League of Legends LXV: What threads are mine to make, little Lamb? All, dear Wolf.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I guess it depends on what you want to do with your Keystone mastery, the sustain on warlord's bloodlust is pretty significant even when you are not critting that much (granted this is anecdotal evidence based on a few Lucian/Trist games). The main issue with Fervor of Battle is that it takes a little while to ramp up on any champion not named Kog'maw, which might skew things on WB's favour.

[Nadevoc]

I figure that particularly with a lot of longer ranged ADCs (Jinx, Cait, etc) you should be able to enter a lot of fights with it pre-charged at least to some degree. And on champions like Yi who get free autos, I really like on-hit effects like that.

But yes, Fervor of Battle might end up often not reaching its peak a lot of times. Time will tell how good it is.

[Olinser]

Don't forget the global passive gold increase, or the +2/s for the two poorest members of the team.

Uhm, you're off by a factor of 5 there. It's not +2/s. It's +2 per FIVE seconds. And it only kicks in after 12 minutes (then only goes up 0.1/5s per minute). For supports it's nice, for junglers it's a huge early and mid game gold nerf.

Everybody gets 0.7 gold per 5. And only AFTER 12 minutes, do the 2 poorest get 0.4 gold per second (2 gold per 5). Even after 12 minutes that's a paltry 2.7 gold per 5. That doesn't even come close to making up for the +30 per camp until significantly late into the game.

They did add a small amount of gold to each camp (7 for buffs, 4 for raptors, 15 for wolves, 6 for krug/gromp), but those don't even make up for the base +15 on machete, never mind the +30. A red side clear now gives you 73 less gold, blue side 46 less gold, full clear total of 119 less.

So pre 12 minutes junglers are massively losing out, and even after 12 anybody farming worth beans would have gotten more gold under the old system until around 30+ minutes, when they finally start to get the same amount of gold they should have been getting. And that's not even calculating in the significantly reduced gold from assists.

Junglers are getting significantly less early gold than they were, and laners are now getting MORE gold early. Which, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's definitely crushing item-dependent junglers, and is going to cause LARGE gaps between junglers and laners after just a few minutes. Which I don't quite understand - Riot seems to want to make ADCs much more impactful, but gold nerfing junglers doesn't seem to really fit into that.

[shadow_archmagi]

Uhm, you're off by a factor of 5 there. It's not +2/s. It's +2 per FIVE seconds. And it only kicks in after 12 minutes (then only goes up 0.1/5s per minute). For supports it's nice, for junglers it's a huge early and mid game gold nerf.

Everybody gets 0.7 gold per 5.

Uh, what?

Quoth the update notes:

Ambient Gold

With items costing more as part of our global efficiency pass, we're injecting more cash into the flow, as well as a little extra for the down-and-out.

FOR DOING NOTHING, YOU GET 9.5 gold per 5 seconds ⇒ 10.2 gold per 5 seconds
BAILOUT After 12 minutes, the 2 members of each team with the least gold at any given moment gain an additional 2 gold per 5 seconds (increasing by 0.1 per minute)

It actually *is* about +2/s. You're off by a factor of ten, mate. In response to how the overall math works out, I have to say that I've been playing a lot of jungle lately and haven't noticed a big drop. If anything, I feel like I'm hitting my core items earlier.

EDIT: Upon actually reviewing match history, yeah, I usually buy cinderhulk somewhere between 9 and 11 minutes, and that's stayed post-patch. Definitely not an issue.

[Farix]

Spoiler: This update is the best

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This is without Drag 3, Dead Man's etc., or any speed boost from other champs. By comparison I got a TF, Swifties, Dead Man's, E'd Hecarim up to 1130 MS.

[Olinser]

Uh, what?

Quoth the update notes:



It actually *is* about +2/s. You're off by a factor of ten, mate. In response to how the overall math works out, I have to say that I've been playing a lot of jungle lately and haven't noticed a big drop. If anything, I feel like I'm hitting my core items earlier.

EDIT: Upon actually reviewing match history, yeah, I usually buy cinderhulk somewhere between 9 and 11 minutes, and that's stayed post-patch. Definitely not an issue.

Huh?

You just quoted numbers that prove me right. Going from 9.5 to 10.2 is an increase of 0.7 gold per 5.

