General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[DoctorFaust]

Anyone else watching KonoSuba, (AKA Kono Subarashii Sekai ni Shukufuku wo!, AKA God's blessing on this wounderful world? That's a lot of AKA.) I just finished the last season 1 episode.

It's a fantasy parody(Although more hewing to the console rpg/MMO crowd) so I thought it would be right up this forum's alley.

Yep, I was! I thought that, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8 out of the ten episodes were pretty great as far as character comedies go. And I'm very glad that it's getting a second season.

[Rodin]

Aaaaaand Erased is back in my good books again.

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The idea of him being recursively a 32 year old man inside a 6th grader's body now thinking he's a 6th grader inside a 32 year old man, while still having knowledge from "the future" which is now the present? That's such an amazing thing that you could do an entire series on it by itself.

I'm kinda sad that we're not going to get the time to explore the consequences of that. Still, it looks like we're set for our climax now, so I really can't wait to see who's out-gambitted who.

[kamikasei]

Aaaaaand Erased is back in my good books again.

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The idea of him being recursively a 32 year old man inside a 6th grader's body now thinking he's a 6th grader inside a 32 year old man, while still having knowledge from "the future" which is now the present? That's such an amazing thing that you could do an entire series on it by itself.

I'm kinda sad that we're not going to get the time to explore the consequences of that. Still, it looks like we're set for our climax now, so I really can't wait to see who's out-gambitted who.

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Unless I missed something, isn't he still in the past relative to his starting point? He jumped back 18 years, but was in the coma for 15, IIRC.

Anyway, yeah, that was unexpected. I'm curious whether it'll keep things like this, or whether he'll jump back to defeat Yashiro when he was 11 and cut off the coma timeline. I could see this being considered a sufficient personal price to pay to make the success of saving Kayo and the others feel earned, but it did also derail his mother's life and let the murderer continue to prey on children elsewhere. We'll see...

Oh, and I'm going to be annoyed if Satoru's committed the Standard Sin of this kind of situation: confronting the villain alone without taking measures to ensure what you know gets out if they kill you.

[Spacewolf]

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Unless I missed something, isn't he still in the past relative to his starting point? He jumped back 18 years, but was in the coma for 15, IIRC.

Anyway, yeah, that was unexpected. I'm curious whether it'll keep things like this, or whether he'll jump back to defeat Yashiro when he was 11 and cut off the coma timeline. I could see this being considered a sufficient personal price to pay to make the success of saving Kayo and the others feel earned, but it did also derail his mother's life and let the murderer continue to prey on children elsewhere. We'll see...

Oh, and I'm going to be annoyed if Satoru's committed the Standard Sin of this kind of situation: confronting the villain alone without taking measures to ensure what you know gets out if they kill you.

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I doubt it , that would mean erasing Kayo and Hiromis baby which doesn't seem like it will happen. I think it's more likely he will carry on then hook up with the Pizza girl.

Edit: Grimgar Spoilers

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These guys have some serious bad luck with stuff attacking them when they are resting. I'm still not sure about the setting though, something is obviously going on but it's hard to tell what. The weird skintight suits during the intro seem to suggest VR as does the moon, but why?

[Alent]

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Unless I missed something, isn't he still in the past relative to his starting point? He jumped back 18 years, but was in the coma for 15, IIRC.

Anyway, yeah, that was unexpected. I'm curious whether it'll keep things like this, or whether he'll jump back to defeat Yashiro when he was 11 and cut off the coma timeline. I could see this being considered a sufficient personal price to pay to make the success of saving Kayo and the others feel earned, but it did also derail his mother's life and let the murderer continue to prey on children elsewhere. We'll see...

Oh, and I'm going to be annoyed if Satoru's committed the Standard Sin of this kind of situation: confronting the villain alone without taking measures to ensure what you know gets out if they kill you.

We're off in Anime Original territory, so it's anyone's guess, but...

Spoiler: Part spoiler, part teaser

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There's a reason the Japanese title is "The town where only I am missing". The meaning really hits when you see the intro without Satoru after Yashiro gloats about how Satoru's "won peace for the town". Changing the localized title to "Erased" really robbed the impact of that moment.

Interestingly, in the manga, instead of Yashiro destroying the tabloid photographers' film, it was a younger Airi, and recognizing her causes Satoru to black out until 2008, so when the confrontation hits, the full 18 years have passed.

