Looking for system for my group... Recommendations?

[Bellberith]

I am looking for a system that is for the most part level-less. I don't want to be caught in the D20 game problem of my players wanting to be a higher level to gain cool abilities but as a consequence not be able to be challenged by nearly anything that isnt a demon invasion or god of some sort because they are level 20 (mainly a 3.5 problem.... but it applies to other level-based D20 systems to a lesser extent).

A system that is designed to be fluent with combat. Good hitting and dodging/blocking/whatever mechanics. Something like Shadowrun 5e but WAY more simple, or something like VtM but more balanced. (Overly complex systems like Shadowrun 5e and Exalted are a no-go... Not that Shadowrun 5e is too complicated in itself, but the book is so bloated and the rules are all over the place so its a chore to find anything. It turns off most would-be players instantly. Same with Exalted.)

I would like it to be a completely open sandbox kinda like Star Wars Saga, doesn't have to be sci-fi or a giant galaxy setting, but something where my players will have a nearly infinite amount of options to do things.

Being able to dodge/block bullets and sword or whatever is fine, and magic/psionics is also fine. But a non-heroic setting in the sense where if you get shot in the head you will probably die would be good too... (basically i dont want someone to have 300hp and get stabbed 40 times and not die.)

~Thank you for any and all recommendations.

I know what i asked might be a tall order as i havent found an answer yet, but im hoping there is something out there.

[hifidelity2]

my penny's worth

GURPS - OK can be a bit complex but it can do what you want - there are cinematic rules so you can make it as lethal / none lethal as you want

Other one is

Spacemaster / Rolemaster - although level based the critical system built into it does allow even lower level NPCs give the party pause to think even at reasonable level

[Yora]

Maybe look into Spirit of the Century? I think the rules have an SRD you can look up online.

[Anonymouswizard]

I am looking for a system that is for the most part level-less. I don't want to be caught in the D20 game problem of my players wanting to be a higher level to gain cool abilities but as a consequence not be able to be challenged by nearly anything that isnt a demon invasion or god of some sort because they are level 20 (mainly a 3.5 problem.... but it applies to other level-based D20 systems to a lesser extent).

A system that is designed to be fluent with combat. Good hitting and dodging/blocking/whatever mechanics. Something like Shadowrun 5e but WAY more simple, or something like VtM but more balanced. (Overly complex systems like Shadowrun 5e and Exalted are a no-go... Not that Shadowrun 5e is too complicated in itself, but the book is so bloated and the rules are all over the place so its a chore to find anything. It turns off most would-be players instantly. Same with Exalted.)

I would like it to be a completely open sandbox kinda like Star Wars Saga, doesn't have to be sci-fi or a giant galaxy setting, but something where my players will have a nearly infinite amount of options to do things.

Being able to dodge/block bullets and sword or whatever is fine, and magic/psionics is also fine. But a non-heroic setting in the sense where if you get shot in the head you will probably die would be good too... (basically i dont want someone to have 300hp and get stabbed 40 times and not die.)

~Thank you for any and all recommendations.

I know what i asked might be a tall order as i havent found an answer yet, but im hoping there is something out there.

Okay, add the word generic and you've basically described GURPS: a theoretically complex system that works off of 3d6 roll under rolls. If wearing armour you can probably survive a hit or two, but you've at least entered into the spiral of death where most hits either make you less effective or increase your chance to die. On average a PC should be out of the fight and possibly dead after a couple of hits unless lucky, and this is before you get into how damage multiplies after DR based upon damage type (still need to get pi+++++ past a GM). Combat is similar to Shadowrun.

If you don't know what to do character creation can take ages (and the sheet barely gives enough space for skills), but play is relatively simple.

Plus it let's you do a near infinite number of things.

It really is a Marmite system though (you'll love it or hate it), but I think it should be worth looking into.