Then you quote 2 gold per 5 seconds after 12 minutes.

So you get 0.7 gold per 5 for the first 12 minutes instead of getting +15 and +30 gold per monster kill, then are only getting 2 gold per 5.

Are you not understanding that you already had 9.5 per 5 before this patch?

[Mabn]

so is rapid firecannon a ranged only item? Or is Volibear in magical Christmas land?

[Olinser]

so is rapid firecannon a ranged only item? Or is Volibear in magical Christmas land?

It's not ranged only, but it's only a 35% range increase. On a melee champion that's not very much, especially considering the poor Volibear stats the rest of the item has.

Now if it affects the range of Rengar's bush leap that could be a serious problem.

[shadow_archmagi]

Huh?

You just quoted numbers that prove me right. Going from 9.5 to 10.2 is an increase of 0.7 gold per 5.

Then you quote 2 gold per 5 seconds after 12 minutes.

So you get 0.7 gold per 5 for the first 12 minutes instead of getting +15 and +30 gold per monster kill, then are only getting 2 gold per 5.

Are you not understanding that you already had 9.5 per 5 before this patch?

Ah, sorry. The way you said "Everyone gets 0.7" made it sound like you were implying that .7 was the global income, rather than the recent change to global income. Continue.

But yeah I haven't really seen any issues with jungle in recent games. In fact, they tend not to be in the bottom two for gold.

On an unrelated note, Tahm's resistance against all-in champs is hilariously rage-inducing when they can't figure out how to play around not going full aggro. Seeing Fiora and Riven cry is just great. More things need to make Rivens cry. I just played a game against a Rengar who declared this the worst patch ever because of overpowered Tahm. Love it.

[Artanis]

I've never had that many issues when facing Tahm*, probably due to my playstyle being the exact opposite of the thing he's good against. His kit can seriously mess up somebody who jumps forward to blow people up, but does very little to stop somebody from whittling enemies down from waaaaaay over there




*Admittedly, I haven't played against him all that much, and I ALSO haven't played since before the Worlds bracket stages due to traveling and the release of Legacy of the Void**

**Starring my namesake

[Dienekes]

So after playing for a couple days, my initial thoughts about the new stuff.

Spoiler

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Really miss my mana pots. Corrupting Potion is a poor substitute.

Talking with a buddy of mine who plays jungle a lot, he definitely feels confused on what he's supposed to be doing. With less gold in jungle he is having difficulty getting the higher cost jungle items, and always feels behind. But on the plus side, I don't have to deal with sated devour until much later, which I like.

The Rift Herald is weird. I'm seeing a lot of strange strategies like marksman/support starting out going top to dominate that lane before grabbing the herald buff early with jungler help and then heading back down to get dragon control. When that doesn't happen the jungler more or less hovers around top lane to make plays and secure that buff as it's very good. It definitely changes up the way top plays.

I hate it. The reason why I play top is because it's historically been an island. You're facing one guy, mano a mano. Sure the jungler does come to gank, but it tends to be less so than in the other lanes so that he maintains dragon control. I like facing off against one opponent and seeing who is the better laner. And if I'm beating my opponent so bad that the enemy jungler starts camping top, I know that my jungler can capitalize on that by controlling mid lane and bottom and, importantly, dragon. In short, I really just want to be left alone on top, and this destroys that. I'm sure most other more fluid players will like it more.

However, it's not all bad news. The game has created my new favorite mini-game. It's called, Let's See How Many Bullets I Can Make Graves Shoot. Here's how you play, first, select Graves. Then buy Inifinty Edge and Runaan's Hurricane. Enjoy shooting 6 or 12 bullets every auto-attack. Is this the best build for him? Probably not, but it's hilarious.

As an aside, Graves may be a little too strong at the moment. I'm a completely terrible adc, but I've been winning with him. Also, his Q does more damage than his ult. Just, for the record.

My initial misgivings about the minion changes I'm putting aside. Possibly, because I've been playing more Graves and less Pantheon I haven't had a reason to do the from behind split-pushing thing. But in any case, I haven't yet noticed a huge difference coming from the minions.

Ward changes. Love them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There was a bug with the minions and the change was pushed back to patch 5.23, I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Edit: Found it!