[kamikasei]

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I doubt it , that would mean erasing Kayo and Hiromis baby which doesn't seem like it will happen. I think it's more likely he will carry on then hook up with the Pizza girl.

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Logically, yes, but this feels like the kind of show where the timeline is robust against even fairly large changes. It could make the case that the current state of affairs is "good enough" and shouldn't be jeopardized, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Satoru were to go back again to fix things properly and Kayo and Hiromi still end up as a family. Unless you mean that a conscious Satoru trumps Hiromi in the shipping stakes...

P.s. the pizza girl is a little more than half his age, yeesh.

Norren: remind me to read whatever you said after the finale :P

[Spacewolf]

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Logically, yes, but this feels like the kind of show where the timeline is robust against even fairly large changes. It could make the case that the current state of affairs is "good enough" and shouldn't be jeopardized, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Satoru were to go back again to fix things properly and Kayo and Hiromi still end up as a family. Unless you mean that a conscious Satoru trumps Hiromi in the shipping stakes...

P.s. the pizza girl is a little more than half his age, yeesh.

Norren: remind me to read whatever you said after the finale :P

Really? I thought she was a last year 6th former and he was a Uni student age. So 18->20something

[kamikasei]

Really? I thought she was a last year 6th former and he was a Uni student age. So 18->20something

Nah, she's in high school (so maybe 18, I was exaggerating a bit), while he's 29. It's the kind of age gap (in anime rather than real life) where I'm fine with her having a crush and him thinking she's cute, but would be skeeved to hell and back if it became an actual relationship.

[Rodin]

Nah, she's in high school (so maybe 18, I was exaggerating a bit), while he's 29. It's the kind of age gap (in anime rather than real life) where I'm fine with her having a crush and him thinking she's cute, but would be skeeved to hell and back if it became an actual relationship.

The only relationship like that in anime which I can think of is Nana, where she hooked up with at least a couple men that were at least 10 years her senior. Then again, those relationships weren't exactly portrayed as healthy.

Oh wait...wasn't there a gender-flipped version in Rah Xephon thanks to time dilation shenanigans?

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I'm kind of a newbie to the whole 'anime' thing, but I've recently been taken with one called Puella Magi Madoka Magica. I'm aware that "magical girls" is sort of a genre, but I'm told PMMM is sort of a deconstruction of it. In the same way Twin Peaks can be called a "soap opera" or Evangelion can be called a "mech show". My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM? Because, gawrsh, I am having fun.

[Lethologica]

I'm kind of a newbie to the whole 'anime' thing, but I've recently been taken with one called Puella Magi Madoka Magica. I'm aware that "magical girls" is sort of a genre, but I'm told PMMM is sort of a deconstruction of it. In the same way Twin Peaks can be called a "soap opera" or Evangelion can be called a "mech show". My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM? Because, gawrsh, I am having fun.

Revolutionary Girl Utena is your best bet, as long as you're okay with a slow start. I don't know how deconstructive Princess Tutu is, but that's my other recommendation given your comment.

[BWR]

I'm kind of a newbie to the whole 'anime' thing, but I've recently been taken with one called Puella Magi Madoka Magica. I'm aware that "magical girls" is sort of a genre, but I'm told PMMM is sort of a deconstruction of it. In the same way Twin Peaks can be called a "soap opera" or Evangelion can be called a "mech show". My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM? Because, gawrsh, I am having fun.

If you like insanity at breakneck speed there is Puni Puni Poemy, a two-part spin-off from Excel Saga. It's not so much a deconstruction as an extreme parody of magical girl shows. It may help to have seen a number of them first to get most of the references but PPP was the first magical girl-related thing I ever saw and I had a blast with it. I just grew to like it more after becoming more familiar with the genre.

[endoperez]

I'm kind of a newbie to the whole 'anime' thing, but I've recently been taken with one called Puella Magi Madoka Magica. I'm aware that "magical girls" is sort of a genre, but I'm told PMMM is sort of a deconstruction of it. In the same way Twin Peaks can be called a "soap opera" or Evangelion can be called a "mech show". My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM? Because, gawrsh, I am having fun.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha mostly plays it straight, but might still be interesting. It, especially the first season, plays straight most of the things PMMM deconstructs, which could be interesting to see. With just 13 or so episodes in 1st season, it might be worth watching for that.