Plus you can make hilarious characters, I have one that works by RAW because of what the Extra Attack advantage doesn't say (dwarf+extra attack 4+fast draw 16+barrel of rifles+gullible GM allows you to fire up to 5 single shot rifles with your primary hand in one second by making skill checks, any reasonable GM would limit you to 1 or 2 rifles).

[Eisenheim]

Fate core, a newer version of the system spirit of the century was built on, can do everything you want, though you'll have to get used to how it does combat fluency, which is different than D&D or gurps.

[Digitalelf]

BRP (Basic Role Playing) by Chaosium, is a good generic system that is skill-based instead of class or level based (though the purely optional "Classic Fantasy" supplement offers an optional class based system that you can use).

You can find the free BRP Quickstart rules HERE on PDF.

[Knaight]

GURPS sounds right up your alley, though it is a pretty rules heavy game. There are also a few other excellent options, starting with the ORE system, particularly the Nemesis and REIGN implementations. Nemesis is a free action-horror game with a really solid mechanical underpinning, not too much crunch (though it's not rules light), and some really cool features. It is also free. REIGN is a fantasy implementation of the same system which strips out the horror and adds in lots of organizational interactions and political intrigue. It is also not free. You also might like Legends of the Five Rings, which is a fantasy game heavily inspired by the history and mythology of Japan. Then there's Burning Wheel, which is an excellent fantasy game that is heavily inspired by Tolkien's work and does a much better job with it than D&D ever did. It's extremely crunchy, but the organization is actually pretty well done, as opposed to the mess that is Shadowrun organization.

Honestly, the biggest problem with your request is that it's still pretty broad. Feel free to narrow down to a particular genre, and we can probably come up with another few games that can work in it.

[Bellberith]

GURPS sounds right up your alley, though it is a pretty rules heavy game. There are also a few other excellent options, starting with the ORE system, particularly the Nemesis and REIGN implementations. Nemesis is a free action-horror game with a really solid mechanical underpinning, not too much crunch (though it's not rules light), and some really cool features. It is also free. REIGN is a fantasy implementation of the same system which strips out the horror and adds in lots of organizational interactions and political intrigue. It is also not free. You also might like Legends of the Five Rings, which is a fantasy game heavily inspired by the history and mythology of Japan. Then there's Burning Wheel, which is an excellent fantasy game that is heavily inspired by Tolkien's work and does a much better job with it than D&D ever did. It's extremely crunchy, but the organization is actually pretty well done, as opposed to the mess that is Shadowrun organization.

Honestly, the biggest problem with your request is that it's still pretty broad. Feel free to narrow down to a particular genre, and we can probably come up with another few games that can work in it.

I haven't tried GURPS but i hear bad things about it all the time. Is this all hate coming from people that are settled on their own games or legitimate problems with the system?

The Shadowrun combat systems are really cool, but like i said before the system itself is far too bloated and the rules are just a chore to find. I also love the setting of Shadowrun, but the cyberspace thing is a little meh.

Gritty medieval or D&D setting games are good too, but they tend to have a level system.

Basically anything with an great, intuitive combat system that has solid attacking/blocking/dodging mechanics, but players cant have 300hp and live through a point-blank nuke (hyperbole, but you get the point). And at the same time has the expansive world and/or universe with many things to do.

I am going to take a good long look at every system mentioned in this thread and make suggestions to my players and hopefully i find something. If there are more suggestions they are definitely welcome.

[kyoryu]

BRP in its various incarnations is worth a look.

Fate Core if you want a more 'cinematic' experience (and I can further explain what I mean by cinematic - you can have realistic cinema, after all). I'd definitely recommend Core over SotC.

GURPS is great, but can be heavy on the crunchy bits.

Burning Wheel is interesting. I'd actually recommend reskinning MouseGuard over BW, especially as an intro to the system.

Honestly, few games outside of d20-based ones have the incredibly amount of character advancement that you see in d20, if that's the major concern.