[Dienekes]

There was a bug with the minions and the change was pushed back to patch 5.23, I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Edit: Found it!

Well, that explains that one then.

[copel99]

The minions change along with the keystones might have been a bit to much for everyone to handle in the update anyway. People need to get used to the rework of the adc and masteries in general but graves and tristana are looking super brutal with it. Cait and Quinn are quite passable and I still have no idea about corki. If kogmaw is defended for 1-2 seconds in a late game fight it is over and super scary, probably too OP in a team comp built around him.

I do like the changes to the masteries personally but there are some people who do not, my biggest gripe was I had 20 mastery pages and they all went blank, I now have 6 pages filled again. The choices are more flavorful and fit certain playstyles better but other people will not see it as super customization but a bother that makes their character worse.

Anyway good job Rito! Cheers!

[Qwertystop]

Patch notes are wrong on Kog's W, by the way - they say it reduces his damage by 55%, but his in-game tooltip says he deals 55% damage (a 10% swing). Checking it against a tower (so percent-of-health didn't interfere), the in-game tooltip was right.

[Recaiden]

Corki is wonderful. The magic damage numbers are really satisfying and The Package is great fun. Draven-like burst, mobility, poke...it's a great little airplane. And best of all, No Last Whisper.

[shadow_archmagi]

Graves is absurdly silly. If I weren't completely confident that I'll like Cait more, I'd buy him based on this free week.

[Ashen Lilies]

Corki is wonderful. The magic damage numbers are really satisfying and The Package is great fun. Draven-like burst, mobility, poke...it's a great little airplane. And best of all, No Last Whisper.

In general, teamcomps have been squishy enough in the games I've played (and the games over quickly enough) that I've never felt the need for a Last Whisper anyway. :P

But yes, Corki is amazing.

I recently played a game with IE/Firecannon/Shiv Draven, which, after a ****ty beginning due to attempting to play Draven at 300 average ping (**** my school) ended up being hilarious. Axes from god flying out at 700 range to suddenly take away half of some poor sap's healthbar will never be not funny, especially if it lands me a surprise killsteal.

[Eldariel]

Spoiler: Kespa Cup

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So SKT just got 2-0'd today by Ever. Post-Worlds curse strikes again; SKT no-shows for S6? Also, holy hell those games. Particularly the G2 turnaround, such an insane sequence of events: Bard OP.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This is a question for people with more experience on gangplank than me, what do you think of going TF+Essence Reaver as his core items? Good amount of AD, decent crit chance (40%), 40% CDR and assorted stats, none of which is truly wasted.

[mrcarter11]

Spoiler: Kespa Cup

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So SKT just got 2-0'd today by Ever. Post-Worlds curse strikes again; SKT no-shows for S6? Also, holy hell those games. Particularly the G2 turnaround, such an insane sequence of events: Bard OP.

Spoiler

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bad first showing for scout sadly. On the other hand, I'm not drawing any conclusions from it. Skt t1 dropped a series to blue right after worlds then won winter undefeated. They then sadly lost pooh and suffered for it. And to be fair to them, they probably aren't practicing anywhere near as much as they were. This is their break, let's judge them from lck spring.

Not to say Ever didn't play well, they certainly did. And they've looked good thus far against most teams. Hope to see them in the lck.

[Olinser]

This is a question for people with more experience on gangplank than me, what do you think of going TF+Essence Reaver as his core items? Good amount of AD, decent crit chance (40%), 40% CDR and assorted stats, none of which is truly wasted.

Triforce into IE was the previous 'standard' Gangplank start (both highest win AND most frequent), and I don't really see anything to change that, the +50% critical strike damage is still more valuable 2nd item than CDR.

Essence Reaver might replace Last Whisper in the build, though.

[McDouggal]

So, interesting theorycrafting on IE and why you shouldn't rush it: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...infinity_edge/

Also, PINK TARIC IS ON SALE. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. white text

[TechnOkami]

Also, PINK TARIC IS ON SALE. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. white text

No it's not. I already own Pink Taric. Kappa

[Olinser]

Well sometimes I both love and hate being right.

After a few days to aggregate the data, Kog'Maw's win rate has not only dropped, he is now the single lowest win rate in the game, with a sub-40% win rate in plat+ play.