And there's a bit of a genre shift happening in the show between seasons. If the names were accurate, it'd be:

S1: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
S2 (A's): Magical Warrior Lyrical Nanoha
S3 (StrikerS): Military Combat Instructor Nanoha After Timeskip
S4 (ViVid): Some Kids Fight In A Tournament!

S3 is more of a military fiction, really. Military fiction for kids, granted, but still.

[tensai_oni]

It's not deconstruction that makes Madoka good though just like how it's not deconstruction that makes Evangelion good. So the question here should be "what other magical girl shows I can watch and enjoy without feeling weird for liking a little girls' series?"

[Morph Bark]

I'm kind of a newbie to the whole 'anime' thing, but I've recently been taken with one called Puella Magi Madoka Magica. I'm aware that "magical girls" is sort of a genre, but I'm told PMMM is sort of a deconstruction of it. In the same way Twin Peaks can be called a "soap opera" or Evangelion can be called a "mech show". My question is, are there any other 'magical girl' deconstructions on par with PMMM? Because, gawrsh, I am having fun.

From what I've heard of it: Yuki Yuna is a Hero.

[Sallera]

From what I've heard of it: Yuki Yuna is a Hero.

Just what I was going to recommend. In terms of tone and theme, you'll probably see a lot of similarities, but it's an excellent show in its own right.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Revolutionary Girl Utena is your best bet, as long as you're okay with a slow start. I don't know how deconstructive Princess Tutu is, but that's my other recommendation given your comment.

I've heard that name thrown about. Thanks, I'll look it up.

If you like insanity at breakneck speed there is Puni Puni Poemy, a two-part spin-off from Excel Saga. It's not so much a deconstruction as an extreme parody of magical girl shows. It may help to have seen a number of them first to get most of the references but PPP was the first magical girl-related thing I ever saw and I had a blast with it. I just grew to like it more after becoming more familiar with the genre.

Is Excel Saga considered a legitimate anime? I had no idea. I figured that was like considering Airplane! a legitimate disaster film or Monty Python's Holy Grail a legitimate fantasy epic.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha mostly plays it straight, but might still be interesting. It, especially the first season, plays straight most of the things PMMM deconstructs, which could be interesting to see. With just 13 or so episodes in 1st season, it might be worth watching for that.

And there's a bit of a genre shift happening in the show between seasons. If the names were accurate, it'd be:

S1: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
S2 (A's): Magical Warrior Lyrical Nanoha
S3 (StrikerS): Military Combat Instructor Nanoha After Timeskip
S4 (ViVid): Some Kids Fight In A Tournament!

S3 is more of a military fiction, really. Military fiction for kids, granted, but still.

I get gradually less interested in each one of those, I gotta admit.

From what I've heard of it: Yuki Yuna is a Hero.

Just what I was going to recommend. In terms of tone and theme, you'll probably see a lot of similarities, but it's an excellent show in its own right.

Never heard of it. Googling now. Thanks.

It's not deconstruction that makes Madoka good though just like how it's not deconstruction that makes Evangelion good.

Speak for yourself. The aspects of both I like are symptoms of their alternative nature.

So the question here should be "what other magical girl shows I can watch and enjoy without feeling weird for liking a little girls' series?"

No, I still feel pretty weird about liking PMMM. That part I'm just going to have to live with.

[endoperez]

Is Excel Saga considered a legitimate anime? I had no idea. I figured that was like considering Airplane! a legitimate disaster film or Monty Python's Holy Grail a legitimate fantasy epic.

Anime is a medium with some local flavour & style, like a Hollywood film, not genre, like a disaster film or a fantasy epic. So it is like Airplane!, but also an anime.

I get gradually less interested in each one of those, I gotta admit.

I was most interested in the third season, personally, but different tastes and all that.

[Drascin]

Is Excel Saga considered a legitimate anime? I had no idea. I figured that was like considering Airplane! a legitimate disaster film or Monty Python's Holy Grail a legitimate fantasy epic.

Excel Saga is a legitimate anime in the same way Airplane is a legitimate film. No, it's not serious, because it's a comedy anime, but all "anime" means is that it's animated, much like all "movie" means is that it's a feature film of some kind.

Excel Saga is brutally over the top, though. It doesn't just enjoy the ridiculousness, it thrives on it. If that sounds appealing, by all means, do watch it.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Excel Saga is a legitimate anime in the same way Airplane is a legitimate film. No, it's not serious, because it's a comedy anime, but all "anime" means is that it's animated, much like all "movie" means is that it's a feature film of some kind.