[Anonymouswizard]

I haven't tried GURPS but i hear bad things about it all the time. Is this all hate coming from people that are settled on their own games or legitimate problems with the system?

In all honesty, people seem to either really love GURPS or loathe it. The complaints are usually legitimate but overblown, as GURPS is to optional rules HERO (which it gets compared to) is to character creation. You only actually need the characters book to run a campaign, but the campaigns book is so well organised and useful that I recommend it, despite being 80% optional rules (as are most sourcebooks, the ones that aren't are world books or 'hack aspect X into what you want').

The Shadowrun combat systems are really cool, but like i said before the system itself is far too bloated and the rules are just a chore to find. I also love the setting of Shadowrun, but the cyberspace thing is a little meh.

GURPS has similar combat to Shadowrun (moreso 4e than 5e), but is far better organised. The basic combat rules are in one chapter, the next covers hex grids if you want them, and the next chapter features a load of optional but nice systems and ways to handle situations.

As a side note, I love Shadowrun, but if I was running it again I'd use GURPS and increase a Decker's reliance on passwords and social engineering. Might actually have a go at converting it sometime, and make Technomancers competitive while I'm at it. Shadowrun is awesome, but I own 5e which is clunky as hell in play because of the organisation.

Gritty medieval or D&D setting games are good too, but they tend to have a level system.

Basically anything with an great, intuitive combat system that has solid attacking/blocking/dodging mechanics, but players cant have 300hp and live through a point-blank nuke (hyperbole, but you get the point). And at the same time has the expansive world and/or universe with many things to do.

If you're willing to build or convert a world GURPS does this. It's mechanics for defence allows ganging up on someone to be effective, while still allowing a dodge with every action, plus the cost of extra actions means that most people will act once.

I am going to take a good long look at every system mentioned in this thread and make suggestions to my players and hopefully i find something. If there are more suggestions they are definitely welcome.

Cool, but remember:

GURPS if you want simulationist.
Fate if you want narrativist.

[Knaight]

I haven't tried GURPS but i hear bad things about it all the time. Is this all hate coming from people that are settled on their own games or legitimate problems with the system?

There are things that are absolutely amazing about GURPS and the GURPS line of books (particularly as regards splatbook research, which even the detractors generally admire). There are also things about GURPS which are intensely frustrating. How much these varying things matter to people varies, and so GURPS ranges from a beloved system to a despised one, with a distribution skewed a bit towards both ends.

[Kiero]

Maybe look into Spirit of the Century? I think the rules have an SRD you can look up online.

How can you, in good faith, recommend SotC to anyone, when the method of resolving the consequences of actions - Stress - is so awful? It's so bad the authors admitted such and came up with a host of alternatives, all of which are better than the method used in the rules as written.

[tensai_oni]

Mutants and Masterminds. Fate and related are okay but their combat resolution mechanics are too abstract for what OP is asking for.

M&M has simple, intuitive mechanics. The only bloat is how many powers are available, but that's not a problem if you play a game with limited/no superpowers, and even if you don't it's still something that comes up during character creation mainly.

In M&M you can go down from a single well-landed blow, if you are unlucky (but there are limited Hero Points that let you reroll that - and many other rolls too). Depending on the campaign and circumstances, that may mean knocked out or even dead. Bruises/injuries accumulate quickly, it's definitely not a system where characters can take millions of hits and still stand.

[Fri]

I'd recommend Legend of the Wulin for you to meddle to your setting if you're just asking for good combat system, since it's still the system with best combat system with intuitive dodge/parry/whatever but it's very tied to its setting (which is wuxia) and...

Something like Shadowrun 5e but WAY more simple, or something like VtM but more balanced. (Overly complex systems like Shadowrun 5e and Exalted are a no-go... Not that Shadowrun 5e is too complicated in itself, but the book is so bloated and the rules are all over the place so its a chore to find anything. It turns off most would-be players instantly. Same with Exalted.)

Legend of the wulin is one of the few rare system who manages to have rules even more bloated and badly placed/written than exalted, so that's a no recommend for me.