Meanwhile Graves appears to be top dog by a wide margin in ADC, and MF actually up all the way to #2. Lucian also appears to have benefited a bit, but other than that the top ADCs are pretty much the same with Tristana, Jinx, Ashe, Kalista, Draven the only above 50% win rates. Quinn doesn't seem to be performing well in either top or ADC roles, although admittedly she is doing better top than she was before.

Interestingly, top lane tanks seem to have skyrocketed in win rate - probably the 'steal 3% max health every 4 seconds', which on a full tank is quite a lot of HP, or the '8% damage reduction around you' helping to keep squishies safe.

Also, unfortunately for the meta and team builder, Tryndamere has absolutely skyrocketed in both ban and win rate. Stand by for a nerf.

We'll have to see how it evolves from here, but in general it looks like heavy tanks have risen in value in top lane, most ADCs have stayed relatively static with a couple big rises/drops and a lot of the dive assassins have plummeted.

[One Step Two]

Also, unfortunately for the meta and team builder, Tryndamere has absolutely skyrocketed in both ban and win rate. Stand by for a nerf.

Just a quick mention: Riot has stated that Warlords Bloodlust, which is currently making Tryndamere (and Yasuo) pretty oppressive will be re-worked so that the life-gain on-crit will only trigger vs champions. This should normalise his pick/ban rate.

[Mabn]

oddly enough the times I've played or seen kog after rework he's been really strong. Crit is terrible on him, but boots, rageblade, and 4 on hit items definitely has him able to damage things. His double attack speed mode doing full damage to minions also makes farming with him better (my farming is an embarrassment no practice has aided). Is the discrepency just shorter games and better ganks in competent play levels?

[Olinser]

oddly enough the times I've played or seen kog after rework he's been really strong. Crit is terrible on him, but boots, rageblade, and 4 on hit items definitely has him able to damage things. His double attack speed mode doing full damage to minions also makes farming with him better (my farming is an embarrassment no practice has aided). Is the discrepency just shorter games and better ganks in competent play levels?

He is the single lowest win rate in the game, there is not a single ADC he has above a 46% win rate against, and only 6 against which he is above 40%. His biggest has always been that highly immobile with only a single slow for peel. However with his huge range upgrade he's done decently well in the past, and his R gave pretty respectable poke for an ADC and could be used to trigger Triforce to both give him a big 1 item power spike and to finish off kills.

Now, however, due to the huge damage nerf at high health, an ADC poking with R is going to be doing laughable damage and unless he springs for Tear he can only fire 1 or 2 shots before having to wait 10 seconds for his mana cost to lower.

In addition, because the time between his attacks is now so low, he can get very little movement in between attacks without sacrificing damage with his W up.

The change to his W and R has made his early game even WEAKER and ripe for exploitation (games less than 25 minutes he has an unbelievable 30% win rate). His win rate slowly rises as time goes by, but it isn't until 45+ minutes that he even recovers to 49% win rate.

In short, his early game is so unbelievably bad that everybody exploits it for all they're worth, and there isn't a single lane against which he actually wins 2v2 barring oddball combinations. Jungler showing up bot lane is going to get multiple kills for the enemy ADC, and then the rest of the team just has to try and stop the bleeding.

Previously 'protect the Kog' comps could function decently well, but now the payoff just isn't even worth it with champs like Tristana more mobile and able to do comparable damage.

[Anarion]

I've played one game on new Kog'maw so far with a mumble group. I went, I think, 0-3 in lane. Maybe 0-4? It was a pretty miserable experience. We won the game though and by the end of it, I was doing the majority of damage to 3-4 enemy team members each fight. But it took a lot of stalling from Yacob playing his midlane Lux.

[Dienekes]

Our of curiosity, Olinser, where do you get all this information, I'd be interested in having a look. I know you can find some information on champion.gg, but other than the winrate by patch section, I don't know how the numbers carry over from one patch to the next. So that cumulative winrate by time section could either be very accurate for a single patch or gathered over a few months to be less useful.

That and champion.gg only gives information on players of a level far higher than myself anyway, so it's a less beneficial view on the state of LoL for me, since there tends to be a lot of discrepancy between high level ranked and a guy who has lost every single attempt at jungling he's ever done.