That's fair

Excel Saga is brutally over the top, though. It doesn't just enjoy the ridiculousness, it thrives on it. If that sounds appealing, by all means, do watch it.

I've already seen it, actually. Thanks, though.

[DoctorFaust]

Never heard of it. Googling now. Thanks.

I'm not entirely sure of how much you'll like YuYuYu if you enjoyed Madoka because it was a deconstruction of the regular Mahou Shoujo tropes. They both share a theme of power at a cost, but without getting too deep into spoiler territory, Yuki Yuna veers very far back into what I think is standard territory at the end. Some, myself included, feel like that took away from the story because of how they did it.

[ImperatorV]

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha mostly plays it straight, but might still be interesting. It, especially the first season, plays straight most of the things PMMM deconstructs, which could be interesting to see. With just 13 or so episodes in 1st season, it might be worth watching for that.

And there's a bit of a genre shift happening in the show between seasons. If the names were accurate, it'd be:

S1: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
S2 (A's): Magical Warrior Lyrical Nanoha
S3 (StrikerS): Military Combat Instructor Nanoha After Timeskip
S4 (ViVid): Some Kids Fight In A Tournament!

S3 is more of a military fiction, really. Military fiction for kids, granted, but still.

This is not the most precise representation of Nanoha. As a die-hard fan I feel compelled to provide more detail.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (the original series) was the first magical girl show targeted entirely at adults, and can be considered the precursor to all serious magical girl anime (I believe one of the major creators of Madoka worked on the nanoha franchise first, didn't have time to fact-check because I have class. The two series certainly share a lot of voice actresses anyway). The show does play most magical girl tropes straight, but provides more serious explanations for some and does away with several conventions of the genre (there are adult and male magic users, not to mention the interdimensional military organization dedicated to preventing the abuse of magic artifacts). Overall, the first season is very rough in places, and has several less-then-endearing quirks, but is worth looking into as a magical girl show that is not for little girls. The first few episodes are a slog though.

The second season is similar to the first, but much more polished and with an amazing set of new anti-villains. The protagonists also end up working in more detail with the aforementioned interdimensional military organization and get snazzy technological upgrades from them - this is a precursor to the more sci-fi elements of the third season.

The third season is twice the length of the previous two, which it needs because it adds a bunch of secondary protagonists in addition to the already extensive cast (who are now all young adults after a ten year time skip). The series has a dual focus of the original cast (now elite mages virtually unmatched by anyone in their universe) and their proteges. Also a lot more sci-fi stuff and many of the magical girl tropes are abandoned entirely, leading many people to consider it as no longer belonging to the magical girl genre. This season suffers a little from trying to do too much at once but if you liked the first two seasons you'll like this one.

The so called "fourth season" is not a sequel. It is a spin-off with the same name. The characters from the first two seasons are now side characters. The secondary protagonists of the third season... Are also side characters. The protagonists of this season are either minor characters introduced halfway through the third season or later, and entirely new people. Like I said, it's a spin-off. It does return the more standard magical girl elements and cuts back/cuts out the sci-fi and military drama, however, so some people like it for that.

EDIT: Wow I went crazy with that. Maybe too much detail? Bluh.

[Sallera]

I'm not entirely sure of how much you'll like YuYuYu if you enjoyed Madoka because it was a deconstruction of the regular Mahou Shoujo tropes. They both share a theme of power at a cost, but without getting too deep into spoiler territory, Yuki Yuna veers very far back into what I think is standard territory at the end. Some, myself included, feel like that took away from the story because of how they did it.

I don't know how to respond to that without spoiling both shows, so...

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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What did you see as the main difference there? Yuuna's sacrifice was perhaps more comparable to Homura's than Madoka's, given that she at least got to stay on in the world, but thematically I found them pretty similar.

[tensai_oni]

Speak for yourself. The aspects of both I like are symptoms of their alternative nature.

Okay I'm not trying to pick a fight here but:

Deconstruction means playing around with established tropes and conventions of the genre, see what makes them tick or if they fall apart under scrutiny. You said it yourself that you're pretty new to anime - so you don't know what these conventions are, and how these shows work with them.

And if you mean that this is because Madoka and Evangelion are dark, serious and introspective/cerebral - you need to know, there were serious and introspective magical girl shows before Madoka. There were serious and introspective mecha shows before Evangelion.

