for them to even slow down... strange. I'm a bit confused as to why they didn't cast protection from evil on themselves the second they saw him but only the 6th level plus paladins would be likely to have the ability to cast a spell. Their "high saves" are coming from the assumption they have really high charisma scores, which is never required in 3rd+ edition to become a pally. The highest their charisma bonus might be is a 15 giving them a whopping +5 to 8 given my rough estimate of the guild's overall power level. The save for the spell is going to be at least 22 and I when dealing with NPC vs. NPC combat just have them get average rolls for everything until the victor is determined since the PCs aren't there only the outcome matters.
But paladins aren't exactly the easy to get the drop on with detect evil, sense motive, zone of truth, dispel magic, and a bunch of free immunities a paladin is a great class for any player. NPCs who get mostly average stats, rarely get treasure, and have token value to the plot aren't quite as lucky.
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2007-05-05, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Newark NJ
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2007-05-05, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- In the Playground
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Protection from evil kinda sucks. Wouldn't have helped them at all in this situation. It's just like +2 on AC, +2 to saves, can't be possessed, and can't be attacked by non-good outsiders using natural weapons. That's all. Wouldn't really help against the 50 will saves vs the symbol of insanity they needed.
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2007-05-05, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
after seeing her suicide reffered to as seppuku ('ritual suicide') inseveral threads, or equated with it as in this thread,I feel obliged to mention something: that seppuku is ritual suicide. its just plain suicide if the person kills herself then and there, as seppuku involves a 2 day ritual, not to mention requiring permission from one's lord. Of course this is pretty much nitpickery since this isnt Japan..
I has Trophies!
Spoiler
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2007-05-05, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
It also protects you from Dominate spells and maybe Charm spells. The wording's a little vague, but Dominate's definately right out (technically, control from Dominate's all that's blocked--I think you can still get Dominated, you just won't obey any commands until the Protection wears off).
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2007-05-05, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- In the Playground
Re: Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable.
Symbol of Insanity causes insanity which causes confusion.
The spell confusion is a enchantment (compulsion) effect.
The spell protection from evil says:
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).
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2007-05-05, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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