And this might sound crazy, but did you include Mutants and Mastermind in your d20 system list that you've tried for your game?

Yes, you say "you're insane, that's a superhero game, but..."

Sure, it has Power Level, but it's pretty abstract and open ended, so if you want a character with many abilities but low level you can absolutely do that. I mean, in DnD you have to be say, level 15 to be able to use 10 kind of spells and 5 kind of maneuvers, but in MnM, you can be level 5 and have 10 kind of spells with various use.

Second thing is, it's pretty easy to meld to any setting you want, and if say you want to do fantasy campaign and too lazy to meld the system yourself, you can just pick that fantasy campaign book and be done with it.

Third is about the "have 400 hp and survive point blank nuke" thing. I need for you to explain more what specifically you mean with this. But what I gather is you want characters who not have hundreds of HP that need to be chipped bit by bit before you can kill them? Basically, for hyperbole, you want characters to be able to be one shotted?

MnM characters don't have Hit Points, and the way their "health" work is that you roll "toughness" everytime you get hit, and if you fail bad enough you get knocked out. Everytime you success your toughness roll you'll get penalty for it though, so sooner or later after you get hit enough you'll get enough penalty that you're definitely going to roll low enough when you get hit. A good hit with lucky roll for the attacker and bad roll for the defender can definitely knock the defender down in one or two hits.

The thing against MnM is that it's easily breakable, and players and GM need to work together well on the characters so everyone have the same idea on the "power level" of the characters they make (not the statistical power level, but the meta power level). Also you need to be more involved in the system as the GM, since it's pretty "universal" so you have to tune it to your need.

Edit: and also it has bajillion of powers and feats that everyone have to choose for character creation, so there's that.

[kyoryu]

How can you, in good faith, recommend SotC to anyone, when the method of resolving the consequences of actions - Stress - is so awful? It's so bad the authors admitted such and came up with a host of alternatives, all of which are better than the method used in the rules as written.

The only real problem with Stress in SotC is that they defaulted to ten stress for characters, which makes conflicts take Way Too Freakin' Long.

In later games, with sane amounts, Stress and Consequences do a pretty good job of managing conflict length, both in making one-shot takeouts rare as well as preventing "padded sumo" attrition-fests.

[Bellberith]

Third is about the "have 400 hp and survive point blank nuke" thing. I need for you to explain more what specifically you mean with this. But what I gather is you want characters who not have hundreds of HP that need to be chipped bit by bit before you can kill them? Basically, for hyperbole, you want characters to be able to be one shotted?

For this its basically what i said in the original post. Its just a problem i have with the Level system for most games. By level 20 you could decide to have a picnic in the street and if a commoner tries to take revenge on you (because you just destroyed his town like the murder-hobo you are) and tries sneak up and attack. For some odd reason he was successful (this is an example, this particular situation probably would never happen) and stabs you in the head/slits your throat with a kitchen knife. But the kitchen knife deals 1d4~ damage and even on a crit deals 2d4. The commoner likely has no str mod. So even a level 4 character can survive it with minimal injury, but a level 20 wouldnt even feel it.

[Fri]

For this its basically what i said in the original post. Its just a problem i have with the Level system for most games. By level 20 you could decide to have a picnic in the street and if a commoner tries to take revenge on you (because you just destroyed his town like the murder-hobo you are) and tries sneak up and attack. For some odd reason he was successful (this is an example, this particular situation probably would never happen) and stabs you in the head/slits your throat with a kitchen knife. But the kitchen knife deals 1d4~ damage and even on a crit deals 2d4. The commoner likely has no str mod. So even a level 4 character can survive it with minimal injury, but a level 20 wouldnt even feel it.