It's not those things that make the two shows deconstructive. People who aren't fans of the genre wouldn't even notice Madoka is a deconstruction unless someone told them. But here's the thing, even if you don't notice that, Madoka is still a very good show. One of my personal alltime favorites.

It's not the deconstruction that makes it strong. A show's quality doesn't depend on whether it plays with tropes or plays them straight. And in some ways, the most important magical girl tropes and conventions are played 100% straight in Madoka.

[DoctorFaust]

I don't know how to respond to that without spoiling both shows, so...

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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What did you see as the main difference there? Yuuna's sacrifice was perhaps more comparable to Homura's than Madoka's, given that she at least got to stay on in the world, but thematically I found them pretty similar.

Spoiler: YuYuYu/Madoka

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The unexplained recovery from the effects of Sange. Just suddenly, right at the end, they completely remove the cost of their powers and the consequences of their actions. It would've been like if Madoka's wish, instead of changing the cycle and removing her from existence as a human, keeping the story a hopeful but fundamentally tragic one, had set up the world like Homura's labyrinth in Rebellion.

[HMS Invincible]

It's been a while since a new magical girl franchise was announced. It's all sequels or too young oriented which is a shame. Maybe the K- something Pandora show. It has magical girl elements but it's really a ghost in the shell prequel.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Okay I'm not trying to pick a fight here but:

So that's a 'no' on the recommendations then, huh?

[Mx.Silver]

Is Excel Saga considered a legitimate anime? I had no idea.

Essentially, if it's Japanese and animated, it's an anime. That's about all there is to it - although given that the most well-known anime works tend to be drawn from a small range of specific genres that fact isn't as obvious as it perhaps should be.

'Magical Girl' isn't really a genre I tend towards much, so I can't give many recommendations on that front, I'm afraid. If you're interested in more general stuff of a specific tone or style I could probably be of more use.

Okay I'm not trying to pick a fight here

In that case I'd suggest not immediately following-up this statement by picking a fight over semantics

[endoperez]

This is not the most precise representation of Nanoha. As a die-hard fan I feel compelled to provide more detail.

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (the original series) was the first magical girl show targeted entirely at adults, and can be considered the precursor to all serious magical girl anime (I believe one of the major creators of Madoka worked on the nanoha franchise first, didn't have time to fact-check because I have class.

Thanks for the additional detail. I want more tho! Just watched most of if the past weekend. And I've watched the awesome part where Nanoha "befriends" Quattro like a dozen times. :D

I wouldn't be surprised if Madoka and Nanoha shared a lot of the creative crew. Nanoha's first season had clear parallels to Madoka's show. While much of PMMM is playing with magical girl genre in general, in some parts, it's spoofing Nanoha specifically.

I'm a fan of a specific ship and many of the characters and moments in Nanoha, even if the series as a whole isn't one of my favourites. I just finished S3 and looked a bit into the S4. It does seem a bit too much like a spin-off. Is there anything else?
Are the movies worth checking out? I understand they rehash the same thing with better animation, which, admittedly, is very intriguing... all those fancy spell effects, oh my.

What about the manga? How much extra stuff is there? The Force one seems unliked.

[Prime32]

Senki Zesshou Symphogear is another seinen magical girl series, with three seasons so far (the original, G and GX).

It starts off looking Madoka-ish, but soon shifts to become more like Nanoha StrikerS. It's notable for having the VAs of Madoka and Fate in leading roles, and also for the characters wearing armor powered by singing. I don't know if the idea of "Madoka slowly grows into a ridiculously hot-blooded hero who punches destiny in the face, accompanied by Nana Mizuki insert songs" sounds appealing to you, but it was enough to sell me on it. It might have been an influence on Yuuki Yuuna, too.

Here, let me just link the chart.

EDIT:

I'm a fan of a specific ship and many of the characters and moments in Nanoha, even if the series as a whole isn't one of my favourites. I just finished S3 and looked a bit into the S4. It does seem a bit too much like a spin-off. Is there anything else?

There's the Sound Stages. Sound Stage X is a complete storyline which takes place between StrikerS and ViVid, and ViVid references some of the events in it.

Are the movies worth checking out? I understand they rehash the same thing with better animation, which, admittedly, is very intriguing... all those fancy spell effects, oh my.

The movies are in-universe propaganda films produced by the TSAB, with story elements altered to represent them in a better light. You can even tell that Fate requested they make her mother look less evil - it's all pretty weird.