Hmm okay. This is much more specific and difficult than I thought. Sorry, I don't really think I personally know system where this can happen, because the point of most rpg system is character advancement. Even if you don't have character level or hp, usually your adventurer simply have advanced say his toughness or such, and the commoner haven't. The way I deal with this is usually just narrative or special/specific rules. So if say, a PC manages to sneak to a king's bedroom without any guard noticing or the king waking up and slit the king's throat, the king should just die, eventhough he's supposed to have 200 hp, except if he specifically make some preparation against it (steel throat cover? *shrugs*)

Maybe you could use a more narrative game like FATE I guess.

[Philistine]

You might look into Savage Worlds. It's a generic system, but it has roots in the horror genre which leaves even high-level heroes vulnerable to a few solid hits. And while it's not level-less... exactly... "levels" in Savage Worlds do work rather differently from what you're probably used to. And it runs fast and simple in play. Finally, there's a wide variety of official and fan-made supplements adapting the basic rules to all manner of different settings, from Weird West to space opera to classic swords & sorcery.

[runeghost]

In increasing order of complexity:

WaRP
FATE
GURPS


I've heard good things about Savage Worlds, and have played it once at a con, but can't really give much feedback beyond that.

If you can give us a little more info on what flavor of game you're aiming for that might help. For example, I think Feng Shui is a great system IF you want to run Wuxia action of any sort, but it would be poor for doing anything else. Eclipse Phase is a good postapocalyptic transuman horror game, but I wouldn't try to port it elsewhere.

[Kiero]

The only real problem with Stress in SotC is that they defaulted to ten stress for characters, which makes conflicts take Way Too Freakin' Long.

In later games, with sane amounts, Stress and Consequences do a pretty good job of managing conflict length, both in making one-shot takeouts rare as well as preventing "padded sumo" attrition-fests.

If only it were just the number of boxes. The "high water mark" method of Stress takes ages to resolve, and putting Consequences at the end just makes it a boring death spiral.

[kyoryu]

Why does it take ages to resolve?

"You took X stress. Fill in a box at that level or higher, or be taken out."

I mean, don't get me wrong. There's plenty of reasons to not choose Fate for a game. But resolving stress isn't one that I've really seen be problematic in any games I've run.

[Kiero]

Why does it take ages to resolve?

"You took X stress. Fill in a box at that level or higher, or be taken out."

I mean, don't get me wrong. There's plenty of reasons to not choose Fate for a game. But resolving stress isn't one that I've really seen be problematic in any games I've run.

I'm not saying don't try Fate. I'm saying don't waste your time with the oldest Fate game that has subsequently been improved a great deal by later edtions of the game.

Resolving Stress is something that will come up in each and every conflict, and can rapidly sour you on getting into conflicts, because the way it's done in SotC is so tedious.

[Thrawn4]

As a DM, I usually have enough work as it is and do not fancy studying a new system. I would recommend to use the system you are familiar with and establish some low-power houserules. E6 seems to serve this purpose, for example. The want for superpowers is usually a result of expectations and setting. If you can convey the feeling that in your setting a level 3 fighter is already very powerful, nobody is going to wait for level 20. Imagine Xena in Game of Thrones... untouchable one woman army while everybody else dies? Doesn't fit.

If that doesn't suit you, try Fudge (it's free).

[Philistine]

Of course, not all systems need years of study just to figure out how to make them work as intended. Some don't even need massive lists of house rules just to make them marginally functional.

[Bellberith]

I think we are going to try a Savage Worlds - Rippers game this weekend.

Would you guys allow it if a player wanted to play a Werewolf or some other type of monster in the Rippers setting? With basic player stats (so not as powerful).

Or do the weaknesses not cover the bonuses they give. I am clearly new to Savage Worlds so i do not know what i should say to this and i KNOW the question will pop up. I already am going to say no to the more powerful monsters in the book, such as demons, pumpkin jack, vampires, ect. But the Werewolves don't seem terribly powerful with their bonuses alone, along with a few other creatures that i could see being okay.

Edit: I would probably only allow 1 or 2 of them at most to do something like this if it is something that is deemed as appropriate for the setting. And i won't allow them to do any ripping of any sort, because technically they are 100% monster already. With the lethality of the setting, i think everyone should be able to get their chance should they want to at being one.

Edit 2: what do you guys think of an Edge that allows someone to use parry for firearms?

[Anonymouswizard]

I think we are going to try a Savage Worlds - Rippers game this weekend.

Would you guys allow it if a player wanted to play a Werewolf or some other type of monster in the Rippers setting? With basic player stats (so not as powerful).

Or do the weaknesses not cover the bonuses they give. I am clearly new to Savage Worlds so i do not know what i should say to this and i KNOW the question will pop up. I already am going to say no to the more powerful monsters in the book, such as demons, pumpkin jack, vampires, ect. But the Werewolves don't seem terribly powerful with their bonuses alone, along with a few other creatures that i could see being okay.

I'm not familiar with Rippers, but the first edition had guidelines for building balanced races. If you have access to them I suggest running the monsters past them.

Edit: I would probably only allow 1 or 2 of them at most to do something like this if it is something that is deemed as appropriate for the setting. And i won't allow them to do any ripping of any sort, because technically they are 100% monster already. With the lethality of the setting, i think everyone should be able to get their chance should they want to at being one.

Edit 2: what do you guys think of an Edge that allows someone to use parry for firearms?

Nope. The advantage of guns is that you shouldn't be near the opponent. If you want high parry you should raise your fighting, as otherwise fighting is useless in modern or future games.

[colm33]

No one seems to have heard of Crimson Exodus (publisher is Radical Approach).

It's low fantasy, level-less, and extremely lethal. Wounds are tracked individually and graded according to severity, and even if one survives a fight, they can still succumb to blood loss, shock or infection.

The system is not too complicated and easily modifiable, so you can ignore anything you don't like. I highly recommend checking it out.

There is also a setting neutral version called Fantasy Dice, but Crimson Exodus's setting is fairly light on details while offering a nice amount of flavour and races.

[ZenoForce88]

I personally have found Edge of the Empire, and All Flesh Must Be Eaten as good options.

While Edge of the Empire doesn't have a dodging, or blocking mechanic, that I know of, the dice mechanic does keep things quick, the entire group is involved at all times, and a single shot from a Blaster can be very deadly.

All Flesh Must Be Eaten is probably the most robust publishing of the Classic Unisystem(Not to be confused with Cinematic Unisystem like used in the Eden Studio's Buffy System), while written more towards zombies, it can easily be retooled into just about anything modern just by removing zombies and fluff. With the Universal nature of the system really coming to shine if you can get your hands on the supplement books. And if you get CJ Carrella's WitchCraft(which is free, I believe) there's the complete magic system right there, if you want to take a shot at it(I personally find it confusing).

[Bellberith]

Nope. The advantage of guns is that you shouldn't be near the opponent. If you want high parry you should raise your fighting, as otherwise fighting is useless in modern or future games.

I think there was a miscommunication on that last bit so ill reword it.

What do you think about an edge that allows for parry against firearms?

On a side note: I am still looking through all the options here, seems like there are a lot more games than i originally though that could be what i am looking for. If Savage Worlds doesn't pull through, then ill definitely try out some of these other ones.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think there was a miscommunication on that last bit so ill reword it.

What do you think about an edge that allows for parry against firearms?

That's significantly more reasonable. Agility d8+fighting/shooting d6 as the prerequisites, have it use your parry as the target number to hit you with guns, and I'd say you shouldn't even need to cap it.

But in all honesty, letting people just use their parry against firearms won't break the game (it'll favour the PCs slightly, as they'll generally have decent parry scores), and won't be seen as an edge tax

On a side note: I am still looking through all the options here, seems like there are a lot more games than i originally though that could be what i am looking for. If Savage Worlds doesn't pull through, then ill definitely try out some of these other ones.

Well, you gave a VERY generic set of criteria.